Mazdaspeed3 wins C&D's latest sport compact comparo

[Eye of the Tiger]

V-6 Camries are faster than all of those cars

[S204STi]

A lot of the competition was pretty well equipped (the GTI rang in at over $29K as tested) while the TR is the stripper model of WRX, so it got hurt in that area.? The all season tires put a damper on handling and made it "uncommunicative" in the zig-zags.? Powertrain flexibility was rated poorly as well.? This is pretty evident by the difference in the WRX's 0-60 and 5-60 acceleration times.? All of the other competitors only had a 0.4-0.6 second difference between the standing start and the rolling start while the Subie had a 1.2 second difference.? Its top gear acceleration performance was also at the back of the pack.

Yep, it is very easy to find youself out of the powerband with the WRX, and if you bog the launch you're in trouble too.

[TBR]

The scoob just didn't go stop or turn as well as the newcomers.  It is a 7year-old platform on allseasons, so no big surprise.  It was not totally embarrassed however.

All the other cars had summer tires.

[the Teuton]

Impreza:

Highs
Serious power, tenacious grip in the cool whip, utterly without pretense or peacockery

Lows
Thrumming engine, junky slam of the doors, cheesy visors, short on driver legroom

The Verdict
A senior citizen with the legs to run with the young 'uns

Thrumming engine--it's called a boxer, get used to it.
Junky slam of the doors--my car has the same issue.  This is nothing new.  They're whining.
Cheesy visors--mine are covered in vinyl, for reference.  It's the TR edition, what are they going to expect?
Driver legroom--I'll give them that, but I wouldn't care.  Being 5'7" has it's advantages.

[afty]

What did they say about the Mini?

[the Teuton]

What did they say about the Mini?

Mini:

Highs
Exuberant interior design, instant turbo torque, EZ-to-grab door pulls

Lows
Twitchy in the twisties, hyperactive stability control, goofy knobs and switches.

Verdict
Cute to the bone, cute till it hurts, cute rather than sweet

It looks like the Beetle's "cute" replacement has been found to me.

[MX793]

Mini

Highs:
Exuberant interior design
Instant turbo torque
EZ-to-grab door pulls

Lows:
Twitchy in the twisties
Hyperactive stability control
Goofy knobs and switches

Verdict:
Cute to the bone
Cute till it hurts
Cute rather than sweet


Apparently the Mini was scary twitchy in the twisties and the stability control, when engaged, had really low limits before it stepped in and didn't allow for much fun. 

They also complained that the HVAC control knobs seemed like they came from playskool.  The brakes were a bit too abrupt, the ride was described as "nasty", and the steering was "darty".

[Raza]

From what I'm reading, the new Mini doesn't have the magic of the old new one. 

[Tave]

I think a better question is why wouldn't the WRX have all-seasons? It's a rally-bred car, made to go on all types of surfaces, in all types of weathers. I'd be dissapointed if they threw something on there that couldn't handle the dirt or snow.

[MX793]

I think a better question is why wouldn't the WRX have all-seasons? It's a rally-bred car, made to go on all types of surfaces, in all types of weathers. I'd be dissapointed if they threw something on there that couldn't handle the dirt or snow.

IIRC, the STI comes with summer performance tires and that one is the most rally bred of the Subaru line.

[Tave]

IIRC, the STI comes with summer performance tires and that one is the most rally bred of the Subaru line.

Well I wouldn't want them on there, but I also wouldn't want to be driving an STI around in the snow and dirt anyway.

I guess Subaru realizes people who buy them are (for the most part) going to stick to the concrete.

[Rich]

Mini

Highs:
Exuberant interior design
Instant turbo torque
EZ-to-grab door pulls

Lows:
Twitchy in the twisties
Hyperactive stability control
Goofy knobs and switches

Verdict:
Cute to the bone
Cute till it hurts
Cute rather than sweet


Apparently the Mini was scary twitchy in the twisties and the stability control, when engaged, had really low limits before it stepped in and didn't allow for much fun. 

They also complained that the HVAC control knobs seemed like they came from playskool.  The brakes were a bit too abrupt, the ride was described as "nasty", and the steering was "darty".

Pansies.

I wouldn't buy the new one, but I respect it (I got the better model  ).  I've driven it and it isn't scary twitchy.  The brakes are not too abrubt, they just work very well.  The ride is too smooth for my tastes.  The steering is not darty, just quick.  These numbskulls don't know how to have fun in a quick reacting car anymore.  I think Buick should build a "hot" hatch just so C&D doesn't have anything to complain about and can pick a winner

[MX793]

Pansies.

I wouldn't buy the new one, but I respect it (I got the better model  ).  I've driven it and it isn't scary twitchy.  The brakes are not too abrubt, they just work very well.  The ride is too smooth for my tastes.  The steering is not darty, just quick.  These numbskulls don't know how to have fun in a quick reacting car anymore.  I think Buick should build a "hot" hatch just so C&D doesn't have anything to complain about and can pick a winner

"The quickness of the controls is fun right up to when it's not.  Out in the twisties the mood turns edgy, particularly when the road lurches up and down.  The too-sudden brakes pitch the tail up, the steering bites ravenously into the turns, the suspension abruptly unloads a corner, and the path gets uh-oh"

Sounds like the chassis gets easily upset when you throw the 3rd dimension of rolling hills in with the twisties.  Probably great on relatively flat ground, though.

[Eye of the Tiger]

"The quickness of the controls is fun right up to when it's not.? Out in the twisties the mood turns edgy, particularly when the road lurches up and down.? The too-sudden brakes pitch the tail up, the steering bites ravenously into the turns, the suspension abruptly unloads a corner, and the path gets uh-oh"

Sounds like the chassis gets easily upset when you throw the 3rd dimension of rolling hills in with the twisties.? Probably great on relatively flat ground, though.

That Mini sounds perfect, I love to upset chassis on twisty rolling hills. The Focus loved that stuff... the rear end would skip out in a downhill turn, and I'd countersteer just a bit and give it some gas to straighten the line, then as the hill crests, the front tires loose their grip and I let off to give them a chance, then they catch once the rear end comes over the top... oh what fun it was. It's too bad Esteems seem a little less eager to participate in my antics... 

[Raza]

Well I wouldn't want them on there, but I also wouldn't want to be driving an STI around in the snow and dirt anyway.

I guess Subaru realizes people who buy them are (for the most part) going to stick to the concrete.

If it were me, I would get the summer tires on the silver set, but buy a second set of rims (the bronze set) for either snow or dirt tires (or all seasons).

[850CSi]

From what I'm reading, the new Mini doesn't have the magic of the old new one.?

Yeah, I don't think "twitchy in the twisties" was ever used to describe the old one.

[J86]

I think this is my favorite class of car....

I REALLY want a WRX wagon (goddamn you Ringe!) and the prev-gen. Mini.

[850CSi]

I think this is my favorite class of car....

I REALLY want a WRX wagon (goddamn you Ringe!) and the prev-gen. Mini.

I would like to have a last-gen Mini in British racing green with a Union Jack on the roof.

[LonghornTX]

I guess I am going to have to go test drive this MS3 now.  Before, I was able to write it off (mostly for small things), but if C&D is going to pick it over a GTI (a car I  LOVED when I test drove it), I definately have to put out that effort.

[565]

A lot of the competition was pretty well equipped (the GTI rang in at over $29K as tested)

That's alot of dough for a hot hatch.? It reminds me of that recent Road and Track test where they were looking for the best sporty car for under 30K, and despite all these high powered FWD pocket rocket newcomers, it was the old school RWD 350Z that walked away with top honors.? Many of the cars in this test were creeping into 350Z territory in terms of price.? It seems to me that these sort of cars should stick closer to a 20K price tag, which is why my pick would either be a Civic Si (which only really has a Nav and $200 summer tires to jack up the price).

After one loads up a MS3, GTI, or WRX past the 26K mark with leather heated seats, and all sorts of plush luxury pieces, one must ask if these hot hatches have lost their way and original spirit.? I mean just look at the curb weights for many of these once lightweight pocket rockets(MS3, WRX, SE-R, and GTI are all over 3000 pounds).? They aren't the cheap, light, and raw cars that they used to be.? It seems like these cars are just becoming too expensive, too filled with gadgets, too plush, too heavy, and too complicated.?

[Rich]

That's alot of dough for a hot hatch.  It reminds me of that recent Road and Track test where they were looking for the best sporty car for under 30K, and despite all these high powered FWD pocket rocket newcomers, it was the old school RWD 350Z that walked away with top honors.  Many of the cars in this test were creeping into 350Z territory in terms of price.  It seems to me that these sort of cars should stick closer to a 20K price tag, which is why my pick would either be a Civic Si (which only really has a Nav and $200 summer tires to jack up the price).

After one loads up a MS3, GTI, or WRX past the 26K mark with leather heated seats, and all sorts of plush luxury pieces, one must ask if these hot hatches have lost their way and original spirit.  I mean just look at the curb weights for many of these once lightweight pocket rockets(MS3, WRX, SE-R, and GTI are all over 3000 pounds).  They aren't the cheap, light, and raw cars that they used to be.  It seems like these cars are just becoming too expensive, too filled with gadgets, too plush, too heavy, and too complicated. 

That Mini sounds perfect, I love to upset chassis on twisty rolling hills. The Focus loved that stuff... the rear end would skip out in a downhill turn, and I'd countersteer just a bit and give it some gas to straighten the line, then as the hill crests, the front tires loose their grip and I let off to give them a chance, then they catch once the rear end comes over the top... oh what fun it was. It's too bad Esteems seem a little less eager to participate in my antics... 

What they said ^^^


The R56 is less responsive than my R53, which is one of the reasons I wouldn't get the new one.

I also like how they didn't mention anything about the sport button in the article (I've read it).  It quickens the steering, makes it heavier, and quickens the e-throttle.  Seems to me that they pulled the same mistake they made with the Mazda 3s and it's "too bright" instrument cluster in the economy car comparo, even though there is a dummer switch that they weren't bright enough to find.

[SJ_GTI]

That's alot of dough for a hot hatch.? It reminds me of that recent Road and Track test where they were looking for the best sporty car for under 30K, and despite all these high powered FWD pocket rocket newcomers, it was the old school RWD 350Z that walked away with top honors.? Many of the cars in this test were creeping into 350Z territory in terms of price.? It seems to me that these sort of cars should stick closer to a 20K price tag, which is why my pick would either be a Civic Si (which only really has a Nav and $200 summer tires to jack up the price).

After one loads up a MS3, GTI, or WRX past the 26K mark with leather heated seats, and all sorts of plush luxury pieces, one must ask if these hot hatches have lost their way and original spirit.? I mean just look at the curb weights for many of these once lightweight pocket rockets(MS3, WRX, SE-R, and GTI are all over 3000 pounds).? They aren't the cheap, light, and raw cars that they used to be.? It seems like these cars are just becoming too expensive, too filled with gadgets, too plush, too heavy, and too complicated.?

Its not like you have to get the options. I wanted a car with tons of luxury features so I loaded up on my GTI, but the "base" GTI comes with most of the expected features in the class (CD player w/ 8 speakers, HID headlamps, power everything, AC, etc...). It seems kind of silly to count the options against a car. In fact I would say its completely irrational. If you don't want the options, then don't buy them. Its not a complicated issue IMHO.

[omicron]

How is the GTI going, now that you mention it?

[565]

Its not like you have to get the options. I wanted a car with tons of luxury features so I loaded up on my GTI, but the "base" GTI comes with most of the expected features in the class (CD player w/ 8 speakers, HID headlamps, power everything, AC, etc...). It seems kind of silly to count the options against a car. In fact I would say its completely irrational. If you don't want the options, then don't buy them. Its not a complicated issue IMHO.

I'm not against options in general, I'm just saying most of the options available for these cars are either luxury goodies or techno goodies, instead of performance stuff. You can load a GTI with that techy DSG gear box, heated seats, and high powered stereo systems, but you can't even get an LSD no matter how much you want one.

[SJ_GTI]

I'm not against options in general, I'm just saying most of the options available for these cars are either luxury goodies or techno goodies, instead of performance stuff. You can load a GTI with that techy DSG gear box, heated seats, and high powered stereo systems, but you can't even get an LSD no matter how much you want one.

So you don't like the GTI because it doesn't have an LSD?

The Mazdaspeed3 does have one, and the WRX is AWD. If that is what you "meant" I guess I can't really "debate" the point (the lack of LSD is a reasonable complaint IMHO), but I didn't see any mention of lack of LSD for the GTI in your original post. You seemed to be "against" the price of these cars "after one loads up" the options, as compared to the base price of a 350z.

FYI, aftermarket LSD's do exist for the GTI, they cost around ~1000.

[565]

So you don't like the GTI because it doesn't have an LSD?

The Mazdaspeed3 does have one, and the WRX is AWD. If that is what you "meant" I guess I can't really "debate" the point (the lack of LSD is a reasonable complaint IMHO), but I didn't see any mention of lack of LSD for the GTI in your original post. You seemed to be "against" the price of these cars "after one loads up" the options, as compared to the base price of a 350z.

FYI, aftermarket LSD's do exist for the GTI, they cost around ~1000.

My original post is that these cars are starting to lose their original spirit of simplicity, lightweightness, affordability, and raw fun.  The fact that the GTI is available with DSG and heated seats but not an LSD is one reflection of the the trend.  But it's not the only reflection of that trend.  The fact that the SE-R, GTI, MS3, and WRX all weigh over 3000 pounds is another reflection of that trend.

[SJ_GTI]

If you say so. 

[Onslaught]

Unfortunately most cars are getting fat these days. With all the safety shit they have to put on them and the luxury stuff that customers demand cars are pigs these days compared to the past. Even the MX-5 is a pig compared to the original.

[850CSi]

That's alot of dough for a hot hatch.? It reminds me of that recent Road and Track test where they were looking for the best sporty car for under 30K, and despite all these high powered FWD pocket rocket newcomers, it was the old school RWD 350Z that walked away with top honors.? Many of the cars in this test were creeping into 350Z territory in terms of price.? It seems to me that these sort of cars should stick closer to a 20K price tag, which is why my pick would either be a Civic Si (which only really has a Nav and $200 summer tires to jack up the price).

You forget that every one of these cars has two more seats and in some cases a hell of a lot more cargo room than the 350Z.

[850CSi]

Unfortunately most cars are getting fat these days. With all the safety shit they have to put on them and the luxury stuff that customers demand cars are pigs these days compared to the past. Even the MX-5 is a pig compared to the original.

Which isn't an exciting trend, no. But at the same time, I'm not sure I'd want to be driving a 2500lb car these days when half of the cars on the road weigh double that (SUV trend).