Mustang vs. GTO

[mazda6er]

"This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions."
"What do you mean, biblical?"
"What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor... real Wrath-of-God-type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies."
"Rivers and seas boiling!"
"Forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanos."
"The dead rising from the grave!"
"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats, living together... mass hysteria!"

 

I made that topic back when we could add sub-titles to the topics, so I think it originally read "Pandemonium! Goats and horses, living together...mass hysteria!"   

[Panama_Chopster]

I think many thought "It goes from 0-60 in about 5 seconds and costs less and looks cooler(this may vary)". But you'd end up paying as much as for a GTO. I'm confused .

Here they didn't go under 45K!.

[rohan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikGtsI6Xo00

In that video he says the 5.7 GTO goes 0-60 in 6.5 seconds?? Could that be right?? Does anyone know what the 6.0 does the 0-60 in?? ? I know the 96 Cobra I'm payin tony for does it in less than 6 seconds- and that's a convertible- ???  I know the 330 convertible does it in like 6.5 seconds too- could they really be that slow?

[rohan]

The G8?? That has an LS2, I think, and a regular old V6.? 362bhp and 261, respectively.?



Good looking, but I fear for its weight.

That;s a pretty good looking 4 door- and that's not bad power either- wonder what the torque is?  Thanks for looking that up- believe it or not I'm pretty busy today and am on my way back out now.

[Raghavan]

The G8? That has an LS2, I think, and a regular old V6. 362bhp and 261, respectively.



Good looking, but I fear for its weight.

It's a fullsize 4 door, why worry about its weight?

[Panama_Chopster]

Does anyone know what the 6.0 does the 0-60 in?

according to MT, 5.0 seconds


And Raza, how can the 3.6 VVT V6 be old? It's up there with the other sixes.

[Raza]

In that video he says the 5.7 GTO goes 0-60 in 6.5 seconds?  Could that be right?  Does anyone know what the 6.0 does the 0-60 in?    I know the 96 Cobra I'm payin tony for does it in less than 6 seconds- and that's a convertible- ???  I know the 330 convertible does it in like 6.5 seconds too- could they really be that slow?

Did he say 6.5?  That's not right.  The LS1 hits it in about 5.3-5.5 on the slow end, and the LS2 will run between 4.6 and 4.9 seconds. 

[Raza]

according to MT, 5.0 seconds


And Raza, how can the 3.6 VVT V6 be old? It's up there with the other sixes.

Not old, as in age-wise.  "Regular old" is an expression for "normal" or something like that.  I was just stressing that the V6 is the standard engine and the V8's the special one.

[omicron]

The G8? That has an LS2, I think, and a regular old V6. 362bhp and 261, respectively.



Good looking, but I fear for its weight.

From CarPoint:

There's an acuity to the SS V's tuning and a delicacy of balance rare in an 1803kg car (67kg lighter than the GT, and 85kg lighter than the SRT8 by the way). It's never more obvious than when the bonnets of all three cars are opened. The VE's L98 disappears down and back under the cowl, while the Boss thrusts up as if ready? to spring from the engine bay. The Hemi is big, impressive and well forward. It's not hard to surmise which one has the lowest centre of gravity and best weight balance.

Underpinning it all is the VE's immensely strong body, whose vital importance becomes obvious when the SS V travels the same roads as the SRT8 and the GT. It is undoubtedly set up softer than the other two, with more give? and body roll. Paradoxically, it manages to produce more linear and talkative steering, intimately communicative handling and progressive, impressive grip.

and

At low speed, it is still a heavy chunky car to drive compared to most of those listed above, an impression reinforced by the beefy optional steering wheel and gear lever knob. Yet this is its main appeal. Approach it as an up-to-the-minute refinement of an old-school muscle car and you will be delighted.

Out on the open road, I would question why anyone needs to pay $200,000 for an old muscle car for driving when the SS can provide all the thrills and then some. The way it shrinks around you at speed as the huge power, powerful brakes and accurate steering and handling wipes away its bulk, made it feel as light and agile as the several XU-1 Toranas I owned during the 1970s.

I really hope that's true.

[850CSi]

 

[omicron]

A lot of that can be attributed to this:



That was one thing that surprised me at the Motor Show - the engines are a long way down, and a long way back.

[SVT666]

Paradoxically...

That's the very first time I have ever seen that word in a car review.

[Nethead]

The GTO is extinct a second time.  Extinct again, when there is no competition from the SS-396, the 4-4-2, the Gran Sport, the GoTeX, the Road Runner, the two-door Charger, the Coronet R/T, or any of the ponycars except for the Mustang and it's many tuner versions.  The Fairlane GT and the Cyclone GT were no competition until '68 and later, in case you're wondering why they weren't mentioned in that list.  And anything from American Motors merits no mention among musclecars.

There have to be reasons, other than the most painfully obvious reason that paying customers bought something else.  Most people are not fooled that putting "GTO" badges on a Monaro thereby makes the Monaro a GTO...While Dodge did sorta create the Charger out of a shortened 300/Magnum instead of developing a proper coupe body/frame, that still is a lot more engineering than creating some badges, some stitching, and a steering wheel emblem.  Ford developed a coupe body/frame with 6000 pounds/inch of torsional rigidity exclusively for the '05 Mustang and then, after testing with the twenty-eight GT500 mules, upgraded every Mustang (V6s as well as V8s) to nearly 7500 pounds/inch of torsional rigidity for the '06 and all later Mustangs.  A lot more expense and effort was required here, but it's the best Mustang ever and still selling strongly after forty-three continuous years of production.  Doing the job right always pays off...In the first 30 selling days of 2006 Ford sold more Mustangs than Pontiac sold GTOs in the entire year of 2005--and that's with GTOs discounted to well below the selling price of Mustang GTs.  Now, of course, every Mustang sold is one more than Pontiac will sell GTOs in 2007.

Pontiac ripped off every true GTO fan when they rebadged an import instead of building the GTO themselves like Dodge did with the Charger and Ford has always done with the Mustang.  I'll bet the men who designed and built the fabulous '64 GTOs, the '66 GTOs, and the '68 GTOS would not even look twice at the 2004 thru 2006 faux GTOS--Can you blame them?

[Raza]

Because Dodge didn't have any help from Mercedes...

Nethead, I don't know what kind of grudge you have against the GTO, but I'm assuming you haven't driven one?

[280Z Turbo]

The GTO is not dead, it just comes with four doors and a new name now. An upgrade, if you ask me.

Let the Australians make the interior and the Corvette boys build the engine and you have an awesome car. If the GTO was really an All-American (as if that's even possible in this day and age), it wouldn't be as good. Case in point:

[ChrisV]

And anything from American Motors merits no mention among musclecars.

You really want to exclude the big-inch Javelins and AMX?

[omicron]

I want a '68-'70 AMX. Glorious cars, and quite rare here, too.

[Nethead]

Because Dodge didn't have any help from Mercedes...

Nethead, I don't know what kind of grudge you have against the GTO, but I'm assuming you haven't driven one?

Raza:? Yes you do know my grudge, RazDude!? Call a Monaro a Monaro--a fine vehicle in its day, but putting "GTO" badges on a Monaro does not change the fact that it is a Monaro.? Sell 'em as Monaros, but don't try to persuade, cajole, bullyrag, or otherwise misguide yourself into thinking you can influence those of us who remember and have driven the REAL GTOs into any kind of acceptance that slapping badges on an import thus creates a genuine GTO.? B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.? Putting "GTO" badges on a Veyron wouldn't make the Veyron a REAL GTO either.? Conversely, building a GTO here and shipping it to Australia and applying "VXR" badges to it won't make that GTO a REAL VXR, either.? Dropping an LS2 into a Magnum and applying some "GTO" badges doesn't make that Magnum a REAL GTO, now does it???

REAL GTOs are BUILT by Pontiac, not BADGED by Pontiac.? Does this distinction go over everyone's heads, or what??

Let's hear from those of you who (a) had sufficient cash to buy a new GTO outright but didn't, or (b) could have afforded the payments on a new GTO but didn't:? Why DIDN'T you buy a GTO?? Why were you NOT one of the 44,042 or so folks who bought either an '04, '05, or '06 GTO?? There's gotta be reasons ("Couldn't afford it" is certainly a reason, but what were the reasons why those of you who COULD afford a new GTO in those three years did not buy one?).? I don't know how many vehicles were sold in the US during those three years, but of those multiple millions and millions why did only 44,042 buy GTOs?

[Rich]

Raza:? Yes you do know my grudge, RazDude!? Call a Monaro a Monaro--a fine vehicle in its day, but putting "GTO" badges on a Monaro.? Sell 'em as Monaros, but don't try to persuade, cajole, bullyrag, or otherwise misguide yourself into thinking you can influence those of us who remember and have driven the REAL GTOs into any kind of acceptance that slapping badges on an import thus creates a genuine GTO.? B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.? Putting "GTO" badges on a Veyron wouldn't make the Veyron a REAL GTO either.? Conversely, building a GTO here and shipping it to Australia and applying "VXR" badges to it won't make that GTO a REAL VXR, either.? Dropping an LS2 into a Magnum and applying some "GTO" badges doesn't make that Magnum a REAL GTO, now does it???

REAL GTOs are BUILT by Pontiac, not BADGED by Pontiac.? Those this distinction go over your heads, or what??

Let's hear from those of you who (a) had sufficient cash to buy a new GTO outright but didn't, or (b) could have afforded the payments on a new GTO but didn't:? Why DIDN'T you buy a GTO?? Why were you NOT one of the 44,042 or so folks who bought either an '04, '05, or '06 GTO?? There's gotta be reasons ("Couldn't afford it" is certainly a reason, but what were the reasons why those of you who COULD afford a new GTO in those three years did not buy one?).? I don't know how many vehicles were sold in the US during those three years, but of those multiple millions and millions why did only 44,042 buy GTOs?

Waits for ChrisV to sink teeth into this post.....

[280Z Turbo]

REAL GTOs are BUILT by Pontiac, not BADGED by Pontiac. Those this distinction go over your heads, or what?

This is a global economy. Get over it. The Charger is built in Canada with chassis design from Mercedes. The Mustang itself also shares some design with the European Focus/Mazda 3/Volvo S40/etc. as well as the Jaguar S-type.

[93JC]

And anything from American Motors merits no mention among musclecars.

It was already painful to read what you have to say because of your lack of using paragraphs, but now your ignorance has given me a good excuse to completely ignore anything you say. For shame...

There have to be reasons, other than the most painfully obvious reason that paying customers bought something else.

The biggest reason, which I have always maintained, is that old farts with the money and in the market wanted something silly and garish-looking more than they wanted a good GT.

Ford developed a coupe body/frame with 6000 pounds/inch of torsional rigidity exclusively for the '05 Mustang and then, after testing with the twenty-eight GT500 mules, upgraded every Mustang (V6s as well as V8s) to nearly 7500 pounds/inch of torsional rigidity for the '06 and all later Mustangs.?

Pounds per inch of torsional rigidity?

Pontiac ripped off every true GTO fan when they rebadged an import instead of building the GTO themselves like Dodge did with the Charger and Ford has always done with the Mustang.? I'll bet the men who designed and built the fabulous '64 GTOs, the '66 GTOs, and the '68 GTOS would not even look twice at the 2004 thru 2006 faux GTOS--Can you blame them?

I'll bet the men designed and built the '64, '66 and '68 GTOs don't really give a damn, but the old geezers who wanted a '64, '66 or '68 GTO hate the new one because there aren't enough scoops, swaths and "THE JUDGE" badges to satiate their poor taste.

[ChrisV]

Waits for ChrisV to sink teeth into this post.....

Naw, I agree with him, for the most part, though there were a lot of reasons the GTO tanked, not the least being poor advertisement, poor dealer practice, and generally outdated styling. Not old, not retro, not bland, just outdated. Had it arrived when the Monaro coupe was introduced, it would have done better, and had it been advertised more, it would have done better, and had the dealers not been such utter pricks across the board, it would have done better. Hell, had it been the top model of a reintroduced LeMans line with V6 and 4 door basic models (taken from the Holden lineup and built here in large numbers), it would have done better. Due to limited production capability in Aus, they were never EVER going to sell very many of them. 18k annually was the projected target.

And of course, GM management is always a factor in that decent cars, that get good, tend to get killed off just as they realize their potential.

[FordSVT]

The Mustang itself also shares some design with the European Focus/Mazda 3/Volvo S40/etc. as well as the Jaguar S-type.

Uhh, no. The Mazda3 is on the C1 platform, the S-197 Mustang is on a heavily revamped DEW98 platform (LS, S-type) called the D2C (d-class two door coop). The? D2C has similar floor pans, front frame rails, similar fuel tank design, and parts of the transmission tunnel are the same. There are parts of the suspension that are similar to the C1 design, but the rest of the suspension, firewall and other stuff is unique.
-FordSVT-

[Nethead]

93JC:? The body\frame of the 2005 Mustang could support 6000 pounds hung from any corner of the frame/body before the body/frame would twist one inch.? Clearer now?? I've never read the amount of weight the body/frame of the 2005 Mustang could support before the body/frame would twist one degree.? The current FR500C, with its roadracing rollcage, can support 20,000 pounds before it will twist one degree, but the Nethead here does not know if twisting one degree produces less than, greater than, or exactly one inch of deflection/twist.  I quote the figure for the FR500C because that's on a website, but the pounds/degree for the production Mustang was not.  That racing rollcage more than doubles the torsional rigidity for sure.

The production musclecars produced by American Motors in the late 'Sixties could not match the performance of the production musclecars produced by The Big Three.? The AMX, much smaller than the intermediate-sized musclecars, may not have matched the performance of the musclecars, either.? Not that it mattered greatly after 1967, once the ponycars began offering big block engines...

[93JC]

93JC:? The body\frame of the 2005 Mustang could support 6000 pounds hung from any corner of the frame/body before the body/frame would twist one inch.? Clearer now?? I've never read the amount of weight the body/frame of the 2005 Mustang could support before the body/frame would twist one degree.? The current FR500C, with its roadracing rollcage, can support 20,000 pounds before it will twist one degree, but the Nethead here does not know if twisting one degree produces less than, great than, or exactly one inch of deflection/twist.

That's... ridiculous. Tosional rigidity is expressed in foot-pounds (or Newton-metres) per degree (or radian). No one would report it on a per length basis: it's useless.

[SVT666]

This is a global economy. Get over it. The Charger is built in Canada with chassis design from Mercedes.

Parts of the rear suspension and that's it.? Not even all of the suspension, just parts of it.

The Mustang itself also shares some design with the European Focus/Mazda 3/Volvo S40/etc. as well as the Jaguar S-type.

It does not.? The Mustang has it's own dedicated chassis.

[SVT666]

Uhh, no. The Mazda3 is on the C1 platform, the S-197 Mustang is on a heavily revamped DEW98 platform (LS, S-type) called the D2C (d-class two door coop). The? D2C has similar floor pans, front frame rails, similar fuel tank design, and parts of the transmission tunnel are the same. There are parts of the suspension that are similar to the C1 design, but the rest of the suspension, firewall and other stuff is unique.
-FordSVT-

Actually it's even less then that.  Modifying the DEW98 platform was abandoned halfway through because the platform was too expensive to produce for the Mustang and keep the prices reasonable.  The platform was basically designed from scratch.

[280Z Turbo]

This is what wikipedia says:

The D2C (for "D-class 2-door coupe" and also known as DC2 and S197) is Ford's newest global rear-wheel drive automobile platform. The platform basics are a MacPherson strut suspension in front and 3-link solid axle in the rear with a Panhard rod. The 2007 high performance Special Vehicle Team (SVT) Mustang variation, called the Shelby GT500, will not include an SVT-designed independent rear suspension, but will also have the solid rear axle. Engines include a 4.0 L V6, Ford's Modular 4.6 L V8, and a supercharged 5.4 L Modular V8 in the GT500.

Despite rumours hinting otherwise, D2C is loosely based on the Ford DEW platform which served as the basis for the Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, and Jaguar S-Type. The 2005 S197 Mustang was originally designed to use a "Lite" version of the DEW98 platform, but while that plan was eventually scrapped as too expensive, most D2C platform development completed prior to that decision was retained. This led to the carryover of several DEW98 chassis components. These components include the floor pans, portions of the transmission tunnel, the front frame rails, and fuel tank design.

Differences between D2C and DEW98 are most noticeable in the suspension: The DEW98-based Lincoln LS uses a 4-wheel independent double wishbone suspension. The D2C platform's MacPherson strut front suspension and solid axle rear suspension are less expensive to produce than DEW's more complicated setup. D2C also shares components with other Ford platforms. These include Ford's global C1 platform, with which D2C shares front strut and rear trailing arm components.

Ford's current The Way Forward plan calls for Mustang derivative models to be launched in 2007 and 2008.

[280Z Turbo]

Uhh, no. The Mazda3 is on the C1 platform, the S-197 Mustang is on a heavily revamped DEW98 platform (LS, S-type) called the D2C (d-class two door coop). The  D2C has similar floor pans, front frame rails, similar fuel tank design, and parts of the transmission tunnel are the same. There are parts of the suspension that are similar to the C1 design, but the rest of the suspension, firewall and other stuff is unique.
-FordSVT-

I said shares some design, not that the Mustang rode of the same platform.

You can try to pick away at my post, but the point I was trying to make is that in a global economy, are there really all-American cars anymore? I think not. It's a worldwide effort nowadays.

[Nethead]

That's... ridiculous. Tosional rigidity is expressed in foot-pounds (or Newton-metres) per degree (or radian). No one would report it on a per length basis: it's useless.

93JC: I don't make these figures up, JCDude, I just quote 'em.? Personally, a pounds-per-degree value seems less perceptual than a pounds-per-inch value.? You can measure an inch of deflection with a yardstick, ruler, or tape measure but a more complicated apparatus might be necessary to prove that a body-frame had deflected one degree.? ?

If you don't understand what is meant by needing 6000 pounds suspended from any corner of the body/frame to cause that corner to deflect one inch from its non-weighted position, I can't explain that concept in simpler terms other than to say "It takes 6000 pounds of weight to twist the current Mustang's body/frame one inch."

Is it any clearer now?? If not, you need to buy a Mustang body-in-white ($3500 or so) from Ford Racing Performance Parts and perform tests using measurements/standards that you understand.? Keep us posted!