Luxury Sedans

[MidnightDave]

Given that list, I went high 5!

[Colonel Cadillac]

 

[rjm]

Having driven the E, 5, and M on numerous occasions, they are all 3 tops in this class.  And while I prefer the E, I might just take the M based solely on dealer experience.  It may be different for others, but based on prior experience, as well as discussions with colleagues, the Infiniti dealer here sets the standard.  In fact, it is consistently the #1 or #2 dealer in the country for customer satisfaction and the owner is absolutely one of the nicest men anywhere.

[sportyaccordy]

That's what i thought too. It's way too big.

My digital camera is down for the count... I have a plan for a new sig, just gotta take the pics. It'll be much more conventional.

[TheIntrepid]

POS Nissan :P

[ChrisV]

I don't like to be mainstream, and I love the S type. Already spent a lot of time with one, as well as owning older Jags. I haven't seen them to be unreliable, not like the X type (which isn't really that bad overall for reliability, either). No new cars are really unreliable, and anything with a warranty is better than the older cars I've had.

[LonghornTX]

I have driven all of these cars (except the new S80 and S-type) extensively, and for me, I would go A6.  Yes, the M and 5 are better drivers cars, but the design and interior of the A6 more than make up for it IMO.  This is considering that my parents bought an M35 (the reason why I was able to drive all of these so much) and I own a 5.

Now, if we are talking ultra hi-po like the S6, M5, and E63, give me the M5  .

[Raza]

Now, if we are talking ultra hi-po like the S6, M5, and E63, give me the M5  .

Again, it's the E63 in that range for me.  The M5 just doesn't have the right transmission to work with it.  The E63 is just as dynamic, and the new engine is a revver.  The M5 has that horrid SMG and then the manual that doesn't allow you to turn off the traction control.  And the E63 looks the best.

[Colonel Cadillac]

In the E63 AMG, the ESP will not completely turn off either

[TheIntrepid]

Hey, who else picked the GS?

[omicron]

I don't like to be mainstream, and I love the S type. Already spent a lot of time with one, as well as owning older Jags. I haven't seen them to be unreliable, not like the X type (which isn't really that bad overall for reliability, either). No new cars are really unreliable, and anything with a warranty is better than the older cars I've had.

I just wish the S-type had a bit more room in the rear, so when Jeeves ferries me to the airport, I can comfortably fit in the back. I'll have the 4.2.

[565]

Having driven the E, 5, and M on numerous occasions, they are all 3 tops in this class.? And while I prefer the E, I might just take the M based solely on dealer experience.? It may be different for others, but based on prior experience, as well as discussions with colleagues, the Infiniti dealer here sets the standard.? In fact, it is consistently the #1 or #2 dealer in the country for customer satisfaction and the owner is absolutely one of the nicest men anywhere.

I agree.  I test drove a miata at an infiniti dealer (go figure).  And the man was the nicest salesmen I've met.  He was an older man, and wasn't some young kid thinking he was the slickest salesmen around  He didn't try to push the car or lecture me much about it.  He was honest in admitting to not knowing much about Miatas, after making a joke in reference to the fact that two black Miata's were traded in within a short period of time and it appeared they were multiplying. Then the rest of the trip we just had a nice drive and talked about various topics that had nothing to do with cars.  He never protested when I pushed the car hard.  Afterwards there was no pressure from him to buy either.

I guess Infiniti dealers are so nice because for a long time, their cars weren't exactly appealing and dealer hospitality was one of their biggest selling points.  Now that their cars are in such high demand, I hope they will maintain their high standard of service.

[cawimmer430]

In the E63 AMG, the ESP will not completely turn off either

Be glad it doesn't. ESP saves lives. 

If you're a purist, go for the M5.

[850CSi]

Be glad it doesn't. ESP saves lives.?

If I'm buying a car for $80K, I want to be able to burn the tires off. I wouldn't touch a 6-speed M5 with a pole either.

Stability control is great for everyday driving, but it's also very good at making it impossible to have fun.

[850CSi]

Again, it's the E63 in that range for me.? The M5 just doesn't have the right transmission to work with it.? The E63 is just as dynamic, and the new engine is a revver.? The M5 has that horrid SMG and then the manual that doesn't allow you to turn off the traction control.? And the E63 looks the best.

For a track day I think I'd rather have the SMG over an automatic but otherwise the auto's a better idea and probably handles the power better.

[Raza]

In the E63 AMG, the ESP will not completely turn off either

The ESP is more lax than on my E320, and you can drift that and get burnouts.  As I recall, the DSC system doesn't go off at all on the 6 speed. 

[Raza]

For a track day I think I'd rather have the SMG over an automatic but otherwise the auto's a better idea and probably handles the power better.

Precisely.  But you're not going to track a 94,000 pound sedan and get embarassed by anyone in something with two seats.  So why deal with the hassle of a poorly matched transmission?  When I was reading an Evo comparison of the M5, the Quattroporte, and the CLS63, the reviewer mentioned the relief it was to get into the CLS, which had a regular automatic, and then expressed awe at how well the automatic worked in manual mode.  These new automatics work so well in manual mode (especially AMG Speedshift) that the SMG really doesn't make sense anymore since an automatic can do it just as well and be more liveable. 

All BMW hating aside, the SMG is a poor choice of automatic for the M5.  I understand why they did it (No automatics in M cars ever!  Erm...anymore!) but it's just not a real world transmission.  All it is an automatic for people who like to say "No, it's a sequential manual transmission.  I think you can change gears with those paddles, but I leave it in....self shift mode.  That way, I don't have to be bothered."

[SVT666]

5 Series

[850CSi]

The ESP is more lax than on my E320, and you can drift that and get burnouts.? As I recall, the DSC system doesn't go off at all on the 6 speed.?

You couldn't completely disable ESP on the E320 either? But if it lets you do drifts and burnouts, when the hell is it gonna decide to kick in? (it may as well be off)

And the 6-speed M5 is completely pointless.

[850CSi]

All BMW hating aside, the SMG is a poor choice of automatic for the M5.? I understand why they did it (No automatics in M cars ever!? Erm...anymore!) but it's just not a real world transmission.? All it is an automatic for people who like to say "No, it's a sequential manual transmission.? I think you can change gears with those paddles, but I leave it in....self shift mode.? That way, I don't have to be bothered."

I think part of it may be that BMW has yet to make an automatic that is remotely as good as MB's are as far as manual shifting.

[JYODER240]

Forget M's and AMG's, give me a Quattroporte with an auto tranny.

[Raza]

You couldn't completely disable ESP on the E320 either? But if it lets you do drifts and burnouts, when the hell is it gonna decide to kick in? (it may as well be off)

And the 6-speed M5 is completely pointless.

I'm assuming that it never fully turned off.  But I've never had it kick back in. 

Plus, I've seen enough big smoke from modern AMGs to know that the ESP system really does hibernate for a good long while. 

[cawimmer430]

If I'm buying a car for $80K, I want to be able to burn the tires off. I wouldn't touch a 6-speed M5 with a pole either.

Stability control is great for everyday driving, but it's also very good at making it impossible to have fun.

I think cars can be fun to drive no matter what, but doing burnouts and donuts and that kind of suff is abusing the car and I'd never do that with a car I bought myself. Plus, most E63 AMG's are sold to folks who want a more powerful E-Class with better handling and don't really care much about the purist aspect.

And the price shouldn't be an issue. Not everyone expects the ESP to have a fully deactivated option on an $80K+ car.

[LonghornTX]

Again, it's the E63 in that range for me.? The M5 just doesn't have the right transmission to work with it.? The E63 is just as dynamic, and the new engine is a revver.? The M5 has that horrid SMG and then the manual that doesn't allow you to turn off the traction control.? And the E63 looks the best.

Eh, from what I have heard (because I obviously have not driven all of these cars), the M5 is still the more dynamic choice in handling and steering, and it has a V10 (which frankly sounds badass with a Dinan exhaust).  Plus, if I bought a hi-po car I would still want some level of interaction, even if it forced and with a jerky sequential like the SMG.  Also, IMO, the E63 looks fat.

[Raza]

Eh, from what I have heard (because I obviously have not driven all of these cars), the M5 is still the more dynamic choice in handling and steering, and it has a V10 (which frankly sounds badass with a Dinan exhaust).  Plus, if I bought a hi-po car I would still want some level of interaction, even if it forced and with a jerky sequential like the SMG.  Also, IMO, the E63 looks fat.

I think the interaction argument is a bad one for the SMG.  SMGs are not for interaction.  As Zoltan put it, do you think they put an SMG in Schumacher's car so he could have more fun?  No, they did not.  They put it there to make shifts quickly.  It's a race transmission that belongs on a race track.  When it comes down to it, on either trans, SMG or AMG Speedshift, you're still pressing a  button and the computer is still executing the shift.  The only differences are that the SMG is a little quicker, and a whole lot jerkier and messier around town. 

[TBR]

Yes, I don't understand how faster shifts equal interaction. For that reason, if I was shopping this class I would just pony up another $15k grand for a Quattroporte or go budget and get a regular A6, or 5-series (it is really growing on me with the new engine options).

[Raza]

Yes, I don't understand how faster shifts equal interaction. For that reason, if I was shopping this class I would just pony up another $15k grand for a Quattroporte or go budget and get a regular A6, or 5-series (it is really growing on me with the new engine options).

The Quattroporte is impressive (and beautiful, though it took forever to grow on me) but it has the same sort of transmission dilemma.  The Duoselect isn't a very good transmission, and according to Evo, the automatic doesn't fit the car as well as the Duoselect does for sport.  The Duoselect model did, however, lap Bedford West faster than the 500bhp M5.

As far as going for the regular models go in this class, I don't think I would buy any.  They're all rather large.

[TBR]

But they offer a regular AT now. The same ZF unit that is in the 7-series IIRC.

[1 BAD 7]

I agree and disagree with you here. First question is have you driven the SMG III in BMW M5?

Because I have driven both the SMG II and SMG III versions and I can tell you that SMG III is very smooth compared to the SMG II found in BMW M3. In its fastest settings you cant feel any jerks that you mentioned. So you have obviously not driven the M5 or M6 otherwise you would not have made that comment. No one has a gun to your head to make you select the sorry slow ass settings so why would you on purpose choose a lazy shifting setting and then complain about jerks is beyond me.

As for interaction part SMG III/II in manual version offer greater driver interaction then a normal slush box that doesnot act like a true manual and often shifts at redline or just before redline on its on. Where as SMGII/SMGIII have to be shifted manualy in manual mode otherwise it will keep bouncing off the rev limiter just like a manual tranny versions.

If one directly compares the SMGII/SMGIII to the manual tranny then yes traditional manual thanks to its third pedal might require more human effort. As for your comment that computer shifts in SMG version is incorrect. The computer doesnot shift on its own until a human commands it to do so. So if you dont feel like pressing a button move the stick backward and forwards as you would in any traditional manaul. Once again the main difference is that one has a automated clutch and no third pedal while other has a manual clutch and third pedal.

As far as which one is more fun then that is totaly dependent upon each individuals own prefference and definition of fun.

I think the interaction argument is a bad one for the SMG.? SMGs are not for interaction.? As Zoltan put it, do you think they put an SMG in Schumacher's car so he could have more fun?? No, they did not.? They put it there to make shifts quickly.? It's a race transmission that belongs on a race track.? When it comes down to it, on either trans, SMG or AMG Speedshift, you're still pressing a? button and the computer is still executing the shift.? The only differences are that the SMG is a little quicker, and a whole lot jerkier and messier around town.?

[Raza]

Kayani!?  You think the BMW is best?

I'm shocked! 

From Car and Driver:

"But the biggest culprit is the SMG. In the most aggressive automated manual mode, it hammers home shifts like John Henry racing the steam drill ? whop-whop-whop! But in full automatic, it?s all but impossible to avoid huge gasps between upshifts, particularly in the lower gears. One logbook scribbler summed up the test crew?s unanimous response: ?I tried to leave it in auto mode, but I just couldn?t stand it.?"