Luxury Sedans

[Raza]

But they offer a regular AT now. The same ZF unit that is in the 7-series IIRC.

I addressed that in my post.  I think it's a great idea, but Evo doesn't seem to think the transmission fits the Quattroporte very well.  I can't find the review online, but I'll search through my mags and see if I can find it.

[1 BAD 7]

Raza? you think Porsches are the best?

I'm shocked!

:lol:By the way the above comment was as pointless as your personal attack comment below.

So in other words you have no personal experience with SMG III but are rather quoting some other dude's opinions to me. Well I thought you were better then that Raza. Try driving something yourself first hand before taking someone elses words as gospel.

Then if you are going to do that atleast read properly so you can truly understand what they are trying to convey to you in that paragraph or so to the best of their abiltiy. So here it goes if you read it carefully you will see that they are talking about full automatic mode not manual and then they never mentioned anything about the fastest settings. I have driven both M5 and M3 in auto mode of slow settings and fast settings. In fastest setting of manual mode without a doubt M5 is super fast and smooth. While in the fastest automatic mode it is not much far behind in M5. Where as in M3 it is jerky indeed in even automatic mode.

You buy SMG III so you can enjoy shifting manualy otherwise you would just get a slush box. So the whole point of the SMG III and keeping the car in automatic mode in slow settings is beyond me. I know you cant understand what I am saying because you have no personal experience with SMG III type tranny and are solely depending upon some editors views.

The point of buying an SMG III type tranny and then keeping it in dumb down and slow automatic mode is equal to someone buying a Porsche Boxster with manual tranny and then not pressing the clutch to make gear changes and after wards complaining that the shifts were two harsh.

Kayani!?? You think the BMW is best?

I'm shocked!?

From Car and Driver:

"But the biggest culprit is the SMG. In the most aggressive automated manual mode, it hammers home shifts like John Henry racing the steam drill ? whop-whop-whop! But in full automatic, it?s all but impossible to avoid huge gasps between upshifts, particularly in the lower gears. One logbook scribbler summed up the test crew?s unanimous response: ?I tried to leave it in auto mode, but I just couldn?t stand it.?"

[Raza]

Well, Kayani, first, distinguish between a joke and a personal attack.  My comment was the former, not the latter.

And I can't go out and drive every car out there, so sometimes you have to rely on people who do that for a living.  You tell me not to take someone's opinion as gospel, then you, a confirmed blind BMW lover, say that it's great and that I should ignore the professionals, also BMW lovers, even if they're not the most reliable.  It's not that that article I quoted is the only one that was annoyed by the transmission.  It's just the first one that I pulled up.

You don't buy an SMG to enjoy manual shifting.  Manual shifting can happen in an automatic too.  I know, because I do it everyday.  You buy an SMG because you're too lazy to deal with a real manual.  I mean, honestly, what companies sell them?  BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin.  Other than BMW, those are all seriously sporting cars.  But, they wanted to increase their customer base by offering an automatic transmission.  And then they go on and say something silly like "Oh, it's a manual transmission, you just don't have to operate the clutch.  Oh, yes, it works in automatic mode also.  So you don't really ever have to shift.  Ever.  But it's not an automatic.  It's a manual.  That's automatic.  But it's a manual." 

You seem to be forgetting that many automatics with tiptronic functions also shift, and shift almost as quickly as SMGs, and are smoother in automatic mode.  If you want to shift manually, you can buy one of those. 

SMGs don't work on public roads; they're for the race track.  It's not about fun.  It's not about involvement.  It's about a marketing line.  That's all.

If you think that SMGs are for driving enjoyment, you're either buying the marketing line, lying to yourself, or just sadly mistaken. 

[1 BAD 7]

Once again I will ignore your childish personal attacks because you will pretend it is a joke. Maybe no one told you that it is funny only once and not if it is repeated over and over again .

Anyways, back to the real topic at hand in which you claimed that manumatic type trannys are just like SMG. Very wrong they are not similar at all in their basic form or function. The manumatic slush box tranny uses a power saping torque converter where as the Sequential manual gear box uses an automated clutch. Also those manumatic slush boxes cant hold a gear where as the sequential manual will not shift and bounce of the limiter all day unless you decide to make the shift. So the computer doesnot control when to shift but rather a human makes that decision.

Only difference between the manual gear box and the Sequential Manual gear box such as SMG is that one has a third pedal for engaging clutch while the other has it automated. If you think people buy the manual tranny for the sole purpose of pressing the third pedal then I cant relate to you. I think people buy it for greater involvement and control of their car which is exactly what you can get out of your Sequential manaual gear box even without depressing a third pedal in my opinion.

The level of human involvement in manual is greatest followed by SMG and then auto [Manual>SMG>auto] so anyone that denies is living in a fools paradise as SMG are more invovling and fun then any slush box with power saping torque converter and computer controled shifts.

Well, Kayani, first, distinguish between a joke and a personal attack.? My comment was the former, not the latter.

And I can't go out and drive every car out there, so sometimes you have to rely on people who do that for a living.? You tell me not to take someone's opinion as gospel, then you, a confirmed blind BMW lover, say that it's great and that I should ignore the professionals, also BMW lovers, even if they're not the most reliable.? It's not that that article I quoted is the only one that was annoyed by the transmission.? It's just the first one that I pulled up.

You don't buy an SMG to enjoy manual shifting.? Manual shifting can happen in an automatic too.? I know, because I do it everyday.? You buy an SMG because you're too lazy to deal with a real manual.? I mean, honestly, what companies sell them?? BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin.? Other than BMW, those are all seriously sporting cars.? But, they wanted to increase their customer base by offering an automatic transmission.? And then they go on and say something silly like "Oh, it's a manual transmission, you just don't have to operate the clutch.? Oh, yes, it works in automatic mode also.? So you don't really ever have to shift.? Ever.? But it's not an automatic.? It's a manual.? That's automatic.? But it's a manual."?

You seem to be forgetting that many automatics with tiptronic functions also shift, and shift almost as quickly as SMGs, and are smoother in automatic mode.? If you want to shift manually, you can buy one of those.?

SMGs don't work on public roads; they're for the race track.? It's not about fun.? It's not about involvement.? It's about a marketing line.? That's all.

If you think that SMGs are for driving enjoyment, you're either buying the marketing line, lying to yourself, or just sadly mistaken.?

[Raza]

Once again I will ignore your childish personal attacks because you will pretend it is a joke. Maybe no one told you that it is funny only once and not if it is repeated over and over again .

Anyways, back to the real topic at hand in which you claimed that manumatic type trannys are just like SMG. Very wrong they are not similar at all in their basic form or function. The manumatic slush box tranny uses a power saping torque converter where as the Sequential manual gear box uses an automated clutch. Also those manumatic slush boxes cant hold a gear where as the sequential manual will not shift and bounce of the limiter all day unless you decide to make the shift. So the computer doesnot control when to shift but rather a human makes that decision.

Only difference between the manual gear box and the Sequential Manual gear box such as SMG is that one has a third pedal for engaging clutch while the other has it automated. If you think people buy the manual tranny for the sole purpose of pressing the third pedal then I cant relate to you. I think people buy it for greater involvement and control of their car which is exactly what you can get out of your Sequential manaual gear box even without depressing a third pedal in my opinion.

The level of human involvement in manual is greatest followed by SMG and then auto [Manual>SMG>auto] so anyone that denies is living in a fools paradise as SMG are more invovling and fun then any slush box with power saping torque converter and computer controled shifts.

The form is different but the function is the same.  I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore.  You can go on pretending that SMG is a more involving transmission.  I don't care anymore.

By the way, what do you think controls the shifts in a sequential manual?  Gnomes?  And as for holding a gear, my E320 wouldn't upshift at the rev limiter.  That's a software decision, it has nothing to do with the nature of an automatic transmission.

[LonghornTX]

Well, Kayani, first, distinguish between a joke and a personal attack.? My comment was the former, not the latter.

And I can't go out and drive every car out there, so sometimes you have to rely on people who do that for a living.? You tell me not to take someone's opinion as gospel, then you, a confirmed blind BMW lover, say that it's great and that I should ignore the professionals, also BMW lovers, even if they're not the most reliable.? It's not that that article I quoted is the only one that was annoyed by the transmission.? It's just the first one that I pulled up.

You don't buy an SMG to enjoy manual shifting.? Manual shifting can happen in an automatic too.? I know, because I do it everyday.? You buy an SMG because you're too lazy to deal with a real manual.? I mean, honestly, what companies sell them?? BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin.? Other than BMW, those are all seriously sporting cars.? But, they wanted to increase their customer base by offering an automatic transmission.? And then they go on and say something silly like "Oh, it's a manual transmission, you just don't have to operate the clutch.? Oh, yes, it works in automatic mode also.? So you don't really ever have to shift.? Ever.? But it's not an automatic.? It's a manual.? That's automatic.? But it's a manual."?

You seem to be forgetting that many automatics with tiptronic functions also shift, and shift almost as quickly as SMGs, and are smoother in automatic mode.? If you want to shift manually, you can buy one of those.?

SMGs don't work on public roads; they're for the race track.? It's not about fun.? It's not about involvement.? It's about a marketing line.? That's all.

If you think that SMGs are for driving enjoyment, you're either buying the marketing line, lying to yourself, or just sadly mistaken.?

Sorry, Raza but I am going to agree with Kayani here.? There is a huge difference in involvement between a typical auto and the SMG.? You would know this if you have driven one, especially one like the SMG-III in the M5.? I am sorry to repeat that (don't think I mean to throw that in your face), but it is true.? SMG requires human input to be smooth, like a real manual (though not to the same degree obviously).? To be smooth, you must lift off the throttle on upshifts, much like a regular manual.? I know this because I have driven all forms of SMG (I, II, and III).? Also, you are forgetting that most true automatics shift at redline, with some being the exception, not the rule.? I have never driven an auto that required lifting to be smooth, have you?? That alone would seem to make SMG more interactive.? Also, driving with SMG allows you to focus more on your driving, and thus better lines, than if you were driving a manual.? That applies for anyone short of Schummie himself.? Even on public roads and not just race tracks . Plus throttle response is much crisper without the slushy in the mix.

So it is a little of both worlds.  Sure, it maybe imperfect versions of both, but it does satisfy a certain customers need, or else they wouldn't be on the market.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying SMG is the best sequential type setup.? It is not.? DSG is.? But, there are many reasons for wanting to buy a car with SMG over one with an auto.? It never hurts to keep an open mind about something you have never tried? .

[cawimmer430]

I dont want a sedan...gimme a wagon!

Tow tow tow your boat gently down the street...

[J86]

Tow tow tow your boat gently down the street...

That'll do!

I wonder how towing at 150 would work...

[cawimmer430]

That'll do!

I wonder how towing at 150 would work...

Your boat would "lift off". 

[SJ_GTI]

I chose the 5er.

They're actually pretty comfortable IMHO. Someone said the engines are underpowered?

I'd be perfectly happy in either a 525i (215 HP) or the upcoming 528i (230 HP), especially since I can get it with a 6-speed manual transmission. I'd actually most prefet the 530i Sport w/ 6MT though. The upcoming 535i should be a blast as well.

The 5 is great to me because its relatively light for its class and size, offers smooth straight sixes, and fantastic 6-speed manual transmissions. Only thing I wish they would add is a limited slip differential. Though I guess if I was in the snowbelt I'd probably go with an AWD 5er (also available with 6-speed manuals).

[chevyguy06]

So nice to see this one didn't turn into a big argument like the last poll...

[TBR]

The Quattroporte is impressive (and beautiful, though it took forever to grow on me) but it has the same sort of transmission dilemma.  The Duoselect isn't a very good transmission, and according to Evo, the automatic doesn't fit the car as well as the Duoselect does for sport.  The Duoselect model did, however, lap Bedford West faster than the 500bhp M5.

As far as going for the regular models go in this class, I don't think I would buy any.  They're all rather large.

Sorry, that wasn't too clear and I didn't read it carefully enough. I thought your commenting on the Duoselects poor automatic capabilities, not on the automatic transmission. Still doesn't make sense to me, of course Duoselect is better for sporting driving, that pretty much goes without saying.

[nickdrinkwater]

Once again I will ignore your childish personal attacks because you will pretend it is a joke. Maybe no one told you that it is funny only once and not if it is repeated over and over again .

Kayani, your posts crack me up sometimes 

[omicron]

The ZF 6-speed in a Quattroporte is a glorious, lovely transmission. Only $500 buys you the Euro Sports Pack in a Falcon, which includes the ZF, and it transforms the whole car.

[ro51092]

The ZF 6-speed in a Quattroporte is a glorious, lovely transmission. Only $500 buys you the Euro Sports Pack in a Falcon, which includes the ZF, and it transforms the whole car.

Aren't you supposed to be drunk?

[Madman]

As to which car I would choose, a lot would depend on the individual car's spec, equipment and what sort of deal I could get.  I would be perfectly happy with many of these cars, but others wouldn't even pop up on my radar screen.

Of the ten cars on the list, here's my opinion.


Acura RL................No

Audi A6..................Yes

BMW 5 Series........Yes

Cadillac STS...........No

Infiniti M.................No

Jaguar S-Type........Yes

Lexus GS................No

Mercedes E Class...Yes

Saab 9-5................Yes

Volvo S80...............Yes


Madman of the People

[1 BAD 7]

Only some times

Kayani, your posts crack me up sometimes?

[nickdrinkwater]

As to which car I would choose, a lot would depend on the individual car's spec, equipment and what sort of deal I could get.  I would be perfectly happy with many of these cars, but others wouldn't even pop up on my radar screen.

Of the ten cars on the list, here's my opinion.


Acura RL................No

Audi A6..................Yes

BMW 5 Series........Yes

Cadillac STS...........No

Infiniti M.................No

Jaguar S-Type........Yes

Lexus GS................No

Mercedes E Class...Yes

Saab 9-5................Yes

Volvo S80...............Yes


Madman of the People

Europe FTW! 

[chevyguy06]

Of the ten cars on the list, here's my opinion.


Acura RL................No

Audi A6..................Yes

BMW 5 Series........Yes

Cadillac STS...........No

Infiniti M.................No

Jaguar S-Type........Yes

Lexus GS................No

Mercedes E Class...Yes

Saab 9-5................Yes

Volvo S80...............Yes


Madman of the People

Mine would go about the same:

Acura: No
Audi:Yes
BMW:Yes
Caddy:Yes
Infiniti:Yes
Jaguar:No
Lexus:No
MB:Yes
Saab:Yes
Volvo:Yes

[YO]

... driven them all... most back to back on a closed track... in order...

... just to make it clear... my money.. .Benz CLS... for this list:

1) Infiniti M and Acura RL.  These two are by far the all around winners. More features and better performers. I'd prefer the M45 and RL CMBS package with the 18" wheel upgrade. At a closed coarse, the performance + the level of comfort just blew the others away. The M is definately the better looker on the outside, while the RL has one of the nicest interiors around

2)  BMW 5 Series. Still the most driver oriented car... but does little better than the cars above, where their "total" package sour the Beemers luxo short comings.

3) Audi A6. Love the front end, but quattro has lost the romance I once had for it with the newer systems around and the once stunning interior seems a little dated to me.

4)Lexus GS. Elegant, quiet, smooth, polarizing, numbing. Best looking exterior. Close to the Infiniti and Acura in technology... but a hefty premium.... the prettiest of the bunch

5) Benz E Class. My future employer. What can I say. The badge says it all

6)Volvo S80. Huge inprovement. Lost some of the Volvo style... feels more like a STS than an E class. What happened?

the rest.... garbage. They barely compete with Avalons and Maximas, let alone loaded Accords and Camrys.  TL's and G35s will eat their lunch every possible way and save you a boatload.  The STS is one of the more disappointing cars I've driven. It's like a 20% premiun for a stretched CTS.... which I would gladly buy over an STS. The Saab... rip... the S type, like a top of the line 95 Park Ave Ultra... just sad...

[LonghornTX]

... driven them all... most back to back on a closed track... in order...

... just to make it clear... my money.. .Benz CLS... for this list:

1) Infiniti M and Acura RL.? These two are by far the all around winners. More features and better performers. I'd prefer the M45 and RL CMBS package with the 18" wheel upgrade. At a closed coarse, the performance + the level of comfort just blew the others away. The M is definately the better looker on the outside, while the RL has one of the nicest interiors around

2)? BMW 5 Series. Still the most driver oriented car... but does little better than the cars above, where their "total" package sour the Beemers luxo short comings.

3) Audi A6. Love the front end, but quattro has lost the romance I once had for it with the newer systems around and the once stunning interior seems a little dated to me.

4)Lexus GS. Elegant, quiet, smooth, polarizing, numbing. Best looking exterior. Close to the Infiniti and Acura in technology... but a hefty premium.... the prettiest of the bunch

5) Benz E Class. My future employer. What can I say. The badge says it all

6)Volvo S80. Huge inprovement. Lost some of the Volvo style... feels more like a STS than an E class. What happened?

the rest.... garbage. They barely compete with Avalons and Maximas, let alone loaded Accords and Camrys.? TL's and G35s will eat their lunch every possible way and save you a boatload.? The STS is one of the more disappointing cars I've driven. It's like a 20% premiun for a stretched CTS.... which I would gladly buy over an STS. The Saab... rip... the S type, like a top of the line 95 Park Ave Ultra... just sad...

Having driven all of these cars as well, though not on a closed course, I would disagree with you.? Especially about the RL.? Out of all these cars (i.e. M35 Sport, 530i sport, A6 3.2 s-line, E350 sport, and RL), I thought the RL was the most lacking in overall appeal, to me at least.?

It felt pretty pudgy in comparison.? Its transmission seemed slow to shift on its own and it definately felt like its engine would benefit from shorter gearing and an extra speed.? The car felt cumbersome in corners and tended to exhibit a fair amount of body roll.? The brakes seemed underwhelming, though it is very possible the car I drove had been abused because the rotors seemed to feel kinda warped.? Still not a good sign to me though, you would think they would fix that at the dealership right??

The interior, though, was very nice, only bested by the A6 IMO.? The A6 has an interior befitting a much more expensive car, especially with the interior upgrades possible.? On the outside, the RL looked the least aggressive, but I do know some might prefer that.?

I was just underwhelmed by the personality and experience of the car, and this is coming from a guy who loved his 1987 Acura Legend LS coupe, sorry? .  And when you start getting into the V8 models and above with the others, it can quickly become irrelevant, which is sad to me.

[cawimmer430]

It's strange, I find the Acura RL quite attractive. 

We get them as Honda Legends in Europe and I've seen only one so far (and it belonged to the local Honda dealership too! ) but they're quite nice looking IMHO. Japanese elegance I guess you could call it. The interior, which doesn't look that great in pictures, looks really nice in real life. It doesn't quite have the simple elegance as some of the European cars, but it has its own unique and elegant look.

The thing that kills the Legend in Europe is the 3.5-l V6 with 300-horsepower. That's totally overpowered for European tastes. We have a lot of people who don't need all that power, even in a luxury car, and hence a smaller engine would be great for the Legend. We're talking maybe a 2.2-l CDTI (from the Civic and Accord, CR-V) and a sub-3.5-l V6 and perhaps even a 4-cylinder.

[1 BAD 7]

I agree with most everything LonghornTX said .

I think overall both the M35 sport and 535i are a huge step above the others in this class. Even the Audi A6 and MB E350 are better sports sedans then the the Acura RL.

Only real advantage the RL had when it first came out was its price and 3.5 liter V6. But now with updated engines for BMW 535i which is far more powerfull with good gas mileage the Acura RL sort of lost any edge it had in the engine department.

Ditto goes for Infiniti M35 sport and MB E350 they both offer very strong V6's and in case of the Infinti it is priced very attractively with good chassis and nice handling characteristics.  So to me the RL is in desperate need of a bit more aggressive sheet metal, power and by now it should atleast offer a 6-speed automatic. As both the BMW and MB have been coming with 6 speed and 7 speed auto's for quiet some time now.

The Sh-AWD adds too much weight for the V6 engine  to handle specialy mated to that 5-speed auto. To make it on par with the 535i and M35 sport which by the way I think will be getting the updated 310hp G35 engine pretty soon.

I think Acura should style the car with a bit more flair that is seen in the TL and TSX. Second it should supercharge or turbocharge that V6. I think adding an all new RWD chassis would not be a bad idea. Offering both the RWD and Sh-AWD combos with two different engine choices NA V6 with 300hp and super-charged / turbo-charged V6 with 350hp or so would make it an attractive offering in its class.

Having driven all of these cars as well, though not on a closed course, I would disagree with you.? Especially about the RL.? Out of all these cars (i.e. M35 Sport, 530i sport, A6 3.2 s-line, E350 sport, and RL), I thought the RL was the most lacking in overall appeal, to me at least.?

It felt pretty pudgy in comparison.? Its transmission seemed slow to shift on its own and it definately felt like its engine would benefit from shorter gearing and an extra speed.? The car felt cumbersome in corners and tended to exhibit a fair amount of body roll.? The brakes seemed underwhelming, though it is very possible the car I drove had been abused because the rotors seemed to feel kinda warped.? Still not a good sign to me though, you would think they would fix that at the dealership right??

The interior, though, was very nice, only bested by the A6 IMO.? The A6 has an interior befitting a much more expensive car, especially with the interior upgrades possible.? On the outside, the RL looked the least aggressive, but I do know some might prefer that.?

I was just underwhelmed by the personality and experience of the car, and this is coming from a guy who loved his 1987 Acura Legend LS coupe, sorry? .? And when you start getting into the V8 models and above with the others, it can quickly become irrelevant, which is sad to me.

[ro51092]

I agree with most everything LonghornTX said .

I think overall both the M35 sport and 535i are a huge step above the others in this class. Even the Audi A6 and MB E350 are better sports sedans then the the Acura RL.

Only real advantage the RL had when it first came out was its price and 3.5 liter V6. But now with updated engines for BMW 535i which is far more powerfull with good gas mileage the Acura RL sort of lost any edge it had in the engine department.

Ditto goes for Infiniti M35 sport and MB E350 they both offer very strong V6's and in case of the Infinti it is priced very attractively with good chassis and nice handling characteristics.  So to me the RL is in desperate need of a bit more aggressive sheet metal, power and by now it should atleast offer a 6-speed automatic. As both the BMW and MB have been coming with 6 speed and 7 speed auto's for quiet some time now.

The Sh-AWD adds too much weight for the V6 engine  to handle specialy mated to that 5-speed auto. To make it on par with the 535i and M35 sport which by the way I think will be getting the updated 310hp G35 engine pretty soon.

I think Acura should style the car with a bit more flair that is seen in the TL and TSX. Second it should supercharge or turbocharge that V6. I think adding an all new RWD chassis would not be a bad idea. Offering both the RWD and Sh-AWD combos with two different engine choices NA V6 with 300hp and super-charged / turbo-charged V6 with 350hp or so would make it an attractive offering in its class.

Oh my god, I agree with Kayani!? Good post, but the RL and the 535i both make 300 hp. Good post.

[JYODER240]

Oh my god, I agree with Kayani!? Good post, but the RL and the 535i both make 300 hp. Good post.

The RL makes 290. The only V6's that make 300hp or more are the 3.5 in the IS350, the 335i/535i, and this amazing engine:

[TheIntrepid]

VQ =

[ro51092]

The RL makes 290. The only V6's that make 300hp or more are the 3.5 in the IS350, the 335i/535i, and this amazing engine:

The N54 isn't a V6.

[TheIntrepid]

I-6.

[JYODER240]

The N54 isn't a V6.

N54?

[ro51092]

964 Turbo


S54B32 in E46 M3

The Porsche H6 and BMW I6 are two of the most perfect engines made, IMO