Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[850CSi]

Who's going to be happier with their car?? Answer honestly.

The dude who didn't spend $125 Grand on a Lexus.

[cawimmer430]

With disadvantages like the cut trunk space and no better fuel economy, it's a horrible choice in this market.  Actually, all Lexus hybrids are.

The trunk space is the least of the problems of this car. The real problem is LOAD CAPACITY, which is a big fat ZERO.

In German tests, the standard LS460 was criticized for having a pathetic load capacity of 400 kg. That means four average adults of 80 kg each and maybe a woman's purse in the trunk.

The LS600h, which is heavier, will have a much lower load capacity. PATHETIC.

[cawimmer430]

My uncle at one point wanted to swap the S550 for an LS460L, but I convinced him against it.

Good man. 

[the Teuton]

The trunk space is the least of the problems of this car. The real problem is LOAD CAPACITY, which is a big fat ZERO.

In German tests, the standard LS460 was criticized for having a pathetic load capacity of 400 kg. That means four average adults of 80 kg each and maybe a woman's purse in the trunk.

The LS600h, which is heavier, will have a much lower load capacity. PATHETIC.

That's the exact same as my 14 year-old economy car.  I have hauled much more though so:

Subaru, 1.  Lexus, 0. 

[LonghornTX]

I am sorry, but this is probably the most retarded car/image statement I have ever seen.  Not only is it not faster than its cheaper cousin, it gets worse gas mileage on the highway as well.  They even include little earth logos on the main navigation and info screen to help with the deception.....

Toyota, if you are listening, get your sh*t together.  Thanks  .

[565]

I find it interesting that the review of a car that is "hard to justify" has already been justified by the buyers with every single example built being sold out for 1 year already.

I can totally understand the enormous appeal of this car, it's got an X-factor and a coolness that a cookie cutter Mercedes or BMW simply cannot touch. 

The truth is, a Toyota Camry already provides everything you could really need in terms of sheer luxury ( in relation to quietness, smoothness, acceleration, etc).  Everything else that more expensive cars offer is just icing on the cake.  Most automakers have been putting on icing in the form of performance and sportiness.  Yet I find this paradoxical considering often sportiness and luxury don't go hand in hand.  Take the M3 for example.  BMW started with a well riding, quiet BMW 3 series and proceeded to tune all the compliance out of it until it rides just as harshly, and sounds just as loud as a sports car.

Does one really need their 5000+ pound luxury car to do 0-60 in 4 seconds?  Hardly.  Yet it seems like what most automakers seem to be offering on their top of the line luxury barges.

Does this Lexus offer icing that's more useful?  No, it's just as useless as 500+HP in your luxury barge.  But at least it's different and unqiue.  The fact that it's engine turns off at stop lights, the fact it is indeed a hybrid, the fact it's the hot new thing. Since all these various extras are just for self satisfaction, who cares if one is backed by 0-60 times and one isn't.

The fact is, as nonsensical as this Lexus seems, it's got one big thing going for it that no one else has.  They are the ONLY hybrid luxury vehicles on the market.   

[850CSi]

The fact is, as nonsensical as this Lexus seems, it's got one big thing going for it that no one else has.? They are the ONLY hybrid luxury vehicles on the market.? ?

.... Which doesn't matter unless you're one of those crazy environmentalist types.

[565]

.... Which doesn't matter unless you're one of those crazy environmentalist types.

And 500HP doesn't matter unless you are one of those crazy horsepower types (which I admit to being).

Personally I don't give a crap about the enivronment seeing how I drive hugely polluting and gas guzzling cars and crazy over hors.  But the idea of environmental responsible driving is becoming more mainstream by the minute.

[cawimmer430]

That's the exact same as my 14 year-old economy car.? I have hauled much more though so:

Subaru, 1.? Lexus, 0.?

[cawimmer430]

I find it interesting that the review of a car that is "hard to justify" has already been justified by the buyers with every single example built being sold out for 1 year already.

If I recall correctly, this fact was announced by Lexus before they announced the official pricing. I bet there are quite a few buyers who have reconsidered as they are not willing to spend $100k for a "Lexus".

[thewizard16]

If I recall correctly, this fact was announced by Lexus before they announced the official pricing. I bet there are quite a few buyers who have reconsidered as they are not willing to spend $100k for a "Lexus".

I doubt that will be much of a problem, people silly enough to spend this much money on a luxury hybrid aren't going to mind. With the right car, I think Lexus, at least in the US, can sell a six figure car. This car is nice enough interior wise perhaps, however it does not have the right combination of power/image(style)/being unique at all.

[omicron]

If the car was good enough, I'd pay $100k for a Lexus.

[cawimmer430]

I doubt that will be much of a problem, people silly enough to spend this much money on a luxury hybrid aren't going to mind. With the right car, I think Lexus, at least in the US, can sell a six figure car. This car is nice enough interior wise perhaps, however it does not have the right combination of power/image(style)/being unique at all.

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

[thewizard16]

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

Meh, Lexus isn't much cheaper on their normal models (IS, ES, GS, GX, RX), if any cheaper, than their european competitors. The only place they ever play the value card is the top-end car, and they can't even do that very much anymore. Lexus has been successful as being viewed as an "expensive luxury car" by the mainstream public (not you, or most people here) and that's about as much prestige as they need here for a while. They're compared to Mercedes and BMW, even by people who don't know what an Acura is or where an Audi comes from, so I think they could pull it off. History doesn't seem to be all that valuable here (I wouldn't buy an inferior, or even equal car, for more money just because of the brand history) when it comes to selling luxury cars. If it was, Cadillac would have never had trouble.

[Submariner]

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

I was just there!

[565]

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...[/size]

That may be true in Europe, but that is most definitely not true here in the US.  It is impossble to rank luxury brands for prestige, since different people have different opinions.

But...

This reminds me of a recent thread over at C&D, where that luxury institute or whatever tried to rank the brands in terms of prestige,

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=21&message.id=190218#M190218

I see you've made your opinions there as well about how "pathetic" Americans are if we think Lexus is as prestigious as Mercedes Benz and more prestigious than BMW.  But to be honest, it reflects pretty accurately what I see.  Prestige is simply a matter of opinion, we are not "pathetic" no matter which way we choose.

[850CSi]

And 500HP doesn't matter unless you are one of those crazy horsepower types (which I admit to being).

[Raza]

I think it's pretty easy to rank luxury cars here, save for Jaguar, which is a wildcard.  To some, the Britishness sort of puts it higher, to others, the Ford connection sticks it towards the bottom of the list.  If I had to make a rough estimate (of what other people consider):

Mercedes
BMW
Jaguar
Lexus
Audi
Cadillac
Acura
Infiniti
Lincoln
Buick
Mercury

[850CSi]

^I pretty much agree with that, but I think it's Jaguar's perceived poor reliability that has hurt its reputation more than anything. I doubt most people reallly know enough about cars to know about the Ford connection.

[cawimmer430]

Meh, Lexus isn't much cheaper on their normal models (IS, ES, GS, GX, RX), if any cheaper, than their european competitors. The only place they ever play the value card is the top-end car, and they can't even do that very much anymore. Lexus has been successful as being viewed as an "expensive luxury car" by the mainstream public (not you, or most people here) and that's about as much prestige as they need here for a while. They're compared to Mercedes and BMW, even by people who don't know what an Acura is or where an Audi comes from, so I think they could pull it off. History doesn't seem to be all that valuable here (I wouldn't buy an inferior, or even equal car, for more money just because of the brand history) when it comes to selling luxury cars. If it was, Cadillac would have never had trouble.

I find that really sad that Lexus is perceived to be on the same level as BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz. Anyone who appreciates history and heritage will without doubt never even speak of Lexus as being comparable with Mercedes-Benz in that department, never in a million years. The Golden Era of cars is over, and Lexus was not in it, Mercedes practically dominated much of that era and hence rightfully deserves a place among the world's greatest automobile brands.

What has Lexus done in their short history when compared to Mercedes? Nothing. They've not participated in motorsports of any kind, except NASCAR I believe and immediately the Lexus fanboys are comparing Lexus "racing history"  to that of Mercedes-Benz. Here's a word to those guys, DOESN'T EVEN COMPARE AND NEVER WILL. Don't even get me started on the other fantastic events in the history of Mercedes-Benz. Lexus is just totally raped here. 

All Lexus has done was offer a superior car with more standard equipment and better value and that's it. This hardly makes them as prestigeous as Mercedes-Benz, much less the other Euro brands. I'd go as far and claim that brands like Fiat, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Lancia etc. have more prestige and pedigree than Lexus can ever hope to match. When you examine the history of these brands, their innovations, their contributions, their motorsport success, their classic cars etc., they just whoop Lexus in the ass thrice over.


Like I said, I just don't see how Americans can  consider Lexus on par with these great European brands, especially since Lexus has done virtually nothing but copy Mercedes-Benz. Reliability and value aside, what has Lexus done?

[Tave]

All Lexus has done was offer a superior car with more standard equipment and better value and that's it.

Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[cawimmer430]

That may be true in Europe, but that is most definitely not true here in the US.  It is impossble to rank luxury brands for prestige, since different people have different opinions.

But...

This reminds me of a recent thread over at C&D, where that luxury institute or whatever tried to rank the brands in terms of prestige,

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=21&message.id=190218#M190218

I see you've made your opinions there as well about how "pathetic" Americans are if we think Lexus is as prestigious as Mercedes Benz and more prestigious than BMW.  But to be honest, it reflects pretty accurately what I see.  Prestige is simply a matter of opinion, we are not "pathetic" no matter which way we choose.

565,

I am not calling Americans "pathetic", but maybe my view of the situation is different because I consider myself a CAR ENTHUSIAST and I appreciate history and heritage and I like to also give credit where credit is due. I can't appreciate Lexus from a "brand prestige" POV because to me, they have none. There's more to a luxury car than rebadging Toyota's and selling them for less money (A fact aided by Japan's enormous purchasing of American Dollars to keep their currency artificially weak and make their products cheaper in the US market...).

If you read my reply to Wizard, I consider brands like Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Renault, Peugeot, heck even Skoda to have more prestige than Lexus. Why? Because these companies started out with their own ideas and products and they had to work hard to get where they are. Lexus has had it so easy. Founded by Toyota in what? 1989? The early Lexus were rebadged Toyota's and the company basically aimed at being the Japanese Mercedes-Benz and heavily copied Mercedes-Benz philosophy and dare I say some styling cues. Passion? Where's the passion that Lexus so speaks off? They copied Mercedes-Benz and took some of their ideas or inventions and simply perfected them. Part of my reasoning is also in my response to Wizard, especially in regards to motorsport participation etc.

It has often been said that Lexus customers are not "enthusiasts". I think we can agree on that to a certain degree. As an enthusiast, I like to drive a car with a bit of history behind it from a brand that has respect and admiration on global scale. When I hop into my dad's Mercedes E320 or his 500SL, I feel that something from Benz & Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft from the late 19th century has made it into this car. I feel that Mercedes-Benz built these cars with years of experienced gathered from that exact day in 1886 when Karl Benz invented the modern automobile. With a Lexus, you don't get that feeling. An enthusiast will note that Lexus' experience comes from Toyota, a brand that might be known for quality, but not for passionate cars (The older Celica's and older MR2's being an exception. I find the Supra's totally overrated street junk...).

Lexus are fine cars, but I would never ever consider them to be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or BMW or Jaguar or Skoda or Fiat etc. from a prestige and brand image POV. Never. The old European brands have a high level of history when it comes to motorsport participation and success and innovation, classic cars, global appeal (most, not all) etc. Lexus has none of that and therefore cannot be considered on the same level as these brands in my book. I think that most enthusiasts will think along similar lines as me.

I also think Lexus has been so incredibly overrated in terms of prestige in America because of clueless people. Yep, you read that right. I've met some people who think the quiet engine of a Lexus LS430 makes the whole brand equal to the old and established European brands. I've met dumbasses who think the cheaper price and better equipment levels of a Lexus make the brand prestigeous. Sorry, that's all bullshit to me.

From an enthusiast standpoint, prestige comes from the general achievement of a brand over years. Lexus has shaken up the luxury market in North America, but they've not really done anything mindblowing when compared to the history of BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Aston Martin, heck Audi, Skoda, Fiat, Citroen etc. You name it. Hope you get what I am trying to say? 

[Tave]

Wimmer, I don't know how much sympathy you're going to find for that point of view amongst an American audience. Generally speaking, I think we are more or less disgusted by European claims of "superior history" and "unrivaled prestige."

Quite frankly, it sounds like snobbish garbage.

[Raghavan]

Wimmer is just a troll. He won't buy a great car if it has the Lexus badge on it, but will buy absolute crap (C-class) because it has a Euro badge on it.

[cawimmer430]

Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

We're talking about prestige here, and to me, BMW and Mercedes and brands like Fiat, Skoda, Citroen etc. have more prestige than Lexus can ever hope to achieve. Why? Because:

A) They've been around longer (during the Golden Era of cars)
B) They've brought about useful innovations
C) They've got global desireability (most, not all)
D) Long and glorious history in motorsport participation (one of the main features [dare I say "requirement'] for ANY luxury brand)
E) CLASSIC CARS (a testimony to the age of the brand)




Let's apply these criteria to Lexus here, shall we?

A) 1989...

B) Let's see, HYBRIDS? Showcased by Audi-VW in the mid 1980s, Toyota simply made it available to the masses. 8-speed automatic? Adding another cog to a 7-speed transmission is not innovation, it's an improvement. Self Parking? Been proposed and developed long before Lexus offered it in the LS. Ultra quiet V8 engines? Rolls Royce in the 1960s had engines that were considered the benchmark for low noise output.

C) Ask your average world citizen which car (a simple car, not even a luxury car) they would like to own and they will most likely say Mercedes-Benz, Rolls Royce, Bentley, BMW, Volkswagen or Toyota. Lexus? NOT EVEN ON THE LIST.

D) ZERO. Oh wait, they participated in NASCAR and won like a race or two, WOW! What a great motorsport history they have! NOT. Outside of America, nobody gives a damn about NASCAR. The real and accepted races which test the endurance of man and machine are Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Formula 1, Paris-Dakar (WRC). In how many of these is Lexus involved in? That's right, a big fat  Z E R O.

E) ZERO. The only Lexus I can think of which has the chance to become a classic is the original LS400, a car I actually like and thought had character of the ultra boring LS430 and even the LS460.



Now get my point? Lexus might be all that to people who have no clue about cars, but people who place emphasis on heritage know that a Lexus doesn't and will never compare prestige wise to some of the brands it competes against in North America or Europe.

Lexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, I don't know how much sympathy you're going to find for that point of view amongst an American audience. Generally speaking, I think we are more or less disgusted by European claims of "superior history" and "unrivaled prestige."

I don't care about sympathy. I want people to see my point, my opinion of why I don't consider Lexus on the same level as the Europeans from an image POV. Technology wise, they're superior, but from a brand image POV, heck no.

Quite frankly, it sounds like snobbish garbage.

How does this sound snobbish? Do you get what I am trying to say? I'm saying that Lexus is not on the same level from a prestige POV.

Look, I even admit that Lexus makes a fine and superior and probably better car at the moment, but to me this still doesn't put them on the same level as the European brands because of the time frame and achievements. Look at the history of Mercedes-Benz, look at the hard times they went through. They went nearly bankrupt in the 1920s thanks to the Great Depression and hence Benz Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft merged in 1926 to form Daimler-Benz. At the end of World War II, 75% of Daimler-Benz factories in Germany where bombed to hell, many of their top technicians were drafted into the army and died or were taken prisoner during the war - and yet the company managed to make a comeback in 1949. From then on, it was innovation, participation in motorsport etc. that defined what Mercedes-Benz is today. And this HISTORY, this HERITAGE is something Lexus can never match.

I don't see how this sounds snobbish. I am merely giving Mercedes-Benz the recognition in terms of their history and achivements. I cannot give the same recognition to Lexus, because Lexus has achieved nothing to me. For goodness sakes they were backed by Toyota - who has the cash funds. Lexus has had it easy, and therefore, I cannot and will not consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW, or Fiat or Citroen or Skoda from an image POV.

Get it? 

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer is just a troll. He won't buy a great car if it has the Lexus badge on it, but will buy absolute crap (C-class) because it has a Euro badge on it.

Screw you.

What do you know about history of some of the worlds greatest brands? Tell me something about Alfa Romeo and their dominance in the early 1930s in European Motorsports? Tell me about Citroen and the gorgeous and innovative SM they produced together with Maserati. Enlighten me please about the achievements of brands like Skoda, Renault, Lancia etc. Let's hear it from your mouth, dipshit.

And maybe you should drive the Mercedes C-Class first, then talk. Troll. 

[TheIntrepid]

The LS460 isn't a rebadge of any Toyota. Neither is the IS350 or the GS430/450h.

[Raghavan]

B) Let's see, HYBRIDS? Showcased by Audi-VW in the mid 1980s, Toyota simply made it available to the masses. 8-speed automatic? Adding another cog to a 7-speed transmission is not innovation, it's an improvement. Self Parking? Been proposed and developed long before Lexus offered it in the LS. Ultra quiet V8 engines? Rolls Royce in the 1960s had engines that were considered the benchmark for low noise output.

So you honestly did not care about MB coming out with a 7 speed? Innovation or improvement, Lexus did it first, so give them credit where credit is due.

D) ZERO. Oh wait, they participated in NASCAR and won like a race or two, WOW! What a great motorsport history they have! NOT. Outside of America, nobody gives a damn about NASCAR. The real and accepted races which test the endurance of man and machine are Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Formula 1, Paris-Dakar (WRC). In how many of these is Lexus involved in? That's right, a big fat Z E R O.

Better go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:

huh?
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance.

Now get my point? Lexus might be all that to people who have no clue about cars, but people who place emphasis on heritage know that a Lexus doesn't and will never compare prestige wise to some of the brands it competes against in North America or Europe.

Nope, still don't get your point.

Lexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

So would you buy a turd if it had the MB badge on it because they have a better history?
In that case, no new companies should ever be started because according to you, no one would buy it because of the brand history.
And it's even harder for Lexus. They've had to fight against reputed and well known brands like BMW and MB. When MB was first started, they had no competition at all! The fact that Lexus has suceeded shows that people DON'T care about brand history and that Lexus DOES make good cars.
Face it Wimmer, if the LS600h was made by Mercedes, you'd be orgasming over it right now, saying it has the perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 8 speed transmission. Because it has a Lexus badge, you're hating it.
Nice "automotive enthusiast" you are.

[Vinsanity]

Lexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

that's all that matters, really. you can't seriously think that any significant portion of Mercedes owners bought their C-class to make them feel like Stirling Moss in the Mille Miglia while they sit in traffic.

for what their average buyers use them for, Lexus has proven to be just as good as Mercedes. they don't give a flying crap about pedigree, etc.