Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[TheIntrepid]

Sorry Wims; I'm against your argument here, I'm just too ired to write out a novel like these guys are.

[cawimmer430]

The LS460 isn't a rebadge of any Toyota.

I never said it was, but the early LS and Lexus' were - and to any enthusiast this is not a good sign because it shows DEPENDANCE on a mother brand: Toyota in this case.

And yes, Lexus has recently started coming out with their own designs, but let's look at the facts here. I can never consider Lexus a true luxury brand because they started out as Toyota's with leather and have done nothing really amazing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Lexus has done well in the US.

A) Good marketing...
B) Cheaper prices, more standard features (many of them useless gimmicks to get clueless people excited)...
C) JD Power and CR asskissing helps too...

Let's not forget that Lexus sales in the US are heavily dependant on the Toyota Harrier...I mean, uh, Lexus RX! The car of choice for a soccer mom or a daddy's girl who thinks this car is all that. I think 60% of all Lexus sold in the US were RX SUVs closely followed by the ES. If you look at Lexus sedan sales, it's not as impressive as some people make it out to be. And even if they outsell their German competitors, they're cheaper and that is a major reason for their success.

[Raghavan]

Screw you.

What do you know about history of some of the worlds greatest brands? Tell me something about Alfa Romeo and their dominance in the early 1930s in European Motorsports? Tell me about Citroen and the gorgeous and innovative SM they produced together with Maserati. Enlighten me please about the achievements of brands like Skoda, Renault, Lancia etc. Let's hear it from your mouth, dipshit.

And maybe you should drive the Mercedes C-Class first, then talk. Troll.

Know what? I don't give a shit about prestige or what some company did 80 years ago. How is that at all relavant to what they're producing today?
If i HONESTLY thought a Chinese car was better than its competition, that's where my money's going. Not to some other car because it has a certain badge or has history.
I don't know and don't care about what a certain company raced in or won what. Seriously, those race cars have nothing to do with the company's production cars, and other than for entertainment, i couldn't care less about racing either. If you seriously think a company's race car is a reflection of their production cars, you've got some serious problems.
I'm the dipshit? You are, Wimmer. Every Lexus thread you post in you spew anti-Lexus or anti-Toyota bullshit. I don't like Lexus either, they don't produce the kinds of cars that i like, but i appreciate what they do too.

[850CSi]

... This thread went downhill really fast...

[TheIntrepid]

It's a Lexus thread and Wimmer came in here. What do you expect?

[cawimmer430]

So you honestly did not care about MB coming out with a 7 speed? Innovation or improvement, Lexus did it first, so give them credit where credit is due.

When Mercedes came out with the 7Gtronic, what did I do? Did I go around the forums screaming: "Look at this marvelous innovation from the greatest company on the planet! Yay!" Did I do that? NO. I said nothing, because I know that adding another cog is not an innovation at all, it's an improvement. I'm no fanboy.

Better go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:

huh?
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance.

WHAT'S THAT? A NASCAR Lexus racecar? The day Lexus participates in Formula 1, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Paris-Dakar etc., you ring me up, ok? Mercedes doesn't officially participate in the Paris-Dakar Rally, and neither does BMW. Yet you have a group of enthusiasts racing with a modified ML350 from Mercedes and a X3 3.0i from BMW. It's good advertising.

Nope, still don't get your point.
So would you buy a turd if it had the MB badge on it because they have a better history?

That's a pretty dumb question. The issue at hand is brand prestige, and how some clueless people with zero knowledge of history think Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes. Total BS if you ask me. I've said and admitted it often enough, Lexus is on the same level from a technology POV, but from an image POV, no chance in hell. The achievements of Mercedes or other European brands totally whoop Lexus and Toyota as well. Toyota really has done nothing innovative from a technological POV. Toyota simply improved production methods and introduced the JIT and Kaizen philosophy's. That's it.

In that case, no new companies should ever be started because according to you, no one would buy it because of the brand history.
And it's even harder for Lexus. They've had to fight against reputed and well known brands like BMW and MB. When MB was first started, they had no competition at all! The fact that Lexus has suceeded shows that people DON'T care about brand history and that Lexus DOES make good cars.

You are completely misunderstanding me. I have nothing against Lexus being a challenging competitor to the German brands. My problem with Lexus is that EVERYONE is claiming that they're on the same level as Mercedes-Benz and above BMW from an IMAGE point of view - which to me is total bullshit because the history of Lexus is nothing when compared to the achivements of BMW or Mercedes.

There are many assholes out there who keep saying this gay piece of shit quote:

"It took the Germans over 100 years to get where they are, and it only took Lexus 18 years to get where they are."

You know what bugs me about this totally retarded gay ass quote? You figure it out. It's so incredibly stupid and gay.

And yes, some people don't care about brand history, and that's fine. What's not fine is that those same people consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE and IMAGE, and that's what bugs me, because it simply isn't true.

Face it Wimmer, if the LS600h was made by Mercedes, you'd be orgasming over it right now, saying it has the perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 8 speed transmission. Because it has a Lexus badge, you're hating it.
Nice "automotive enthusiast" you are.

Why would I orgasm over an LS600h? I thought that thing get's trashed by its cheaper LS460 stablemate in fuel economy and performance? I don't even orgasm over an S-Class. I like the S-Class, but I'd never get one and if I did, I'd get an S320 CDI because to me that is the perfect S-Class when it comes to a "perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 7-speed automatic transmission".

Face it, Rag, if Mercedes made such a car, they'd first of all make sure that you have a decent LOAD CAPACITY and don't need to order a taxi to transport your luggage behind your LS600h. The fact that the standard LS460 has such a pathetic load capacity shows that Lexus isn't perfect and that someone at Lexus didn't think things out very well. Or maybe this car was designed solely for America and maybe Americans don't use their LS's to travel long distances or cross country with the family. I don't know. 

Fact is, both the LS460 and LS600h have a totally crap load capacity, poor brakes (LS460) and most magazines have not been able to achieve the claimed 0-60 times. What does that mean? The LS is a POS? Lexus screwed up? Edmunds is crap? Car and Driver has sissy testdrivers who can't get an automatic 8-speed LS to rock to 60 in what, 5.6 seconds? I don't know and I don't care. Lexus knows it doesn't have the heritage to compete with the Germans, so they dazzle their customers with their technology. They add self-parking, an 8-speed automatic, a condom dispenser, I don't know what else, but it all sounds "cool"  to their customers and the fact that it's standard and "free" makes the cars even more appealing. That's another way how Lexus has won over customers, but it still doesn't put them on the same level as Mercedes from an image POV.

I respect Lexus, but hey, from an image POV, they're NOT on the same level as Mercedes or other European brands, that's all I am saying. And just because it has a Lexus badge, I hate it? Huh? I've said it before that I like the GS and the current LS, but the Lexus brand as a whole is not and should not be put together with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige POV. That's what I am saying. Don't turn this shit around.

[Tave]

I don't care about sympathy. I want people to see my point, my opinion of why I don't consider Lexus on the same level as the Europeans from an image POV. Technology wise, they're superior, but from a brand image POV, heck no.


How does this sound snobbish? Do you get what I am trying to say? I'm saying that Lexus is not on the same level from a prestige POV.

Look, I even admit that Lexus makes a fine and superior and probably better car at the moment, but to me this still doesn't put them on the same level as the European brands because of the time frame and achievements. Look at the history of Mercedes-Benz, look at the hard times they went through. They went nearly bankrupt in the 1920s thanks to the Great Depression and hence Benz Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft merged in 1926 to form Daimler-Benz. At the end of World War II, 75% of Daimler-Benz factories in Germany where bombed to hell, many of their top technicians were drafted into the army and died or were taken prisoner during the war - and yet the company managed to make a comeback in 1949. From then on, it was innovation, participation in motorsport etc. that defined what Mercedes-Benz is today. And this HISTORY, this HERITAGE is something Lexus can never match.

I don't see how this sounds snobbish. I am merely giving Mercedes-Benz the recognition in terms of their history and achivements. I cannot give the same recognition to Lexus, because Lexus has achieved nothing to me. For goodness sakes they were backed by Toyota - who has the cash funds. Lexus has had it easy, and therefore, I cannot and will not consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW, or Fiat or Citroen or Skoda from an image POV.

Get it??

I think you misunderstood me; I didn't mean to belittle your argument.

I was pointing out that an American audience isn't going to look at the situation that way. To us, it sounds like aristocratic nonsense. It's a cultural thing, we don't give social precedence to "established European dynasties." We're more utilitarian than that.

[565]

I'm no fanboy

[cawimmer430]

Know what? I don't give a shit about prestige or what some company did 80 years ago. How is that at all relavant to what they're producing today?

I'm not asking you to care, I'm asking you to use your God damn brain and read what the hell I am saying. I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. I've stated that the history and achievements behind a company like Mercedes-Benz are untouchable by Lexus, no matter what. The history behind Mercedes-Benz is one of PASSION and EMOTIONS. Lexus? ZERO PASSION. Created by Toyota etc. Where's the passion there? There's none. Toyota simply saw Lexus as a means of taking away some customers from the European luxury brands by means of cheaper prices initially. That's it. No passion whatsoever. The Toyota Celsior was a Mercedes W140 S-Class CLONE. Again, no passion. Or maybe the passionate pursuit of imitation would sound better? 

I don't know and don't care about what a certain company raced in or won what. Seriously, those race cars have nothing to do with the company's production cars, and other than for entertainment, i couldn't care less about racing either. If you seriously think a company's race car is a reflection of their production cars, you've got some serious problems.

These races, past and present, have everything to do with a company's production cars. Motorsports are some of the most demanding conditions any car can face. A lot of innovation is produced by participating in motorsports and a lot of this innovation is then used in production cars. Motorsport also enhances a company's prestige, especially if they're successful like Mercedes or BMW or Bentley or Alfa Romeo or Lancia etc. were.

Look at Toyota. Is their participation in F1 doing them any good? They're the laughing stalk of F1. Ralf Schumacher even criticized the Toyota F1 Management for lacking the experience. Guess what? The Toyota F1 car is also very unreliable according to an ADAC report I read a few weeks ago. Why does this not make it into the press? Toyota could use a little shake up in F1. 

I'm the dipshit? You are, Wimmer. Every Lexus thread you post in you spew anti-Lexus or anti-Toyota bullshit. I don't like Lexus either, they don't produce the kinds of cars that i like, but i appreciate what they do too.

Yes you are a dipshit. It already starts out with your demented perception that RWD > FWD. Here's my question. WHAT THE FUCK? FWD has it's advantages, especially in the snow or in economy cars where weight-saving is an important issue. Some of the greatest classics the world has ever seen were FWD. Want me to name a few? Gladly.

The 1934 Citroen Traction Avant was one of the BEST-HANDLING and QUICKEST FWD cars in its day. Even the invading German Army was impressed with the car that many were used by the Germans themselves. This car was such a smash hit, production continued well into the late 1950s.

The 1939 DKW Front Luxus Sport, one of the first German FWD cars available to the masses at a good price with good performance and handling. Only the advent of World War II doomed it.

It's fair to say that the Honda Civic is a pretty sweet car, despite the FWD setup, even with a bit of extra power, the Civic still combines good performance with economy and much more.

[Raza]

Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I think he's right.  Prestige does come from heritage.  Being new in the game always leaves you at a disadvantage.  It's why Volkswagen bought Bugatti instead of making up a new brand for its ultra GT.  It's why Mercedes resurrected Maybach for its ultra luxury sedan.  It's why VW and BMW bought Bentley and Rolls Royce.  Lexus built its reputation by offering new value at a time when the luxury market had grown complacent.  But to some, it will never be prestigious as brands with history.  If Cadillac hadn't had such a long stretch of rubbishness, I'd have put them higher than Lexus.  To many in America, I'm sure it still is higher in prestige than Lexus. 

Hell, James May said it about Pagani and Lamborghini and all the "upstart" sports car makers; they'll never quite be the same as a Ferrari, since Ferrari is older and sparked it all. 

And quality often has little to do with prestige.  For decades Mercedes and BMW put out better cars than Rolls Royce and Bentley. 

[cawimmer430]

I think you misunderstood me; I didn't mean to belittle your argument.

I was pointing out that an American audience isn't going to look at the situation that way. To us, it sounds like aristocratic nonsense. It's a cultural thing, we don't give social precedence to "established European dynasties." We're more utilitarian than that.

I understand that. Most people are not car enthusiast and hence they don't care about history etc. And I do find that sad and frankly unfair to all those other great brands out there aside from Mercedes-Benz. Lexus get's all the recognition for literally copying and stealing Mercedes-Benz philosophy with a bit of their own thrown in. I find that very sad. 

[cawimmer430]

I think he's right.  Prestige does come from heritage.  Being new in the game always leaves you at a disadvantage.  It's why Volkswagen bought Bugatti instead of making up a new brand for its ultra GT.  It's why Mercedes resurrected Maybach for its ultra luxury sedan.  It's why VW and BMW bought Bentley and Rolls Royce.  Lexus built its reputation by offering new value at a time when the luxury market had grown complacent.  But to some, it will never be prestigious as brands with history.  If Cadillac hadn't had such a long stretch of rubbishness, I'd have put them higher than Lexus.  To many in America, I'm sure it still is higher in prestige than Lexus. 

Hell, James May said it about Pagani and Lamborghini and all the "upstart" sports car makers; they'll never quite be the same as a Ferrari, since Ferrari is older and sparked it all. 

And quality often has little to do with prestige.  For decades Mercedes and BMW put out better cars than Rolls Royce and Bentley. 

Thanks for backing me up and a great post too!

Agree with the red... 

[cawimmer430]

You read that right... 

[etypeJohn]

I wonder what the douchebag who speaks in their commercials is going to sound like talking about this one...

Available     at your Lexus dealer.   
The newest Lexus    that does nothing well.   
But   at this kind of money      you won't care.    It will still impress the neighbors

The all new Lexus    Driveway jewelry    elevated    to a higher level.   

[Raza]

Available     at your Lexus dealer.   
The newest Lexus    that does nothing well.   
But   at this kind of money      you won't care.    It will still impress the neighbors

The all new Lexus    Driveway jewelry    elevated    to a higher level.   

I think we can put that into a jingle.  Let me grab my guitar!

[cawimmer430]

that's all that matters, really. you can't seriously think that any significant portion of Mercedes owners bought their C-class to make them feel like Stirling Moss in the Mille Miglia while they sit in traffic.

I don't expect that. But I don't understand what's so hard about this simple statement, which I have backed up with a passion.


PRESTIGE

Mercedes > Lexus


TECHNOLOGY

Mercedes = Lexus , Lexus = Mercedes

for what their average buyers use them for, Lexus has proven to be just as good as Mercedes. they don't give a flying crap about pedigree, etc.

That's the sad part. I don't care about them not caring for history - but once they ignore the history part, then it all falls to pieces because Lexus history is nothing when compared to the GLORIOUS history of Mercedes-Benz. This great history that Mercedes-Benz has (or BMW etc.) makes them prestigeous and this history is something Lexus can never touch or hope to match. Never.

[Tave]

I understand that. Most people are not car enthusiast and hence they don't care about history etc. And I do find that sad and frankly unfair to all those other great brands out there aside from Mercedes-Benz. Lexus get's all the recognition for literally copying and stealing Mercedes-Benz philosophy with a bit of their own thrown in. I find that very sad.?

I think Europeans can afford to be more interested in automotive history because all their great tracks and races are within reach. It's just physically infeasible for a lot of Americans to see a race in person.

[cawimmer430]

I think Europeans can afford to be more interested in automotive history because all their great tracks and races are within reach. It's just physically infeasible for a lot of Americans to see a race in person.

True.

We Europeans also look upon brands as prestigeous based on their history and how long they've been around. A base model C180 Kompressor is just as prestigeous as a fully loaded C350, the difference is only in the degree of luxury. What makes it prestigeous? The badge. Simple. 

And I'll be posting over 650 pictures of a European Classic Car show soon. I hope you can see why I am so passionate about Mercedes and how irked I get when people claim Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes from an image and brand prestige POV, because it simply is not true. I think I lost my temper here too, sorry to all fo you if I have offended anyone. I guess this shows how passionate I am about my brand (guess I am a passionate Benz enthusiast  ). 

[Tave]

Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

[cawimmer430]

Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

Gimme 20-30 minutes! 

[TheIntrepid]

Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

Me too.

[omicron]

The idea of prestige is entirely marketing-driven. I would argue that the buyers of a Lexus feel that their car has just as much 'prestige' as the buyers of a Mercedes perceive their own car, irrespective of the opinions of those on this forum. It has been proven many a time that the buyers of a given brand perceive their brand equally to that of buyers of another brand - Lexus buyers, on average, would see their brand as just as prestigious as Mercedes buyers would see their own brand. The very fact that so-called 'fanboys' exist supports this idea - irrespective of measurable and objective data, one side perceives their own brand as superior to the other. Pepsi drinkers, for example, think their product is better than Coke; Coke buyers think their product is better than Pepsi.

How can we seek to establish one as better than the other, when priorities of given buyers remain inherently different? How can prestige be used as a measure of a luxury brand when the term itself cannot be properly defined and agreed upon by a majority of buyers? Prestige, from my perspective, is not defined by the history of a brand; rather, it is entirely dependent on the material quality and driving ability of a car. Wimmer's idea of prestige is largely driven by a brand's history, and its motorsport achievements - and the very fact that our notions of prestige differ implies that one cannot apply the idea of prestige as the sole measure of a worthy luxury brand. Neither perception is better than the other; I might be entirely wrong, but my idea continues to exist, and continues to influence the market. This is why a brand must try to appeal to a wide market - to limit oneself to a small portion of the population assumes that all people within that market think alike, and this is not the case. Certainly, it is all but impossible to measure.

The idea of brand image is nonsensical when it is applied to all buyers - to assume that Lexus buyers are clueless, and non-enthusiasts, and lacking in proper purchasing research is at best a dangerous generalisation - I would argue that most buyers of most products are largely inept at appropriate research in the purchasing decision process. It is rare that a given buyer will seek out the appropriate, objective, correct and entire information when making a decision; factors like brand salience, word of mouth and past buying occasions are far more influential than any pre-purchase information search. Yes, BMW buyers (on aggregate) may well argue that their car is more dynamically apt than a Lexus, but that perception is more influenced by brand salience and years of marketing-driven campaigns related to driving ability than actual data. Yes, Lexus buyers may well argue that their car is quieter and more refined than a BMW, but I would argue that such a belief is influenced by marketing activities ad personal experience rather than any statistically defensible, factual information.

In effect, a Lexus buyer will say their car is the best, and a Mercedes buyer will say their car is the best. Perception does not come before behaviour; perception comes after - just because a person holds a negative view of a certain car does not mean that they will not buy it.? Similarly, just because a person likes a given car does not mean they will buy it. Even though I think Coles supermarkets suck, I still buy from them; even though I think Toyotas are boring and inept, I still drive one every day. Even though Raza loves a Lotus Elise more than anything else doesn't mean that he owns one; even though a Pontiac GTO might be more entertaining to drive than a Volkswagen GTI doesn't mean that he will buy it. Perception does not drive buyer behaviour; a purchase decision influences perception. It seems logical to say that the enthusiast would not buy a Lexus - the supposed perception exists that a Lexus is less able at offering fun for the driver than comparable brands, but I guarantee you that enthusiast drivers have bought a Lexus, irrespective of their ideas on driving comptence.

People DO buy Lexuses. People DO think that a Lexus handles better than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus is better built than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus has more 'prestige' than comparable brands. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial - once they have bought one, it is more likely they will think it is better than the opposition, and this cannot be dismissed by marketers as 'Well, they are wrong! Our brand is better!'. People of the United States do buy Lexuses in large numbers; people from Europe do not, but is one brand fundamentally worse than the other? I suggest not; the respective buyers of a given brand just think theirs is better than the other, regardless of actual data, and this is entirely natural.

[TheIntrepid]

That's an excellent post for a drunkard!

[565]

But I don't understand what's so hard about this simple statement, which I have backed up with a passion.

PRESTIGE

Mercedes > Lexus

It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't agree.  In your European world, prestige might be backed up with European racing heritage, European automotive history, all the stuff that your average American car buyer doesn't know squat about anyway.

Here in America, it doesn't work out so nicely.  Alot of those classic Mercedes cars were primarily sold in Europe.  Alot of those motorsport achievements don't matter here in America because simply we've never even heard of them.  Tell your average luxury car buyer about all those racing achievements and all he'll hear are a bunch of foreign names and numbers, none of which mean anything at all.

Mercedes heritage might mean alot to you, and people like you.  But people like you are a minority in America.

A reverse example to this would be Corvette.  Corvette has alot of brand history here in America.  Many people of this generation grew up with Stingrays, Makosharks, and know of the many motorsport achievements Corvette has achieved in it's 50 years.  Very very few car models have survived 50+ years, not even the Porsche 911.  Thus Chevy has no real problem selling lots of Corvettes here, and the Corvette nameplate has become America's premire sports car nameplate.  But Corvette is struggling in Europe because all of that history and all of those racing wins simple don't mean anything to Europeans.   Corvette has pretty much zero prestige in Europe, and earned little respect until recently with consecutive LeMans wins (notice it took wins in a high profile European setting to capture the European audience).

The same idea holds here.  Your image of Mercedes simply does that translate easily to Americans.  All those racing wins you listed were in events that most Americans know little about. 

[cawimmer430]

The idea of prestige is entirely marketing-driven. I would argue that the buyers of a Lexus feel that their car has just as much 'prestige' as the buyers of a Mercedes perceive their own car, irrespective of the opinions of those on this forum. It has been proven many a time that the buyers of a given brand perceive their brand equally to that of buyers of another brand - Lexus buyers, on average, would see their brand as just as prestigious as Mercedes buyers would see their own brand. The very fact that so-called 'fanboys' exist supports this idea - irrespective of measurable and objective data, one side perceives their own brand as superior to the other. Pepsi drinkers, for example, think their product is better than Coke; Coke buyers think their product is better than Pepsi.

How can we seek to establish one as better than the other, when priorities of given buyers remain inherently different? How can prestige be used as a measure of a luxury brand when the term itself cannot be properly defined and agreed upon by a majority of buyers? Prestige, from my perspective, is not defined by the history of a brand; rather, it is entirely dependent on the material quality and driving ability of a car. Wimmer's idea of prestige is largely driven by a brand's history, and its motorsport achievements - and the very fact that our notions of prestige differ implies that one cannot apply the idea of prestige as the sole measure of a worthy luxury brand. Neither perception is better than the other; I might be entirely wrong, but my idea continues to exist, and continues to influence the market. This is why a brand must try to appeal to a wide market - to limit oneself to a small portion of the population assumes that all people within that market think alike, and this is not the case. Certainly, it is all but impossible to measure.

The idea of brand image is nonsensical when it is applied to all buyers - to assume that Lexus buyers are clueless, and non-enthusiasts, and lacking in proper purchasing research is at best a dangerous generalisation - I would argue that most buyers of most products are largely inept at appropriate research in the purchasing decision process. It is rare that a given buyer will seek out the appropriate, objective, correct and entire information when making a decision; factors like brand salience, word of mouth and past buying occasions are far more influential than any pre-purchase information search. Yes, BMW buyers (on aggregate) may well argue that their car is more dynamically apt than a Lexus, but that perception is more influenced by brand salience and years of marketing-driven campaigns related to driving ability than actual data. Yes, Lexus buyers may well argue that their car is quieter and more refined than a BMW, but I would argue that such a belief is influenced by marketing activities ad personal experience rather than any statistically defensible, factual information.

In effect, a Lexus buyer will say their car is the best, and a Mercedes buyer will say their car is the best. Perception does not come before behaviour; perception comes after - just because a person holds a negative view of a certain car does not mean that they will not buy it.  Similarly, just because a person likes a given car does not mean they will buy it. Even though I think Coles supermarkets suck, I still buy from them; even though I think Toyotas are boring and inept, I still drive one every day. Even though Raza loves a Lotus Elise more than anything else doesn't mean that he owns one; even though a Pontiac GTO might be more entertaining to drive than a Volkswagen GTI doesn't mean that he will buy it. Perception does not drive buyer behaviour; a purchase decision influences perception. It seems logical to say that the enthusiast would not buy a Lexus - the supposed perception exists that a Lexus is less able at offering fun for the driver than comparable brands, but I guarantee you that enthusiast drivers have bought a Lexus, irrespective of their ideas on driving comptence.

People DO buy Lexuses. People DO think that a Lexus handles better than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus is better built than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus has more 'prestige' than comparable brands. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial - once they have bought one, it is more likely they will think it is better than the opposition, and this cannot be dismissed by marketers as 'Well, they are wrong! Our brand is better!'. People of the United States do buy Lexuses in large numbers; people from Europe do not, but is one brand fundamentally worse than the other? I suggest not; the respective buyers of a given brand just think theirs is better than the other, regardless of actual data, and this is entirely natural.

Good post. 10/10. 

[cawimmer430]

It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't agree.  In your European world, prestige might be backed up with European racing heritage, European automotive history, all the stuff that your average American car buyer doesn't know squat about anyway.

Here in America, it doesn't work out so nicely.  Alot of those classic Mercedes cars were primarily sold in Europe.  Alot of those motorsport achievements don't matter here in America because simply we've never even heard of them.  Tell your average luxury car buyer about all those racing achievements and all he'll hear are a bunch of foreign names and numbers, none of which mean anything at all.

Mercedes heritage might mean alot to you, and people like you.  But people like you are a minority in America.

A reverse example to this would be Corvette.  Corvette has alot of brand history here in America.  Many people of this generation grew up with Stingrays, Makosharks, and know of the many motorsport achievements Corvette has achieved in it's 50 years.  Very very few car models have survived 50+ years, not even the Porsche 911.  Thus Chevy has no real problem selling lots of Corvettes here, and the Corvette nameplate has become America's premire sports car nameplate.  But Corvette is struggling in Europe because all of that history and all of those racing wins simple don't mean anything to Europeans.   Corvette has pretty much zero prestige in Europe, and earned little respect until recently with consecutive LeMans wins (notice it took wins in a high profile European setting to capture the European audience).

The same idea holds here.  Your image of Mercedes simply does that translate easily to Americans.  All those racing wins you listed were in events that most Americans know little about. 

Good post and I fully agree. And yes, your Corvette analogy is a good example. Desired in America, overlooked in Europe. I'm tired after all this typing, night night. 

[Vinsanity]

Wimmer, I think where we all disagree with you on is the importance of past events. Hitler-sponsored racing innovations from 70 years ago have little to no bearing on today's product line. the mentality of placing that much importance on pedigree and history is essentially a caste system for cars: outdated and irrelevant.

The past is the past. Time to move on.

[Raghavan]

WHAT'S THAT? A NASCAR Lexus racecar? The day Lexus participates in Formula 1, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Paris-Dakar etc., you ring me up, ok? Mercedes doesn't officially participate in the Paris-Dakar Rally, and neither does BMW. Yet you have a group of enthusiasts racing with a modified ML350 from Mercedes and a X3 3.0i from BMW. It's good advertising.

Uhm wimmer, that's from the Rolex 24 hour series. Not NASCAR. See, that car in the pic is making a right turn.

[Raghavan]

I'm not asking you to care, I'm asking you to use your God damn brain and read what the hell I am saying. I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. I've stated that the history and achievements behind a company like Mercedes-Benz are untouchable by Lexus, no matter what. The history behind Mercedes-Benz is one of PASSION and EMOTIONS. Lexus? ZERO PASSION. Created by Toyota etc. Where's the passion there? There's none. Toyota simply saw Lexus as a means of taking away some customers from the European luxury brands by means of cheaper prices initially. That's it. No passion whatsoever. The Toyota Celsior was a Mercedes W140 S-Class CLONE. Again, no passion. Or maybe the passionate pursuit of imitation would sound better?

Yes, MB has more passion than Lexus, that's true. But what I'm saying is that i don't care about history and old racing and what not, it's irrelavant, and you aren't understanding that.

Yes you are a dipshit. It already starts out with your demented perception that RWD > FWD. Here's my question. WHAT THE FUCK? FWD has it's advantages, especially in the snow or in economy cars where weight-saving is an important issue. Some of the greatest classics the world has ever seen were FWD. Want me to name a few? Gladly.

The 1934 Citroen Traction Avant was one of the BEST-HANDLING and QUICKEST FWD cars in its day. Even the invading German Army was impressed with the car that many were used by the Germans themselves. This car was such a smash hit, production continued well into the late 1950s.

The 1939 DKW Front Luxus Sport, one of the first German FWD cars available to the masses at a good price with good performance and handling. Only the advent of World War II doomed it.

It's fair to say that the Honda Civic is a pretty sweet car, despite the FWD setup, even with a bit of extra power, the Civic still combines good performance with economy and much more.

See, I asked that question because I didn't think you were one to call people names, but apparently I'm mistaken.
First of all, WTF does my sig have to do with any of this?
Second of all, it's my OPINION. I don't care if you agree with it or not but don't try and push your idea that FWD is the best on me. I've worked on FWD cars and RWD cars, and working on FWD cars is a pain in the ass. I"m not dealing with that when i get a car. Plus, RWD is much more balanced than FWD.
At least i don't go into threads now spewing how a car isn't RWD anymore. And you've barged into many Lexus threads saying "That's a Lexus! It's sooo boring!". Even if you're joking, it gets really lame after a while.


I'm going to stop arguing now and say that it's different in America and Germany/ Europe.

[TheIntrepid]

AWD > RWD