Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[cawimmer430]

Yes, MB has more passion than Lexus, that's true. But what I'm saying is that i don't care about history and old racing and what not, it's irrelavant, and you aren't understanding that.

You might not care, and that's fine, and I don't care if the average Lexus buyer doesn't care either. My problem is that these same people who don't care about the past claim that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV. And here's the problem. They make such a bullshit statement because they don't know the history of Mercedes (or Lexus or BMW etc.). Seriously, I can respect Lexus, but I cannot respect such bullshit claims that Lexus prestige and brand image is on the same level as Mercedes, because to me it is clearly not. There's not even a comparison. Lexus get's whooped thrice over.

See, I asked that question because I didn't think you were one to call people names, but apparently I'm mistaken.

I apologize, I lost my cool. 

First of all, WTF does my sig have to do with any of this? Second of all, it's my OPINION. I don't care if you agree with it or not but don't try and push your idea that FWD is the best on me. I've worked on FWD cars and RWD cars, and working on FWD cars is a pain in the ass. I"m not dealing with that when i get a car. Plus, RWD is much more balanced than FWD.

You have your opinion about FWD, and I can respect that. However I've seen posts were you bash a car for the sole purpose of it being FWD. That almost sounds like Car and Driver when they complain about the best times and handling of a Cadillac Escalade on the Nuremberg Ring. Maybe you can work for them.   

At least i don't go into threads now spewing how a car isn't RWD anymore. And you've barged into many Lexus threads saying "That's a Lexus! It's sooo boring!". Even if you're joking, it gets really lame after a while.

I don't think I called a Lexus boring, I think I called them a "rebadged Toyota". 

And yeah, I know it get's old and I stopped doing it. In fact, check my first replies in this thread. I didn't bash Lexus in the sense that I called the car crap etc. I complained about the poor load capacity of the LS460. The Mercedes S-Class for example is a heavy car, yet it can carry nearly 200 kg more weight (600 kg total) than the LS460.

I'm going to stop arguing now and say that it's different in Americ
a and Germany/ Europe.

It is a difference in culture. Europeans are passionate about cars, that's no secret. The Classic Car Show I attended, the people there knew their stuff. You overhear people talk and they know the history of the cars at the show etc. I don't know about America...

[ifcar]

People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

[cawimmer430]

People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

Good point.

[nickdrinkwater]

A base model C180 Kompressor is just as prestigeous as a fully loaded C350, the difference is only in the degree of luxury. What makes it prestigeous? The badge. Simple.

Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing.

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest 

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing.

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest 

Consider this, rich people buy the C180 Kompressor and equip it with leather and God knows what else. This is not bullshit. I've read the Mercedes marketing reports when I was working for them two years ago as a summer job. I was allowed to read salesmans guide to selling a C, E, S, ML and SL-Class. I am NOT bullshitting. I don't like to make up fairy tales. 

The C180 Kompressor is just as bit luxurious as a C350 if equipped properly. The only difference is in performance and fuel economy. And as yoyu should be aware, quick 0-60 times are not so important overhere as they are in North America. A 10 second 0-100 km/h is completely accepted for luxury cars in Europe. What matters is the badge and even a C180K has the Benz badge. And I am pretty sure it's the same deal in the UK. When I was in London, I saw tons of C180K and C200Ks that had high-spec equipment levels like leather, navigation, memory seats etc. Trust me, a C180K is just as prestigeous as a C350 in everything except performance.

This is like the BMW "fans" who claim that a "4-cylinder BMW is not a real BMW". These fans should be beaten and ass whooped because if they knew their BMW history, they'd see that 4-cylinders are a big and glorious part of BMW's history. Heck, BMW has even won entire racing championships with a "sissy" 4-cylinder engine.

[Yawn]

I see that Mercedes/ BMW, etc is just like the GM's, Fords, etc of America. They have been here forever and have there own history. Mercedes has been around since the mid late 1800's and Toyota has been around since the early 1930's. I think each has there own history and prestige. For an auto nameplate to evolutionize is prestige to me.

Being European and growing up in Regensburg (1 of BMW's plants is there) I just viewed Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi as regular cars. I didnt drop to the ground seeing one on the road. Plus I remember alot of the cars were cloth interior, hubcaps, etc.  We currently have an Audi A6 2.0 tdi with cloth seats in the garage.

I remember coming to the states and seeing them the German 3. I realized more of the prestige. Americans dont buy one of those 3 stripped down. Even just looking at them here seemed alot different here than Germany. Yes there are alot of nice models on the road in Germany but  in the states (California) it overpasses in my views.  So I really dont see how Europeans have this prestige. Someone recently posted sales of autos from Germany and comparing it to the states, Americans buy a ton more of the higher end German cars than Germany itself.

Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

[nickdrinkwater]

Consider this, rich people buy the C180 Kompressor and equip it with leather and God knows what else. This is not bullshit. I've read the Mercedes marketing reports when I was working for them two years ago as a summer job. I was allowed to read salesmans guide to selling a C, E, S, ML and SL-Class. I am NOT bullshitting. I don't like to make up fairy tales. 

The C180 Kompressor is just as bit luxurious as a C350 if equipped properly. The only difference is in performance and fuel economy. And as yoyu should be aware, quick 0-60 times are not so important overhere as they are in North America. A 10 second 0-100 km/h is completely accepted for luxury cars in Europe. What matters is the badge and even a C180K has the Benz badge. And I am pretty sure it's the same deal in the UK. When I was in London, I saw tons of C180K and C200Ks that had high-spec equipment levels like leather, navigation, memory seats etc. Trust me, a C180K is just as prestigeous as a C350 in everything except performance.

This is like the BMW "fans" who claim that a "4-cylinder BMW is not a real BMW". These fans should be beaten and ass whooped because if they knew their BMW history, they'd see that 4-cylinders are a big and glorious part of BMW's history. Heck, BMW has even won entire racing championships with a "sissy" 4-cylinder engine.

I have to disagree Wimmer.   In London, there are far many S500s and S600s around than S320, for example.  Do people buy this because they need to do 0-60 in 5 seconds around Marble Arch?  No.  They have money to burn and want to buy what is perceived as the best they can get.

Anyway, you're missing my point.  I didn't say that the smaller engine variants weren't 'proper' Mercedes.  Just that more expensive, larger engined models were more prestigious than those cheaper variants.

If your argue was to hold water, then people would consider the A-Class to be as prestigious as an S-Class.   A CLK 55 AMG would be no more prestigious than a CLK 200.  If you think that is true, you must be pretty deluded.

Plus, how a company sees itself and how a customer sees them can be two very different things.  Since you have read many marketing reports, you surely should know that.

I accept that things might be different in Germany, but at the end of the day you can't take one example to generalise the whole of Europe, just because that's where Mercs are made.

[nickdrinkwater]

I see that Mercedes/ BMW, etc is just like the GM's, Fords, etc of America. They have been here forever and have there own history. Mercedes has been around since the mid late 1800's and Toyota has been around since the early 1930's. I think each has there own history and prestige. For an auto nameplate to evolutionize is prestige to me.

Being European and growing up in Regensburg (1 of BMW's plants is there) I just viewed Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi as regular cars. I didnt drop to the ground seeing one on the road. Plus I remember alot of the cars were cloth interior, hubcaps, etc.  We currently have an Audi A6 2.0 tdi with cloth seats in the garage.

I remember coming to the states and seeing them the German 3. I realized more of the prestige. Americans dont buy one of those 3 stripped down. Even just looking at them here seemed alot different here than Germany. Yes there are alot of nice models on the road in Germany but  in the states (California) it overpasses in my views.  So I really dont see how Europeans have this prestige. Someone recently posted sales of autos from Germany and comparing it to the states, Americans buy a ton more of the higher end German cars than Germany itself.

Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

I do agree that Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are probably not seen as luxury as they are in the US.  But they still do have a premium image.  A lot of people will pay more for what they see as a superior product, despite an A3/1 Series being much more comparatively expensive than a Ford, Toyota, Vauxhall etc.

[etypeJohn]

People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

Depends on the show.  I have shown in several multi marque shows and you get people who know more about my car than I do down to people who don't know what they are looking at until I tell them or they read the script on the bootlid.

[cawimmer430]

I have to disagree Wimmer.   In London, there are far many S500s and S600s around than S320, for example.  Do people buy this because they need to do 0-60 in 5 seconds around Marble Arch?  No.  They have money to burn and want to buy what is perceived as the best they can get.

Anyway, you're missing my point.  I didn't say that the smaller engine variants weren't 'proper' Mercedes.  Just that more expensive, larger engined models were more prestigious than those cheaper variants.

If your argue was to hold water, then people would consider the A-Class to be as prestigious as an S-Class.   A CLK 55 AMG would be no more prestigious than a CLK 200.  If you think that is true, you must be pretty deluded.

Plus, how a company sees itself and how a customer sees them can be two very different things.  Since you have read many marketing reports, you surely should know that.

I accept that things might be different in Germany, but at the end of the day you can't take one example to generalise the whole of Europe, just because that's where Mercs are made.

I should have been more specific. I am not generalizing the whole of Europe but there appears to be a large segment of consumers for whom a C180K is just as good as a C350. A C180K is a Mercedes-Benz, a C350 is a Mercedes-Benz. They're both C-Classes from a prestigeous make, the only major difference being engine and equipment levels. To most Europeans, equipment levels are not much of a big deal, especially when it comes to excessive equipment like electric seats for example. Most cars are equipped with the basic features the average European consumer wants or will need when they purchase this car. I am one of these people. I'd rather own a C180K than a C350 because it gets you from A to B just as fast and with lower costs for example.

And people with money to burn don't necessarily go for the big toys. Many rich people in my area go for an S320 CDI for example. A sleazy lawyer I know in this town has a BMW X5 3.0d and a Mercedes CLS320 CDI, the base models essentially. A Baroness in nearby T??ling has a base model Volkswagen Golf SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). A wealthy doctor has a C180 Kompressor (W203 pre-facelift) and an SL280 (R129) - and this guy could easily afford something more expensive. The point is that a lot of wealthy people don't see the need to go for something "excessive".

London is different and hard to categorize. Many S500s are owned by diplomats or foreigners, often Arabs who have the $$$ and don't care. The C180K or C200Ks I am talking about, in London, where owned by your typical Mr. John Smith Englishman in his late 60s who seems to be the a conservative fellow. I've spoken to a few of these people because I wanted to know why they bought a C180K. The answer I got was the one I gave you in my last sentence in the first paragraph.

Also, an S320 CDI is an S-Class, it is a prestigeous and luxurious vehicle. The S500 boasts more power and a few more options, but do we really need these options? The S320 CDI or S350 comes decently equipped with all the options you'd ever need. The S500 might be a little more luxurious, but prestige wise, both the S320 CDI and S500 are S-CLASSES.

I'd love to write more, but I got to post Part II and do stuff for my town.

[HurricaneSteve]

Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing.

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest 

Awesome post nick, awesome post.

[thewizard16]

To defend Wimmer I bit, I understand where he is coming from, and I have respect for Mercedes as an automotive company. Anyone who doesn't should visit their musem. However, I, I think like most American consumers with a bit of knowledge, am not willing to pay more for a car that I view as equal or inferior to a car of lesser price simply because it's from a company with an illustrious history. If I consider the cars of similar to identical quality, and they both fit my needs similarly, I will go with the less expensive car every time, especially when both are viewed as prestigious cars by the common public and I know there's little to no difference in perception (if we go from the badge image concious buyer standpoint). You can't produce cars that are about the same as everyone else and charge more for them because you did something in the past, regardless of how significant or impressive it might have been. (Toyota may very well learn this lesson soon about quality.) The only Mercedes models I feel that price is an issue with is the upper end models, or very high trim lines of each model. I feel most of them are pretty competitively priced and that it shouldn't be a major issue to the average luxury buyer.

[Raghavan]

You might not care, and that's fine, and I don't care if the average Lexus buyer doesn't care either. My problem is that these same people who don't care about the past claim that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV. And here's the problem. They make such a bullshit statement because they don't know the history of Mercedes (or Lexus or BMW etc.). Seriously, I can respect Lexus, but I cannot respect such bullshit claims that Lexus prestige and brand image is on the same level as Mercedes, because to me it is clearly not. There's not even a comparison. Lexus get's whooped thrice over.

I didn't see any Lexus fanboys here (does CarSPIn even have any?) saying that Lexus has just as good of a history as BMW or Mercedes...
And most people don't really take brand history into account when they buy a car. Prestige, sure (like my mom, she wants a 7 series. ), but not brand history, at least not here.

I apologize, I lost my cool.

Yeah, it's cool.

You have your opinion about FWD, and I can respect that. However I've seen posts were you bash a car for the sole purpose of it being FWD. That almost sounds like Car and Driver when they complain about the best times and handling of a Cadillac Escalade on the Nuremberg Ring. Maybe you can work for them.

I'd love a job at C/D.
But as I said, i've stopped coming into every thread saying that the car sucks because it's FWD and not RWD. I don't even bring up that argument anymore.

It is a difference in culture. Europeans are passionate about cars, that's no secret. The Classic Car Show I attended, the people there knew their stuff. You overhear people talk and they know the history of the cars at the show etc. I don't know about America...

I'd say that Americans know as much about cars as Europeans do, i'm just saying that maybe for Europeans, brand history is more important. I don't know really.

[LonghornTX]

Brand prestige is much more complicated than the history of the company associated with it.  It also deals with the current interpretation and impression that the brand makes on the consumer. 

It is not as easy as saying "Mercedes has been around longer, has more race wins, and has made more innovations than Lexus, therefore they are more prestigous"......

[LonghornTX]

Better go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:

huh?
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance.

To be fair, that is only a Lexus engine (and maybe transmission) in a Riley chassis, so I wouldn't give too much credit to Lexus....

[Vinsanity]

I can't accept that.

You're essentially telling me that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from a prestige POV simply because they offer a superior product. In my book, this doesn't work that way.

What are we going to do about the great past achievements of Mercedes-Benz? Just forget about them? We're just going to say that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz because they offer leather and an 8-speed automatic but are $1 million cheaper or something? Doesn't work that way in my book. Those achievements and that history is what made Mercedes a great brand. Lexus achievements cannot be compared to Mercedes.

Mercedes-Benz was an innovator, Lexus was a copier. At a time when the automobile was new, when safety features and this and that had not been developed, Mercedes-Benz was a pioneer in almost all fields whether it be engine technology, safety etc. Fast forward to 1989, Lexus is created by Toyota. Do they have to worry about safety? Or engine technology? Or this or that? No, because it has already been invented. Lexus doesn't have to invent it, they simply can afford to take it and improve on it, whatever it is. Get what I am saying? Lexus has had it so easy. Unfairly easy I should add. Their quick route to success means nothing to me, especially considering that they're significantly cheaper.

And all of a sudden Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes from an image POV because of being successful in the USA? I cannot accept that because to me, as someone who judges brand prestige based on history and achievements and global desireability, a Lexus is not even in the same class image wise as a Mercedes or a BMW or even a Skoda or Fiat.

sorry, but that's just how industry works. you develop products relevant to the market as it exists today, not try to replicate the history of another company. you can't expect Lexus to keep reinventing the wheel when they debut a new car.

if it's any consolation, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

[cawimmer430]

Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

This is one of the reasons they don't do well in Europe. They're selling American luxury in Europe, where people are bit more conscious of what is in their car. Also, the fact that Lexus vehicles are pretty much fuel inefficient for European tastes doesn't help either.

[cawimmer430]

To defend Wimmer I bit, I understand where he is coming from, and I have respect for Mercedes as an automotive company. Anyone who doesn't should visit their musem. However, I, I think like most American consumers with a bit of knowledge, am not willing to pay more for a car that I view as equal or inferior to a car of lesser price simply because it's from a company with an illustrious history. If I consider the cars of similar to identical quality, and they both fit my needs similarly, I will go with the less expensive car every time, especially when both are viewed as prestigious cars by the common public and I know there's little to no difference in perception (if we go from the badge image concious buyer standpoint). You can't produce cars that are about the same as everyone else and charge more for them because you did something in the past, regardless of how significant or impressive it might have been. (Toyota may very well learn this lesson soon about quality.) The only Mercedes models I feel that price is an issue with is the upper end models, or very high trim lines of each model. I feel most of them are pretty competitively priced and that it shouldn't be a major issue to the average luxury buyer.

Good post. I see your point and I do agree and what people buy is up to them. No doubt Lexus has their own prestige, but my point is that their prestige is nowhere on the same level as Mercedes-Benz if we examine history. Lexus might be all that in the US, but the average global citizen is not won over by a name which stands for nothing if you know what I mean.

[cawimmer430]

I didn't see any Lexus fanboys here (does CarSPIn even have any?) saying that Lexus has just as good of a history as BMW or Mercedes...
And most people don't really take brand history into account when they buy a car. Prestige, sure (like my mom, she wants a 7 series. ), but not brand history, at least not here.

TheIntrepid is a Lexus fanboy! 

I'd say that Americans know as much about cars as Europeans do, i'm just saying that maybe for Europeans, brand history is more important. I don't know really.

I think there are plenty of Americans that love the cache of a Audi, BMW or Mercedes or a European car and who feel that a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti are just superior "imitations" of these cars. It's pretty obvious that some people don't care about history, or maybe they do but they can't afford a German luxury car, hence they go for a cheaper and better equipped Japanese luxury car. There are many situations for this scenario...

[cawimmer430]

sorry, but that's just how industry works. you develop products relevant to the market as it exists today, not try to replicate the history of another company. you can't expect Lexus to keep reinventing the wheel when they debut a new car.

if it's any consolation, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

I understand, I really do, but all I am saying is that Lexus prestige is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, and will never be given the history behind Mercedes. Lexus has their own kind of prestige, but it is nowhere near the level that Mercedes is on and the reason for that is history. Lexus simply took existing ideas from Mercedes-Benz and developed their own image out of it. So what if they're better equipped or more reliable? The past achievements of a brand are a major contributing factor to the prestige levels of a brand, and Mercedes has a lot to show there.

Perhaps I can live with the general average American perception of Lexus, because it is good to know that outside of North America, Lexus is probably not seen on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV.

[HurricaneSteve]

Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

[850CSi]

Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

Even the second one had similar proportions. Otherwise, the only think I can reallly think of is that the LS is a blatant 7-Series imitation and that's BMW not MB.

[Raghavan]

TheIntrepid is a Lexus fanboy!

I think there are plenty of Americans that love the cache of a Audi, BMW or Mercedes or a European car and who feel that a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti are just superior "imitations" of these cars. It's pretty obvious that some people don't care about history, or maybe they do but they can't afford a German luxury car, hence they go for a cheaper and better equipped Japanese luxury car. There are many situations for this scenario...

I don't see how they are imitations though. They aren't like the Chinese brands, just copying the designs of another manufacturer 100%. They've been innovative too. Some cars have been close or imitations if you'd like to call it to other German designs, but Acura, Infiniti, etc aren't imitating German brands just because they were started after those companies.

[the Teuton]

Wimmer, you really need to read an essay called "Utopia Achieved" by Jean Baudrillard.  For some odd reason, you Europeans all share some similar opinion concerning what would be an American mentality.  Because it doesn't have the prestige, the history, the culture, and the style of the Europeans, it can't be as good.  But concurring with the opinions in the essay I'm forcing you to read (it's 30 pages long), American taste, while superficial, gaudy, "uncultured," and not really carrying a history, does have a place in the world.  Lexus, while Japanese, is basically an American company.  The only way it could ever be as successful as it has been is because it was designed around our tastes.  Apparently in Europe, nothing American or like it truly fits.

[HurricaneSteve]

Even the second one had similar proportions. Otherwise, the only think I can reallly think of is that the LS is a blatant 7-Series imitation and that's BMW not MB.

Outside of the rear tail light from the side profile view, how else is the LS a "blatant 7-Series" imitation? So basically Lexus is an imitation brand based off of 1 car? I see...in that case, is the latest S-Class a "blatant imitation" of the Ford Focus? I mean good lord, look at those headlights! The wheel arches! Rip off! I'll have to find pictures, but there is an M-B SUV that looks strikingly similar "proportionally" to the Toyota Highlander as well.

[cawimmer430]

Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

[HurricaneSteve]

The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

How so?

[Raghavan]

The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

Yes, because they're a luxury brand, right?
You can't blame Toyota for wanting a bit of the luxury market.  Business is business and they're going to come into the market whether you like it or not, and it is no way an imitation.

[cawimmer430]

I don't see how they are imitations though. They aren't like the Chinese brands, just copying the designs of another manufacturer 100%. They've been innovative too. Some cars have been close or imitations if you'd like to call it to other German designs, but Acura, Infiniti, etc aren't imitating German brands just because they were started after those companies.

Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

[Raghavan]

Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

Actually Lexus has no passion or soul because their cars are boring to drive. That's it.
Sure, Lexus had all the money they wanted from Toyota, but Mercedes Benz had the entire car market basically by coming out with the first car.