Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, you really need to read an essay called "Utopia Achieved" by Jean Baudrillard.  For some odd reason, you Europeans all share some similar opinion concerning what would be an American mentality.  Because it doesn't have the prestige, the history, the culture, and the style of the Europeans, it can't be as good.  But concurring with the opinions in the essay I'm forcing you to read (it's 30 pages long), American taste, while superficial, gaudy, "uncultured," and not really carrying a history, does have a place in the world.  Lexus, while Japanese, is basically an American company.  The only way it could ever be as successful as it has been is because it was designed around our tastes.  Apparently in Europe, nothing American or like it truly fits.

Got a copy of this essay?

I'm not a snobby a European, I am simply stating that this whole idea that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz (and above BMW) in terms of prestige is BULLSHIT. BULLSHIT. BMW and Mercedes have HISTORY. If we examine this history, we'll see a million things which made these companies great or gave them their name. Motorsport heritage, innovation, safety features, global appeal etc. etc. etc. How can Lexus even be considered on the same level as these two German brands if they don't even satisfy most of these criteria? Global appeal? NONE. Motorsport heritage? NONE. Innovations? FEW. Safety features? RIPPED FROM MERCEDES-BENZ. I was totally pissed off at Lexus when I saw an advertisement where they claimed to have "invented"  their Pre-Crash safety system. Total bullshit. That idea was clearly ripped from Mercedes-Benz. They even copied the name, word-for-word. Mercedes calls their's "PRE-SAFE", Lexus calls theirs "Pre-Crash". How innovative.  Guess what? Pre-Crash has the same features as Pre-Safe from Mercedes, except Lexus added a few of their own ideas to it as well. So, Lexus took an existing idea of Mercedes, improved upon it, and then releases adverts that claim that they invented this system. SCREW YOU LEXUS.

Yes, Lexus was created for America, there's no denying that and that's the reason they're flopping big time in Europe. Only the sales of the IS are keeping them in the picture, and the IS220d is totally outclassed by the A4, 3er and C-Class diesels. The IS220d doesn't even offer an automatic transmission option. The IS220d doesn't even come with the whole safety package that the IS250 comes with (it only comes with 1/3 of the safety features). Lexus has their whole European market strategy totally messed up.

[cawimmer430]

How so?

When Lexus started out, they ripped their ideas and philosophy mainly from Mercedes-Benz. They didn't target BMW or Audi (their cars handled way too poorly and had no AWD options AFAIK), their target was clearly the brand with the three-pointed-star. Except since Lexus couldn't compete against Mercedes-Benz on prestige pricing (since they had zilch), they took a different route, the Japanese route: more standard features for less money.

Only now has Lexus begun to develop their own ideals, but you can't deny where their inspiration came from. I believe the founder of Toyota or a high-ranking official, when asked about their Lexus brand said, "The greatest honor for an original (Mercedes-Benz) is a copy (Lexus)."

Enough said.

[HurricaneSteve]

Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

GM didn't invent the automobile and neither did BMW, so can we say every car either of those companies has ever produced is a rip off too? I mean wow, look at that 3-Series! 4 wheels! A trunk! A hood! Windows! A steering wheel! Seats! Holy crap, BMW sucks because they couldn't come up with the concept of the automobile before M-B did! You're right, by the time Toyota had the money to create a luxury division, there really weren't many innovations left. Considering Japan didn't have much of a car industry to begin with, how do you just create one out of thin air overnight? They made hybrids mainstream but let's not mention that because it would go against your anti-Toyota crusade right? And besides the LS, what else did Lexus rip from M-B and other companies? Does M-B suck because the new S-Class looks like a Ford Focus?

Aesthetically they do need some work but their desire to make L-Finesse their design language is a great step in the right direction. Lexus's legacy is to create the highest quality, most comfortable luxury cars around. That is their passion, that is their interpretation of the automobile. You may not care for it but that doesn't mean they lack "soul". It's just not the kind of soul you like or even want to be open minded enough to appreciate.

[cawimmer430]

Yes, because they're a luxury brand, right?

Well, YES! Toyota was inspired by Mercedes-Benz because of their global appeal and reputation. They wanted a piece of the market and hence Lexus was created. They saw that the philosophy at Mercedes-Benz was working and Lexus was Toyota's way emulating that with a few changes here and there.

You can't blame Toyota for wanting a bit of the luxury market.  Business is business and they're going to come into the market whether you like it or not, and it is no way an imitation.

I don't blame Toyota for anything, business is business. I blame the notion some people have that Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes and above BMW because that is utter bullshit. I can freely admit that Lexus has their prestige, but let's face it, it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never.

[HurricaneSteve]

When Lexus started out, they ripped their ideas and philosophy mainly from Mercedes-Benz. They didn't target BMW or Audi (their cars handled way too poorly and had no AWD options AFAIK), their target was clearly the brand with the three-pointed-star. Except since Lexus couldn't compete against Mercedes-Benz on prestige pricing (since they had zilch), they took a different route, the Japanese route: more standard features for less money.

Only now has Lexus begun to develop their own ideals, but you can't deny where their inspiration came from. I believe the founder of Toyota or a high-ranking official, when asked about their Lexus brand said, "The greatest honor for an original (Mercedes-Benz) is a copy (Lexus)."

Enough said.

So any company who desires to make the highest quality luxury car possible is ripping off Mercedes. Gotcha.

Wimmer, if you were to launch a luxury brand today from your own backyard, how would you do it? Please enlighten me on how you can do so by using absolutely zero ideas from other auto companies that have been in place for over 100 years.

[cawimmer430]

GM didn't invent the automobile and neither did BMW, so can we say every car either of those companies has ever produced is a rip off too? I mean wow, look at that 3-Series! 4 wheels! A trunk! A hood! Windows! A steering wheel! Seats! Holy crap, BMW sucks because they couldn't come up with the concept of the automobile before M-B did! You're right, by the time Toyota had the money to create a luxury division, there really weren't many innovations left. Considering Japan didn't have much of a car industry to begin with, how do you just create one out of thin air overnight? They made hybrids mainstream but let's not mention that because it would go against your anti-Toyota crusade right? And besides the LS, what else did Lexus rip from M-B and other companies? Does M-B suck because the new S-Class looks like a Ford Focus?

Where do I claim that other car companies "suck"  because they didn't invent the automobile before Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler did? Where? Please point that out to me. 

My problem with Lexus is this whole notion that they're on the same level with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige point of view. How often do I have to repeat myself. Mercedes-Benz literally began in 1886, Lexus in 1989. From 1886 until now, Mercedes has brought us many interesting cars, features, classics, innovations in motorsport that filtered down into the mainstream car etc. There's a lot of history between 1886 and 2007. Lexus? 1989-2007. Please tell me things that Lexus has done that would put them on the same level as Mercedes (and above BMW) in terms of prestige. What have they done?

All they did was shake up the US luxury market with cheaper and better equipped and more reliable cars. That hardly justifies the impression that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes. The clueless fanboys who think that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and then give me some bullshit answer are pissing me off.

Aesthetically they do need some work but their desire to make L-Finesse their design language is a great step in the right direction. Lexus's legacy is to create the highest quality, most comfortable luxury cars around. That is their passion, that is their interpretation of the automobile. You may not care for it but that doesn't mean they lack "soul". It's just not the kind of soul you like or even want to be open minded enough to appreciate.

Yes, Lexus is coming out with their own design language and that's a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that they'll never be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or Bentley or Rolls Royce etc. when it comes to prestige. Old world luxury cars with a lot of history simply destroy Lexus in that area. Do you think a Bentley customer actually cares about a Lexus? The Lexus might be technically more advanced, it might be more reliable, it might be cheaper, but what does the Lexus name mean in comparison against Bentley or Rolls Royce? It means jack shit here. People who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce clearly care about the status and the brand image the car gives them, to a high degree, that's also true with shoppers of Mercedes or BMW or Aston Martin or Jaguar. These cars have status because of their history and their achievements. Lexus is achieving at the moment, but their achievements pale in comparison to these old European brands and that's the reason Lexus will never have the status or prestige that the European brands have and will always have due to their history.

And personally I think the L-Finesse design is bland as sin.

[HurricaneSteve]

Well, YES! Toyota was inspired by Mercedes-Benz because of their global appeal and reputation. They wanted a piece of the market and hence Lexus was created. They saw that the philosophy at Mercedes-Benz was working and Lexus was Toyota's way emulating that with a few changes here and there.


I don't blame Toyota for anything, business is business. I blame the notion some people have that Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes and above BMW because that is utter bullshit. I can freely admit that Lexus has their prestige, but let's face it, it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never.

Great Britain has more history than the United States (heck, Americans even "copied" the British) but I think it's clear who has more "prestige" in the world today. The world is ever changing and you can't rest on your laurels or you will get passed by. I'm just surprised that someone of your thinking ability makes such a closed-minded statement such as "it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never." Wasn't it the M-B CEO that once said Toyota would never ever pass up D-C to take the #3 position in worldwide sales?

[cawimmer430]

So any company who desires to make the highest quality luxury car possible is ripping off Mercedes. Gotcha.

I said they started out by ripping ideas from Mercedes and I never said other manufacturers copied Mercedes. There's a rule in business that says that if something is invented, it will be copied.

Yet, BMW started out as a manufacturer of aircraft engines. Cadillac started out as America's first luxury brand along with Duesenberg, Studebaker, Lincoln, Imperial etc. I don't think these companies copied Mercedes directly, they simply started out and did THEIR THING and had their own ideas.

Lexus started out by BLATANTLY COPYING Mercedes-Benz in their philosophy and dare I say some design cues. I always wondered how they got away with the older Lexus GS (Toyota Aristo) which was such a blatant E-Class copy. I'm surprised Mercedes didn't sue them. Heck, even the Lexus names are a blatant copy of the Mercedes numbering and lettering system.

Wimmer, if you were to launch a luxury brand today from your own backyard, how would you do it? Please enlighten me on how you can do so by using absolutely zero ideas from other auto companies that have been in place for over 100 years.

If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

[HurricaneSteve]

Where do I claim that other car companies "suck"  because they didn't invent the automobile before Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler did? Where? Please point that out to me. 

My problem with Lexus is this whole notion that they're on the same level with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige point of view. How often do I have to repeat myself. Mercedes-Benz literally began in 1886, Lexus in 1989. From 1886 until now, Mercedes has brought us many interesting cars, features, classics, innovations in motorsport that filtered down into the mainstream car etc. There's a lot of history between 1886 and 2007. Lexus? 1989-2007. Please tell me things that Lexus has done that would put them on the same level as Mercedes (and above BMW) in terms of prestige. What have they done?

All they did was shake up the US luxury market with cheaper and better equipped and more reliable cars. That hardly justifies the impression that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes. The clueless fanboys who think that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and then give me some bullshit answer are pissing me off.

Yes, Lexus is coming out with their own design language and that's a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that they'll never be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or Bentley or Rolls Royce etc. when it comes to prestige. Old world luxury cars with a lot of history simply destroy Lexus in that area. Do you think a Bentley customer actually cares about a Lexus? The Lexus might be technically more advanced, it might be more reliable, it might be cheaper, but what does the Lexus name mean in comparison against Bentley or Rolls Royce? It means jack shit here. People who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce clearly care about the status and the brand image the car gives them, to a high degree, that's also true with shoppers of Mercedes or BMW or Aston Martin or Jaguar. These cars have status because of their history and their achievements. Lexus is achieving at the moment, but their achievements pale in comparison to these old European brands and that's the reason Lexus will never have the status or prestige that the European brands have and will always have due to their history.

And personally I think the L-Finesse design is bland as sin.

Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

The thing is I'm not even a Lexus fan...and M-B's make me puke whenever I see them.

[TheIntrepid]

Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

The thing is I'm not even a Lexus fan...and M-B's make me puke whenever I see them.

Don't you drive an IS350?

[Raghavan]

If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

Much easier said than done, man.

[cawimmer430]

Great Britain has more history than the United States (heck, Americans even "copied" the British) but I think it's clear who has more "prestige" in the world today. The world is ever changing and you can't rest on your laurels or you will get passed by. I'm just surprised that someone of your thinking ability makes such a closed-minded statement such as "it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never." Wasn't it the M-B CEO that once said Toyota would never ever pass up D-C to take the #3 position in worldwide sales?

I don't think you're understanding my thinking. My point is always that the past history of Mercedes or BMW has given these companies a prestige advantage over Lexus or any other newcomer. Is Infiniti more prestigeous than BMW simply for offering more reliable, better equipped and cheaper cars? Hell no. When Lexus is 1,000 years old, then Mercedes is 1,100 years old. During this time, you can rest assured that Mercedes will be innovating or bringing products to the market along with Lexus that will increase both their prestige. However, the accumulated prestige will always favor Mercedes because they're older and that gives them the lead. Even if Lexus or Mercedes products in the year 2345 are dead equal to each other, in my mind, Mercedes will always have the edge because of their achievements in an era where Lexus wasn't even around. GET WHAT I AM SAYING?

Here's my thinking in simple terms.

Mercedes-Benz
1886
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007


Lexus
1989
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007

[Raghavan]

I get that Lexus has less prestige than the others but I don't understand how they're imitating the others anymore. Sure, they're "imitating" by offering a luxury car, but that's about it.

[HurricaneSteve]

I said they started out by ripping ideas from Mercedes and I never said other manufacturers copied Mercedes. There's a rule in business that says that if something is invented, it will be copied.

Yet, BMW started out as a manufacturer of aircraft engines. Cadillac started out as America's first luxury brand along with Duesenberg, Studebaker, Lincoln, Imperial etc. I don't think these companies copied Mercedes directly, they simply started out and did THEIR THING and had their own ideas.

Lexus started out by BLATANTLY COPYING Mercedes-Benz in their philosophy and dare I say some design cues. I always wondered how they got away with the older Lexus GS (Toyota Aristo) which was such a blatant E-Class copy. I'm surprised Mercedes didn't sue them. Heck, even the Lexus names are a blatant copy of the Mercedes numbering and lettering system.

If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

What exactly is M-B's philosophy? Build ugly, overpriced cars that last 2 months before going to the junkyard? I'm not sure about Lexus now, but the original LS was designed to be an engineering marvel which it was for a luxury car.

GS being a blatant E-Class copy? Really?

Lexus GS from 1991:



Mercedes E-Class from the same year:



What are some of these ideas for your luxury company? If it has 4 wheels, a trunk, a steering wheel, you do realize you're being a blatant copy since the automobile has in place for over 100 years, right? Are they going to ride soft? Mercedes, Buick, and Lexus already have that covered. Sporty RWD? BMW or Infiniti copy. AWD? Audi. FWD? Acura. Come up with an exterior design and I bet I can find at least a dozen cars it's a "blatant copy" of. Every company "rips" off another, yet when any company but Lexus does it, they are "inspired" or "using design cues", yet when Lexus does it, they are "total rip offs".

[cawimmer430]

Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

I think I have valid arguments and I am backing them up with my opinions and insights. 

And FYI, it's the other way around. The achivements of Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce or Ferrari pale in comparison to Daimler-Benz.

And anyone who knows their Mercedes history will know that the taxi aspect was one of the biggest enhancers of their prestige.

[cawimmer430]

I get that Lexus has less prestige than the others but I don't understand how they're imitating the others anymore. Sure, they're "imitating" by offering a luxury car, but that's about it.

I said their lately adding their own ideas to their brand. My point was that they started out imitating Mercedes-Benz philosophy.

[HurricaneSteve]

Don't you drive an IS350?

Nope, 2000 Honda Civic that my sister sold me when she went to Iraq after my Sentra got totalled. Looking at a bunch of different cars after I graduate this fall though.

[Raghavan]

I said their lately adding their own ideas to their brand. My point was that they started out imitating Mercedes-Benz philosophy.

Sure, selling luxury cars. How is that a bad thing? In that case, every other auto manufacturer, luxury or not, copied MB.

[the Teuton]

Wimmer, I can't find the essay, but it was originally written in French by a Frenchman.  I just sold my lit book yesterday.  I'm sure it's an easy find in Europe at Borders or Barnes and Noble or whatever you have.

[cawimmer430]

What exactly is M-B's philosophy? Build ugly, overpriced cars that last 2 months before going to the junkyard? I'm not sure about Lexus now, but the original LS was designed to be an engineering marvel which it was for a luxury car.

GS being a blatant E-Class copy? Really?

Lexus GS from 1991:



Mercedes E-Class from the same year:



What are some of these ideas for your luxury company? If it has 4 wheels, a trunk, a steering wheel, you do realize you're being a blatant copy since the automobile has in place for over 100 years, right? Are they going to ride soft? Mercedes, Buick, and Lexus already have that covered. Sporty RWD? BMW or Infiniti copy. AWD? Audi. FWD? Acura. Come up with an exterior design and I bet I can find at least a dozen cars it's a "blatant copy" of. Every company "rips" off another, yet when any company but Lexus does it, they are "inspired" or "using design cues", yet when Lexus does it, they are "total rip offs".

Are you getting what I am trying to tell you? I'm wasting my time talking here because you don't seem to get it. I said Lexus started out COPYING Mercedes philosophy and to a degree some design trends. I guess that would also mean Toyota since the Toyota Aristo was a Lexus GS.

By the way, the fact that Lexus started out using rebadged Toyota's is another reason why their prestige level is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW or Fiat or Citroen or Renault or Alfa Romeo or whatever company that had ORIGINAL designs when they started out.

This is what I am talking about by the way.






You know, some dumbass Lexus fanboys on another forum claimed that Mercedes ripped off the four-eyed design from Lexus. Sure. 

[HurricaneSteve]

I don't think you're understanding my thinking. My point is always that the past history of Mercedes or BMW has given these companies a prestige advantage over Lexus or any other newcomer. Is Infiniti more prestigeous than BMW simply for offering more reliable, better equipped and cheaper cars? Hell no. When Lexus is 1,000 years old, then Mercedes is 1,100 years old. During this time, you can rest assured that Mercedes will be innovating or bringing products to the market along with Lexus that will increase both their prestige. However, the accumulated prestige will always favor Mercedes because they're older and that gives them the lead. Even if Lexus or Mercedes products in the year 2345 are dead equal to each other, in my mind, Mercedes will always have the edge because of their achievements in an era where Lexus wasn't even around. GET WHAT I AM SAYING?

Here's my thinking in simple terms.

Mercedes-Benz
1886
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007


Lexus
1989
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007

History alone isn't what determines prestige in my opinion. It's history and what you are doing now that does that but if you're going to judge a company based on what they have or have not done the last 100 years, be my guest.

[Raghavan]

They aren't really rebadged Toyotas because they're just  based on the same platform but have totally different interiors and exteriors.

[cawimmer430]

And one more thing.

Lexus is also incredibly overrated in some regards. I like how the press praises the IS for a "quality interior" when in reality, the IS interior is hunk of cheap plastics mixed together and colored silver to give the impression of a sporty quality interior. Doesn't work on me. I've sat in this car at a Lexus show and the interior screamed cheap as shit to me. I'm no dashstroaker, but the IS is overrated in that department. The only car in this class with an even worse interior is the BMW 3-Series. Heck, the IS has a better interior than the 3er, but it's still cheap as crap.

Also, I recently sat in the new LS460 at the local Toyota-Lexus dealership, but I was not allowed to take pictures of the car inside or out. Anyway, compared to the Audi A8 or the S-Class, the LS interior is also overrated, heavily overrated. Cheap plastics in a tacky silver color and a terrible design too that lacks any sort of elegance most buyers demand in this class.

[cawimmer430]

History alone isn't what determines prestige in my opinion. It's history and what you are doing now that does that but if you're going to judge a company based on what they have or have not done the last 100 years, be my guest.

Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE?

[Raghavan]

Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE?

No, not really. I'm more interested in what the company is doing now, not what they've done 100 years before.

[HurricaneSteve]

Are you getting what I am trying to tell you? I'm wasting my time talking here because you don't seem to get it. I said Lexus started out COPYING Mercedes philosophy and to a degree some design trends. I guess that would also mean Toyota since the Toyota Aristo was a Lexus GS.

By the way, the fact that Lexus started out using rebadged Toyota's is another reason why their prestige level is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW or Fiat or Citroen or Renault or Alfa Romeo or whatever company that had ORIGINAL designs when they started out.

This is what I am talking about by the way.






You know, some dumbass Lexus fanboys on another forum claimed that Mercedes ripped off the four-eyed design from Lexus. Sure. 

Actually I must be one of those dumbass Lexus fanboys (who doesn't even really like Lexus) because I still don't get what you're trying to say. What M-B philosophies did Lexus "rip off"? As for the GS, this car came out before that E-Class did:



You don't think maybe they were trying to create a single design language across the board, do you? Oh wait, scratch that, since it's Lexus everything they do is a rip off.

[cawimmer430]

They aren't really rebadged Toyotas because they're just  based on the same platform but have totally different interiors and exteriors.

This is what they started out as.

Wow, this company is so prestigeous...

TOYOTA


LEXUS



TOYOTA


LEXUS



TOYOTA


LEXUS



TOYOTA


LEXUS



TOYOTA


LEXUS




TOYOTA


LEXUS



TOYOTA


LEXUS



DID I MISS ANYTHING?

[cawimmer430]

No, not really. I'm more interested in what the company is doing now, not what they've done 100 years before.

So just because Lexus is doing good now, they are on the same level as BMW or Mercedes? 

That's exactly what I am trying to discredit because that is simply not true. The achievements of the past are a major source of where a companies prestige comes from. These guys had to start out too and they did it in style etc.

Casio watches are more reliable, easier to use and cheaper than Rolex watches. Casio's outsell Rolex watches by the millions. Is Casio more prestigeous than Rolex? Is Casio on the same prestige level with Rolex? NO.

Same damn thing with Lexus and Mercedes.

[HurricaneSteve]

Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE?

No I don't agree. I would attribute this "big edge" over Lexus on a worldwide level to more expressive design and a larger number of trim and engine choices. Most buyers of these cars could care less what that company did 100 or even 10 years ago. If they don't have the car optioned out in the manner that customers want now, they'll go elsewhere. All Lexus has to do, IMHO, is offer more variety and bolder exterior design and their worldwide sales will increase dramatically. Toyota is finally starting to make headway in Europe and was one of the top selling brands in Australia too, I believe.

[cawimmer430]

Actually I must be one of those dumbass Lexus fanboys (who doesn't even really like Lexus) because I still don't get what you're trying to say. What M-B philosophies did Lexus "rip off"? As for the GS, this car came out before that E-Class did:



You don't think maybe they were trying to create a single design language across the board, do you? Oh wait, scratch that, since it's Lexus everything they do is a rip off.

Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota....