Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[HurricaneSteve]

So just because Lexus is doing good now, they are on the same level as BMW or Mercedes? 

That's exactly what I am trying to discredit because that is simply not true. The achievements of the past are a major source of where a companies prestige comes from. These guys had to start out too and they did it in style etc.

Casio watches are more reliable, easier to use and cheaper than Rolex watches. Casio's outsell Rolex watches by the millions. Is Casio more prestigeous than Rolex? Is Casio on the same prestige level with Rolex? NO.

Same damn thing with Lexus and Mercedes.

GM has more history than Toyota, yet Toyota is now #1. I'd say most people would equate Toyota at the very least being on the same level as GM, if not higher.

Your Casio/Rolex comparison is terrible because Rolexes cost thousands more than Casios and they're targeted to different markets.

[Raghavan]

Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota....

But that SC came out before that E class.

[cawimmer430]

No I don't agree. I would attribute this "big edge" over Lexus on a worldwide level to more expressive design and a larger number of trim and engine choices. Most buyers of these cars could care less what that company did 100 or even 10 years ago. If they don't have the car optioned out in the manner that customers want now, they'll go elsewhere. All Lexus has to do, IMHO, is offer more variety and bolder exterior design and their worldwide sales will increase dramatically. Toyota is finally starting to make headway in Europe and was one of the top selling brands in Australia too, I believe.

Most buyers these days care more about value, true. But that still doesn't put Lexus on the same level as BMW or Mercedes. What's so hard about understanding that?

Also, global success for this brand won't happen overnight. Lexus sales are poor in Europe not only because they offer zero engine and trim choices, their cars don't appeal to Europeans. Someone with money in Europe wants to spend their cash on a known luxury car with brand image. And Lexus doesn't fit the bill. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Lexus flopping in Japan too? I did a case study on Japan once in college for a market entry project and one of the discoveries was that the wealthy Japanese are very image conscious. In terms of practical luxury cars, that means mostly BMW, Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes. I guess we can add Audi to that list nowadays as well. Lexus? Not even on the list.

[HurricaneSteve]

Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota....

Actually the 2nd generation GS came out in 1997.

And I'm sorry, it's this condescending attitude that makes me have a difficult time loving German cars. There are a few I like but it's the snobbish owners who think anything that is non-German is below them that really piss me off. I don't blame Raza one bit, despite our philisophical differences, for never buying a BMW. No matter how good the cars are, the owners really rub s**t all over the brand.

[cawimmer430]

GM has more history than Toyota, yet Toyota is now #1. I'd say most people would equate Toyota at the very least being on the same level as GM, if not higher.

Your Casio/Rolex comparison is terrible because Rolexes cost thousands more than Casios and they're targeted to different markets.

Most people without a clue of GM's history (or Toyota) would equate Toyota as being on the same level as GM. Same deal with the luxury cars we're discussing. I think car enthusiasts would think differently, especially real enthusiasts.

[HurricaneSteve]

Most buyers these days care more about value, true. But that still doesn't put Lexus on the same level as BMW or Mercedes. What's so hard about understanding that?

Also, global success for this brand won't happen overnight. Lexus sales are poor in Europe not only because they offer zero engine and trim choices, their cars don't appeal to Europeans. Someone with money in Europe wants to spend their cash on a known luxury car with brand image. And Lexus doesn't fit the bill. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Lexus flopping in Japan too? I did a case study on Japan once in college for a market entry project and one of the discoveries was that the wealthy Japanese are very image conscious. In terms of practical luxury cars, that means mostly BMW, Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes. I guess we can add Audi to that list nowadays as well. Lexus? Not even on the list.

So you're basing the tastes of Japanese luxury car owners on the fact that Lexus is about 1 year old in Japan. Sound research I'd say.

[HurricaneSteve]

Most people without a clue of GM's history (or Toyota) would equate Toyota as being on the same level as GM. Same deal with the luxury cars we're discussing. I think car enthusiasts would think differently, especially real enthusiasts.

Right, real enthusiasts who condemn others for car choices different from their own. People that we all want to be just like.

[cawimmer430]

But that SC came out before that E class.

You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights...

[Raghavan]

You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights...

They're rectangular.

[HurricaneSteve]

You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights...

And this came out in 1973. Who's copying who now?

[Raghavan]

[HurricaneSteve]

Wait wait, I have more.



1975.



1992.

I see that all car manufacturers are original and have never "borrowed" design cues from another, ever.

[cawimmer430]

Actually the 2nd generation GS came out in 1997.

And I'm sorry, it's this condescending attitude that makes me have a difficult time loving German cars. There are a few I like but it's the snobbish owners who think anything that is non-German is below them that really piss me off. I don't blame Raza one bit, despite our philisophical differences, for never buying a BMW. No matter how good the cars are, the owners really rub s**t all over the brand.

What's wrong with pointing out the truth? The early Lexus' were rebadged Toyota's. And now people are telling me that Lexus is on the same prestige level as Mercedes and above BMW? LMAO. 

Yeah, I'm loosing my cool because I simply don't agree that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and above BMW. BMW has more history and has achieved more during their existence than Lexus. Lexus has had it so easy. They carefully studied the luxury market in the US before entering it and hence their success. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a cheaper car with more options will sell better. That has been one of Lexus' strongest points and one of the major reasons their cars sell.

And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European... 

[cawimmer430]

So you're basing the tastes of Japanese luxury car owners on the fact that Lexus is about 1 year old in Japan. Sound research I'd say.

Let's put it this way. In time, Lexus will probably appeal more and more to the Japanese. But the Japanese still associate "foreign products" as more luxurious, especially a company like Mercedes or BMW who have a powerful and prestigeous history.

[cawimmer430]

They're rectangular.

[Raghavan]

And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European...

No offense, but it's kind of true. All you've been doing is putting down Lexus. OK, so they didn't have it as hard as MB, but according to you, if history and prestige is all that matters, then how'd Lexus become so popular? No one would've bought their stuff because according to you, they have no prestige or history, and the fact that they succeeded is no small feat, no matter what you think.

[HurricaneSteve]

What's wrong with pointing out the truth? The early Lexus' were rebadged Toyota's. And now people are telling me that Lexus is on the same prestige level as Mercedes and above BMW? LMAO. 

Yeah, I'm loosing my cool because I simply don't agree that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and above BMW. BMW has more history and has achieved more during their existence than Lexus. Lexus has had it so easy. They carefully studied the luxury market in the US before entering it and hence their success. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a cheaper car with more options will sell better. That has been one of Lexus' strongest points and one of the major reasons their cars sell.

And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European... 

So if Lexus cars are rebadged Toyotas, are you insinuating that Toyota had it easy? They originally made textiles, their home country was nuked twice, and had to overcome a reputation of cheap, poorly built, throwaway cars for years. Toyota/Lexus has had anything but an easy path. People want to think of Toyota and Lexus as the same when it's convenient to support their argument, separate them when it's not. Which is it?

Wimmer, read your posts and find a reason why someone might NOT think you're a "snobby aristocratic European".

[cawimmer430]

And this came out in 1973. Who's copying who now?

Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok. 

1951


1954


Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood?

[HurricaneSteve]

Let's put it this way. In time, Lexus will probably appeal more and more to the Japanese. But the Japanese still associate "foreign products" as more luxurious, especially a company like Mercedes or BMW who have a powerful and prestigeous history.

I'm sure they will. By the way, how is VW doing in Japan?

[HurricaneSteve]

Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok. 

1951


1954


Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood?

So does that make Jaguar a rip off of M-B?

[cawimmer430]

No offense, but it's kind of true. All you've been doing is putting down Lexus. OK, so they didn't have it as hard as MB, but according to you, if history and prestige is all that matters, then how'd Lexus become so popular? No one would've bought their stuff because according to you, they have no prestige or history, and the fact that they succeeded is no small feat, no matter what you think.

I don't think I've been really putting down Lexus in this thread. Like I said earlier, they studied the American luxury market before they entered. They studied the technical and service mistakes and faults of the Europeans. They priced their cars right. They offered more for less money. They made sure they hired friendly folks for their dealers. They made sure the dealership waiting lounge had condom dispensors, a coffee machine and God knows what else ( ). Doesn't take a genius to figure out why they did so well in the US.

Now take Lexus in Europe. Better equipped and cheaper. They're flopping. European customers with the money to spend rank Lexus down there with Cadillac. Last on the shopping list.

And about the LS600h, let's be honest. 330 liters of trunk space and 200 kg of load capacity? That's just embarassing and somewhat of a rip off. No wait, it is a rip off. What happens when an overweight American who lives next to Burger King or MacDonalds wants to buy this car and bring his fat and overweight wive and kids along? 

[cawimmer430]

So if Lexus cars are rebadged Toyotas, are you insinuating that Toyota had it easy? They originally made textiles, their home country was nuked twice, and had to overcome a reputation of cheap, poorly built, throwaway cars for years. Toyota/Lexus has had anything but an easy path. People want to think of Toyota and Lexus as the same when it's convenient to support their argument, separate them when it's not. Which is it?

Wimmer, read your posts and find a reason why someone might NOT think you're a "snobby aristocratic European".

Well then, how about BMW or Mercedes-Benz then? After World War II, over 75% of Mercedes factories were bombed. BMW lost one of their largest production facilities in East Germany to the Soviets. Both BMW and Mercedes-Benz were on the verge of bankruptcy. Both BMW and Mercedes used slave labor. The same thing applied to Toyota. Their factories were bombed, they used POW's or slaves in horrible working conditons and they were on the verge of bankruptcy (well into the early 1950s). All three of these companies were stuck in the shit after World War II. 

I'm trying to be objective and non-biased here and I think I am doing a decent job. I am backing up my claims as to why I think Lexus doesn't compare in terms of prestige. 

[cawimmer430]

I'm sure they will. By the way, how is VW doing in Japan?

No idea. If you're hinting at their performance compared to Toyota, then without question, Toyota is leading sales in Japan.

Same thing in Germany: VWs outsell Toyota's in this market big time.

Domestic first.

Not the case with luxury cars in Japan it seems.

[Raghavan]

Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok.

1951


1954


Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood?

Those look more like foglights instead of real 4 eyed designs.

[cawimmer430]

So does that make Jaguar a rip off of M-B?

Of course not.

But I find it extremely hard to believe that Toyota came up with the front of their Aristo just like that, especially when they were watching Mercedes closely at the time in question (for their Lexus brand). And let's not forget, the Japanese have never been original in terms of design with a few exceptions. Notice how the Japanese cars in the 1950s until the early 1980s were virtually inspired by American designs, in small cases European.

The Toyota 2000GT was designed by a German for God's sake (Albrecht Goertz), originally for Datsun I believe. Datsun refused to build it, but Toyota snapped up the design.

[HurricaneSteve]

Well then, how about BMW or Mercedes-Benz then? After World War II, over 75% of Mercedes factories were bombed. BMW lost one of their largest production facilities in East Germany to the Soviets. Both BMW and Mercedes-Benz were on the verge of bankruptcy. Both BMW and Mercedes used slave labor. The same thing applied to Toyota. Their factories were bombed, they used POW's or slaves in horrible working conditons and they were on the verge of bankruptcy (well into the early 1950s). All three of these companies were stuck in the shit after World War II. 

I'm trying to be objective and non-biased here and I think I am doing a decent job. I am backing up my claims as to why I think Lexus doesn't compare in terms of prestige. 

Mercedes had an automotive history for 50 years prior to that. Germany was also already a highly industrialized nation for many years prior. I'm not a fan of Japan the country but they were pretty traditional prior to the war.

And no, you haven't been very objective or non-biased in this thread. You do have some points but refuse to acknowledge anyone else's who doesn't agree with you. Like I said before, I really liked reading your articles on C&D and Automobear awhile back and thought you had a great future in the automotive industry but this new Wimmer sounds like nothing more than an advertisement for Mercedes and anything anti-Toyota/Lexus.

[cawimmer430]

Those look more like foglights instead of real 4 eyed designs.

Does it matter? They're positioned so close together the design could pass for a four eyed look.

Like I said, it's a silly game. I did back up my opinion and thoughts on the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS in my last post.

[HurricaneSteve]

No idea. If you're hinting at their performance compared to Toyota, then without question, Toyota is leading sales in Japan.

Same thing in Germany: VWs outsell Toyota's in this market big time.

Domestic first.

Not the case with luxury cars in Japan it seems.

Maybe because prior to last year there were no Japanese luxury cars in Japan in the first place?

[cawimmer430]

Mercedes had an automotive history for 50 years prior to that. Germany was also already a highly industrialized nation for many years prior. I'm not a fan of Japan the country but they were pretty traditional prior to the war.

And no, you haven't been very objective or non-biased in this thread. You do have some points but refuse to acknowledge anyone else's who doesn't agree with you. Like I said before, I really liked reading your articles on C&D and Automobear awhile back and thought you had a great future in the automotive industry but this new Wimmer sounds like nothing more than an advertisement for Mercedes and anything anti-Toyota/Lexus.

Germany was virtually bombed to ruins by 1945 and the occupying Allies forbade mass industrialization until well into the mid to late 1950s (ever hear of the Wirtschaftswunder?).

My refusing to accept your or other ideas has to do with me being convinced of own beliefs. And I think I've backed up enough WHY I think this. Lexus is a great brand and their future is bright, but so is BMW or Mercedes. And both BMW and Mercedes have a past history Lexus can never hope to match. Do you agree?

Lexus can only match the current history of these brands and yes they're doing well, but BMW and Mercedes are improving from the dark days of the mid 1990s and the future looks bright for all three.

Despite this, BMW and Mercedes still have the edge in terms of history and thus prestige. My logic. Especially since their past achievements are something most carmakers would envy. You agree?

[HurricaneSteve]

Of course not.

But I find it extremely hard to believe that Toyota came up with the front of their Aristo just like that, especially when they were watching Mercedes closely at the time in question (for their Lexus brand). And let's not forget, the Japanese have never been original in terms of design with a few exceptions. Notice how the Japanese cars in the 1950s until the early 1980s were virtually inspired by American designs, in small cases European.

The Toyota 2000GT was designed by a German for God's sake (Albrecht Goertz), originally for Datsun I believe. Datsun refused to build it, but Toyota snapped up the design.

Yet you didn't acknowledge the picture of the SC which had a "4 headlight" design. The new Mustang was designed by a Vietnamese man, and the latest Viper was designed by an Asian guy as well. Pininfarina had a Japanese guy work there for a number of years. Does that mean they're Asian designs?

And when cars from manufacturers in the same country or region start to look alike, is that any better than a company from another country "ripping off" the design?