Edmunds: LS600h L is "tough to justify"

[cawimmer430]

Maybe because prior to last year there were no Japanese luxury cars in Japan in the first place?

I think Lexus will catch on eventually, but let's face it, the Japanese are amongst some of the most image conscious luxury car buyers in the world and that's a big problem for Lexus or any other new luxury brand.

There was an article about a year ago on Business Week about how the wealthy Japanese, despite the appealing techno gadgetry in their Lexus', still prefer mostly German luxury cars simply because they feel that these cars are a demonstration of status, power and prestige. Why? Because the history of say Mercedes of BMW is well known globally, especially of the former. Can a Lexus offer the same thing in Japan for example? Status? Probably not. Power? An expensive car, but "cheap" compared to its German competition. Prestige. Absolutely not. Too new and unproven. The least a Lexus can do in Japan is make his owner feel good that he has a car that is better equipped and cheaper than the German competition.

[HurricaneSteve]

Germany was virtually bombed to ruins by 1945 and the occupying Allies forbade mass industrialization until well into the mid to late 1950s (ever hear of the Wirtschaftswunder?).

My refusing to accept your or other ideas has to do with me being convinced of own beliefs. And I think I've backed up enough WHY I think this. Lexus is a great brand and their future is bright, but so is BMW or Mercedes. And both BMW and Mercedes have a past history Lexus can never hope to match. Do you agree?

Lexus can only match the current history of these brands and yes they're doing well, but BMW and Mercedes are improving from the dark days of the mid 1990s and the future looks bright for all three.

Despite this, BMW and Mercedes still have the edge in terms of history and thus prestige. My logic. Especially since their past achievements are something most carmakers would envy. You agree?

I agree all 3 manufacturers have bright futures. Yes, Lexus at this point in time cannot match M-B and BMW's history simply because they were around longer and the German marques have made great contributions to the automobile industry. However, I don't agree that Lexus/Toyota will NEVER match because you don't know what automotive technologies have yet to be discovered. You don't know what products they have coming down the pipeline. And at this point there isn't much that separates the 3 companies in the segments they compete in. A few more features or creases here and there and either one can be the top dog. But the past is the past. I don't live in the past and I don't think alot of people do or want to. The future is where it's at and that's what everyone is pushing to be successful in.

In my opinion, history does not equate to prestige. In my opinion, there is a double standard because the US/German manufacturers can rip off whatever designs they want, yet when a Japanese or Korean company does the same thing, their entire existence is is a lie, a fake, a copy.

[cawimmer430]

Yet you didn't acknowledge the picture of the SC which had a "4 headlight" design. The new Mustang was designed by a Vietnamese man, and the latest Viper was designed by an Asian guy as well. Pininfarina had a Japanese guy work there for a number of years. Does that mean they're Asian designs?

And when cars from manufacturers in the same country or region start to look alike, is that any better than a company from another country "ripping off" the design?

What's there to say about the Lexus SC? It's got a four eyed design with the biggest difference being the two central lights, which are circular. The outer two are not.

I don't usually accuse other carmakers of copying. I personally think it is silly and childish, honestly. But in the case of the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS, it just smells suspicious and I've given my reasons why. During this time, Lexus was still watching Mercedes very closely.

Does it matter which country the designer came from? Many of the Mercedes' in the 1960s and 1970s were designed by Paul Bracq, a Frenchman. Beginning in the 1980s until around 1999, Bruno Sacco took over (an Italian). The current Mercedes design chief, Peter Pfeiffer, is German. And yet, a Mercedes W123 from 1976 is referred to as "Germanic / Teutonic" looking.

The new Ford Mustang still looks like a typical "American retro design", despite a Vietnamese guy having styled it as you claim. The Toyota 2000 GT looks very European if you have not noticed, almost like an Opel GT. I don't know what I am trying to say with that last sentence...

[cawimmer430]

I agree all 3 manufacturers have bright futures. Yes, Lexus at this point in time cannot match M-B and BMW's history simply because they were around longer and the German marques have made great contributions to the automobile industry. However, I don't agree that Lexus/Toyota will NEVER match because you don't know what automotive technologies have yet to be discovered. You don't know what products they have coming down the pipeline. And at this point there isn't much that separates the 3 companies in the segments they compete in. A few more features or creases here and there and either one can be the top dog. But the past is the past. I don't live in the past and I don't think alot of people do or want to. The future is where it's at and that's what everyone is pushing to be successful in.

In my opinion, history does not equate to prestige. In my opinion, there is a double standard because the US/German manufacturers can rip off whatever designs they want, yet when a Japanese or Korean company does the same thing, their entire existence is is a lie, a fake, a copy.

Think of it this way. I even said this earlier. Let's say Lexus matches BMW and Mercedes in the year 2050. On a prestige scale of 10, everyone has a 10 right now, just as an example.


It's...

Lexus 10/10

BMW 10/10

Mercedes 10/10


But, BMW and Mercedes have been around much longer than Lexus. So we look back into time and we...

1) Factor in a classic 1954 BMW 502 V8 sedan for example.

or

2) For Mercedes, we factor in the top three victory placings in the 1938 Grand Prix de Tripoli (1st: lang, 2nd: von Brauchitsch, 3rd: Caracciola).


Now the prestige scale looks like this:

Lexus 10/10

BMW 11/10

Mercedes 11/10


Repeat this with other achievements and you instantly have Lexus left behind big time in the overall prestige department. That's basically much of what I was trying to say.

[HurricaneSteve]

What's there to say about the Lexus SC? It's got a four eyed design with the biggest difference being the two central lights, which are circular. The outer two are not.

I don't usually accuse other carmakers of copying. I personally think it is silly and childish, honestly. But in the case of the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS, it just smells suspicious and I've given my reasons why. During this time, Lexus was still watching Mercedes very closely.

Does it matter which country the designer came from? Many of the Mercedes' in the 1960s and 1970s were designed by Paul Bracq, a Frenchman. Beginning in the 1980s until around 1999, Bruno Sacco took over (an Italian). The current Mercedes design chief, Peter Pfeiffer, is German. And yet, a Mercedes W123 from 1976 is referred to as "Germanic / Teutonic" looking.

The new Ford Mustang still looks like a typical "American retro design", despite a Vietnamese guy having styled it as you claim. The Toyota 2000 GT looks very European if you have not noticed, almost like an Opel GT. I don't know what I am trying to say with that last sentence...

I give up, you're right, Lexus copied the E-Class to a T. Wheels, windshield, windows, and even the logo. All M-B designs are totally original and they have never copied off of anyone, ever.

If the country of origin of the designer doesn't matter, why did you bring up the fact that the 2000GT was penned by a German?

[HurricaneSteve]

Think of it this way. I even said this earlier. Let's say Lexus matches BMW and Mercedes in the year 2050. On a prestige scale of 10, everyone has a 10 right now, just as an example.


It's...

Lexus 10/10

BMW 10/10

Mercedes 10/10


But, BMW and Mercedes have been around much longer than Lexus. So we look back into time and we...

1) Factor in a classic 1954 BMW 502 V8 sedan for example.

or

2) For Mercedes, we factor in the top three victory placings in the 1938 Grand Prix de Tripoli (1st: lang, 2nd: von Brauchitsch, 3rd: Caracciola).


Now the prestige scale looks like this:

Lexus 10/10

BMW 11/10

Mercedes 11/10


Repeat this with other achievements and you instantly have Lexus left behind big time in the overall prestige department. That's basically much of what I was trying to say.

History, yes. Prestige, no. A monkey might be my ancestor but I'm not going to sit here and bow down to one all day just because they came out first.

[cawimmer430]

I give up, you're right, Lexus copied the E-Class to a T. Wheels, windshield, windows, and even the logo. All M-B designs are totally original and they have never copied off of anyone, ever.

Ok, now you're really acting like a kid. 

Like I said, I am hardly someone to accuse certain carmakers of copying others. I might say "This design reminds me of ____ from this angle...", but that's it. One of my few exceptions is here with the Lexus GS. I am convinced that Toyota was inspired by the W210 E-Class.

From this:


To this in 1998, two years after the W210 E-Class debuted. It just reeks of suspicion. Maybe the 2nd generation GS was supposed to look like an evolution of the 1st generation GS. "


"But what's that? A new Mercedes, and one that will compete with our GS. Hey, maybe we should change the headlight design of our GS so people are slightly reminded of this new E-Class. Might help sales!?" 

If the country of origin of the designer doesn't matter, why did you bring up the fact that the 2000GT was penned by a German?

Because I wanted to sound like a smartass. 

[HurricaneSteve]

Ok, now you're really acting like a kid. 

Like I said, I am hardly someone to accuse certain carmakers of copying others. I might say "This design reminds me of ____ from this angle...", but that's it. One of my few exceptions is here with the Lexus GS. I am convinced that Toyota was inspired by the W210 E-Class.

From this:


To this in 1998, two years after the W210 E-Class debuted. It just reeks of suspicion. Maybe the 2nd generation GS was supposed to look like an evolution of the 1st generation GS. "


"But what's that? A new Mercedes, and one that will compete with our GS. Hey, maybe we should change the headlight design of our GS so people are slightly reminded of this new E-Class. Might help sales!?" 


Because I wanted to sound like a smartass. 

Actually you are one to accuse companies of copying off of others. Whenever the subject of Toyota/Lexus pops up, that's all you ever say. That GS came out in 97 by the way, and the SC which I believe it was inspired from (was even built on the same platform) came out before that E-Class did.

So now you're calling me a kid yet you're trying to defend your hypocritical statements by simply saying you were a smartass. I suppose that works.

[cawimmer430]

History, yes. Prestige, no. A monkey might be my ancestor but I'm not going to sit here and bow down to one all day just because they came out first.

Again, you don't seem to understand what I am trying to say.

This car when it came out stunned the world for example, even America. It gave Mercedes a lot of prestige.


The same can be said about the first generation LS400 (a car which I like, incidentally) and certainly the GS450h, LS460 and LS600h and just maybe the IS350 and IS-F. But, open your history books on Mercedes-Benz and look what else they had. While these cars add a degree of prestige to the Lexus brand, Mercedes has hundreds of cars and achievements in the past that give them the edge in this department.

Past history is important to prestige, as is current. But Lexus has no great past achievements so to speak off before 1989, and thus their prestige is simply not equal to that off Mercedes, BMW etc.

[cawimmer430]

Actually you are one to accuse companies of copying off of others. Whenever the subject of Toyota/Lexus pops up, that's all you ever say. That GS came out in 97 by the way, and the SC which I believe it was inspired from (was even built on the same platform) came out before that E-Class did.

Have we not already established that Jaguar kicked off the whole four headlight design crap in 1971? Or was it that 1951 Mercedes 300 Cabrio?   

So now you're calling me a kid yet you're trying to defend your hypocritical statements by simply saying you were a smartass. I suppose that works.

Did you see that...what do we call them? Smiley next to it?

[HurricaneSteve]

Again, you don't seem to understand what I am trying to say.

This car when it came out stunned the world, even America. It gave Mercedes a lot of prestige.


The same can be said about the first generation LS400 (a car which I like, incidentally) and certainly the GS450h, LS460 and LS600h and just maybe the IS350 and IS-F. But, open your history books on Mercedes-Benz and look what else they had. While these cars add a degree of prestige to the Lexus brand, Mercedes has hundreds of cars and achievements in the past that give them the edge in this department.

Past history is important to prestige, as is current. But Lexus has no great past achievements so to speak off before 1989, and thus their prestige is simply not equal to that off Mercedes, BMW etc.

That's great but I don't see any difference between that car and any other that came out in the early 1900's. Seems like everyone was copying that design. Either way, what does that have to do with the brand now? I can't drive the car you just showed, there are cars today that look alot better and go alot faster, handle nicer too, so what does that have to do with the average luxury car buyer's purchase decision? Mercedes will always have more HISTORY. I'll agree with that. But that car you showed has nothing to do with whether a person will buy an S-Class or an LS and the fact that the LS competes in the same segment as the S-Class and does so very well is why I believe they have similar prestige.

[HurricaneSteve]

Have we not already established that Jaguar kicked off the whole four headlight design crap in 1971? Or was it that 1951 Mercedes 300 Cabrio?   


Did you see that...what do we call them? Smiley next to it?

If Lexus copied M-B, then so did Jaguar. If Lexus is a copycat brand, so is Jaguar. That we can agree on then, yes? Or because one of us hates Lexus, we can brand them whatever we want?

So smilies, rolling eyes, and "hey I was being a smartass!" are your responses to questions you can't or won't answer. Yet you push your point and refuse to listen to anyone else's.

[cawimmer430]

That's great but I don't see any difference between that car and any other that came out in the early 1900's. Seems like everyone was copying that design. Either way, what does that have to do with the brand now? I can't drive the car you just showed, there are cars today that look alot better and go alot faster, handle nicer too, so what does that have to do with the average luxury car buyer's purchase decision? Mercedes will always have more HISTORY. I'll agree with that. But that car you showed has nothing to do with whether a person will buy an S-Class or an LS and the fact that the LS competes in the same segment as the S-Class and does so very well is why I believe they have similar prestige.

The car I posted was a simple example of what Mercedes offered in the past. That 1937 540K Roadster I posted today is a classic car with an estimated price ranging well into the $1.5 million dollar region. It was exclusive for its time and featured unheard of technology such as activating the supercharger while the car was in motion (provided you were driving under 100 km/h), and it certainly is very exclusive today. A car like this enhances a company's prestige - and Mercedes has tons of classic cars, whether it be mainstream or motorsport, that have enhanced the company's prestige. And this is why Lexus simply cannot compete in terms of history and thus current overall prestige. Lexus is a prestigeous company, but it is not, I repeat, NOT, on the same prestige level as Mercedes-Benz. Period.

I'm going to log off now. Dead tired. Been fun arguing with you. Let's continue tomorrow. 

[cawimmer430]

If Lexus copied M-B, then so did Jaguar. If Lexus is a copycat brand, so is Jaguar. That we can agree on then, yes? Or because one of us hates Lexus, we can brand them whatever we want?

I don't exactly hate Lexus. Competition is good, makes the others improve their products. I'd never buy a Lexus for my personal needs because the cars don't appeal to me. They seem to be made for those who want total isolation from the outside world. I prefer the blend between sport and luxury in most Mercedes'.

Plus I don't need self-parking. 

So smilies, rolling eyes, and "hey I was being a smartass!" are your responses to questions you can't or won't answer. Yet you push your point and refuse to listen to anyone else's.

I refuse to accept your view because you seem to be ignoring the past achivements of BMW or Mercedes. That's my whole point. The past achievements give these two the edge over Lexus in overall prestige.

Good night!

[ro51092]

I read this, and noticed a few things:

1. BMW pwns.
2. Wimmer's just as biased against Lexus, as he is towards MB
3. Wimmer, do you seriously think anyone who buys a Benz actually knows jack shit about the 540K, or Stirling Moss, or the Mille Miglia, or Targa Florio? I think not.
4. Lexus does indeed have motorsports in their accomplishments.
5. Mercedes' aren't exactly the sportiest things around. I bet an IS350 is sportier than a C-class.

All in all, it's a useless battle, with bullshit arguments. Keep in mind that I actually like MB a lot more than Lexus.

[ro51092]

Oh yeah, and I read that the 8-speed is an improvement. I think the 7G-Tronic is just an improvement over the first ZF 6AT, which was in turn an improvement over a 5AT, and so on.

[Submariner]

I read this, and noticed a few things:

1. BMW pwns.
2. Wimmer's just as biased against Lexus, as he is towards MB
3. Wimmer, do you seriously think anyone who buys a Benz actually knows jack shit about the 540K, or Stirling Moss, or the Mille Miglia, or Targa Florio? I think not.
4. Lexus does indeed have motorsports in their accomplishments.
5. Mercedes' aren't exactly the sportiest things around. I bet an IS350 is sportier than a C-class.

All in all, it's a useless battle, with bullshit arguments. Keep in mind that I actually like MB a lot more than Lexus.

#1. 
#2. Duh 
#3. No, very few buyers do.  As someone who has come from a family of Mercedes, and as someone who loves them dearly, my knowledge only scratches the surface (and I know a lot!)
#4. Lexus barely has a motorsport history.  Mercedes, BMW and Audi are eons ahead of them in that department.
#5. Nearly every Mercedes built today is more of a drivers car than it's Lexus counterpart.

[HurricaneSteve]

#1. 
#2. Duh 
#3. No, very few buyers do.  As someone who has come from a family of Mercedes, and as someone who loves them dearly, my knowledge only scratches the surface (and I know a lot!)
#4. Lexus barely has a motorsport history.  Mercedes, BMW and Audi are eons ahead of them in that department.
#5. Nearly every Mercedes built today is more of a drivers car than it's Lexus counterpart.

4. If Lexus = Toyota like so many suggest, shouldn't we include Toyota's racing history as well?
5. Nearly every Lexus built today is more comfortable and reliable than its Mercedes counterpart and nearly every BMW built today is more of a driver's car than it's M-B counterpart. Shouldn't make M-B's any less of cars IMHO. Different target markets.

[ro51092]

4. If Lexus = Toyota like so many suggest, shouldn't we include Toyota's racing history as well?
5. Nearly every Lexus built today is more comfortable and reliable than its Mercedes counterpart and nearly every BMW built today is more of a driver's car than it's M-B counterpart. Shouldn't make M-B's any less of cars IMHO. Different target markets.

Fixed.

[Submariner]

Fixed.

After extensive wheel time in both the E-65 760 and the W-220 S-600, I can safely say the S-class is more of the drivers car. 

I'm not being biased here.  I adore BMW's too, but I just feel that the E-65 is less of the drivers car. 

[ro51092]

Do you have a 760i or a 760Li? If you have an Li, you have an E66. Dumbass. 

[Submariner]

Do you have a 760i or a 760Li? If you have an Li, you have an E66. Dumbass. 

My parents had an Li

I was just testing to see if you knew you're BMW chassis codes. 

[TheIntrepid]

:P

Ro51092 knows as much about BMW as Wimmer does about Benz, and I do about...


























Toyota

[ro51092]

What was the only Japanese car used in a James Bond movie?

[Tave]

2000GT

[Tave]

Which is simply a stunning vehicle, Jaguar rip-off or not.

[TheIntrepid]

What was the only Japanese car used in a James Bond movie?

Toyota 2000GT

[Tave]

Nah nah nanna boo boo

I beat you

[TheIntrepid]

Oh. My bad.

[Tave]