Whoops... :(

[James Young]

hounddog writes:

Why do you assume it is every ok in our society?(that is the law enforcement society)? We prosecute our own, we lock our own up, sometimes we throw away the key.? How many times do you see on the nightly news, or read about a police officer who has been charged and or jailed?? Too often, I am afraid.? There are roughly 700,000 police officers in America, yet the vast majority are rarely ever given credit for the good they do.? ?Again, it can only be through anti-police thinking that you believe we would ever turn the other cheek to such reprehensible behavior as that which you mentioned.

The question was rhetorical.? Nonetheless, I suspect that the number of transgressions far exceeds the number of prosecutions.?
How many regular citizens are given credit for fulfilling their duties?? Why should cops, lawyers or economists be any different?

If by ?. . .ever turn the other cheek to such reprehensible behavior. . .? you mean to turn a blind eye, that is to overlook or ignore such behavior, it hardly arises from a singular cause of anti-police thinking but from the empirical evidence that we hear about every day.? Further, let?s not be coy:? we both know that the overwhelming majority of police transgressions, albeit petty, go undetected or ignored.

Despite the endless and clich?d rhetoric from enforcement itself, the police are hardly above criticism and, since they are openly accountable public employees, are subject to greater criticism than private employees.? We have granted you great training, equipped you, certified you and authorized you to use force, even deadly force, tempered by judgment.? How dare you intimate that we have no right to criticize you.

Because we are hired and required to uphold the law, not question its virtue.? We do not hold that luxury, nor should we.? To allow officers to question that which they were hired to do can only cause anarchy within our societies. (both civil and police)

Officers do not forfeit their citizenship ? neither the benefits nor the responsibilities -- when they pin on the badge.? However, since police unions and departments actively lobby for or against proposed laws, they cannot claim to be neutral in their enforcement.

In 2005 and 2006 former chief Mark Hunter was charged with and plead guilty of several things; False records to ATF, unlawfully selling firearms, ATF dearler license violations, false police reports, child pornography, and possession of cocaine not to mention the couple of local charges for obstructing an investigation.? He was by all accounts a very well liked supervisor among his men.? He was friendly and funny, treating his men well.? Yet it was one of his own rank and file officers who turned him over to the MSP when they found out about it.? Not in the news you say?? It happened.

I applaud that guy [that turned Hunter in].? Or maybe it was the woman employee that {Hunter] recorded having sex with him in his office.? In either case, while I wish none of this stuff ever happened, I?m pleased that that person had the backbone to step up.

On the other hand, we can only speculate on how many times similar behavior gets treated with a wink and a nod.
?

No problems with this statment.? However, there is no money for training, they are not recognized as professionals by ANY other professional organization, there is little money now for equipment upgrades, and most salaries across the country hang in the $30,000 dollar range.? I do not know about you, but none of this falls under professionals as you describe it.? ? I know not one single professional position where the staff makes less than $40,000 as the general rule across the nation.? ?Teachers do not even fall into this catagory, the vast majority of them make north of $40,000.

Usually, professionals provide their own training in medicine, law, engineering, or finance.? I certainly provided my own training in economics.? We chose to do this and were lucky enough to have the opportunity, so we cannot complain that we had to pay for it ourselves.? Two obvious exceptions where training is publicly funded are police and firefighters.? Since these are both critical jobs and qualified professionals are required to fill them, I have no issue with providing publicly-funded training.

?A professional works to receive payment for an activity (as a profession), which usually requires expertise and carries with it socially significant mores and folkways. That is to say, behaving professionally would indicate that the person's actions remain in accordance with specific rules, written or unwritten, pertaining to behavior, dress, speech, etc. By extension, the adjective professional can indicate that someone has great expertise or skill in a craft or activity.?? -- Princeton University

The range of resources available for equipment and training varies across the board but most jurisdictions seem to have a handle on it.? For example, OHP replaces their vehicles with funds directly from fines, thus creating an incentive to cite.? Salaries in most places range to double, sometimes triple, the $30K figure.? Texas DPS troopers are paid $33+K upon entry into the Academy.? Austin PD pays $32+K upon entry into the Academy and $47+K? upon graduation and with ?top pay? for officers ? conditions unknown ? of $76+K.?

LAPD pays $52,648 for HS graduates and $54,747 for 60 college hours credit, beginning on the first day in the Academy.? Bonuses are paid for special skills such as foreign languages or ?hazard pay.?

Michigan seems to be a depressed area, unsurprising given the decline in auto and auto-related manufacturing.? Perhaps it is time to move to more favorable circumstances.? I face a similar situation in that I?m ready to ?unretire? and go back to work and go back home to Austin and live in my own house rather than live in Tulsa, where family obligations brought me last year.? This is a depressing place.

Once again, their situation is their fault in your eyes.? My suggestion to you,? get to know some real police officers.? Become a reserve officer somewhere for a year or more.? Then you will have a valid platform from which to make these insulting claims.

Sorry, I have no interest in controlling the lives of others through force.? My interest is much more intellectual and in the realm of public policy.
?
The old argument that only an insider is qualified to comment on public policy and public employees? behavior is specious.? Show me evidence to the contrary and I?ll modify my hypothesis.? You should do the same.? Sometimes things that we believe that we know have an alternative POV.? The early bird gets the worm is the old saying; left unstated but equally true is that the early worm gets eaten.

Wrong, you could not be anymore wrong than you are here.? We have family, friends, distant relatives and other aquaintances which are normal citizens.? In fact, every single cop that is, was or will be, has been a normal citizen.? If you cannot put yourself into our shoes it gives me great [insight] as to who you are.

Surely you can distinguish between ?cannot? and ?will not.?? Despite former or future status as normal citizens, the cop culture will overwhelm that status.? Consider, for example, that cops speak a different language, encoded on a meme of membership in a specialized culture.

With the ability to discern who, what and why I am, you?re wasting your time as an officer; you should be in Las Vegas.? Steve Wynn would pay big bucks for that.

The PR-24 comment is just one that comes out having used them in the past.? But, I noticed that you never really or directly answered by question.? Another insight into who you really are.

Jargon is not a substitute for thoughtful analysis.

You must have amazing abilities to gain insight without ever having met me, knowing my background, and from a few limited posts.? See above.

Since you seem to want soundbite answers to encyclopedic questions, the answer is no.? Further, I suspect that all those involved also wish they could modify their behavior that night.? There were no winners that night.

Lastly, I am through with you.? I will report any anti-police BS you post from here out, and I hold the moderators responsible for taking any such posts to task.

One can only hope that that is the case.? I doubt that posting factual allegations is a violation of any TOS and certainly unworthy of taking such ?to task.? It is amusing that you revert to the childish, ?I?ll tell on you!? threat.

The sad fact is that absent the ability to threaten or intimidate, your quiver is empty.

[Nebtek2002]

You don't have pretrial diversion (traffic school) available to you?

It won't save much money up front but your insurance won't know unless you get caught again within a certain time frame (two years in Nebraska). If caught within the grace period, you're liable for both old and new tickets.

[Raza]

I think what Champ may be getting at here is that turn signals should always be a separate color than brake lights, and that possibly a different shade of red for running lights and brake lights.

Obviously, its easier to distinguish between turn signals and taillights on cars that have amber turn signals, but not all do.

I don't know how effective that would be myself, as people who aren't paying attention to one shade probably won't pay attention to two shades any better, but i can see the merit in the idea.

But think about different angles and people with bulbs out.  Sometimes depending on where other car are, you can misinterpret brake lights or turn signals.

[Raghavan]

Um, holy crap. How did Champ's thread about being pulled over turn into a 15 page trollfest?

[Catman]

Usually, professionals provide their own training in medicine, law, engineering, or finance.  I certainly provided my own training in economics.  We chose to do this and were lucky enough to have the opportunity, so we cannot complain that we had to pay for it ourselves.  Two obvious exceptions where training is publicly funded are police and firefighters.  Since these are both critical jobs and qualified professionals are required to fill them, I have no issue with providing publicly-funded training.

In my neck of the woods many people have degrees when entering law enforcement.  However, just like the private sector, ongoing training is often provided or offered by their employer.  But, I can tell you that the public sector union mentality often puts a damper on enthusiasm as almost every second of any activity is expected to be compensated.  This is where the main difference is between the public and private sector.  It's a cultural problem that I despise and is like a cancer.

Just as an example, we have a great technology program here.  Our region partnered with the local community college to bring computer training to officers for free.  Now, it's not enough that my Chief will reassign you for the day to go to the training but those that have the training fall on their day off were expecting to get overtime.  So it's not enough to get $500+ worth of training but one must get overtime too.   These are same assholes who complain they don't know how to use the computers and everything is, Over their head".  I hate to admit it but people with that mentality should go pound nails.  If you want to be treated like professionals then one should act like one and recognize that training and education has value.  But, where is the incentive?  They'll still be getting paid the same as me right?

Unions have their place but I see more harm than good lately.  The Union culture only cares about money and benefits and they are too stupid to realize that professionalism, hard work and good leadership will get them further than demanding raises simply because they lived and breathed another year.

Rant over.




 

[Champ]

But think about different angles and people with bulbs out. Sometimes depending on where other car are, you can misinterpret brake lights or turn signals.

Yes, especially when it's an older car, that just has 2 lights on the back.  Dim for running lights, bright for brake, and blinking for turn signal.  All it takes is for one bulb to go out and you have no idea what is happening.  At least with multiple bulbs there is some redundancy built in.  And you can't tell the difference sometimes between someone pulsing their brakes or trying to turn - if you don't have separate bulbs.

[James Young]

I completely support continuing training for my employees and urge them to do as I do and take advantage of it.  This would be especially true for a new and permanent element of the police culture, such as computer crime.  To me, the opportunity to improve one?s value to the organization is an investment of time and effort that will pay off at a personal level in the future, even if I don?t get paid directly for that effort.  I expect them to be equally foresighted.

[Catman]

I completely support continuing training for my employees and urge them to do as I do and take advantage of it.  This would be especially true for a new and permanent element of the police culture, such as computer crime.  To me, the opportunity to improve one?s value to the organization is an investment of time and effort that will pay off at a personal level in the future, even if I don?t get paid directly for that effort.  I expect them to be equally foresighted.

While I am heavily involved in the IT side I am not yet involved in the computer crime stuff due to time constraints.  Other than the people who actually investigate computer crime the vast majority of police officers seem to think it's not worthy of their attention or effort, mainly because they don't understand it.  Yet, while they are looking for traditional crime there's a myriad or internet crimes going on at any given time right under their noses.  Fortunately, we have a couple people who are knowledgeable on how to handle these things and I help as needed.   

[Soup DeVille]

While I am heavily involved in the IT side I am not yet involved in the computer crime stuff due to time constraints.? Other than the people who actually investigate computer crime the vast majority of police officers seem to think it's not worthy of their attention or effort, mainly because they don't understand it.? Yet, while they are looking for traditional crime there's a myriad or internet crimes going on at any given time right under their noses.? Fortunately, we have a couple people who are knowledgeable on how to handle these things and I help as needed.? ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it would be easier for a single investigator to work on multiple cases of internet crime at a time too, wouldn't it?

[James Young]

While I am heavily involved in the IT side I am not yet involved in the computer crime stuff due to time constraints.? Other than the people who actually investigate computer crime the vast majority of police officers seem to think it's not worthy of their attention or effort, mainly because they don't understand it.? Yet, while they are looking for traditional crime there's a myriad or internet crimes going on at any given time right under their noses.? Fortunately, we have a couple people who are knowledgeable on how to handle these things and I help as needed.? ?

Very cool.  A change in the right direction.

[Catman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it would be easier for a single investigator to work on multiple cases of internet crime at a time too, wouldn't it?

We have a regional unit that is three months behind on their cases.  There are more cases than they can handle.  Because the training can take 2-3 years there's not many Chiefs that are willing to give a guy up that long.