Whoops... :(

[hounddog]

Or immobilize the car: or donate all collected fines to a third party charity (not the FOP? ):? or require? community service.

Again, you are in the clouds.? Can you please explain to me EXACTLY what the FOP has to do with actual law enforcement? in Michigan?? In fact, general fund donations are strictly prohibited by law.? In other words, municipalities are actually prevented from giving cash donations to others (such as Rotary Club, Boy Scouts, Lions, School districts, etc..) by law.

And where exactly is the money going to come from to immobilize cars?  Who is going to go out and do it?  Who is going to pay for the equipment to do this immobilizing?

[hounddog]

But no matter how you slice it: money collected is added to the bottom line when fines are collected. There are so many communities in Michigan right now that are having trouble balancing their budgets and are already legally maxed out on their property tax millages that revenue from the collecting of fines is the only way they are keeping out of receivership.

Name one.

[Catman]

Wow, you seem to know everything about everything even though you have no contact with or involvement in any of it.   

I thought I was the only one who noticed. :P

[Soup DeVille]

Hey Hounddog: can you think of one single justification for writing a $125.00 ticket to a motorist for failing to sign the back of a registration card other than shameless revenuing grabbing?

Since you live in Michigan, and since this is actually a law here, you should have a pretty good answer for that, shouldn't you?

"How, exactly, will an officer receiving overtime help the department he is working for if those fines he is ultimately manufacturing are going directly into his paycheck?"
Umm, did I say that? No, I said that it benefits himself directly. Aren't you the guy that kept harping on me for "reading comprehension?"

"Wow, you seem to know everything about everything even though you have no contact with or involvement in any of it. "

Baseless and incorect assumption.

"Can you please explain to me EXACTLY what the FOP has to do with actual law enforcement? in Michigan?"

That was a joke, son: laugh.

"But let me guess, you have personally never received a citation you deserved, right? "

Once, and only once do I believe I got a truly unfair ticket. It was thrown out because the judge agreed with me. I've only ever been written four tickets in my lifetime though, and in the majority of my dealings with law enforcement i've found most officers to be professional and balanced. Notice that nowhere in my statements do I bash officers in general.

"Your original argument equated that municipalities rake in large sums of cash from the citations they write, while Rohan accurately described how the money is divided up in Michigan. "

I perhaps used the wrong word when I said municipality. "Government" would have been better. But yes, in the end, the result is the same.

"Name one"

Wyandotte. Brownstown. Westland. Hamtramck. Pleasant Ridge.

"And where exactly is the money going to come from to immobilize cars?? Who is going to go out and do it?? Who is going to pay for the equipment to do this immobilizing?"

That's funny, friend: I've never heard of a free storage impound yard in my life.

"As with most of your other arguments regarding law enforcement, you are all wet."


Exactly what arguments have I made about law enforcement? I can't say that I've ever made an argument against law enforcement. I've argued against laws, and I've argued about the legality of certain things. I've never made an argument, po or con about law enforcement.

[hounddog]

Hey Hounddog: can you think of one single justification for writing a $125.00 ticket to a motorist for failing to sign the back of a registration card other than shameless revenuing grabbing?

As a traffic officer earlier in my career I wrote several, maybe could even say plenty of them.? It is the law, and if you do not sign it, it is a valid citation.?

"How, exactly, will an officer receiving overtime help the department he is working for if those fines he is ultimately manufacturing are going directly into his paycheck?"
Umm, did I say that? No, I said that it benefits himself directly. Aren't you the guy that kept harping on me for "reading comprehension?"

I did in fact misunderstand what you were saying.? ?Unlike you, I am able to admit when I have made a mistake in my posting.

Baseless and incorect assumption.

Oh.? Thanks for clearing that up.?
You see, Catman, we were both wrong.? ?
I guess then, you are educated or perhaps highly educated in physics, lidar operations, radar operation, light mechanics, mathematics, law, government, the auto industry and computers?

"Can you please explain to me EXACTLY what the FOP has to do with actual law enforcement? in Michigan?"

That was a joke, son: laugh.

First off, if you respect us so much, why patronize and disrespect me?? Secondly, even if you are not patronizing or disrespecting me on purpose, I am not your son.? In fact, it is likely I am your elder.? Lastly, what exactly is the joke?? Your post seemed genuinely sincere.

Once, and only once do I believe I got a truly unfair ticket. It was thrown out because the judge agreed with me. I've only ever been written four tickets in my lifetime though, and in the majority of my dealings with law enforcement i've found most officers to be professional and balanced. Notice that nowhere in my statements do I bash officers in general.

Fair enough.?

I perhaps used the wrong word when I said municipality. "Government" would have been better. But yes, in the end, the result is the same.

How then, does a "government" entity receive large benefits from the small fines they receive?? And, exactly how do you differentiate between municipality and "government?"

Wyandotte. Brownstown. Westland. Hamtramck. Pleasant Ridge.

So when I call the "governments" you listed tomorrow, they are going to tell me they are operating in the black solely because of the fines they receive from the citations their respective police departments generate?? Oh, and I will be calling them and asking for copies of their budgets.

That's funny, friend: I've never heard of a free storage impound yard in my life.

Just for the record, I am fine with friend.? I try not to dislike anyone until I really get to know them.? But what has a storage impound yard to do with what I asked?? My questions on this are still on the table.

Exactly what arguments have I made about law enforcement? I can't say that I've ever made an argument against law enforcement. I've argued against laws, and I've argued about the legality of certain things. I've never made an argument, po or con about law enforcement.

If you are arguing what you have mentioned, you are in fact arguing about law enforcement in general.?

I noticed you did not respond to my question about how ticket writing actually helps "governments" when I can show actual budgets from around the state disproving your claims.? ????

[Catman]

I really try not to argue about these things.  Often times the frustration is directed at the officers who are doing what they are paid to do.  Fines were instituted because society recognized along time ago that not every violation of law be a criminal offense.  It wasn't that long ago where an officer could arrest a speeder (I think it's still arrestable in NH).  While there are some agencies who use citations as a revenue stream for their respective governments I think most of the time there is no net gain when you consider the peripheral costs involved with enforcement.

What has really mucked up the pond here is th insurance companies.  Most people can accept the sting of a citation once in a great while but the levy imposed by the insurance companies can be a very hard pill to swallow.  MA recently increased stop sign violations to $150.  Consider the total cost over five years.  I'm not sure what the final numbers are but I would bet it's north of $500.  Obviously the punishment does not fit the crime and most police officers agree with that.  Unfortunately, the legislatures have allowed this. 

[sparkplug]

speeding should be a capital offense. hahahahahahaha. Then we'd all die.

[Soup DeVille]

"As a traffic officer earlier in my career I wrote several, maybe could even say plenty of them.  It is the law, and if you do not sign it, it is a valid citation"

I didn't ask whether or not it was valid: I asked what the justification was for it.  Tell me, who is the injured party? A motorist produces the proper license, insurance card, and regiatration, but is fined for forgetting to sign the bnack of the registration.

What is the justification?

"Oh.  Thanks for clearing that up. 
You see, Catman, we were both wrong.   
I guess then, you are educated or perhaps highly educated in physics, lidar operations, radar operation, light mechanics, mathematics, law, government, the auto industry and computers?"

What, there's no difference between "no contact" and being highly educated?

For the record, much of what I do has to do with designing gallium/arsenide diodes which are the basic operating component of LIDAR guns, so yes: I am intimately familiar with the physics behind their operation, the light mechanics involved, the mathematics to figure out their physics, and the computers that control them. I also worked most of my career in the auto industry- and my current work is an extension of the automation applications I worked with there.

I will admit that my experience with the law and government is somehwhat less extensive, but I know several people who are and converse with them quite frequently: including deputies from the Macomb County Sheriff's office and lawyers on both sides of the bench.

"First off, if you respect us so much, why patronize and disrespect me?"

An institution is one thing, an individual is another, and while I respect the job that you guys do, personal respect is another matter entirely. Not saying that I disrespect you, but Jesus Christ man, lighten up a little. And try to understand the subtle implications of the winking smiley.

" And, exactly how do you differentiate between municipality and "government?"

For the purposes of my argument, and in the current context, I do not. A municipality is simply the local government.

"So when I call the "governments" you listed tomorrow, they are going to tell me they are operating in the black solely because of the fines they receive from the citations their respective police departments generate?  Oh, and I will be calling them and asking for copies of their budgets."

Bring a checkbook: local budgets run hundreds of pages, and they usually charge anywhere from $.25 to a $1.00 per page for copying. Of course you can stand in city hall and thumb through the damned thing all day, but that's a helluva way to spend an afternoon.

"But what has a storage impound yard to do with what I asked?"

Impounding a vehicle is an effective way to immobilize one, is it not? A little extreme and unnecesary in most cases, but quite effective. Also costly for the offender, but in this case: the "gubbiment" doesn't see a dime.

Are you familiar with the 24 hour rule in interstate trucking? That a trucker running hot (over their alotted work hours) can be commanded to leave his rig in a certain spot until its released? If the rig does leave, a warrant is issued. Next to zero cost and quite effective as well.

"If you are arguing what you have mentioned, you are in fact arguing about law enforcement in general. 

I noticed you did not respond to my question about how ticket writing actually helps "governments" when I can show actual budgets from around the state disproving your claims.  ????"

No, I am arguing about the law, and the lawful disbursement of funds. I have never claimed that law enforcement for speeding should cease, only that the financial incentive for doing so should cease, and I proposed a legal way of eliminating that incentive.

No, you can't: you in fact showed that money does indeed benefit the local budget. Youll argue scale, and how much it benefits it, but what you seem to be forgetting is that government never was a for-profit- concern in the first place. Of course you still have a bigger budget than what you take in! Writing tickets is not the only thing you do (unless you're New Rome)! Police departments don't exist to make money- so they shouldn't benefit financially from any single thing they do. That's what taxes are for.

[Soup DeVille]

"Often times the frustration is directed at the officers who are doing what they are paid to do."

And often times officers take any criticism of any aspect of their job as directed towards them on a personal level. I feel that that is what's going on here, yet I repeat: this is not my intent

[Catman]

"Often times the frustration is directed at the officers who are doing what they are paid to do."

And often times officers take any criticism of any aspect of their job as directed towards them on a personal level. I feel that that is what's going on here, yet I repeat: this is not my intent

The reason we take it personal is because it often is.  Actually, I really didn't take you posts that way but my responses are usually based on a long time of hearing people directing their frustrations toward me and the reality that many people don't appreciate the work that officers do because their only first hand knowledge of police work is the citation they just got.  My only issue with you is you're a little overconfident in your opinions.  Your theory on how the money trail filters out almost implies a conspiracy at all levels of government. 

[sparkplug]

The access to the coffers isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.  We have an approved operating budget and we work within it.  Citation money doesn't factor into that budget at all.  Yes you can make an argument that we benefit from it somehow but there's always strings on every level, doesn't mean it's as defined as you make it out to be.  Recently the chief made a decision to remove all the radar units from the cars that allow speed measurement while moving.  So now, all the guys have are hand helds.  I told the chief it was a bad decision.  The reason was that it was costing too much to keep them repaired and calibrated.  You'd think that the citation money could be used to actually maintain the device that allows for the fine but for some reason it doesn't work that way.   I'm not blowing smaoke Soup, just telling you how we operate.  It's different everywhere so I can only comment on my dept.

I know the truth. You use it for that rewards programs. A dozen tickets is a dozen donuts. Or better yet a new electric stun gun combo service pistol, phazer.

[Soup DeVille]

The reason we take it personal is because it often is.? Actually, I really didn't take you posts that way but my responses are usually based on a long time of hearing people directing their frustrations toward me and the reality that many people don't appreciate the work that officers do because their only first hand knowledge of police work is the citation they just got.? My only issue with you is you're a little overconfident in your opinions.? Your theory on how the money trail filters out almost implies a conspiracy at all levels of government.?

You guys have strong opinions too, if I didn't respond in kind I wouldn't get very far.

Its not a "conspiracy theory," or really a theory at all: Its just the way it is. Fines generate revenue. Governments always find a use for revenue, and they always want more. That's why I brought up one of Jennifer Granholm's nasty little pet fines (that would be the worthless democrat ultra-liberal Canadian governor that Hounddog was speaking of): the "oops, I forgot to sign my registration fine." No victim, no need for the law. Just revenue grabbing.

They make the laws, and you guys do your job. That doesn't mean the laws are always right, or that they never have anything but the good of the populace in mind. Government is in constant need of correction. That's one of the basic concepts of what old Abe called a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people," not above the people or on the people.

[Catman]

You guys have strong opinions too, if I didn't respond in kind I wouldn't get very far.

Its not a "conspiracy theory," or really a theory at all: Its just the way it is. Fines generate revenue. Governments always find a use for revenue, and they always want more. That's why I brought up one of Jennifer Granholm's nasty little pet fines (that would be the worthless democrat ultra-liberal Canadian governor that Hounddog was speaking of): the "oops, I forgot to sign my registration fine." No victim, no need for the law. Just revenue grabbing.

They make the laws, and you guys do your job. That doesn't mean the laws are always right, or that they never have anything but the good of the populace in mind. Government is in constant need of correction. That's one of the basic concepts of what old Abe called a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people," not above the people or on the people.

I don't disagree with that.  And, for the record the registration signature fine is pretty ridiculous.  I don't think I could write one of those and sleep at night. :P  I think I'd stick to written warnings on that statute.  The last time MA raised all their fines citations went down significantly.  Contrary to popular belief police offiers do not enjoy slamming average citizens with crazy fines.  Although some people make it very easy.

[TurboDan]

As a traffic officer earlier in my career I wrote several, maybe could even say plenty of them.  It is the law, and if you do not sign it, it is a valid citation. 

Are you serious?  That sounds pretty lame to me.  Someone HAS their legal registration, and simply didn't sign the back of the card, and you think that they should have to pay over a hundred dollars for that?  You seem like a stand-up guy, but someone who would write a ticket for something as dumb as that would have me questioning their personality.  Additionally, writing pointless tickets only makes drivers more hostile to law enforcement to begin with.

Of course, the officers are the ones who will get the flack for bad traffic laws.  My problem isn't necessarily that officers write tickets, but what they write them for.  I wish highway-based departments (State Troopers, etc.) would become more active in fighting the root causes of accidents.  What use is a State Trooper hiding behind a bush on the side of a highway looking for a car surpassing an arbitrary number on a screen?  I want Staties out there patrolling the highways, looking for poor lane discipline, tailgating, swerving, drunk driving, and other forms of stupidity and aggressiveness that leads to accidents.  I'm sure some DO, in fact, do this.  But, the data shows that the vast majority of tickets written are for speeding.  Speeding is easy to prove.  The things I mentioned are not, they're subjective to the officer's discretion.  You might not always win in court, and you might not always even be able to write a citation.  But for highway safety, I believe targeting unsafe driving would be much more effective than simply targeting speed.

[TBR]

When I got my ticket (68 in a 55) as long as I paid it on time it was made clear that the state would know nothing about it. Now of course that was fine with me because if the state didn't find out about it my insurance company wouldn't either, but that would also mean that the state isn't getting their share of my $179. I suppose in principal I should be pissed, but in reality I am just happy that I didn't have to sit through defensive driving to keep it off my record.

[TBR]

Also, 55 was an absolutely ridiculous speed limit for that stretch of road.

[Catman]

Are you serious?  That sounds pretty lame to me.  Someone HAS their legal registration, and simply didn't sign the back of the card, and you think that they should have to pay over a hundred dollars for that?  You seem like a stand-up guy, but someone who would write a ticket for something as dumb as that would have me questioning their personality.  Additionally, writing pointless tickets only makes drivers more hostile to law enforcement to begin with.

Well, it is a valid citation.  I think it's valid even though I disagree with the fine.   But, we have no say in that.

[TurboDan]

Well, it is a valid citation.  I think it's valid even though I disagree with the fine.   But, we have no say in that.

Nah, but I couldn't picture most officers writing one of those.  If I was on the job, I'd only pull out something like that when the person was being an asshole. 

[Catman]

Nah, but I couldn't picture most officers writing one of those.  If I was on the job, I'd only pull out something like that when the person was being an asshole. 

[TurboDan]

When I got my ticket (68 in a 55) as long as I paid it on time it was made clear that the state would know nothing about it. Now of course that was fine with me because if the state didn't find out about it my insurance company wouldn't either, but that would also mean that the state isn't getting their share of my $179. I suppose in principal I should be pissed, but in reality I am just happy that I didn't have to sit through defensive driving to keep it off my record.

Like Greg said, I think most people who get cited for something realize they did something wrong and would pay the fine that is levied.  Chronic speeders will always speed, but for someone who doesn't stop at a stop sign or blows through a light, a citation could be a good reality check.  The problem is that one mistake could cost you for years to come.  That's not the fault of government, but private insurance companies.  I wish they would somehow pass some type of law that could contain that problem. 

[sparkplug]

They took the signature off the back of the ones for SC. I reckon the police didn't understand that people signed with a X and wrote them up anyway.

[the nameless one]

Yeah, fines are the only way to penalize people.

You could, for example, just pull the license after a certain number of infractions.

So til that point they basically get a free ride? Just issue them a bunch of tickets but no financial penalty eh?How about we just flat oput suspend you on the first offense. Zero tolerance. Don't want to pay a fine? OK, you don't get to drive after that first ticket either.

[Catman]

Like Greg said, I think most people who get cited for something realize they did something wrong and would pay the fine that is levied.  Chronic speeders will always speed, but for someone who doesn't stop at a stop sign or blows through a light, a citation could be a good reality check.  The problem is that one mistake could cost you for years to come.  That's not the fault of government, but private insurance companies.  I wish they would somehow pass some type of law that could contain that problem. 

I always thought that everyone should get one a year without surcharge or three in five years, etc.

[the nameless one]

I wish highway-based departments (State Troopers, etc.) would become more active in fighting the root causes of accidents.? What use is a State Trooper hiding behind a bush on the side of a highway looking for a car surpassing an arbitrary number on a screen?? I want Staties out there patrolling the highways, looking for poor lane discipline, tailgating, swerving, drunk driving, and other forms of stupidity and aggressiveness that leads to accidents.? I'm sure some DO, in fact, do this.? But, the data shows that the vast majority of tickets written are for speeding.? Speeding is easy to prove.? The things I mentioned are not, they're subjective to the officer's discretion.? You might not always win in court, and you might not always even be able to write a citation.? But for highway safety, I believe targeting unsafe driving would be much more effective than simply targeting speed.

People drive like an angel when they know a marked unit is in the area. I sometimes see more violations in my 15 minute ride home in my POV than I do just driving around for a couple of hours looking for  violations of rules of the road...non speeding or equipment type violations.

[the nameless one]

The costs only go up when a ticket is contested- which is what I said in the first place: Not enough people contest their tickets.

Not true. There are costs associated with tracking every ticket by the agency and the Court, not just those that are contested. Even tickets which may not go ultimately to trial but for which the Defendant requests a Supporting Deposition for, for instance ....that type of thing is an added expense to the court, the officer, the agency.

[Soup DeVille]

Not true. There are costs associated with tracking every ticket by the agency and the Court, not just those that are contested. Even tickets which may not go ultimately to trial but for which the Defendant requests a Supporting Deposition for, for instance ....that type of thing is an added expense to the court, the officer, the agency.

Umm, I think you're agreeing with me, but I'm not sure.

I get a ticket. I can

A: pay it and forget about it.

B: contest it in some way.

Are we agreeing the B is more expnsive for the courts?

[Soup DeVille]

People drive like an angel when they know a marked unit is in the area. I sometimes see more violations in my 15 minute ride home in my POV than I do just driving around for a couple of hours looking for? violations of rules of the road...non speeding or equipment type violations.

Look at that this way then: for those couple of hours you were manifestally making the roads safer by your very presence.

You are dismayed then by what? That you didn't get to write any tickets?

[the nameless one]

Umm, I think you're agreeing with me, but I'm not sure.

I get a ticket. I can

A: pay it and forget about it.

B: contest it in some way.

Are we agreeing the B is more expnsive for the courts?

I am saying that there are expenses for tickets even if they do not go to trial; you stated that the cost of the ticket being processed only exists  if the ticket goes to trial.

[the nameless one]

Look at that this way then: for those couple of hours you were manifestally making the roads safer by your very presence.

You are dismayed then by what? That you didn't get to write any tickets?

I'm saying that those who think that officers should just drive up and down the road looking for people violating the rules of the road are not being realistic. Unless the officer can catch them unawares, the drivers will be scrupulously following the VTL until they think the officer is no longer nearby. Too bad they can't be as careful ALL of the time.

[Soup DeVille]

I am saying that there are expenses for tickets even if they do not go to trial; you stated that the cost of the ticket being processed only goes up if the ticket goes to trial.

I still fail to see how that contradicts anything I said.