Dodge Challenger, Chevrolet Camaro

[S204STi]

In any case, we will eventually see some figures of a similar nature for the new Camaro and the new Challenged (which will likely be improved over the current Charger if anyone can find these figures for Chargers).
The Challenger may be as rigid as the body/frame of the Mustang--or even more rigid--but the Camaro won't be.?

Wow...care to back that up?

[rohan]

I would say most people in general.? Anytime I talk with a customer about their car I discover they know precisely squat about how their car works on any level.

Hmmm.  That surprises me because I'm one of those people but I know the difference between the two. 

[Raza]

Not to mention that GM knew they were only going to build the GTO for 3 years.  Man is he one track minded- anything to make the GTO and GM look bad.  I have one and it's one of the best cars GM made in a long time - it's so quiet and rides SOOOO nice but handles crisply and turns really small circles for a bigger car - then if you want to smile- stomp on the gas!   

Just make sure you turn off that darned anti-spin crap.

The TCS in that car is so simple and so lax, you can wag the tail a little with it on, even.  I know.  I did it shifting into third gear.



Great car.

[Raza]

I would say most people in general.  Anytime I talk with a customer about their car I discover they know precisely squat about how their car works on any level.

Many Mercedes drivers I've met don't know the difference between front and rear wheel drive, nor the differences between 6 and 8 cylinders, nor why turbocharging is different than natural aspiration.  The average car buyer doesn't know much at all.

[rohan]

The TCS in that car is so simple and so lax, you can wag the tail a little with it on, even.? I know.? I did it shifting into third gear.



Great car.

Stick or auto?  It is a great car- I actually like it better than my 04 Vett convertible I had for a few months.  More room, better ride, same or better power.   Just will never understand why they didn't make it a convertible too?  And it's got about the best seats ever made.

[Raza]

Stick or auto?  It is a great car- I actually like it better than my 04 Vett convertible I had for a few months.  More room, better ride, same or better power.   Just will never understand why they didn't make it a convertible too?  And it's got about the best seats ever made.

Stick. 

I have no idea why they didn't make a Monaro/GTO convertible.  That would have been pretty cool.  But it would probably break two tons. 

[rohan]

Stick.?

I have no idea why they didn't make a Monaro/GTO convertible.? That would have been pretty cool.? But it would probably break two tons.?

Excuse me for being stupid here- but aren't convertibles lighter because of smaller rear glass and no metal roof and roll over cage?

[Raza]

Excuse me for being stupid here- but aren't convertibles lighter because of smaller rear glass and no metal roof and roll over cage?

Technically, it would be, but because of the extra stiffening that has to go into the chassis to keep it rigid usually increases weight probably an average of 200 pounds. 

There are some convertibles that are lighter than their closed top counterparts, such as the Boxster and Cayman, but it's a rare occurrence. 

[rohan]

Technically, it would be, but because of the extra stiffening that has to go into the chassis to keep it rigid usually increases weight probably an average of 200 pounds.?

There are some convertibles that are lighter than their closed top counterparts, such as the Boxster and Cayman, but it's a rare occurrence.?

I had no idea!  Wow you just learned me somting.

[omicron]

Stick.

I have no idea why they didn't make a Monaro/GTO convertible. That would have been pretty cool. But it would probably break two tons.

[Raza]

They did make a Monaro convertible!?  That looks fantastic.

[rohan]

You cant' tell me that wouldn't have sold well here.  That's fucking awesome!

[omicron]

They did make a Monaro convertible!? That looks fantastic.

Only as a concept, unfortunately. It didn't surface until two years after it was built in 2002. I believe that it also functioned as an early test-car for LHD Monaros; hence the LHD of this concept.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2004-Holden-Monaro-Marilyn-Concept.htm

It's since become known as the Marilyn Monaro.

[Raza]

You cant' tell me that wouldn't have sold well here.  That's fucking awesome!

I'd buy two!

[565]

Where did you find numbers for the Passat? I'd like to know what the 350Z is.

The 350Z should be extremely stiff.  I remember reading that it compares quite well to the G35 and M35/45.  I don't know if anyone remembers, a while back on C&D I got bored and started looking up first torsional frequencies listed in HZ. It's a different way of measuring rigidity that also takes into account weight.  I went and dug up that old post.

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=160438&query.id=8030#M160438

"I got bored and I started looking up the first torsional frequency of my Z06 just for kicks. Well I came across an article where GM brags proudly that the C5 almost achieves the torsional rigidity of a good sedan. My mind chewed on this bit of info before having violent information indigestion. What do you mean to tell me my beloved C5 Z06, whose chassis is praised again and again for stiffness, barely matches up to some sedan?

Well I decided to do some digging online, to see just how stiff sports cars are. I always assumed sports cars were the stiffest motor vehicles around. I was wrong. I was so wrong.

BMW Z3 17 Hz
BMWZ4 19.5 Hz
Audi TT roadster 22Hz
C5 coupe(with roof on) 22hz
C5 Z06 24hz.
C6 Z06 25hz.
STS 25hz
Neon 25hz
1996 Ford Taurus 27hz
Lincoln LS 29hz
Crossfire Roadster 29.2 hz
Ford Explorer 30hz
Subaru B9 Tribeca 34.2hz
BMW 5 44.7hz
G35 55.6hz
M35/45 58.1hz

I guess I learned something. I always assumed that sports cars would be the stiffest cars around, but it is just the opposite. If you think about it, it makes sense, it is more difficult to make something as flat as a pancake (aka Corvette) as stiff as the automotive equivalent of a cube (Explorer).

Did everyone know this but me? I feel like this is some huge auto conspiracy. Magazines always talk about how stiff this sports car is, or that sports car is. But they fail to mention that the garden variety Ford Explorer puts them all to shame. "


I guess the take home lesson is that sharing a platform with SUV's and sedans means you'll end up with an overweight platform, but also an extremely stiff one.

[565]

Also on a side note, in the test drive of the 350Z and G35 coupe, both cars felt as if there were carved from a single piece of steel. They both felt incredibly stiff.

[sandertheshark]

I'd honestly have a tought time deciding between the new Challenger and Camaro on styling alone.  I love them both.  But the Camaro has me at "LS7"

[GoCougs]

Did everyone know this but me? I feel like this is some huge auto conspiracy. Magazines always talk about how stiff this sports car is, or that sports car is. But they fail to mention that the garden variety Ford Explorer puts them all to shame. "

No, I am surprised as well.

I take it that that that is the resonant frequency.

It's especially impressive since the lighter cars (typically sports cars - smaller) would have the advantage since resonant frequency increases with a decrease in mass (assuming stiffness remains constant).

[sandertheshark]

I guess I learned something. I always assumed that sports cars would be the stiffest cars around, but it is just the opposite. If you think about it, it makes sense, it is more difficult to make something as flat as a pancake (aka Corvette) as stiff as the automotive equivalent of a cube (Explorer).

Did everyone know this but me? I feel like this is some huge auto conspiracy. Magazines always talk about how stiff this sports car is, or that sports car is. But they fail to mention that the garden variety Ford Explorer puts them all to shame. "


I guess the take home lesson is that sharing a platform with SUV's and sedans means you'll end up with an overweight platform, but also an extremely stiff one.

Yes, I always knew that more massive vehicles are inherently stiffer than less massive vehicles.  It's a trade-off like anything else.  Do you want less weight or more stiffness?  That's the quandry automotive engineers have always fought.

[JYODER240]

Also on a side note, in the test drive of the 350Z and G35 coupe, both cars felt as if there were carved from a single piece of steel. They both felt incredibly stiff.

The 350Z is the single most stiff car I've ever driven. I've put over 15K miles on it and driven over some incredibly rough and undulating roads and I've never heard a single groan or felt even the slightest flex. In most cars if you go over a small steep hill fast you can hear the body flex near the roof and the A-pillar but I've had anything like that.

[MX793]

The 350Z should be extremely stiff.  I remember reading that it compares quite well to the G35 and M35/45.  I don't know if anyone remembers, a while back on C&D I got bored and started looking up first torsional frequencies listed in HZ. It's a different way of measuring rigidity that also takes into account weight.  I went and dug up that old post.

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=160438&query.id=8030#M160438

"I got bored and I started looking up the first torsional frequency of my Z06 just for kicks. Well I came across an article where GM brags proudly that the C5 almost achieves the torsional rigidity of a good sedan. My mind chewed on this bit of info before having violent information indigestion. What do you mean to tell me my beloved C5 Z06, whose chassis is praised again and again for stiffness, barely matches up to some sedan?

Well I decided to do some digging online, to see just how stiff sports cars are. I always assumed sports cars were the stiffest motor vehicles around. I was wrong. I was so wrong.

BMW Z3 17 Hz
BMWZ4 19.5 Hz
Audi TT roadster 22Hz
C5 coupe(with roof on) 22hz
C5 Z06 24hz.
C6 Z06 25hz.
STS 25hz
Neon 25hz
1996 Ford Taurus 27hz
Lincoln LS 29hz
Crossfire Roadster 29.2 hz
Ford Explorer 30hz
Subaru B9 Tribeca 34.2hz
BMW 5 44.7hz
G35 55.6hz
M35/45 58.1hz

I guess I learned something. I always assumed that sports cars would be the stiffest cars around, but it is just the opposite. If you think about it, it makes sense, it is more difficult to make something as flat as a pancake (aka Corvette) as stiff as the automotive equivalent of a cube (Explorer).

Did everyone know this but me? I feel like this is some huge auto conspiracy. Magazines always talk about how stiff this sports car is, or that sports car is. But they fail to mention that the garden variety Ford Explorer puts them all to shame. "


I guess the take home lesson is that sharing a platform with SUV's and sedans means you'll end up with an overweight platform, but also an extremely stiff one.

To add to that list, for the Nethead there's sake, I read the other day that the new VE Commodore has a natural frequency of right around 55 Hz in torsion.  The stiffness of the new Camaro, built on that same platform, should not be in question.  For comparison, the Chrysler 300 has a torsional frequency of 40 Hz.  I'll put my money on the Camaro being torsionally stiffer than the Challenger when the two come out.

[GoCougs]

Yes, I always knew that more massive vehicles are inherently stiffer than less massive vehicles.? It's a trade-off like anything else.? Do you want less weight or more stiffness?? That's the quandry automotive engineers have always fought.

Actually, heavier vehicles are not inherently stiffer.

By using spring constant "K" as a determinant of stiffness, mass is independent.

By using natural frequency (Wn) as a determinant of stiffness, mass is inversely proportional to Wn; the higher the mass the lower Wn.

I would not be surprised that the most massive vehicles on the road; full-size pickups and SUVs, and even commerical trucks, are toward the bottom.

[ChrisV]

Seriously though I hate all retro, which is why Challenger gets the most hatred from me.  I never understood pony cars in the first place.  If I wanted cheap speed for 26K I'd get a Solstice GXP, or a 350Z.  If I needed back seats, I'd get an RX8. 

If you don't get it, you don't get it, but I really feel sorry for you not even trying to understand the appeal of pony cars from the musclecar background vs cars from the sports car background. Seems so...self limiting and narrowminded.

[Nethead]

Wow...care to back that up?

R-inge:? RingDude, it ain't like we can go down to the bowtie lot and ask for a 2007 Camaro to twist, y' know?? Since 2007 Mustangs are sheetmetal and 2007 Camaros are, well, non-existent, how can we compare the torsional rigidity of the two, since one set of torsional rigidity measurements would be based upon real tests upon an actual vehicle and the other would be based upon conjecture, supposition, projection, and other subcategories of basic bullshit?
?
The problem with the Zeta light platform is that too much is being asked of it.? That alone is not a sin, since 250 HP can pretty much be kept in check by any frame/body you might come up with--sedan, mini-SUV, cross-over, station wagon, hybrid econobox, microvan, whatever.? But add, say, another 150 HP to that 250 and there'd better not be any compromises in the body/frame or you'll have a POS performance car at the limits.? Naturally, if you never drive anywhere close to the limits you might never know.? 250 HP would be just fine for that kind of driving, and you'll seldom if ever get yourself into a serious asshole pucker situation.?

Lutz admits that the Mustang's budget pricing will be hard to match since there are no start-up costs that have to be recovered in a car that's been in production for forty-three consecutive years.? The SSR, the resurrected T-Bird, and the resurrected GTO demonstrated what happens when you overprice your customers, so the Camaro is gonna havta be price-competitive to survive.? And that means very little can be done to the Zeta light platform and still produce a sellable, profitable Camaro--it was that way when I was selling Chevies for a living when the very first Camaros hit the dealerships, it is that way today, and it will still be that way whenever the first resurrected Camaro hits the dealerships in the distant future.

Selling cars is not a government benefits program--it's a business.? And the automobile business is tougher than it's been since the 1930s.? The easy sell of the mid-'Sixties is long gone--regular gas could be bought in my hometown for as little as $.239, and there were only about 100 makes/models to choose from nationwide.? Now, gasoline is about thirteen or fourteen times that price for regular and there are over 600 makes/models to choose from nationwide.? GM had twice the marketshare when the original Camaro was introduced than it has today.?

To an ex-car-salesman, this hardly seems to be the time to be imitating another company's success and scrambling for the scraps dropped from the Mustang's table.? ? ?

Maybe that has something to do with GM's marketshare problem...

[S204STi]

R-inge:? RingDude, it ain't like we can go down to the bowtie lot and ask for a 2007 Camaro to twist, y' know?? Since 2007 Mustangs are sheetmetal and 2007 Camaros are, well, non-existent, how can we compare the torsional rigidity of the two, since one set of torsional rigidity measurements would be based upon real tests upon an actual vehicle and the other would be based upon conjecture, supposition, projection, and other subcategories of basic bullshit?

That is my exact problem with you post.  You seem to have no problem stating definitively that the Camaro is going to suffer in the stiffness department, but you can't actually prove it...then you act like I'm foolish for suggesting that you do.

[SVT666]

R-inge:? RingDude, it ain't like we can go down to the bowtie lot and ask for a 2007 Camaro to twist, y' know?? Since 2007 Mustangs are sheetmetal and 2007 Camaros are, well, non-existent, how can we compare the torsional rigidity of the two, since one set of torsional rigidity measurements would be based upon real tests upon an actual vehicle and the other would be based upon conjecture, supposition, projection, and other subcategories of basic bullshit?

Exactly.  So why are you stating the Camaro won't be as stiff?  You have no idea if it will or not.
?

The problem with the Zeta light platform is that too much is being asked of it.? That alone is not a sin, since 250 HP can pretty much be kept in check by any frame/body you might come up with--sedan, mini-SUV, cross-over, station wagon, hybrid econobox, microvan, whatever.? But add, say, another 150 HP to that 250 and there'd better not be any compromises in the body/frame or you'll have a POS performance car at the limits.? Naturally, if you never drive anywhere close to the limits you might never know.? 250 HP would be just fine for that kind of driving, and you'll seldom if ever get yourself into a serious asshole pucker situation.

The current generation of this platform underpins the Commodore SS-V and the Monaro.  Both are 400+ hp cars.?

Now, I don't like the Camaro one bit and I never have, but I'm not going to to state the car will be a POS because I want it to be.  I can pretty much guarantee it will perform as well or even better then the Mustang.  Ford will be ready this time (not like 1993), but don't kid yourself.  The Camaro will be no slouch.

[Nethead]

Exactly.? So why are you stating the Camaro won't be as stiff?? You have no idea if it will or not.
? The current generation of this platform underpins the Commodore SS-V and the Monaro.? Both are 400+ hp cars.?

Now, I don't like the Camaro one bit and I never have, but I'm not going to to state the car will be a POS because I want it to be.? I can pretty much guarantee it will perform as well or even better then the Mustang.? Ford will be ready this time (not like 1993), but don't kid yourself.? The Camaro will be no slouch.

HemiDude:? We be talkin' body/frame torsional rigidity, not speed.? "One size fits all" may work well in elastic-waisted ladies capri pants, but that ain't no way to go about creatin' a performance car with lotsa bodacious torque and the ability to hit corners fast and hard propelled by a big V8 sittin' just behind the front wheels.? Further upstream in this thread, someone posted rigidity figures for over a dozen vehicles.? Just between you and me, I ain't expectin' the new Camaro to exceed the rigidity of the C6 Z06 in that list.? Are you?

And if you read what I wrote and not what you want that I wrote, you'll see that I take exception with any car by any manufacturer taking a "one size fits all" compromise body/frame and dropping in a 400 HP engine--400 true horsepower can generate a shitload of speed--speed that's got to be balanced by handling and braking or you'll have the last generation of Camaro--the vehicle that the insurance industry's study of vehicular death records found killed more of its occupants that any vehicle sold in the US--more than any pickup, more than any SUV, more than any van/minivan, more than any other ponycar, more than any musclecar, more than any sportscar, more than any exotic, more than any yada yada yada.? After Camaros ceased production, the S10 pickup and its derivatives (Blazers and whatnots) assumed that burden.

If the body/frame of the Holdens you mentioned are already in use in Australia, and they are identical to the body/frame that will underpen the Camaro and other GM vehicles in the distant future, why are they not in use in the US right now?? 

[MX793]

HemiDude: 

If the body/frame of the Holdens you mentioned are already in use in Australia, and they are identical to the body/frame that will underpen the Camaro and other GM vehicles in the distant future, why are they not in use in the US right now?   

Because the car just came out this past year and since Holden is the division that developed/engineered them and is making them (all Zeta production is in Australia right now), they debuted in Australia first. 

FYI, they are coming to the US starting with the Pontiac G8 sometime in the next 6-8 months (a straight-up rebadge of the Commodore, mechanically identical).  That car will initially be imported from Australia and the plan was to start tooling North American plants to produce Zeta cars so that future American Zetas (including a RWD Impala) would be American made.  That may be on hold on account of the new fuel economy regulations, though the G8 is a go.

Just between you and me, I ain't expectin' the new Camaro to exceed the rigidity of the C6 Z06 in that list.  Are you?

The latest Commodore's structure has a torsional natural frequency of ~55 Hz (higher frequency = stiffer).  The Chrysler LX platform which will underpin the Challenger has a natural frequency of ~40 Hz.  The C6 Z06 is 25 Hz.  Which do you think is likely to be the stiffest of the bunch?

[sportyaccordy]

I imagine now in the current automotive context they will be available with 4-cylinder motors as well as diesel inline-6's...

How cool would that be... a 40mpg Camaro...

[Nethead]

The 350Z should be extremely stiff.? I remember reading that it compares quite well to the G35 and M35/45.? I don't know if anyone remembers, a while back on C&D I got bored and started looking up first torsional frequencies listed in HZ. It's a different way of measuring rigidity that also takes into account weight.? I went and dug up that old post.

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=160438&query.id=8030#M160438

"I got bored and I started looking up the first torsional frequency of my Z06 just for kicks. Well I came across an article where GM brags proudly that the C5 almost achieves the torsional rigidity of a good sedan. My mind chewed on this bit of info before having violent information indigestion. What do you mean to tell me my beloved C5 Z06, whose chassis is praised again and again for stiffness, barely matches up to some sedan?

Well I decided to do some digging online, to see just how stiff sports cars are. I always assumed sports cars were the stiffest motor vehicles around. I was wrong. I was so wrong.

BMW Z3 17 Hz
BMWZ4 19.5 Hz
Audi TT roadster 22Hz
C5 coupe(with roof on) 22hz
C5 Z06 24hz.
C6 Z06 25hz.
STS 25hz
Neon 25hz
1996 Ford Taurus 27hz
Lincoln LS 29hz
Crossfire Roadster 29.2 hz
Ford Explorer 30hz
Subaru B9 Tribeca 34.2hz
BMW 5 44.7hz
G35 55.6hz
M35/45 58.1hz

I guess I learned something. I always assumed that sports cars would be the stiffest cars around, but it is just the opposite. If you think about it, it makes sense, it is more difficult to make something as flat as a pancake (aka Corvette) as stiff as the automotive equivalent of a cube (Explorer).

Did everyone know this but me? I feel like this is some huge auto conspiracy. Magazines always talk about how stiff this sports car is, or that sports car is. But they fail to mention that the garden variety Ford Explorer puts them all to shame. "


I guess the take home lesson is that sharing a platform with SUV's and sedans means you'll end up with an overweight platform, but also an extremely stiff one.

565:  Great researchin', 565Dude!  How'd you dig up this broad-ranging data?