The Official Mustang Thread

[Soup DeVille]

None that the Nethead here knows of, SoupDude--Colin Chapman died.  I think the very next article of any kind that I read about Colin Chapman after the solid axle article was a tribute to the late, great genius of Lotus.

A solid axles Lotus would not have been as radical as the AWD Lotus turbines at the '68 Indy, to be sure, but Colin Chapman would not have raced them without extensive testing beforehand.  Unfortunately, the time it takes to develop a think-outside-the-box racecar was more time than Colin Chapman had left.

You, TurboDude, and perhaps others in these forums may assert that Colin Chapman's proposal would not have worked. But you, TurboDude, and the rest of us here aren't Colin Chapman.  None of us here have the legendary intuitive understanding of vehicular dynamics that could make Colin Chapman's proposal work and the man who could is gone.

Someday Colin Chapman's proposal may be proven to be correct--or it may be proven to be otherwise.  I'll place my money on Colin Chapman, thanks.     

Why don't you cite this article that you're talking of so I can try to find it?

[280Z Turbo]

You, TurboDude, and perhaps others in these forums may assert that Colin Chapman's proposal would not have worked. But you, TurboDude, and the rest of us here aren't Colin Chapman.  None of us here have the legendary intuitive understanding of vehicular dynamics that could make Colin Chapman's proposal work and the man who could is gone.

Someday Colin Chapman's proposal may be proven to be correct--or it may be proven to be otherwise.  I'll place my money on Colin Chapman, thanks.     

If Colin Chapman said that a solid axle is BETTER than a good IRS setup, then he's lying piece of shit. Why did he bother designing the "Chapman strut" IRS setup if a cheaper solid axle is better?

I'm thinking that you lost something in translation.

Unfortunatly, the "I thought I once heard some smart guy say this a long time ago" argument doesn't hold much water when you can't back it up.

[Soup DeVille]

If Colin Chapman said that a solid axle is BETTER than a good IRS setup, then he's lying piece of shit. Why did he bother designing the "Chapman strut" IRS setup if a cheaper solid axle is better?

I'm thinking that you lost something in translation.

Unfortunatly, the "I thought I once heard some smart guy say this a long time ago" argument doesn't hold much water when you can't back it up.

Chapman did switch the 7 from a semi-independant DeDion tube rear axle to a solid "live" axle in order to further simplify the car, but the DeDion rear end doesn't really qualify as a "good IRS setup" in the first place.

[SVT666]

Bio-Diesel powered Mustang GT also has vegetable based body panels.  It's fast and clean.

[Nethead]

Kind of hard to to that when there are bumps, curbing, springs compressing in turns, etc.

We run negative camber on our racecars for a reason.

Solid axles don't stay perpendicular to the road.

280Z Turdo: Solid axles aren't supposed to stay perpendicular to the road, so I think I see the problems you've been having .  Try running your solid axles parallel to the road and you'll find yourself finishing many positions higher than ever before .

[SVT666]

280Z Turdo: Solid axles aren't supposed to stay perpendicular to the road, so I think I see the problems you've been having.  Try running your solid axles parallel to the road and you'll find yourself finishing many positions higher than ever before...

[ChrisV]

280Z Turdo: Solid axles aren't supposed to stay perpendicular to the road, so I think I see the problems you've been having .  Try running your solid axles parallel to the road and you'll find yourself finishing many positions higher than ever before .

lol! He meant the tires don't stay perpendicular, I'd bet. And of course, he's right.

Say you're in the middle of a corner and your inside rear wheel goes up over the curbing. That forces the outside rear wheel to camber outward relative to the pavement, reducing the contact patch, right when you need it most, on the tire that's loaded. That's the effect that a live axle can have when bumps are involved, and it can lead to squirmy handling.

But, as the road racing Mustangs are proving, that's not necessarily as much of an issue as many had first thought, at least as far as road racing is concerned.

[ChrisV]

These are all valid points: but answer this question honestly:

Would any road race car designer/engineer in the world who had the ability to start a clean sheet design and was not prevented from doing so by the rules of whatever race he/she is building for: would they choose a solid axle over an IRS?

Conversely, Would they choose coil springs instead of leaves? yet we know that the Corvette's transverse leaf works better than a coil for many reasons, and the one way it works "worse," the ability to make a number of different rates and change it quickly ala coilover, is the only thing keeping it out of the road race versions. So, racers use what they know.

Also, for formula cars, which is the standard for designing from scratch, using a live axle isn't very good packaging, vs a transaxle, so there's another strike against it vs. what racers know. But in a sedan based application, its strengths may outweigh its drawbacks. We can't tell because few people try it. But back in the day, group 5 racers used live axles in Capris and Mustangs well against the Porsches, and Group 5 allowed a lot of leeway with the rules.

[GoCougs]

"Better" of course is subjective until clarified, but here's a lot more than the inability to make quick changes that keeps the transverse leaf off of the C6R, or pretty much every other high performance production car in the world.

The torsion bar too is an elegant design, and has some of the apparent advantages of a transverse leaf, yet it is gone as well.

[Soup DeVille]

ChrisV:  ChrisDude, thank you for the informative, concise, and courteous contribution to this little side discussion in The Official Mustang Thread!

Colin Chapman was, of course, talking about roadracing vehicles in his live axle statements.  Doubtless he had considered the effects that track debris can have on suspension systems.  Maybe the industrious SoupDude will find the quote.  'Never thought to write it down or tear out the page from the mag 'cuz I didn't expect to have a pop quiz on live axles twenty-five-odd years later.  How damned shortsighted of me, I gotta admit.

Anyhooooo, SoupDude should hurry and post Chapman's quote about live axles as it will doubtless be an almost religious experience to those who race with their solid axles perpendicular to the road.  Unfortunately, you never really hear much about those guys because 280Z Turdo is just about to complete his third lap at the 2004 Indy 500...I gotta hand it to those guys :  they're outclassed, but on the other hand they're slow .   

It's your quote, not mine, and I'd simply like to see it in context- as in the context of why its can be superior than a DeDion tube, and several buts added to that; not as you seem to be claiming that it was a quote granting unltimate superiority. You state one reason why solid axles are better: which I agree with and have stated as much in the past: on that one point alone.

One point however, is not the deciding factor in the design, is it?

[Minpin]

I forget where but I remember an argument about how much of a markup GT500's are getting. This is almost no markup. Edit: Oops, just realized it has 1k miles.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=221050158&dealer_id=1150545&car_year=2007&model=MUST&num_records=&make2=&start_year=2005&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=8%20Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=FORD&color=&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=77381&advanced=y&end_year=2008&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=&cardist=200

[SVT666]

Ford and Shelby Automobiles will soon launch the 2008 Shelby GT500KR ? the most powerful Mustang to date. Inspired by the 1968 Shelby Cobra GT500KR, this "King of the Road" was originally slated to have 540 horsepower and 510 pound-feet of torque, but today Ford announced that the GT500KR will have 550 horsepower. No reason was given for the power increase.

Power is delivered to the rear wheels through a Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual transmission and 3.73:1 rear axle ratio, upgraded from the standard GT500?s 3.31:1. Gear selection is courtesy of an all-new Ford Racing short-throw shifter making its debut on the KR. Topped with a white ball, the new shifter is 25 percent shorter than the unit on the GT500 providing for crisper, sharper shifts.

Ford SVT, Ford Racing and Team Shelby worked together to develop the KR?s suspension tuning. Based on initial work by Ford Racing and the team at Shelby, often at Shelby?s own facility on the grounds of Las Vegas Motor Speedway, Ford SVT chassis engineers will apply fine tuning techniques to prepare it for the streets.

?The production Shelby GT500 was maximized to deliver the perfect balance between ride and handling,? said Jamal Hameedi, chief nameplate engineer, Ford SVT. ?In that same ride versus handling continuum, the KR will lean heavier towards all-out handling while still making it drivable on the street.?

[SVT666]

I know it's not a Mustang, but it's a Mustang competitor so I'm putting it in here.  The highlighted part dissapoints me:

Chrysler began ramping up the PR machine for their upcoming release of the Dodge Challenger, expected to be revealed at the Chicago Auto Show on February 6, next year.
The company announced yesterday that the first two all-new, 2008 Dodge Challenger vehicles to come off the Brampton, ON, assembly plant production line will be auctioned, with proceeds benefiting local charities.

The vehicles chosen to be auctioned for charity will all be Street and Racing Technology (SRT) models. Each will feature a HEMI Orange exterior, hood stripes, a 6.1-liter HEMI V-8 engine and a five-speed automatic transmission with Autostick.

Proceeds from Dodge Challenger No. 1 will benefit notMYkid, an organization dedicated to facilitating improved understanding about youth behavioral health issues including suicide, drug abuse, eating disorders and depression. This car will be auctioned at the 37th annual Barret-Jackson Collector Car Auction Event in Scottsdale, Ariz., Jan. 12-20, 2008.
Proceeds from Dodge Challenger No. 2 will benefit the United Way of Southeastern Michigan, through a private auction for Dodge dealers. The auction begins Sept. 26.

Information about a third Challenger to be auctioned on eBay.com will be announced at a later date.

"Dodge is thrilled to build on the excitement of the countdown to the return of the Challenger by giving consumers the chance to get one of the first all-new 2008 Dodge Challenger vehicles produced," said Mike Accavitti, Director ・Dodge Brand and SRT Marketing.

"The Dodge Challenger is an icon and the revival of this storied nameplate has enthusiasts chomping at the bit to get one. Consumers now have the opportunity to not only own the car of their dreams, but to help those in less fortunate circumstances as well."

[TheIntrepid]

Challenger > GT500KR.

[SVT666]

Challenger > GT500KR.

You're crazy.  550 hp vs. 425 hp.  GT500KR > Challenger

[JYODER240]

IntrepiDude:  So where were Challengers for the last thirty years?

That is one of the weakest arguements there is.

[Eye of the Tiger]

That is one of the weakest arguements there is.

This whole thread is the weakest argument there is. 

[JYODER240]

This whole thread is the weakest argument there is. 

[SVT666]

After all, Challengers flopped even when options included the REAL Hemi and 440 Six-Paks.

Hmmmmm....440 Six-Paks

[Raza]

I really can't wait for the new Challenger.

[Soup DeVille]

J ODOR 240: Challengers pissed-a-deer because customers weren't buying 'em. They were still buyin' Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, etc.--direct competitors to Challengers.  Of all the legion of Mustang imitations, only the Javelin became extinct earlier than the Challenger.  Now, sales may not be the only criteria by which cars are judged, but sales are the criteria that count the most.  After all, Challengers flopped even when options included the REAL Hemi and 440 Six-Paks and high-test was maybe $.80/gallon.  But at least the new Challenger will be the heaviest Mustang imitation in history...

By that logic, Corvettes are greater than Enzos, Escorts are greater than Lancia Delta Integrales, and Camrys are the greatest car ever.

[TheIntrepid]

I really can't wait for the new Challenger.

I only say I'm going to buy one. In reality I realize that the gas mileage on a 6.1 Hemi will be too awful to bother buying. I'd rather buy a Mustang GT.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I only say I'm going to buy one. In reality I realize that the gas mileage on a 6.1 Hemi will be too awful to bother buying. I'd rather buy a Mustang GT.

Who cares? It's a damn muscle car!

[TheIntrepid]

Who cares? It's a damn muscle car!

I'd still have 3 years of law school in California left. I don't think I'll have the funds to have 2 cars.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'd still have 3 years of law school in California left. I don't think I'll have the funds to have 2 cars.

Dude, you only need one Challenger. 

[SVT666]

I only say I'm going to buy one. In reality I realize that the gas mileage on a 6.1 Hemi will be too awful to bother buying. I'd rather buy a Mustang GT.

Not only that, the Challenger will most likely only be built for about 3-5 years and even used they will be fetching more money then I am willing to spend on a car.  I would love one though.  No slouch itself, the Mustang GT will definitely be my car of choice when it's time to get a new car.

[TheIntrepid]

Dude, you only need one Challenger. 

I'll need a 4-door as long as I have school. I haul around friends far too often to get a 2-door. I would not appreciate the inconvenience of flipping the front seats forward to let people into/out of the back.

[SVT666]

I'd still have 3 years of law school in California left. I don't think I'll have the funds to have 2 cars.

If you are in school in the US, you won't be able to afford one car never mind two.

[SVT666]

I'll need a 4-door as long as I have school. I haul around friends far too often to get a 2-door. I would not appreciate the inconvenience of flipping the front seats forward to let people into/out of the back.

You have strange priorities.  Fuck your friends, but what you want.

[TheIntrepid]

If you are in school in the US, you won't be able to afford one car never mind two.

My parents are paying for school.