The Official Mustang Thread

[GoCougs]

So, contrary to a lot of assumptions, the GT500 doesn't actually have a proper launch control mode in the same sense that Porsche and others have.  Per a recent MT article:

MT also noted that the strip they used for testing, while technically prepared, was a bit "torn up" and that their 11.3 quarter mile was not representative of what the car was truly capable up.  They felt it was at least an 11 flat car, which means an even better driver could probably get it into the 10s given optimal conditions.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2020/better-sports-car-2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-gt500/

A $100k performance car with a DCT, line lock and "over torque shifting drag mode" has no launch control, yet something like a GTI, A4, or Camaro, does? Even the Mustang GT does.

Either Ford failed in spectacular fashion, or M/T doesn't know what it is talking about (my bet is the latter).

[giant_mtb]

Look at us. Complaining that the car doesn't drive itself enough.

[r0tor]

Wow I had no idea the Giulia 2.0 only revs to 5500 RPM, or is it 6000? That tach is confusing.  Either way it's lower than I assumed it would be. 

6k... I wish it were higher, but with 8 gears and peak torque at 2000 rpms it works rather well

[r0tor]

Funny once upon a time Ford execs freaked out that the Mustang name was going to be used on a FWD car and hit the abort button... and now Ford execs are fine using the name on an electric SUV


... How times have changed...

[CaminoRacer]

Look at us. Complaining that the car doesn't drive itself enough.

[MX793]

A $100k performance car with a DCT, line lock and "over torque shifting drag mode" has no launch control, yet something like a GTI, A4, or Camaro, does? Even the Mustang GT does.

Either Ford failed in spectacular fashion, or M/T doesn't know what it is talking about (my bet is the latter).

Mustang GT's "Launch control" is similar.  It's basically just a rev limiter to hold a preset RPM when the throttle is mashed to the floor until you release the clutch.  I think with the GT you can leave the TCS on, in which case you get some degree of "floor it and forget it", but the TCS can be pretty intrusive and may actually result in worse times.

Edit:  On the GT, TCS has to be enabled to use LC.  That said, it's not a specialized, "launch control" traction management algorithm.  It's just normal traction control.  On the GT, you don't even have to do anything to initialize the launch control.  You just check a box and it's on all the time.  Any time you come to a complete stop, the rev limiter for launch is set and you can mash the pedal and it will rev up to and hold whatever RPM you had it set at.

[GoCougs]

11.2 @ 128 (@4.34):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UnQZZElHDw

[MX793]

11.2 @ 128 (@4.34):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UnQZZElHDw

All of their test footage is at LVMS.  In summer.  In the middle of the day.  Which means not only at some altitude (a couple thousand over sea level), but also quite hot.  You can argue that the SC overcomes the air density difference at altitude (and they aren't exactly in Denver), but they are sensitive to heat.  And they said they only got a couple of shots (probably 3), likely as part of a larger press day event that many other YouTubers posting reviews of the car attended, which means that car may have had some heat soak (on top of the heat of the day, temperatures in Vegas when the press events were held were well into the 90s) from other testers and who knows how many runs were on those tires.

[12,000 RPM]

An 11.2 is fucking fast

This thing is a cool day and decent strip away from running 10s no problem

[FoMoJo]

An 11.2 is fucking fast

This thing is a cool day and decent strip away from running 10s no problem

Yes.  Already proven.

[Eye of the Tiger]

An 11.2 is fucking fast

This thing is a cool day and decent strip away from running 10s no problem

It needs NAWS

[CaminoRacer]

All of their test footage is at LVMS.  In summer.  In the middle of the day.  Which means not only at some altitude (a couple thousand over sea level), but also quite hot.  You can argue that the SC overcomes the air density difference at altitude (and they aren't exactly in Denver), but they are sensitive to heat.  And they said they only got a couple of shots (probably 3), likely as part of a larger press day event that many other YouTubers posting reviews of the car attended, which means that car may have had some heat soak (on top of the heat of the day, temperatures in Vegas when the press events were held were well into the 90s) from other testers and who knows how many runs were on those tires.

Wouldn't a supercharger require a pulley change to really adjust for altitude?

Top Fuel and Funny Car were running very fast at the NHRA event a couple of weeks ago at LVMS but it was November vs summer. And they can tune the engines specifically for that track.

[MX793]

Wouldn't a supercharger require a pulley change to really adjust for altitude?

Top Fuel and Funny Car were running very fast at the NHRA event a couple of weeks ago at LVMS but it was November vs summer. And they can tune the engines specifically for that track.

Depends.  Some have pressure bypass valves because they can generate more boost than the engine can use.  S/C Audi engines were this way.  At altitude, the valve simply wouldn't open, or wouldn't open as much, so the engine could compensate for altitude.  And Vegas isn't that high up.  Like I said, it's not Denver or Mexico City, but it's certainly well higher up than anyplace in Florida.  Temperature would have much more of an effect, plus the condition of the tires.  Those ultra-hipo summer tires start to degrade after enough temperature cycles (like staging burnouts at a strip).  I know my RE71s, which are somewhere between MPS4S and Cup2s, have lost some of their magic after 70 or so auto-x runs.

[GoCougs]

All of their test footage is at LVMS.  In summer.  In the middle of the day.  Which means not only at some altitude (a couple thousand over sea level), but also quite hot.  You can argue that the SC overcomes the air density difference at altitude (and they aren't exactly in Denver), but they are sensitive to heat.  And they said they only got a couple of shots (probably 3), likely as part of a larger press day event that many other YouTubers posting reviews of the car attended, which means that car may have had some heat soak (on top of the heat of the day, temperatures in Vegas when the press events were held were well into the 90s) from other testers and who knows how many runs were on those tires.

If it was run at Las Vegas, the press event was in the latter portion of October of this year, not the summer. Weather history shows high temps were in the 70s at that time for most days, not the 90s.

If Las Vegas was at such disadvantage, why hold the event there, with Ford knowing participants would post their times? And all this heat soak and worn out tires and pretty much all the cars from this event were running 11.2-11-3?

The GT500 at 5.5 lb/hp is the same as the C7 Z06, which is a bonafide low/mid 11 sec car. Ford is ruining things by claiming the GT500 is a mid 10 sec car. The GT500 is interesting, but confused and befuddled.

[Soup DeVille]

Well, its generally easier to get people to come to Vegas than say, Charlotte.

[GoCougs]

Well, its generally easier to get people to come to Vegas than say, Charlotte.

Ford's not gonna have a problem getting favorable RSVPs to a GT500 track event unveiling. Ford's also not gonna choose a venue that'll put the GT500 1/2 a football field in deficit.

[MX793]

Ford's not gonna have a problem getting favorable RSVPs to a GT500 track event unveiling. Ford's also not gonna choose a venue that'll put the GT500 1/2 a football field in deficit.

Ford also wouldn't have limited those at the press event to 3 runs down the 1/4 mile, each, if they were concerned about the press getting the absolute best possible times.

[GoCougs]

Ford also wouldn't have limited those at the press event to 3 runs down the 1/4 mile, each, if they were concerned about the press getting the absolute best possible times.

With DCT drag mode, launch control and line lock - there's nothing to do, other than of course keeping the go pedal pegged.

[12,000 RPM]

My question is what is the practical difference between an 11.2 and 10.9

It's stupid that Ford did this given their history with underperforming Cobras.... but what's really the downside outside of dick waving (which someone would buy slicks for anyway)

[MX793]

With DCT drag mode, launch control and line lock - there's nothing to do, other than of course keeping the go pedal pegged.

So apparently there was a 40 mph headwind at the track during the press day (or at least one of the press days, seems there were multiple days)...  Looking at historical weather data, I'm guessing event was held on the last weekend of October.  There was a strong wind out of the north (track runs south to north) on the 27th.

https://youtu.be/1Iav2iUOt88?t=263

[GoCougs]

So apparently there was a 40 mph headwind at the track during the press day (or at least one of the press days, seems there were multiple days)...  Looking at historical weather data, I'm guessing event was held on the last weekend of October.  There was a strong wind out of the north (track runs south to north) on the 27th.

https://youtu.be/1Iav2iUOt88?t=263

He musters a 11.44, which vs. the 11.2 and 11.3 of other postings, is believable due to headwind, so...

[MX793]

Another test, looks like from the same event but the wind is definitely much lower (maybe from the previous day of the weekend?).  Effective altitude was 4000 ft above sea level, which is much higher than I had been thinking they were at.  Definitely enough to potentially hamper performance.

http://youtu.be/P4GLzsOy33Q?t=667

[MX793]

And another reviewer indicating that the "launch control" in the GT500 is not a fool-proof, "floor it and forget it" affair like in many other cars.  The driver sets the launch RPM, which will require some level of optimization because different levels of grip will warrant different launch RPMs.  Too low and you might bog, too high and you might smoke the tires on the launch.  This is similar to the implementation in the regular Mustangs.  Picking the right RPM in just 3 or 4 tries in a car you're unfamiliar with on a track you are unfamiliar with would be a stroke of luck.

https://youtu.be/21Iyf999ZZE?t=1295

[GoCougs]

The "regular" Mustang does not have DCT.

I'm just curious what data there is that points to the GT500 being anything materially better than the 11.2-11.4 car that it has thus far been proven to be.

I mean, we all know 10.6 is factually untrue - that's ZR1 and F12 territory - also both RWD and 760 hp +/- but some 500-700 lbs lighter.

Many many examples of powerful RWD cars (C7 Z06, Hellcats, Viper, S197 GT500) reinforces GT500 to-date acceleration performance.

[MX793]

The "regular" Mustang does not have DCT.

DCT in and of itself does not improve your launch.  Mustang's launch control is fairly rudimentary, and the system requires the driver select the optimal launch RPM for the conditions to get the best launch.

[FoMoJo]

Considering that 10.6 was achieved, I suspect that someone with the wherewithall to dial in the optimal launch and with the help of the DCT, ratios, mapping and split second shift did the job.  Denying this sounds like sour grapes .

The tractability of the Predator likely contributed as well.

[GoCougs]

Considering that 10.6 was achieved, I suspect that someone with the wherewithall to dial in the optimal launch and with the help of the DCT, ratios, mapping and split second shift did the job.  Denying this sounds like sour grapes .

The tractability of the Predator likely contributed as well.

Sour grapes? With the lowly $60k Corvette C8 proving to be quicker car thus far? . But really it's not a competition, or bashing Ford, but this 10.6 stuff attracts its own heat in a way.

Actually, with a 7,500 RPM red line and no VVL (plus ~4,200 lbs and only 7 speeds), the Predator by definition has issues with tractability.

[FoMoJo]

Sour grapes? With the lowly $60k Corvette C8 proving to be quicker car thus far? . But really it's not a competition, or bashing Ford, but this 10.6 stuff attracts its own heat in a way.

Actually, with a 7,500 RPM red line and no VVL (plus ~4,200 lbs and only 7 speeds), the Predator by definition has issues with tractability.

I have no issues with the C8.  GM has done an admirable job with the design, layout and even with the 8 spd...though not likely to use the 1st spd unless in track mode...DCT with a ratio range that gives them excellent times with limited BHP, though many would say that it's more than enough.

As for the GT500, for what it is, it's more than expected and the 10.6 quarter mile, even given by a competent driver, is now a fact.  No alternative facts allowed.

Some helpful information...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDt6wRQXzVE

[GoCougs]

I have no issues with the C8.  GM has done an admirable job with the design, layout and even with the 8 spd...though not likely to use the 1st spd unless in track mode...DCT with a ratio range that gives them excellent times with limited BHP, though many would say that it's more than enough.

As for the GT500, for what it is, it's more than expected and the 10.6 quarter mile, even given by a competent driver, is now a fact.  No alternative facts allowed.

Some helpful information...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDt6wRQXzVE

Yikes. That explains a good portion of it right there. In the first few seconds of the vid: ~2,700 - 3,000 rpm drop on the 1st-2nd shift, which is way too much, esp. without VVL. Should be 2,000 rpm at most, and most any performance car with a 7sp or 8sp, it's more like ~1,500 rpm:

2019 911 (7 sp DCT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R90--ThtkxU

2019 RS5 (8 sp AT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQPxkzOI7U

2018 Z06 (8sp AT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xm3oKIIb94

[MX793]

Well, these guys managed to crack into the 10s, consistently, at the Ford press day in Vegas despite the altitude.  Looks like every other tester was launching the car at too high an RPM.  They dropped their launch RPM to 2000-2200 and got off the line with no wheelspin.  Earlier in the video they showed several cars running 11.2-11.4 and they all were spinning the wheels at launch (and every other video from LVMS includes wheelspin and tire screech).  Best time of 10.85, which when adjusted for the atmospheric conditions on the day was 10.5xx.

http://youtu.be/o0BK4lr_-t0?t=464

So, yeah, looks like it's more than capable of running sub 11