Are the days of Factory Muscle almost over?

[SVT666]

That's actually not a bad idea.

The previous gen (well, previous sheetmetal) 9-5 was pretty hot looking, came in a good sized wagon form, and was available with a stickshift. According to edmunds, even at dealer retail they are running under 20k for a 2003 Aero model:





A 2002 model would be under 15k!

I want 2005 so I can at least get 2 years of warranty and relatively low kms on the clock.? Besides, I'm not exactly a Saab kinda guy.  Hell, I don't think I'm even much of a Mazda kinda guy.

[Raza]

That's actually not a bad idea.

The previous gen (well, previous sheetmetal) 9-5 was pretty hot looking, came in a good sized wagon form, and was available with a stickshift. According to edmunds, even at dealer retail they are running under 20k for a 2003 Aero model:





A 2002 model would be under 15k!

What kind of highway mileage does an Aero stickshift get?

[SJ_GTI]

I want 2005 so I can at least get 2 years of warranty and relatively low kms on the clock.? Besides, I'm not exactly a Saab kinda guy.? Hell, I don't think I'm even much of a Mazda kinda guy.

Forgetting Saab in specific for a moment, you should know as you start shopping that most makes now come with pretty good CPO warranties. I am not familiar with Saab, but BMW and Audi both have fantastic CPO warranties. You would be responsible for maintenance/wear and tear, but pretty much everything is covered for 100k miles (in Canada its like ~150k kilometers). If cost is a big factor in your purchase, CPO makes a lot of sense compared to new.

[Champ]

What kind of highway mileage does an Aero stickshift get?

Close to 30 if not over.

*Just did a fast search at Saabnet.com, and 2000+ Aero's (all the same, some wagon some sedan) owners are reporting anywhere from 28-33 mpg on the highway.

[SVT666]

Forgetting Saab in specific for a moment, you should know as you start shopping that most makes now come with pretty good CPO warranties. I am not familiar with Saab, but BMW and Audi both have fantastic CPO warranties. You would be responsible for maintenance/wear and tear, but pretty much everything is covered for 100k miles (in Canada its like ~150k kilometers). If cost is a big factor in your purchase, CPO makes a lot of sense compared to new.

Except that it requires the purchase of a BMW or Audi.

[SJ_GTI]

Except that it requires the purchase of a BMW or Audi.

I think its fairly common though. I mention those specifically because those are the brands I have some experience with. As you get closer to purchase, i would just suggest checking with each manufacturer to see what their policies are. In general CPO cars are a better value and have longer warranties than new cars.

[sandertheshark]

So you don't think that the days factory muscle are almost over?

At the moment I am sitting across the street from a Dodge dealership, a Chevy dealership, a BMW dealership, and Mercedes dealership.  I can walk into any one of them right now and discuss the purchase of a factory production car producing 500hp or more.  My friend, we are in the heyday of factory muscle.

[SVT666]

At the moment I am sitting across the street from a Dodge dealership, a Chevy dealership, a BMW dealership, and Mercedes dealership.? I can walk into any one of them right now and discuss the purchase of a factory production car producing 500hp or more.? My friend, we are in the heyday of factory muscle.

YOu're not answering the question.  I'm not arguing our current situation because anybody with half a brain knows that this is the age of horsepower.  The question is, are the days of factory muscle coming to an end?  I say yes.

[Raza]

I think we'll see the end of hybrids before the end of factory muscle.

[sandertheshark]

YOu're not answering the question.  I'm not arguing our current situation because anybody with half a brain knows that this is the age of horsepower.  The question is, are the days of factory muscle coming to an end?  I say yes.

I say no.  There will always be a demand for major manufacturers to produce high-performance models.  Chevy will always be building better and faster corvettes and they will always slap an SS badge on any plebian car they squeeze a few extra horsepower out of.  SVT might be dying with ford but the other in-house tuners (SRT, AMG, ///M etc.) aren't going anywhere.  I don't see an end to the demand for factory muscle just because Washington wants stickier emissions regs.

[SVT666]

I think we'll see the end of hybrids before the end of factory muscle.

I can't agree with you on that one.  Last year I would have been the first to agree, but with the new Hybrids becoming so seamless, I think they will become more and more popular even though they don't fix anything.

[3.0L V6]

Cars are pretty quick today. The V6 editions of most cars smoke the 'performance' cars of the past. Stuff like the Mazdaspeed6 and 300 SRT-8 and Ram SRT-10 is either too pricey or too stiff riding for the average person. They don't offer enough of an acceleration benefit over the cheaper models to justify the cost.

People will always love a cheap, quick car a la SRT-4 or Mazdaspeed3, but outside of dedicated cars like the Corvette, the demand isn't there, ergo the incentives on the Mazdaspeed6 and the discontinuation of the SRT-10.

[Raza]

I can't agree with you on that one.  Last year I would have been the first to agree, but with the new Hybrids becoming so seamless, I think they will become more and more popular even though they don't fix anything.

Let's not forget that the only hybrids that are really selling are the obvious hybrids; that is, the Prius.  Honda ditched the Accord, I don't think the Civic Hybrid is far behind.

[SVT666]

I say no.? There will always be a demand for major manufacturers to produce high-performance models.? Chevy will always be building better and faster corvettes and they will always slap an SS badge on any plebian car they squeeze a few extra horsepower out of.? SVT might be dying with ford but the other in-house tuners (SRT, AMG, ///M etc.) aren't going anywhere.? I don't see an end to the demand for factory muscle just because Washington wants stickier emissions regs.

You honestly that the horsepower on the Vette, Viper, Mustang, etc. is going to keep climbing?  You're living in a dreamworld.  Back in the 70s and early 80' the Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, etc. had under 200hp at times.  It may not be that dramatic, but it will happen again.  Just when the muscle era of the 60s and early 70s was hitting full stride it tanked, and I think it will happen again.  Like I said, not as bad, but it will happen again.  By the way, SRT has already discontinued the Ram and there is talk the Magnum and 300 variants won't make it past 2010.  Manufacturers will try and squeeze every last horsepower for as long as they can, but I don't think this trend will last much past 2010.

[Nethead]

3.0L V6, Raza, and HemiDude are talkin' good sense here.  In the end, it's not about horsepower or torque but about sales.  Look how far Toyota and Honda have come with very little of either--and then look at their sales...

If horsepower and torque can sell cars at profit percentages high enough to be considered to be worth the costs (which includes some intangibles, like corporate image), then the future of performance cars is bright.      If not,    

There's lots of issues here, including what might be considered a "performance car" if gasoline prices continue to escalate.  The fear, of course, is that stricter emissions & mileage requirements will cause the sticker prices of high horsepower & high torque vehicles to soar beyond the $50k barrier like they were trying to exceed escape velocity.  If that happens, a "performance car" might become a Miata with a Vortech and a "musclecar" might become a Toyota tC with a Tundra V8 dropped in.   
World of the Damned...

[Vinsanity]

a "musclecar" might become a Toyota tC with a Tundra V8 dropped in.? ?

that sounds kinda cool, actually
as long as they make it RWD, of course

[Nethead]

that sounds kinda cool, actually
as long as they make it RWD, of course

Vinsanity: VinDude, I have often said that the Mustang has little to fear from the Camaro and the Challenger, but a Tundra-engined tC tuned for the weight of the tC instead of the weight of the Tundra could be a formidable foe indeed--dirt cheap for the HP, parts already in the bin, ricedudes whippin' off every time one goes by, no unnecessary second pair of doors, lightweight frame/body (maybe too light for the torque), Toyota's bankroll, yada yada yada...