I havent even watched the video yet.
New Porsche 991 GT3. First Drive. - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVdme4ISq8Y#ws)
Nice wheels!
I would take that over any ferrari, audi, lambo, mc claren , bugatti, or any other exotic out there
Sounds nice.
very nice
I love this car so much - more than any other car that has existed (save other 911s and the F1)
I would kill you all just to have one. (Raza and Wimmer twice)
I'm pretty sure Raza and his shovel have things handled.
Quote from: Char on June 12, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
I love this car so much - more than any other car that has existed (save other 911s and the F1)
I would kill you all just to have one. (Raza and Wimmer twice)
You do realize its a Volkswagen rite
Im really not crazy about the transmission. Not gonna open up that can of worms but Raza's FOG theory was correct.
Chris makes a good point about the lack of a manual gearbox. Since this is sort of the stronghold of the driver's car, it's sad not to have the option at least.
Well, I'm sure they'll sell more now that it's automatic only.
The GT3 has moved into that GT-R territory. I understand it, I appreciate its technical mastery, but I just don't love it. Too many buttons for a GT3.
Inevitable, yes. Regrettable? Yes. As long as old ones are still around when I have the money to buy an old one, it's fine. This is all feels too much like the Cayenne to me.
Just look at how fast that thing revs. I can't imagine trying to keep up with that beastly engine with a conventional manual.
Yum. I would do terrible things for this car.
Quote from: MrH on June 12, 2013, 09:09:32 PM
Just look at how fast that thing revs. I can't imagine trying to keep up with that beastly engine with a conventional manual.
Its doable w/a good manual
Meh, I'm over the lack of manual on this. Get a Carrera S if its that important to you.
Why does the availability of different transmissions make sense on a Carrera but not the GT3
It should be the other way around.
No sense crying about it though. The markeths speaketh. Ke$ha wants a GT3
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 06:47:18 AM
Why does the availability of different transmissions make sense on a Carrera but not the GT3
It should be the other way around.
No sense crying about it though. The markeths speaketh. Ke$ha wants a GT3
It is what it is, I agree. As long as there are good mechanics out there, enthusiasts will find a way to keep their cars running. Ke$ha can set the PDK to ghost ride mode and walk alongside it in her next music video for all I care. I want a 911 SC.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 06:47:18 AM
Why does the availability of different transmissions make sense on a Carrera but not the GT3
It should be the other way around.
No sense crying about it though. The markeths speaketh. Ke$ha wants a GT3
It's a significantly more focused car than the Carrera, so shouldn't be that surprising there are fewer choices. So no, the other way around would make no sense.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 12, 2013, 09:28:49 PM
Its doable w/a good manual
I disagree.
Maybe it's a stupid metric, but I've got a racing seat and 6-speed manual + clutch setup for Gran Turismo. Anything pushing 350 or 400+ hp becomes almost unmanageable with a stick. You're diving from apex to apex so quick, trying to focus on heel toeing and being in the right gear is near impossible. You've got 7 gears to choose from, each of which you're in for a matter of seconds at most before you upshift or downshifts.
It's like hurtling towards the sun, and seconds before your impending death, you have to tie your shoes before hitting the brakes. It's nuts.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 07:38:46 AM
I disagree.
Maybe it's a stupid metric, but I've got a racing seat and 6-speed manual + clutch setup for Gran Turismo. Anything pushing 350 or 400+ hp becomes almost unmanageable with a stick. You're diving from apex to apex so quick, trying to focus on heel toeing and being in the right gear is near impossible. You've got 7 gears to choose from, each of which you're in for a matter of seconds at most before you upshift or downshifts.
It's like hurtling towards the sun, and seconds before your impending death, you have to tie your shoes before hitting the brakes. It's nuts.
350 horsepower is unmanageable with a stick?
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 08:06:56 AM
350 horsepower is unmanageable with a stick?
On a track, yes, it's very difficult to worry about braking points and hitting the right line. Upsetting the balance of a car with a downshift becomes more critical as you get to higher and higher speeds. I can mistime a heel toe downshift a little on my BRZ and be ok. If you did that in a car like this during hard braking, you're off the track.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:09:22 AM
On a track, yes, it's very difficult to worry about braking points and hitting the right line. Upsetting the balance of a car with a downshift becomes more critical as you get to higher and higher speeds. I can mistime a heel toe downshift a little on my BRZ and be ok. If you did that in a car like this during hard braking, you're off the track.
Oh, this illusion again?
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 08:22:25 AM
Oh, this illusion again?
It's an illusion now?
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:30:39 AM
It's an illusion now?
That the majority of exotic car owners regularly track their cars? Yeah.
GT3 owners? Yeah, a ton of them do.
Even if you're not on a track. When your limits get higher, hitting things right becomes more and more critical. If you're not even remotely concerned with things like upsetting the balance, braking points, clipping apexes, you're not even in the same universe to touching this car's potential. Why even bother getting this over a base Carrera then?
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:34:43 AM
GT3 owners? Yeah, a ton of them do.
Even if you're not on a track. When your limits get higher, hitting things right becomes more and more critical. If you're not even remotely concerned with things like upsetting the balance, braking points, clipping apexes, you're not even in the same universe to touching this car's potential. Why even bother getting this over a base Carrera then?
The same reason why most people buy expensive or exotic cars. It's more expensive. It's jewelry you drive.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:09:22 AM
On a track, yes, it's very difficult to worry about braking points and hitting the right line. Upsetting the balance of a car with a downshift becomes more critical as you get to higher and higher speeds. I can mistime a heel toe downshift a little on my BRZ and be ok. If you did that in a car like this during hard braking, you're off the track.
Not if you're a good driver. Technology should exist to supplement driving skills, not replace them. If you can't hit the right line at full tilt w/stick + clutch, drive slower, learn the car and build your skills + coordination until you can. Bypassing that learning process just seems like a huge cop out for people who claim to be good drivers and enthusiasts.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 08:45:47 AM
The same reason why most people buy expensive or exotic cars. It's more expensive. It's jewelry you drive.
If this is just expensive jewelry, why do you care?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 08:49:43 AM
Not if you're a good driver. Technology should exist to supplement driving skills, not replace them. If you can't hit the right line at full tilt w/stick + clutch, drive slower, learn the car and build your skills + coordination until you can. Bypassing that learning process just seems like a huge cop out for people who claim to be good drivers and enthusiasts.
Serious LOL at how easy you think it is to drive one of these all out properly.
And yes, they replaced the driving skill in GT3 Cup cars too by having sequential manuals in them. My mother could keep up with those guys now!
All I'm saying is, if your solution is to drive slower and learn until you can drive do all these things perfectly full out, no one would come close to touching the performance potential of these cars. Might as well just get a base 911.
Why aren't you guys advocating bringing back manual choke operation? Hand cranked engines?
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 07:38:46 AM
I disagree.
Maybe it's a stupid metric, but I've got a racing seat and 6-speed manual + clutch setup for Gran Turismo. Anything pushing 350 or 400+ hp becomes almost unmanageable with a stick. You're diving from apex to apex so quick, trying to focus on heel toeing and being in the right gear is near impossible. You've got 7 gears to choose from, each of which you're in for a matter of seconds at most before you upshift or downshifts.
It's like hurtling towards the sun, and seconds before your impending death, you have to tie your shoes before hitting the brakes. It's nuts.
Racing games don't even give you an accurate sense of speed.
And if you're going to mis-time shifts, drive slower until you can nail those shifts every time. Saying "oh I can't manage it with a stick" is a cop out excuse. Seems like people just want the car to be easier to drive while they show off how fast they are, instead of improving their skills along with their speed.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not a cop out. It's "hey, let's focus at the difficult task at hand instead of fiddling with an antiquated process that can't even come close to keeping up with the rest of the car."
These cars are so extreme, trying to saddle the driver with extraneous steps seems kind of silly. I think we're all in the mindset of comparing them to what we experience in our daily driving. Yeah, I'll take my slow BRZ with a manual over a DSG anyday. But in this machine? It's like trying to blast to the moon in a rocket, but you've got to shovel coal into the furnace the entire time while piloting it. Your answer is to slow down until you learn to shovel better. Even when you're the best at it, you're still missing out and it's detracting from ability to use it best.
It's the same reason I don't want a manual choke on a Ferrari 458. It's holding me back from the experiencing the ridiculousness of it.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:58:03 AM
If this is just expensive jewelry, why do you care?
As I stated above, I don't care.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 07:07:41 AM
It is what it is, I agree. As long as there are good mechanics out there, enthusiasts will find a way to keep their cars running. Ke$ha can set the PDK to ghost ride mode and walk alongside it in her next music video for all I care. I want a 911 SC.
:lol: The day someone ghost rides their GT3 around a track...
Quote from: thecarnut on June 13, 2013, 09:00:49 AM
Racing games don't even give you an accurate sense of speed.
And if you're going to mis-time shifts, drive slower until you can nail those shifts every time. Saying "oh I can't manage it with a stick" is a cop out excuse. Seems like people just want the car to be easier to drive while they show off how fast they are, instead of improving their skills along with their speed.
I think there's a limit to most people's skills. Most people can't drive a race car, even if they practice and train. It's just above their potential. The GT3 gets closer to race cars with every new generation, so I'm not surprised that it's using a PDK to make it accessible to a few more drivers. After all, Porsche is trying to sell cars, not save the manuals.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 08:58:03 AM
Serious LOL at how easy you think it is to drive one of these all out properly.
And yes, they replaced the driving skill in GT3 Cup cars too by having sequential manuals in them. My mother could keep up with those guys now!
All I'm saying is, if your solution is to drive slower and learn until you can drive do all these things perfectly full out, no one would come close to touching the performance potential of these cars. Might as well just get a base 911.
Why aren't you guys advocating bringing back manual choke operation? Hand cranked engines?
Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.
Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.
And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.
Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.
I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.
Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 07:38:46 AM
I disagree.
Maybe it's a stupid metric, but I've got a racing seat and 6-speed manual + clutch setup for Gran Turismo. Anything pushing 350 or 400+ hp becomes almost unmanageable with a stick. You're diving from apex to apex so quick, trying to focus on heel toeing and being in the right gear is near impossible. You've got 7 gears to choose from, each of which you're in for a matter of seconds at most before you upshift or downshifts.
It's like hurtling towards the sun, and seconds before your impending death, you have to tie your shoes before hitting the brakes. It's nuts.
I think driving a BRZ has fucked with you. I've driven a new Mustang GT (420 hp) pretty quickly on a backroad and a manual is far from unmanageable. I couldn't imagine driving a GT-R on a track without flappy paddles though.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 13, 2013, 09:59:51 AM
I think driving a BRZ has fucked with you. I've driven a new Mustang GT (420 hp) pretty quickly on a backroad and a manual is far from unmanageable. I couldn't imagine driving a GT-R on a track without flappy paddles though.
I think his point is valid, but his numbers are a little low since he's basing it off a video game. I'd say 500 hp is the cutoff where it starts to get more tricky and screw ups become more dangerous.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 09:49:14 AM
Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.
Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.
And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.
Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.
I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.
Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?
Quote from: GoCougs on June 13, 2013, 09:57:48 AM
Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.
FAIL.
Quote from: hotrodalex on June 13, 2013, 10:06:09 AM
I think his point is valid, but his numbers are a little low since he's basing it off a video game. I'd say 500 hp is the cutoff where it starts to get more tricky and screw ups become more dangerous.
Thanks for confirming exactly what I posted. :ohyeah:
It is physically impossible for a person to manually shift as quickly as the current crop of SMG can shift. Getting a manual transmission is simply guaranteeing less performance.
For myself, I chose to buy a manual transmission car because I enjoy shifting it myself and it is 100% for commuting. If I had any intention to track a car I would have gotten the DSG. Even as it is, there are occasional times where I would like to have DSG. I have been driving manual transmission for along time but I am not a professional and never will be so I do miss time shifts here and there when I am really trying to take off. Its always just for fun so it doesn't hurt anything, but it is a reminder that DSG is superior if your goal is to have a car with maximum performance, which I gather is the entire point of purchasing a GT3 instead of a Carrera (2 or otherwise).
If I was buying a Porsche tomorrow I would almost certainly go with the normal, plebian Carrera and get a manual transmission.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 13, 2013, 10:08:05 AM
Thanks for confirming exactly what I posted. :ohyeah:
:ohyeah:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 13, 2013, 10:09:17 AM
If I was buying a Porsche tomorrow I would almost certainly go with the normal, plebian Carrera and get a manual transmission.
Same here.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 13, 2013, 09:57:48 AM
Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.
The significantly more powerful 911 Turbo has had 2 boxes for years, with a more compact + weird engine arrangement than this. Not sure where you are coming from with this.
Quote from: hotrodalex on June 13, 2013, 10:06:09 AM
Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?
Someone who enjoys building their driving skills :huh: Its not like the last GT3 was completely undrivable w/o racing experience.
Plus there are cars about as fast and totally analog that people track. The old GT3 is not far off from this at all from a raw numbers standpoint and people managed it fine.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 08:32:10 AM
That the majority of exotic car owners regularly track their cars? Yeah.
The majority of exotic/sports cars buyers also don't buy manuals, and this was true even 10+ years ago when the alternative was a traditional slushy.
Further, the 991 is available in numerous variations, of which the GT3 is the more track focused. So you're saying they should tailor the track focused offering to buyers who won't track, when there are already multiple models better suited to those buyers and notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of them wouldn't buy a manual anyway? Brilliant.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 09:49:14 AM
Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.
Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.
And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.
Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.
I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.
You're contradicting yourself all over the place.
You keep calling it a crutch and saying people should learn to drive better, yet my understanding is the PDK will turn out better lap times even with the same (skilled) driver. So if a professional race driver can turn a better lap with the PDK, is he using it as a crutch too? Shouldn't he just "learn to drive better" until he can turn equal times in both?
Guys, the Carrera, Carerra S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4s, and the vert versions of all of those, are available with a manual. That's 8 different flavours of 991. If maximizing performance isn't what you're after, it's not like there's a lack of choices.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 10:18:03 AM
The significantly more powerful 911 Turbo has had 2 boxes for years, with a more compact + weird engine arrangement than this. Not sure where you are coming from with this.
Someone who enjoys building their driving skills :huh: Its not like the last GT3 was completely undrivable w/o racing experience.
Plus there are cars about as fast and totally analog that people track. The old GT3 is not far off from this at all from a raw numbers standpoint and people managed it fine.
My argument is that if your goal is building your driving skill, you're limiting yourself by getting the traditional manual. It's a crutch that will always net a worse result in a car like this, no matter how much you practice? Where's the argument against ABS? You should just work harder until you can modulate your brakes right at lock up.
My limited track experience with both a traditional manual and DSG had me greatly preferring the DSG for track work. There's simply so much to focus on in terms of hitting the right line and getting the most out of the car. Downshifting while trying to not upset the balance approaching a corner is tough. It's exponentially harder in a car as fast as one of these. The DSG let me push harder, further, and gave me better control through the entire process. I've been driving manuals for 10 years now. It doesn't matter how much I practice, the DSG will always give me better control and ability.
For a daily driver with a modest amount of power? Give me the traditional manual. For something with bonkers performance or on a track? Give me a DSG.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 13, 2013, 10:09:17 AM
It is physically impossible for a person to manually shift as quickly as the current crop of SMG can shift. Getting a manual transmission is simply guaranteeing less performance.
True, but with that logic, you can also get rid of the steering wheel. BMW, a few years ago, created a robot 3 Series that had the optimal way around the "ring" programmed into it. It would out drive all but the best drivers..
Quote from: hotrodalex on June 13, 2013, 10:06:09 AM
Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?
For me, driving is about me and the machine, not the machine and the machine's software. If I give up performance to get the experience I enjoy, then so be it. Driving isn't about lap times to me and it never will be.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 13, 2013, 10:26:15 AM
The majority of exotic/sports cars buyers also don't buy manuals, and this was true even 10+ years ago when the alternative was a traditional slushy.
Further, the 991 is available in numerous variations, of which the GT3 is the more track focused. So you're saying they should tailor the track focused offering to buyers who won't track, when there are already multiple models better suited to those buyers and notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of them wouldn't buy a manual anyway? Brilliant.
:facepalm:
Learn to fucking read. I didn't say that at all. Not once. Read and think before you react. You can sound out the words if any of them are particularly difficult, no one will judge you. I've already stated several times that I don't care that this is PDK only and that I understand why they did it and simply that I would not buy one had I the means. Nothing more than that.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 10:43:39 AM
For me, driving is about me and the machine, not the machine and the machine's software.
Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing. Hell, even electric steering! The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience. It's a HUGE combination of software already. You're a driving hypocrisy!
What if you buy the car and never really master it the way you want to? What if you can't even reach 8/10ths of the performance because the transmission is holding you back? Is it $150k down the drain?
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 10:43:39 AM
If I give up performance to get the experience I enjoy, then so be it. Driving isn't about lap times to me and it never will be.
Right, that's why they have the Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4 ...
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 10:47:29 AM
:facepalm:
Learn to fucking read. I didn't say that at all. Not once. Read and think before you react. You can sound out the words if any of them are particularly difficult, no one will judge you. I've already stated several times that I don't care that this is PDK only and that I understand why they did it and simply that I would not buy one had I the means. Nothing more than that.
I did read and that is what you said. You appealed to false logic based on what most people do. Also if you don't care why do you get so bent out of shape about it?
I can see where people are coming from wrt track times and all that. I guess my only hope is that the GT2/RS will come with a stick. Doesn't make sense to offer that with a pdk.
Quote from: hotrodalex on June 13, 2013, 10:50:46 AM
What if you buy the car and never really master it the way you want to? What if you can't even reach 8/10ths of the performance because the transmission is holding you back? Is it $150k down the drain?
I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 10:49:27 AM
Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing. Hell, even electric steering! The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience. It's a HUGE combination of software already. You're a driving hypocrisy!
But those things aren't apparent. That's the point. The technology can be there, that's fine. If the car were less engaging to drive because of those things, I'd agree with you. But it's simply not. The tech is in the background. When you drive the car, it feels like an old school sports car, not an iPod.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 13, 2013, 10:55:18 AM
I did read and that is what you said. You appealed to false logic based on what most people do. Also if you don't care why do you get so bent out of shape about it?
Please cite, because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I've only commented on my own likes and dislikes, with a small aside on the reasons that people buy these cars, which, of course, doesn't bother me.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.
This is an interesting argument. I disagree, actually, but it's cool to think about.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.
And I continue not to care about lap times. See how this works? We go round and round.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 11:03:35 AM
And I continue not to care about lap times. See how this works? We go round and round.
Then why care so much about the pdk? I think you and I are arguing different points about the same matter.
Quote from: thecarnut on June 13, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
This is an interesting argument. I disagree, actually, but it's cool to think about.
In something like a miata, I think most of us would be pretty similar with either. Something like a C2S would be tough. A GT3 is like drinking from a fire hydrant.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 11:02:38 AM
Please cite, because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I've only commented on my own likes and dislikes, with a small aside on the reasons that people buy these cars, which, of course, doesn't bother me.
Re-read the thread and try putting 2+2 together for once. You said it was regrettable, implied enthusiasts wouldn't buy these (so people who don't track are more of enthusiasts than people who do?), and replied to a post about the merits on a track with (I paraphrase) "that's an illusion ... Nobody tracks anyway". They already have 8+ models for those people what more do you want, other than to whine?
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 11:00:16 AM
But those things aren't apparent. That's the point. The technology can be there, that's fine. If the car were less engaging to drive because of those things, I'd agree with you. But it's simply not. The tech is in the background. When you drive the car, it feels like an old school sports car, not an iPod.
Everything but vanos, fuel, and spark are pretty transparent to me.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 11:09:31 AM
In something like a miata, I think most of us would be pretty similar with either. Something like a C2S would be tough. A GT3 is like drinking from a fire hydrant.
True, I've never actually driven something that fast very hard before.
Quote from: thecarnut on June 13, 2013, 11:11:59 AM
True, I've never actually driven something that fast very hard before.
My two cars on the ring were a Scirocco with DSG and a Swift Sport with a 5-speed. Even though the Scirocco had much higher limits, I was definitely able to drive right up to the limit (and past :lol:) much easier.
Quote from: thecarnut on June 13, 2013, 11:07:10 AM
Then why care so much about the pdk? I think you and I are arguing different points about the same matter.
I don't care about the PDK. All I said is that I wouldn't buy a GT3 with a PDK. :huh:
Quote from: Lebowski on June 13, 2013, 11:10:01 AM
Re-read the thread and try putting 2+2 together for once. You said it was regrettable, implied enthusiasts wouldn't buy these (so people who don't track are more of enthusiasts than people who do?), and replied to a post about the merits on a track with (I paraphrase) "that's an illusion ... Nobody tracks anyway". They already have 8+ models for those people what more do you want, other than to whine?
You tell me that I need to re-read my own post because you can interpret it better than I can? :rolleyes: You've found a special kind of douchebaggery, Adam. I never once said that Porsche should sell this with a manual, or that Porsche didn't offer cars for people who want manuals, nor did I ever say that a dual clutch automatic isn't advantageous on a track. How about you dial down your douchiness and just read what's written?
Quote from: Lebowski on June 13, 2013, 10:28:54 AM
You're contradicting yourself all over the place.
You keep calling it a crutch and saying people should learn to drive better, yet my understanding is the PDK will turn out better lap times even with the same (skilled) driver. So if a professional race driver can turn a better lap with the PDK, is he using it as a crutch too? Shouldn't he just "learn to drive better" until he can turn equal times in both?
Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol). Point though is just like you said, a driver w/the same skill will turn faster lap times in a faster car. But if the end goal is to have faster lap times the most fundamental aspect is driving skill, which cars like this are using technology to replace rather than augment.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 13, 2013, 10:28:54 AMGuys, the Carrera, Carerra S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4s, and the vert versions of all of those, are available with a manual. That's 8 different flavours of 991. If maximizing performance isn't what you're after, it's not like there's a lack of choices.
I think everyone gets this. This discussion is just more an academic one about the purpose of drivers aid in the place of a street car for someone w/basically little to no driving skills. I just disagree w/the notion that a 450HP track focused Porsche should be "easy" to drive, but I'm not suggesting Porsche or anyone has to do what I say.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 10:49:27 AM
Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing. Hell, even electric steering! The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience. It's a HUGE combination of software already. You're a driving hypocrisy!
VANOS, EFI, spark timing have nothing to do w/driving skill. And the rest of those technologies are totally appropriate for a street car :huh: I would hope one wouldn't be using public roads as their training grounds for at the limit driving skills. I have had cars w/o power steering on the street. It fucking SUCKED!!! Besides, it might just be an electrical pump pressurizing a conventional rack. Lot of great drivers cars had this setup (S2000, MR2).
If anything, the fact that the GT3 is still a street car is prob the best argument for it having an auto box. But even still...
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.
I wish we could test out this theory. I think it would depend a lot on the track, but overall I disagree. Both cars are in the realm of performance that we'd all prob be scared shitless approaching their limits, so it would pretty much be a toss up. In any case I would still want a manual box even at the track. If I'm not racing for money lap times don't matter.
Just checked out the video,
Beautiful car
amazing roads
my life sucks. :banghead:
Addressing the manual transmission issue, I agree with chris at the end of the video. The philosophy and the facts are very different, this is the last car I expected to go the technical route based on it's PHILOSOPHY. The facts however are very different and this is ultimately what the market wants. For those of us who would rather embrace the philosophy(at the penalty of a few seconds on a race track) we just have to accept it or move on.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
You tell me that I need to re-read my own post because you can interpret it better than I can? :rolleyes: You've found a special kind of douchebaggery, Adam. I never once said that Porsche should sell this with a manual, or that Porsche didn't offer cars for people who want manuals, nor did I ever say that a dual clutch automatic isn't advantageous on a track. How about you dial down your douchiness and just read what's written?
No, you said what you said, and followed up with "well I don't care anyway". Ok.
Now you keep saying "all I said was I wouldn't buy one". No, that's not all you said. Your # of posts and words in this thread would be about 1/10 and 1/100 what they are if that were the case.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 11:22:49 AM
Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol). Point though is just like you said, a driver w/the same skill will turn faster lap times in a faster car. But if the end goal is to have faster lap times the most fundamental aspect is driving skill, which cars like this are using technology to replace rather than augment.
There's a concept called "all else equal".
Yes driver skill is an important factor, no one is denying that. You can drive a PDK and still work on your driving skills, they are not mutually exclusive.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 11:22:49 AM
Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol).
What? The GT500 is the fastest Mustang around a track. :nutty:
Raza can't accept this car. It'd crush his pseudo automotive hipster persona. He's too cool to deal with technology. He's a disgruntled old man that wants computers eliminated from his vehicle...but only when it's convenient to him :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 13, 2013, 11:22:49 AM
You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol).
:lol: :golfclap:
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 11:48:44 AM
Raza can't accept this car. It'd crush his pseudo automotive hipster persona. He's too cool to deal with technology. He's a disgruntled old man that wants computers eliminated from his vehicle...but only when it's convenient to him :lol:
I fully accept this car. I just don't want it. :huh:
Quote from: MrH on June 12, 2013, 09:09:32 PM
Just look at how fast that thing revs. I can't imagine trying to keep up with that beastly engine with a conventional manual.
When you take your foot off the pedal, it stops gaining revs so fast
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 11:52:17 AM
I fully accept this car. I just don't want it. :huh:
I share that feeling, It's an amazing car no doubt.
So can anybody make a reasonable argument for the engine still being behind the rear axle?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 13, 2013, 12:06:13 PM
So can anybody make a reasonable argument for the engine still being behind the rear axle?
It's shy :huh:
This motor + cayman + 6 speed manual, sounds like a blast.
I'm with Raza. I absolutely loved driving the GT-R, but I want a manual since it would never see a track under my ownership.
So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does? The steering? braking? Acceleration? The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex. For getting the braking zone just right. For easing onto the gas just right. What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics? When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?
I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also. Just food for thought.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 13, 2013, 12:39:34 PM
So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does? The steering? braking? Acceleration? The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex. For getting the braking zone just right. For easing onto the gas just right. What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics? When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?
I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also. Just food for thought.
If I was tracking my car on a regular basis, then I would be going purely for lap times. Flappy paddles are still pretty fucking fun on a track, but (especially in a car as fast as the GT-R) I didn't even want to take my hands of the wheel. On the street I don't give a shit which is faster, just which is more engaging. Manual wins on the street for me.
I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 13, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I share that feeling, It's an amazing car no doubt.
It is an amazing technical masterpiece, I agree.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on June 13, 2013, 12:39:34 PM
So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does? The steering? braking? Acceleration? The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex. For getting the braking zone just right. For easing onto the gas just right. What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics? When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?
I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also. Just food for thought.
I'd equate this to track and field:
We can drive 400 m around a track faster in a car than we can run it, but that would completely change the sport. Same with car racing. Autonomous cars won't remove humans from racing. It's no longer racing then.
Similarly, track athletes shouldn't be hampered by having to run barefoot. Track cars shouldn't be hampered with traditional manuals. I agree, hitting a perfect downshift is rewarding. But in vehicles this fast, by having a traditional manual, you're degrading the rest of the experience. Hitting that apex, brake point, feathering the throttle just right, etc, is all being limited by the fact the transmission can't keep up with the rest of the car.
In track and field, there's beauty and achievement in getting off the line with perfect form (arm movement, knees, everything). Stick a barefoot guy out there without starting blocks, and it hampers everything else to the point that you don't see what the guy is really capable of. Same story here.
I can't access YouTube right now, but someone link the autocar F12 review. Watch that guy tackle those roads, and just try and imagine doing that with a 6-speed and clutch. You wouldn't be able to. You wouldn't even be able to come close to witnessing what that vehicle is capable of.
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 12:48:07 PM
I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.
Or like driving a formula one car with the engine sticking out the back.
Oh, wait.
Look, I get the argument, flappy paddles are faster. So are mid engined cars, and this has been an acknowledged fact for decades. Yet still the 911 goes on, with its motorus operandus where it's gluteus maximus belongs, and were supposed to believe Porsche is doing this all just to make it faster?
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 12:48:07 PM
I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.
Wow, I made almost the same analogy without even seeing your post.
I wish the GT3 had a manual option, seeing as if I owned one, it would probably never see a track. I'd get more enjoyment out of it on a day-to-day basis. That said, it isn't hard to see why it's PDK-only.
Realistically, in a car like this, lack of a manual option would not be a dealbreaker for me.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 13, 2013, 12:53:05 PM
Or like driving a formula one car with the engine sticking out the back.
Oh, wait.
Look, I get the argument, flappy paddles are faster. So are mid engined cars, and this has been an acknowledged fact for decades. Yet still the 911 goes on, with its motorus operandus where it's gluteus maximus belongs, and were supposed to believe Porsche is doing this all just to make it faster?
There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined. To say one is definitively better is a stretch. Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.
There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control. Only downside is slightly more weight. Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me. You still have direct control over what gear you're using. I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG.
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 13, 2013, 12:58:20 PM
I wish the GT3 had a manual option, seeing as if I owned one, it would probably never see a track. I'd get more enjoyment out of it on a day-to-day basis. That said, it isn't hard to see why it's PDK-only.
Realistically, in a car like this, lack of a manual option would not be a dealbreaker for me.
If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to
not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:00:37 PM
There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined. To say one is definitively better is a stretch. Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.
There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control. Only downside is slightly more weight. Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me. You still have direct control over what gear you're using. I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG.
So how many race cars not based on 911s are rear engine then? Why?
The only reason the 911 Is is because of a historical accident; that its forbears were based upon a stripped down version of a nazi era commuter car.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 13, 2013, 01:05:25 PM
So how many race cars not based on 911s are rear engine then? Why?
The only reason the 911 Is is because of a historical accident; that its forbears were based upon a stripped down version of a nazi era commuter car.
Why does it dominate so much on the track then? Sounds like they should be an abject failure on the track then...
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 01:04:48 PM
If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.
Exactly!
You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?
You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track. You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
Why does it dominate so much on the track then? Sounds like they should be an abject failure on the track then...
Exactly!
It does well in production classes where rules have been made trying to create equality between cars. In open design classes, there are no rear engine cars.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 13, 2013, 01:15:21 PM
It does well in production classes where rules have been made trying to create equality between cars. In open design classes, there are no rear engine cars.
You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:00:37 PM
There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control.
More control with a DSG? I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that. There's less control. You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears.
Quote from: r0tor on June 13, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?
You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track. You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.
I believe BTCC still has choice between a manual and a dual clutch box (with a weight penalty). It might have changed, but it was that way a few years ago.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
More control with a DSG? I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that. There's less control. You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears.
When I was hard on the brakes in the GT-R and shifting down, I gave three rapid pulls on the downshift paddle, and it dropped from 5th to 2nd in the blink of an eye. Whether it actually skipped them or not, I don't know, but it got to 2nd way faster than I ever could have by skipping gears. I imagine it would be the same going up. But, like I said, I would only have a DSG on a car I tracked a lot.
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 01:04:48 PM
If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.
This +1
Going back to my previous post this is why I said if I was buying a 911, it would be the Carrera (probably not even bothering with the "S"). IF I was going to get a 911 GT3 it would be to drive it on the track, otherwise the car itself is a waste of money (IMHO). So in a theoretical world where I (1) Have enough money to buy this type of Car and (2) Have a desire to take it to the track I would go with the PDK transmission anyway.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...
Porsche buyers are loyal, and most of them don't care that its not the fastest.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...
Theres more to the 911's success than its engine layout ;)
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:00:37 PM
There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined. To say one is definitively better is a stretch. Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.
There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control. Only downside is slightly more weight. Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me. You still have direct control over what gear you're using. I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG.
I dont know dude. Theres a reason Porsche keeps saddlebagging the Cayman/Boxster, as well as why they stretched the 911's wheelbase and moved the engine a little more forward. Not to mention if it worked there would be more RR race cars. 911 is pretty much the exception to the rule
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 12:48:07 PM
I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.
Im imagining driving this car as is being like an average Joe playing a pick up game in $300 Lebron X's :lol:
Quote from: r0tor on June 13, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?
You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track. You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.
I would bet the PDK Turbo would be much faster around a track in the hands of an avg Joe. Point n shoot.
And for the $$$ a brand new GT3 is a pretty bad value proposition for going around a track fast, even for a brand new car. GT-R, Viper, ZR1 would be at least as fast for 30-40K less. You buy a GT3 because you want a track focused 911. The 911 "Type-R".
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
More control with a DSG? I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that. There's less control. You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears.
You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.
I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance. You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
More control with a DSG? I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that. There's less control. You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears.
Yes, you can jump gears, and there's no need to modulate a clutch other than to change gears, which the dsg eliminates.
Quote from: Vinsanity on June 13, 2013, 01:04:48 PM
If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.
Fair point. I suppose I couldn't say unless I had the money to buy a GT3/track it.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on June 13, 2013, 11:34:37 AM
Addressing the manual transmission issue, I agree with chris at the end of the video. The philosophy and the facts are very different, this is the last car I expected to go the technical route based on it's PHILOSOPHY. The facts however are very different and this is ultimately what the market wants. For those of us who would rather embrace the philosophy(at the penalty of a few seconds on a race track) we just have to accept it or move on.
^
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:43:21 PM
You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.
I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance. You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.
Are you only talking about track driving or overall?
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 13, 2013, 01:56:47 PM
Fair point. I suppose I couldn't say unless I had the money to buy a GT3/track it.
I'd rather track a 996 GT3 RS.
*ducksbecauseit'snotthefastestcareverwithflappypaddleshiftersandcomputercontrolledsuspensionandautopilotanditonlyhasoneshiftprogram*
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 02:51:24 PM
Are you only talking about track driving or overall?
...yes :praise:
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 03:02:59 PM
...yes :praise:
You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?
You skip shifts in a manual because your tired of rowing gears... Not applicable for a dsg
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 03:16:07 PM
You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?
I personally still don't trust them in the reliability department. Consumer stuff has come a long way since the BMW SMG days, they may be faster and smoother but I just know they will cost me in the long run.
Quote from: Raza on June 13, 2013, 03:16:07 PM
You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?
Are you really arguing that you think you can shift faster than a DSG? In any setting? :nutty:
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 13, 2013, 04:50:07 PM
Are you really arguing that you think you can shift faster than a DSG? In any setting? :nutty:
DSGs usually suck in slow city driving unless you leave them in auto.
Quote from: MrH on June 13, 2013, 01:43:21 PM
You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.
I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance. You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.
On the flip side, when you're trying to quickly drop from 5th to 2nd for a tight corner, you need to keep count of how many times you pulled the paddle. I periodically ran into this when I was racing motocross as a kid. Did I hit the shifter 3 times or, in the heat of battle, did I accidentally hit it 4? I guess PDK, with its automated nannies, will prevent you from doing anything that would cause the rear wheels to lock or the engine to over-rev, but it's entirely possible to end up in a lower gear than you intended.
I will not fault Porsche for going sequential/PDK gearbox in their "track" capable street car, since that really is the transmission you want when you want to extract the most from a car. I do kind of feel like the SMG/DSG gearbox is becoming a marketing department's wet dream. "We're not selling out by offering an automatic gearbox to try to lure the less hardcore drivers, we're offering the transmission that offers the best possible performance to better cater to performance enthusiasts!". They could have preserved more of the GT3's hardcore image by disabling the transmission's automatic mode, making the driver still summon every shift. But there's that pesky purist's philosophy getting in the way of practical common sense.
(http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310650820313.jpg)
Quote from: r0tor on June 13, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
You skip shifts in a manual because your tired of rowing gears... Not applicable for a dsg
I skip second gear a lot simply because its a smoother transition going from 1-3. Though honestly If I am on a downhill slope or even a slight roll I will instead skip 1st gear and just start on 2nd gear.
When merging on the highway I often skip 5th gear simply because its not needed. 4th gear gets me to ~75 MPH very easily, at which point I go right to 6th simply because going to 5 "just because its next" doesn't make sense.
Note that all of the above situations are only applicable to casual driving, not trying to go fast.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 13, 2013, 06:51:13 PM
DSGs usually suck in slow city driving unless you leave them in auto.
Have driven an A3 with DSG and this was not the case at all. It was super smooth in all the driving situations I encountered (stop and go traffic as well as accelerating to merge on to highways). I was very impressed. I suspect if I had a DSG I would still keep it on manual operation ~95% of the time or more.
I would want to hit every gear on the track. During braking skipping a gear = missing out on engine braking
Front bumper looks like a Bentley Continental and it bothers me.
Waiting for the GT3 RS. Bring back the Clubsport
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 14, 2013, 07:24:53 AM
I would want to hit every gear on the track. During braking skipping a gear = missing out on engine braking
Front bumper looks like a Bentley Continental and it bothers me.
Waiting for the GT3 RS. Bring back the Clubsport
"Missing out on engine braking"? What are you missing out on? If you're hard on the brakes already, you're not gaining anything with engine braking.
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2013, 07:31:35 AM
"Missing out on engine braking"? What are you missing out on? If you're hard on the brakes already, you're not gaining anything with engine braking.
ya :huh:
Not to mention if you're coming down off a long straight into a tight corner you don't always have time to go through each gear(with a clutch disengage for each). I normally will do a double blip and use the gates for timing of the blip. Like in a 5-3 situation, this is faster then engaging fourth then clutching back in and going to 3.
As for the porsche, in the end I don't think the lack of a manual would keep me from owning such a amazing car. While I would prefer it and if there were other options in the price range that offered a manual I would prioritize those options. However I would not be able to over look a package that offered EVERYTHING but the ability to change my own gears, this car looks to be solidly in that category. It looks amazing, sounds fantastic, handles(based on reviews) unbelievably and so on. Ultimately a good PDK/DSG will still allow me FULL control over when and if I want to change gears.
Oh, I'd absolutely love to have this car, with this transmission. I just think some people's arguments are a little silly on both sides.
It's not a race car; it's a street car for porschefiles who want to feel like they're in a race car. There are lots of faster track cars for the same or less money, and that's not even getting into real race cars; which is what I'd be looking at if I was spending this kind of money on a track toy.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 14, 2013, 08:49:37 AM
There are lots of faster track cars for the same or less money
No one has ever made the argument that people buy 911s to save money.
Quote from: CALL_911 on June 13, 2013, 04:50:07 PM
Are you really arguing that you think you can shift faster than a DSG? In any setting? :nutty:
No, that's not what I'm arguing. At all.
Quote from: MX793 on June 13, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
I will not fault Porsche for going sequential/PDK gearbox in their "track" capable street car, since that really is the transmission you want when you want to extract the most from a car. I do kind of feel like the SMG/DSG gearbox is becoming a marketing department's wet dream. "We're not selling out by offering an automatic gearbox to try to lure the less hardcore drivers, we're offering the transmission that offers the best possible performance to better cater to performance enthusiasts!". They could have preserved more of the GT3's hardcore image by disabling the transmission's automatic mode, making the driver still summon every shift. But there's that pesky purist's philosophy getting in the way of practical common sense.
This is what I've been trying to say about ACTs all along! Thanks for putting it in a way that doesn't get anyone's jimmies all rustled.
So you want them to lose sales, disable the auto mode, and take away something through software just to prove a point and "preserve the image"? Wow...
Disabling the option to use an auto mode would be retarded.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 14, 2013, 08:52:16 AM
No one has ever made the argument that people buy 911s to save money.
No, they buy them because they want them, and largely because they love Porsches. But the arguments for the DSG gearbox are all "because racecar," when the glaring, obvious fact that nobody designs race cars around a rear engine chassis is completely ignored.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 14, 2013, 09:11:45 AM
Disabling the option to use an auto mode would be retarded.
Agreed.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 14, 2013, 09:25:28 AM
No, they buy them because they want them, and largely because they love Porsches. But the arguments for the DSG gearbox are all "because racecar," when the glaring, obvious fact that nobody designs race cars around a rear engine chassis is completely ignored.
I don't think anyone has called it a race car, however it is clearly the most track focused of the 12 flavours of 991 currently available/unveiled. It makes sense it would be configured the way it is.
Those knocking it using the argument "well I wouldn't buy it" ... uh, ok, in 99% of cases you'd be better served by a different 991, like a C2S, anyway. I realize most buyers don't track their cars (I don't either), but if that's the case why would you get the GT3?
I think I've said before, I'm way more disappointed about the lack of manual in the Turbo than I am the GT3, and even then it wouldn't sway my decision were I buying one.
Quote from: Lebowski on June 14, 2013, 09:32:01 AM
I don't think anyone has called it a race car, however it is clearly the most track focused of the 12 flavours of 991 currently available/unveiled. It makes sense it would be configured the way it is.
Those knocking it using the argument "well I wouldn't buy it" ... uh, ok, in 99% of cases you'd be better served by a different 991, like a C2S, anyway.
If I wanted to go racing in a production 911, this is what I would get.
If I just wanted to go racing however...
Although I'd probably kill myself in it, if I were to spend this level of coin on a Porsche just for track use, I'd be looking at something more like a '73 RS.
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2013, 09:06:41 AM
So you want them to lose sales, disable the auto mode, and take away something through software just to prove a point and "preserve the image"? Wow...
No. Where did I say that? Where did anyone say that?
Quote from: MrH on June 14, 2013, 09:06:41 AM
So you want them to lose sales, disable the auto mode, and take away something through software just to prove a point and "preserve the image"? Wow...
No, I said it probably would preserve some of the hardcore image. I also said it was impractical and nonsensical.
It would make much more sense of them to disable it and then charge extra to re-enable it as an option :devil:
You guys are insane.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 14, 2013, 07:24:53 AM
I would want to hit every gear on the track. During braking skipping a gear = missing out on engine braking
You don't engine brake on the track. If you are engine braking, then you're not going fast enough. Period. End of story.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 14, 2013, 11:07:58 AM
You don't engine brake on the track. If you are engine braking, then you're not going fast enough. Period. End of story.
Hmm, but engine braking will engage the diffferential locks (if so equipped) and that might help with traction even under brakeing.
Quote from: Galaxy on June 14, 2013, 12:59:51 PM
Hmm, but engine braking will engage the diffferential locks (if so equipped) and that might help with traction even under brakeing.
Driven properly on a track, a car will never engine brake.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 14, 2013, 01:06:02 PM
Driven properly on a track, a car will never engine brake.
Not sure about that. Getting off the throttle abruptly should create at least some degree of a vacuum in the engine.
Quote from: Galaxy on June 14, 2013, 01:34:03 PM
Not sure about that. Getting off the throttle abruptly should create at least some degree of a vacuum in the engine.
You are on the gas or on the brakes, and when you are on the brakes, you're on them hard.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 14, 2013, 01:39:42 PM
You are on the gas or on the brakes, and when you are on the brakes, you're on them hard.
Yes, but there is still some engine braking going on - unless you push in the clutch - which might be really helpfull with the diffs.
Quote from: Galaxy on June 14, 2013, 12:59:51 PM
Hmm, but engine braking will engage the diffferential locks (if so equipped) and that might help with traction even under brakeing.
The brakes are generating so much more force than the engine braking effect, and associated differential effects, that it will be in the noise. The brakes alone on practically any modern car are sufficient to lock up the wheels, and once you've reached the threshold of wheel lock, no additional braking force, be it engine braking or more from the regular brakes, is going to help you stop any faster.
Also, the tendency for limited slip differentials to inhibit turn-in will be present regardless of whether the vehicle is under engine braking or if the clutch is pushed in (or the transmission in neutral). Limited slips resist any effort for the wheel on the left to spin at a different speed from the wheel on the right.
Quote from: Galaxy on June 14, 2013, 12:59:51 PM
Hmm, but engine braking will engage the diffferential locks (if so equipped) and that might help with traction even under brakeing.
Diff locks are normally 2-way anyway, meaning that they engage when power is applied and disengaged when coasting.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 14, 2013, 01:39:42 PM
You are on the gas or on the brakes, and when you are on the brakes, you're on them hard.
No thats not true. Its true you dont gain anything from engine braking during hard braking but there is plenty of transition between the gas and brake through turns. You look at brake/throttle feeds on any race, it's always some fraction of brake or throttle mid turn, sometimes with none of either.