Car Chat

Started by FoMoJo, August 26, 2014, 05:59:31 AM

Soup DeVille

I too wonder about the long term effects of start/stop are; but thus far the various systems seem to be pretty reliable.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 22, 2021, 09:19:55 AM
I'm pretty sure the starter now stays engaged with the flywheel, and there is a standard clutch arrangement rather than the solenoid/bendix arrangement of older starters.
That would make sense, I think.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Soup DeVille on January 22, 2021, 09:21:43 AM
I too wonder about the long term effects of start/stop are; but thus far the various systems seem to be pretty reliable.

There have been lots of cars equipped with start/stop that now have high mileage, I assume? I haven't heard of any reliability issues related to it.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 09:21:32 AM
I was more concerned about the temperature rising than dropping.

The scenario is no different than when you drive for 30 minutes or more and then park your car.

Temperatures can't rise if no heat is being generated.  An engine that isn't turning or burning fuel isn't generating heat.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 09:27:47 AM
The scenario is no different than when you drive for 30 minutes or more and then park your car.

Temperatures can't rise if no heat is being generated.  An engine that isn't turning or burning fuel isn't generating heat.
When the coolant stops circulating it heats up momentarily within the engine.  Don't think that has changed.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 09:32:04 AM
When the coolant stops circulating it heats up momentarily within the engine.  Don't think that has changed.

Some parts within the engine may see a rise as heat from the hottest parts conducts out after the engine shuts off. The hottest spots, like the walls of the cylinders or the exhaust, will not rise once turning and burning stops.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

CaminoRacer

My El Camino's temp gauge does rise after being turned off, due to the lack of coolant circulation. But it'll go from 180 to like 190. Nothing dangerous. And since that's measuring coolant temp, it just means the heat is still being transferred from the cylinder heads to the coolant.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MX793

Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 22, 2021, 09:41:13 AM
My El Camino's temp gauge does rise after being turned off, due to the lack of coolant circulation. But it'll go from 180 to like 190. Nothing dangerous. And since that's measuring coolant temp, it just means the heat is still being transferred from the cylinder heads to the coolant.

Also depends where the temperature sensor is.  If it's in the coolant jackets in the head, yes, I expect you'll see some rise.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

So conclusion is that stop/start really doesn't impact engine/component life?

I would always, upon starting my car, push the button that deactivates the stop/start.  At one point, after failing to deactivate the stop/start, noticed that stop/start no longer worked.  Don't know if something broke or, after being deactivated a few hundred times, it simply accepted it as the default.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

shp4man

Auto start/stop is heavily dependent on the cars ECU, it checks for battery health, starter health, HVAC use, temperature, all kinds of other shit.
That said, it annoys me, too. I suppose it's because sitting at a light with a dead engine is disturbing.

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 09:52:17 AM
So conclusion is that stop/start really doesn't impact engine/component life?

I would always, upon starting my car, push the button that deactivates the stop/start.  At one point, after failing to deactivate the stop/start, noticed that stop/start no longer worked.  Don't know if something broke or, after being deactivated a few hundred times, it simply accepted it as the default.

So long as the parts that see increased (starter motor, really) are upgraded in line with the increased duty cycle, I would expect a car with start/stop to last effectively as long as one without.

Start/stop systems do have some logic circuits.  They won't shut the car off if you are trying to cool the interior and AirCon demand is high.  Fairly certain the system also auto-disables when the engine is truly still very cold or if it detects the battery voltage below a certain level.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

CaminoRacer

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 10:01:10 AM
So long as the parts that see increased (starter motor, really) are upgraded in line with the increased duty cycle, I would expect a car with start/stop to last effectively as long as one without.

Start/stop systems do have some logic circuits.  They won't shut the car off if you are trying to cool the interior and AirCon demand is high.  Fairly certain the system also auto-disables when the engine is truly still very cold or if it detects the battery voltage below a certain level.

With my driving habits, I can rarely get my mom's Cruze to shut off. Maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

MX793

Quote from: shp4man on January 22, 2021, 10:00:18 AM
That said, it annoys me, too. I suppose it's because sitting at a light with a dead engine is disturbing.

That's really my issue.  Growing up with vehicles that didn't have it, jumping into a rental and having the engine shut off when the car comes to a stop is disconcerting.  Past experience makes me think "uh oh, engine stalled" and I start looking for warning lights or signs of trouble.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 09:52:17 AM
So conclusion is that stop/start really doesn't impact engine/component life?

I would always, upon starting my car, push the button that deactivates the stop/start.  At one point, after failing to deactivate the stop/start, noticed that stop/start no longer worked.  Don't know if something broke or, after being deactivated a few hundred times, it simply accepted it as the default.

I was leery; but I've not heard of a rash of failures related to anything that could be blamed on it. At this point, if something does show up, its likely going to be no earlier than a lot of other failures.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

FoMoJo

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 10:01:10 AM
So long as the parts that see increased (starter motor, really) are upgraded in line with the increased duty cycle, I would expect a car with start/stop to last effectively as long as one without.

Start/stop systems do have some logic circuits.  They won't shut the car off if you are trying to cool the interior and AirCon demand is high.  Fairly certain the system also auto-disables when the engine is truly still very cold or if it detects the battery voltage below a certain level.
My car is 4 years old and I'm wondering if the battery may be a factor in the stop/start no longer working.  Initially, it worked under most conditions once it reached running temperature.  Now it just doesn't work at all, which is fine by me.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

shp4man

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 10:08:10 AM
My car is 4 years old and I'm wondering if the battery may be a factor in the stop/start no longer working.  Initially, it worked under most conditions once it reached running temperature.  Now it just doesn't work at all, which is fine by me.

It's probably the battery. If it's under 80% health on a Ford, stop/start won't work.

FoMoJo

Quote from: shp4man on January 22, 2021, 10:15:08 AM
It's probably the battery. If it's under 80% health on a Ford, stop/start won't work.
Land Rover, but it's still mostly Ford.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Speed_Racer

I haven't seen it mentioned, but some start/stop systems reduce the load on the starter by also sparking the cylinder resting in the combustion stroke.

FoMoJo

Quote from: Speed_Racer on January 22, 2021, 10:21:11 AM
I haven't seen it mentioned, but some start/stop systems reduce the load on the starter by also sparking the cylinder resting in the combustion stroke.
Mazda had something like that I believe.  You'd think that they could develop it so that there would be no longer any need for a starter motor.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

CaminoRacer

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 10:25:46 AM
Mazda had something like that I believe.  You'd think that they could develop it so that there would be no longer any need for a starter motor.

I think it only works because the engine is already warm. Doesn't work with a cold engine.

Some system use the serpentine belt to re-start the engine instead of the starter.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

r0tor

The start/stop logic in my Alfa has a while host of permissives... It monitors oil temp, coolant temp, battery charge, time since last activation, loading of the hvac system, and ambient air temp before deciding to allow the system to activate.

... all that would indicate that yes additional wear is a concern but can be managed.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

RomanChariot

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 10:08:10 AM
My car is 4 years old and I'm wondering if the battery may be a factor in the stop/start no longer working.  Initially, it worked under most conditions once it reached running temperature.  Now it just doesn't work at all, which is fine by me.

If you need to replace the battery, I highly recommend watching this video. Probably the best battery replacement video I have ever seen. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-am6gBQ-E

MX793

Quote from: RomanChariot on January 22, 2021, 11:26:35 AM
If you need to replace the battery, I highly recommend watching this video. Probably the best battery replacement video I have ever seen. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-am6gBQ-E

I was expecting to see sparks or something.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

RomanChariot

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 11:33:03 AM
I was expecting to see sparks or something.

Not everyone can pry out a push rivet with a Philips screwdriver. It just proves you don't need the right tool or even need to know the name of the tool or the names of the parts of a car to be able to do car repair.

MX793

Quote from: RomanChariot on January 22, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
Not everyone can pry out a push rivet with a Philips screwdriver. It just proves you don't need the right tool or even need to know the name of the tool or the names of the parts of a car to be able to do car repair.

A claw hammer and a crescent wrench can fix most anything around the house.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

RomanChariot

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 11:41:18 AM
A claw hammer and a crescent wrench can fix most anything around the house.

Don't I know.  I was helping my brother with a furnace issue recently and I didn't have tools with me. I asked him if he had something to remove a hex head sheet metal screw and he handed me a fairly large Channellock.

MX793

Quote from: RomanChariot on January 22, 2021, 11:52:02 AM
Don't I know.  I was helping my brother with a furnace issue recently and I didn't have tools with me. I asked him if he had something to remove a hex head sheet metal screw and he handed me a fairly large Channellock.

Channel locks are a viable Crescent wrench alternative.  The crescent wrench with built-in hammer head is like the perfect multi-tool.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FoMoJo

Quote from: RomanChariot on January 22, 2021, 11:26:35 AM
If you need to replace the battery, I highly recommend watching this video. Probably the best battery replacement video I have ever seen. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-am6gBQ-E
She got it out.

How do you "unloosen" something?
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MX793

Quote from: FoMoJo on January 22, 2021, 12:19:49 PM
She got it out.

How do you "unloosen" something?

Do the opposite as when you untighten.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

RomanChariot

Quote from: MX793 on January 22, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
Channel locks are a viable Crescent wrench alternative.  The crescent wrench with built-in hammer head is like the perfect multi-tool.

You might be onto something there. There could be a patent with your name on it.