Mass Produced BMW Hydrogen Vehicles Could Be Here As Soon As 2025

[cawimmer430]

Mass Produced BMW Hydrogen Vehicles Could Be Here As Soon As 2025 With Help From Toyota

Back in 2021 at the Munich Motor Show, BMW revealed the iX5 Hydrogen, a hydrogen fuel cell-powered version of the standard X5 SUV. And while that vehicle is set to begin production this year, it will only be made in small numbers. Now, a new report from Nikkei Asia suggests that a mass-market hydrogen BMW could be here within the coming years.

Sales chief Peter Nota told Nikkei that production and sales of a BMW hydrogen fuel cell vehicle could begin as early as 2025. He also suggested that the first of these vehicles would likely be an SUV, given the segment's popularity and their belief that hydrogen technology is "particularly relevant" to that body style. Seeing as hydrogen vehicles are able to refuel just as quickly as their gas-powered counterparts, and they don't lose range with variations in temperature, we'd be inclined to agree.



Not only that, but the report also states that the vehicle will be jointly developed with the help of Toyota, a company they already have a relationship with. "We have various projects we work on with Toyota," Nota told Nikkei Asia. BMW already worked with them to create the GR Supra, which shares many components with their Z4 roadster, and its likely they're enlisting the Japanese marque's help again because of their experience developing and producing hydrogen vehicles like the Mirai. In fact, the two have created a hydrogen vehicle together in the past, a BMW 5-Series GT with a Toyota fuel cell stack, but it was just a prototype.

Nota, and by extension BMW, see hydrogen vehicles as one way to overcome some of the challenges posed with pure electric vehicles. In particular, he mentioned to Nikkei that not all charging infrastructure is created equal and that availability of materials for production is somewhat scarce. As such, they value the notion of not placing all their eggs in one basket. "We do believe in the importance of various technologies – battery electric vehicles, also hydrogen and efficient combustion engines," said Nota.


Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2022/08/mass-produced-bmw-hydrogen-vehicles-could-be-here-as-soon-as-2025-with-help-from-toyota/

[FoMoJo]

Good to have a variety of energy options.

[CaminoRacer]

If people complain about lack of EV charging stations, they're really gonna hate how few hydrogen stations there are

[r0tor]

It's hard enough to imagine enough EV infrastructure being built - then yet enough infrastructure for a 3rd energy option


...that also must be some kind of render because it isn't ugly enough to be a new BMW

[cawimmer430]

It's hard enough to imagine enough EV infrastructure being built - then yet enough infrastructure for a 3rd energy option


...that also must be some kind of render because it isn't ugly enough to be a new BMW

And this is why I think eFuels are a great alternative and currently the ONLY real alternative to keep billions of ICE cars on the road. The companies working on these fuels here are claiming that they are making rapid advances in producing more of the stuff while using less energy.

And needless to say the infrastructure for transporting liquid high-energy dense fuels already exists.


Personally I think that full EV future is the wrong way to go and no current EV on the market will satisfy my driving needs. The last few days I've had a number of projects which involved driving huge distances, working and requiring access to my car (which if an EV wouldn't be able to charge during this time) and then after a hard day's work I wanna speed home (Autobahn!!!) and not waste my time finding a slow-poke 11-22 kW public charger and wait hours for the damn battery to be charged only to see its charge drop like a rock when I speed on the Autobahn and have the A/C on...

[r0tor]

Sorry, eFuels are a complete joke.  Spend massive amounts of time and money.and energy to produce them - only to burn them in a 30% efficient ICE engine.  It's just nonsense.

[cawimmer430]

Sorry, eFuels are a complete joke.  Spend massive amounts of time and money.and energy to produce them - only to burn them in a 30% efficient ICE engine.  It's just nonsense.

Modern ICEs have gotten so efficient that this does not really matter IMO. For example here where we have the Autobahn, on a 100 km trip I will cruise around 60% of the way between 150-170 km/h with some minutes in the 200 km/h+ zone and my car will still return 7.2 or 8 L / 100 km - that's pretty darn impressive. And this with the A/C on 16 degrees C blow setting 6 out of 7. Try doing that in an EV...

[r0tor]

Modern ICEs have gotten so efficient that this does not really matter IMO. For example here where we have the Autobahn, on a 100 km trip I will cruise around 60% of the way between 150-170 km/h with some minutes in the 200 km/h+ zone and my car will still return 7.2 or 8 L / 100 km - that's pretty darn impressive. And this with the A/C on 16 degrees C blow setting 6 out of 7. Try doing that in an EV...

No car on the road has an ICE engine that breaks 30-35% efficiency.

EV's are 90% efficient.

To put things into perspective, your 8L you burn per 100km is about 90KWh of energy which is the equivalent of a battery pack in an extended range car that goes 500km with that amount of energy

[cawimmer430]

No car on the road has an ICE engine that breaks 30-35% efficiency.

EV's are 90% efficient.

I am aware of that.

But what's the problem if eFuels or Hydrogen are produced using excess "renewable" energy or nuclear power for example? Keep in mind that 3/4 of the world are poorer developing nations where for decades to come a transition to EV technology or "renewable" power won't be happening. And what about international air travel? Those aspects alone are an argument for the production of eFuels or Hydrogen.

Plus, a well-maintained ICE can last forever - literally. Would I want to buy a used EV on its 2nd or 3rd owner whose battery replacement costs more than the car is worth?

To put things into perspective, your 8L you burn per 100km is about 90KWh of energy which is the equivalent of a battery pack in an extended range car that goes 500km with that amount of energy

Theoretical 500 km that under realistic driving conditions are not achievable due to the low energy density of current batteries. Making the battery larger is a waste of resources, adds weight and would theoretically also hamper range because of that added weight.

Fuel Cell would be the ideal EV but hey, the production efficiency factor of Hydrogen is also low...

[r0tor]

Think of the logic here - you are using energy to create a fuel (which in itself has an energy loss) to burn in an ICE engine that wastes 70% of that fuel... In the end you are probably wasting 85% of the original energy input

Just take the original energy and dump it directly in an EV that will actually use 90% of it.

[cawimmer430]

Think of the logic here - you are using energy to create a fuel (which in itself has an energy loss) to burn in an ICE engine that wastes 70% of that fuel... In the end you are probably wasting 85% of the original energy input

Just take the original energy and dump it directly in an EV that will actually use 90% of it.

Like I said, if these fuels are made from so-called "renewables" or nuclear power then who cares?

EV cars come with their own set of problems in particular uncertain long-term battery durability and range and charging issues. This won't work for the masses. It's an illusion that all ICE drivers in the world can simply replace their car with an EV. And it's not wanted by governments worldwide who basically want to eradicate personal freedom of mobility through private car ownership. Look up that creep Klaus Schwab and his "Great Reset" ideas. That communist wacko scares me.

[r0tor]

EV batteries are now good for 1 million miles.  The only question about EV batteries at this point is what to do with perfectly good batteries once the car falls apart around them.

The world does not have the renewable energy needed to throw 85% of it away.  You take that 85% and turn off dirt generation and pump extra capacity into storage systems to increase reliability beyond what the grid has today.

...also the beloved nuclear generation creates nuclear waste that nobody has a solution for except storing it in hollowed out mountains and hoping nobody 1000 years from now cares.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm going to build a coal powered Jeep. The future is clean coal.

[FoMoJo]

I'm going to build a coal powered Jeep. The future is clean coal.

Why not a nuclear powered jeep?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Why not a nuclear powered jeep?

I simply can't afford a portable fusion reactor.

[cawimmer430]

EV batteries are now good for 1 million miles.  The only question about EV batteries at this point is what to do with perfectly good batteries once the car falls apart around them.

Charging cycles degrade battery performance over time. 100% charge will turn into 95% charge then 93% and a few years later 87% etc. That's still an issue.

Does the fuel tank on an ICE car shrink over the years? 

The world does not have the renewable energy needed to throw 85% of it away.  You take that 85% and turn off dirt generation and pump extra capacity into storage systems to increase reliability beyond what the grid has today.

Countries in North Africa such as Morocco receive so much solar power that they could theoretically export that power to Europe - or create products like eFuels or Hydrogen with that excess "renewable" power.

In Germany our retard politicians PAY our neighbors to accept our excess wind and solar power. Instead that excess power should be use to produce eFuels or Hydrogen. The world needs those products. Most hydrogen today is produced via gas and is thus not carbon neutral.

...also the beloved nuclear generation creates nuclear waste that nobody has a solution for except storing it in hollowed out mountains and hoping nobody 1000 years from now cares.

Solution? A modern Dual Fluid Reactor which can reuse the nuclear waste from conventional nuclear power plants for 10+ years.

[r0tor]

Charging cycles degrade battery performance over time. 100% charge will turn into 95% charge then 93% and a few years later 87% etc. That's still an issue.

Does the fuel tank on an ICE car shrink over the years? 

That is just simply not true anymore.  There are Tesla batteries out there with 500k miles that still have >90% of their capacity.

Also yes, an ICE tank effectively shrinks because an ICE engine overtime flat out wear out and gets worse and worse economy over time... Something that does not happen to an EV

Countries in North Africa such as Morocco receive so much solar power that they could theoretically export that power to Europe - or create products like eFuels or Hydrogen with that excess "renewable" power.

In Germany our retard politicians PAY our neighbors to accept our excess wind and solar power. Instead that excess power should be use to produce eFuels or Hydrogen. The world needs those products. Most hydrogen today is produced via gas and is thus not carbon neutral.



Solution? A modern Dual Fluid Reactor which can reuse the nuclear waste from conventional nuclear power plants for 10+ years.

Good luck with all of that...

[cawimmer430]

That is just simply not true anymore.  There are Tesla batteries out there with 500k miles that still have >90% of their capacity.

How were they charged? Slow and overnight? I'm always looking at these things from my POV and I simply have no desire to slow-charge an EV when I am always in a hurry racing from the next project to the next project and at the end of a hard day's work I wanna speed home.

Also yes, an ICE tank effectively shrinks because an ICE engine overtime flat out wear out and gets worse and worse economy over time... Something that does not happen to an EV.

Are you talking about carbon build-up?

[r0tor]

EVs have advanced battery management systems.  They are designed to charge and discharge the battery at rates to limit any degradation - especially since these components typically have relatively long warranty periods.

They are not the shitty things most phone makers  do which toasts your phone's battery in 2 years and for es you to buy a new phone.

Engines wear.  Piston rings wear.  Injectors wear and clog.  Valves get carbon buildup and valve seats wear.  Catalysts get clogged.  Intake manifolds and throttle bodies foul.  Fuel tanks get contaminated.  Sensors drift.... There are countless ways ICE engines lose efficiency and power with mileage.  Most of these issues are not present with electric motors.

[cawimmer430]

EVs have advanced battery management systems.  They are designed to charge and discharge the battery at rates to limit any degradation - especially since these components typically have relatively long warranty periods.

In my experience with even the Tesla Model 3 LONG RANGE, the battery drops very quickly while cruising at 120 km/h (74 mph) on the Autobahn with the A/C turned off. That was a 30 km stretch of highway on which I drove that car. In the city the range/battery charge remained relatively stable due to all the braking.

Birgit drives a BMW i3S and even with A/C on in the city the range/battery charge drops pretty badly. And that car is a 2018 model. Ok, it's got a small battery but still, that stuff alarms me. I like a car in which I can get into and don't have to worry about the range dropping like a rock when I use some convenience and comfort features.

Engines wear.  Piston rings wear.  Injectors wear and clog.  Valves get carbon buildup and valve seats wear.  Catalysts get clogged.  Intake manifolds and throttle bodies foul.  Fuel tanks get contaminated.  Sensors drift.... There are countless ways ICE engines lose efficiency and power with mileage.  Most of these issues are not present with electric motors.

Clogged catalysts sound like an issue that derives from short-range driving in which the converter does not reach its optimal regeneration temperature. Contaminated fuel will most likely not be an issue here with all of our strict industry standards etc.

Sure, the ICE has more parts than an electric motor and will naturally require more maintenance. Not a big deal if I feel that these engines give me more freedom than any [current] EV. Like I said, I value my time and with an ICE I can drive long distances, speed long distances, use comfort features and don't have to worry about my range dropping. When my fuel supply is low, I can fill up at a gas station in 5 minutes and then be on my way again.

Maybe one day when EVs can be charged up to 100% in 10 minutes tops I'll warm up to them, but for now ICE all the way. Plus, personally, I don't really care about what comes out of my tailpipe.

[r0tor]

Your car has more drag at higher speeds and this requires more energy - EV or ICE.  The efficiency of the EV motor itself isn't changing much at higher loads, however your ICE engine efficiency drops off a cliff at higher loads

[CaminoRacer]

My Bolt battery was in great condition after 100k miles.

[cawimmer430]

Your car has more drag at higher speeds and this requires more energy - EV or ICE.  The efficiency of the EV motor itself isn't changing much at higher loads, however your ICE engine efficiency drops off a cliff at higher loads

Just returned from a 218 km trip where I was really booking it. Spent at least 30 minutes driving non-stop at 170-220 km/h, lots of braking and accelerating and still I get an average fuel economy of 7.7 L / 100 km (30.5 mpg US). For an engine with a maximum efficiency of 30% I'd say that's darn amazing. 

On my car I can speed by tapping the accelerator very lightly. This prevents the turbo from being activated (according to my digital engine management screen) and making the engine even hotter which to my knowledge then results in extra fuel being injected into the combustion chamber just to cool it down. Basically I know how to drive this car fast and economically at the same time.

Would a basic EV like a Honda E or Chevrolet Bolt even manage such a one way trip on the Autobahn at these high speeds? Again, I view these things according to my needs and my driving style.