In early May I did business with a company which rents out classic cars. In their inventory they had a gorgeous blue 1965 Pontiac Catalina Ventura with the Big Block 7.0 V8 engine with about 360-380-horsepower. My parents got married in the Philippines and their wedding car was a 1967 Pontiac Parisienne (rebadged Catalina for export markets) which belonged to my mother's father who worked for GM. May 20th was my father's birthday and I thought this would be a nice surprise and a trip down memory lane for him and my mom.
1965 Pontiac Catalina Ventura - aka "Landyacht from the 1960s".
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp3GsJVH/Cathy-15.jpg)
So, early morning on May 20th I head down to Anzing (30 km from Munich) to pick up the Pontiac, named "Cathy" (all of their classic cars have names). This beauty was parked inside one of the two warehouses where the company stored their classic cars, most of which were German and an assortment of British, Italian and French classics. The Pontiac and a 1964 Ford Mustang with the 3.3-l inline-6 were the only American cars they had. I gotta say, that '65 Catalina is a beauty! An absolutely gorgeous design.
"Cathy" ready for a day-long adventure with me!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njnyz7S9/Cathy-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tFHdQWP/Cathy-2.jpg)
Before getting behind the wheel, I was given a quick tour on how to operate the car. It was fairly simple and self-explanatory for the most part. Just to be sure, I asked the employee how fast I could cruise with it on the Autobahn since I am aware of classic American cars from this era not being suitable for long high speed drives on the Autobahn (not that I was planning on doing this anyway!). He said 80 mph was a safe [maximum] speed which I could cruise at without fear of the engine and oil overheating. With this complete, I was given the keys and drove down to Mühldorf am Inn.
THE DRIVE
How did the car drive? That's what everyone wants to know! First, it won't break any Nürburgring lap records, and I wasn't expecting that. The car was "exhausting" to drive for many reasons. First, the steering "feedback" was so incredibly lifeless - and that's an understatement. Turn the wheel left/right two inches and then eventually you'd get "some feedback", just enough for me to know what the front wheels were up to. I was expecting vague steering but "vague" here does not even begin to describe it. It was incredibly exhausting to drive this car on the Autobahn due to the constant steering wheel corrections I had to apply.
Second, the suspension was incredibly boat-like, as expected. This car was very comfortable (as were the bench seats) and only liked to be driven in a straight line. Cornering? Good luck! The soft suspension and the incredibly lifeless steering feedback were putting an incredible mental and physical strain on me. It was an exhausting car to drive on the Autobahn, with its turns and varying degrees of ascending and descening roads. This car loved arrow-straight roads. Period.
The engine and transmission were the least problematic parts of the car. The 3-speed automatic (THM 400, I believe) was very smooth and shifted like a dream. The huge V8 engine had gobs of torque and power and moved this behemoth of a car with ease. I never did a kickdown, but I did accelerate hard from low speed at one point and man did this thing accelerate - and sound good while doing it. That carbureted V8 engine sounded so nicely.
Big Block 7.0 V8 - somewhere in Sweden some crazy teenager is crying and hysterically screaming "HOW DARE YOU!"
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsQ1ZMPP/Cathy-4.jpg)
During the entire trip I played it safe and cruised at 70 mph (112 km/h), which is slow for German standards, but I wanted to avoid engine overheating issues given the reputation that classic American cars have in Germany (they are known as being "nicht vollgasfest" which basically means you cannot speed with them because their engine and oil will quickly overheat). In this car, with it's lifeless steering and soft-sprung suspension, it wasn't an issue. 70 mph actually felt like the safest speed at which the car was still somewhat controllabe. When overtaking trucks I did push her up to 80 mph, 90 mph at one point, but after overtaking I quickly let her slip back down to 70 mph. Incidentally the car was very noisy at 70 mph - both in terms of engine noise and wind noises.
Cruising at 70 mph and playing it safe. The view of the long bonnet was awesome.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfn3mft1/Cathy-3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSyVpRkH/Cathy-5.jpg)
Fuel economy? Don't ask - and I didn't care that day! When I left Anzing the fuel tank was full. From Anzing to Mühldorf am Inn are roughly 70 km and by that time the fuel tank was at 3/4 full. And I was pretty much only driving at 70 mph the entire time! I could literally hear this engine guzzle down liter after liter of overpriced and overtaxed German gasoline.
Brakes? Decent. I am pretty sure this car had drum brakes (correct me if I am wrong) and they were ok at slowing down the car. I mean they weren't bad at all for a car from this era and weight! They did their job and they did it well.
Other observations? The driver's side mirror was pretty much useless since it was positioned further back and the three mirror setting options did little to help me see rear traffic. The passenger side mirror... wait this car didn't have one! Luckily the car was a total glass-house with excellent allround visibility when I turned my head to the right. And the center rearview mirror became my best friend.
The motorists around me were very respectful. When people overtook me they waved or took pictures of the car - and I always had a smile on my face despite the car being very strenous to drive. When I pulled out onto the left lane to overtake trucks, I always did so when there was nobody behind me so I could take my time. Despite this, the speeders would quickly close in on me and if I had been driving a normal car they would have flashed the hell out of me with their highbeam lights. Not so in the Pontiac. They kept their safety distance and as soon as I had overtaken the truck and pulled back into the slow lane they would speed past.
ARRIVING IN MÜHLDORF AM INN
When I arrived in Mühldorf am Inn I first of all cruised through the town square - twice - because people were flipping out in a positive way. I was getting thumbs up left and right from people sitting in cafes or enjoying ice cream on this warm day. Kids were like, "Dad/Mom, check that out!" and people stopped what they were doing to watch me drive this 6 meter long landyacht through town. It was an awesome feeling! I then stopped to snap these pictures of the lovely "Cathy" - what a gorgeous car.
"Cathy" posing for some snapshots!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq0Gjjkw/Cathy-6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ8ZWCJn/Cathy-7.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P4JGVJ6/Cathy-8.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYfLBPwx/Cathy-9.jpg)
After snaping these pictures I called up my dad, wished him a happy birthday and feigned a problem that I needed his and my mom's help when I pulled up in front of their home in two minutes. This would help in surprising them! Two minutes later I pull into the narrow street with the Pontiac and my parents both look at the car but didn't expect to see me behind the wheel! When they realized it was me, they were at first confused, but then totally enjoyed the surprise. There was a free parking space in front of their home but I needed my dad's verbal help to park the car since it lacked a passenger side mirror and I didn't want to scratch or damage the white-wall tires and wheels. It didn't have curb-scratchers.
Parallel parking "Cathy" would be a bit of a problem. Luckily this one spot was free which made parking much easier.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnQGrrHt/Cathy-10.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wB1YvDWp/Cathy-11.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBn8s3Ps/Cathy-12.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXfdk2KQ/Cathy-13.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qNkYgBW/Cathy-14.jpg)
After lunch, I took my parents for a joy drive around the region passing through several small towns in the area and getting even more thumbs up and looks and smiles from people. My parents enjoyed the drive but I had to stay focused since the country roads here are narrow and there are plenty of corners - which the Catalina didn't like. I couldn't drive the car fluidly and use the invested energy to coast around corners because I was first of all not used to the car, and second, the lifeless steering and soft suspension proved a dangerous combination. I had to use the brakes before cornering to slow the car down even further so I could safely corner.
My parents thanked me for the surprise, it brought back memories of their wedding and their life in the Philippines. Naturally their 1967 Pontiac Parisienne was sold during the 1973 Oil Crisis - I wonder why!
Mom and dad loved the surprise!
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCH1twxN/Cathy-16.jpg)
Around 3 PM I made my way back to Munich, again at 70 mph, planning to have a photo shoot with it and my girlfriend and later to return the car to the classic car rental company. About 5 km before Anzing, where the rental company was located, a TEMP warning light appeared in the dashboard. I knew this meant the engine or oil were overheating. Luckily this happened about a mile before a highway parking lot and I immediately pulled into it, turned off the engine and opened to hood for extra cooling. I called up the company who sent a mechanic over. He determined that the radiator had a coolant leak! He poured in three liters of water and immediately it began gushing out at the bottom! Holy shit! What a way to end what was an awesome day. The Pontiac couldn't be moved so the mechanic gave me a ride back to the rental company headquarters where my A250 had been parked. The Pontiac would have to be towed back.
Christian Wimmer (aka "me") behind "Cathy's" wheel before heading back to Munich.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZSsDZb8/Cathy-20.jpg)
What can I say? "Cathy" was incredibly exhausting to drive on the Autobahn and country roads - you really had to get used to that incredibly lifeless steering and soft suspension. It guzzled fuel like crazy and was loud. AND I ABSOLUTELY LOVED EVERY SECOND OF IT. This car, despite its "flaws", brought so much joy and excitement to me (and my mom and dad). I didn't fault the car for driving how it drove - it's a relic from another time, another era where the priorities were different. "Cathy" wanted to isolate her drivers from the world outside, hence the lifeless steering. She wanted to spoil you with comfort, hence the soft bench seats and soft, boat-like suspension. She was built and sold in a country where gasoline cost what... 17 cents a gallon? Sometimes I had trouble getting the engine to start - I had to turn the ignition and gave it a little gas and maybe after the third attempt the motor would start. FLAWS - but it's all good! Best of all was the design. I think this car was really gorgeous. A work of art on wheels. Absolutely stunning. I admired her and all those little details which made her so special.
As soon as "Cathy" is fixed I plan on renting her again for a Munich city cruise and photo shoot with my girlfriend. The most fun aspect of this car is not how it drives, but the reactions and looks you get from people when you cruise through town. :mrcool:
Some random interior pics...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMVJg619/Cathy-17.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYW4L2V7/Cathy-18.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jm3gMQc/Cathy-19.jpg)
Pontiac "Wide-Track", for a time they were GM's "sporty/racing" division. No 60's car compares well to modern cars but, back then, they were something else. I've always liked Pontiacs of that era, especially the '63. I remember seeing them in some Production Car races, along with Minis and Alfas.
The suspension and lifeless steering are why there's such a thriving restomod aftermarket for 60s cars. My El Camino drives a lot better with some suspension and steering upgrades. (Could still use a better steering box, maybe someday). Makes it much easier to cruise at 80-90 mph through the western states.
The smell of those cars is what hits me the most. I wonder what the exhaust smells like in Germany. I have noticed that US gas and European gas smell very different. Euro gas smells like cleaning fluid.
Just putting in modern shocks, plus replacing the suspension & steering linkage bushings, plus replacing the springs... would probably do a lot.
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 24, 2023, 07:57:01 PMJust putting in modern shocks, plus replacing the suspension & steering linkage bushings, plus replacing the springs... would probably do a lot.
Definitely. Tires too, depending on what's on there.
Great write up Wimmer. Great birthday gift for your Dad!
That is so mint, dude
Fantastic write-up. Very cool! My parents' wedding car was a fuselage Chrysler. I'll have to find the pictures. Anyway, a couple of points though:
If the engine is in proper tune (esp. timing, not modified) and the cooling system is in proper condition, the engine (oil or coolant) won't overheat at speed if but for extreme conditions (lapping a track, etc.), just as with any modern vehicle. If they're sensitive to overheating it will be at idle in very hot weather with the AC on, as the cooling fan is driven by the engine (i.e., turning very slow at idle).
Also, steering and suspension gets much better with all-new bushings, joints, shocks, links, steering gearbox, etc., which most of these vehicles of this vintage do not have. Not like a modern car but a surprisingly good and interesting driving experience when everything's within specification.
Lastly, this would have been powered by the 421 V8 (provided it was still factory original), which is 6.9L. The Pontiac 7.0L (428) didn't debut till 1967, which was the same engine, just with a slightly different bore (to match the same-year intro of the new 400 V8).
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 24, 2023, 03:29:16 PMPontiac "Wide-Track", for a time they were GM's "sporty/racing" division. No 60's car compares well to modern cars but, back then, they were something else. I've always liked Pontiacs of that era, especially the '63. I remember seeing them in some Production Car races, along with Minis and Alfas.
When I drove the car I wondered how Pontiac could be considered the "sporty" brand of GM since there was nothing sporty about this car. Or - the way this car drove was considered "sporty" at the time.
In fairness, I don't know if the steering and suspension were in tip-top shape and have perhaps gotten "soft" over the years, but even when brand new I just can't imagine this car being "sporty" at all.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 24, 2023, 04:52:14 PMThe suspension and lifeless steering are why there's such a thriving restomod aftermarket for 60s cars. My El Camino drives a lot better with some suspension and steering upgrades. (Could still use a better steering box, maybe someday). Makes it much easier to cruise at 80-90 mph through the western states.
I am a fan of keeping things stock, and if I owned this exact car I'd probably just keep it that way. Like I said, it was fun to drive in its own way and the real fun/cool factor comes from getting nice reactions from people. ;)
Also, at low speeds (like creeping through the city) the car is ok and the zero-feedback steering doesn't matter. I kind of want this car! I think it looks good and I absolutely loved the attention I got while driving it. That kind of stuff is addicting! :lol:
Quote from: Laconian on May 24, 2023, 06:49:16 PMThe smell of those cars is what hits me the most. I wonder what the exhaust smells like in Germany. I have noticed that US gas and European gas smell very different. Euro gas smells like cleaning fluid.
The exhaust smelled normal since there is no more leaded gasoline here. When I asked which fuel I had to use to fill her up I was told "regular gasoline" (but not E10 with 10% ethanol). ;)
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 24, 2023, 07:57:01 PMJust putting in modern shocks, plus replacing the suspension & steering linkage bushings, plus replacing the springs... would probably do a lot.
True, but it would also ruin the character of the car. I was expecting the steering to be lifeless and the suspension to be boat-like, it suits the character of the car in my opinion. ;)
Quote from: veeman on May 24, 2023, 10:45:32 PMGreat write up Wimmer. Great birthday gift for your Dad!
Thanks! ;)
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 25, 2023, 07:47:02 AMThat is so mint, dude
Loved the blue color inside and out. This was such a gorgeous car.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 25, 2023, 01:04:21 PMFantastic write-up. Very cool! My parents' wedding car was a fuselage Chrysler. I'll have to find the pictures. Anyway, a couple of points though:
If the engine is in proper tune (esp. timing, not modified) and the cooling system is in proper condition, the engine (oil or coolant) won't overheat at speed if but for extreme conditions (lapping a track, etc.), just as with any modern vehicle. If they're sensitive to overheating it will be at idle in very hot weather with the AC on, as the cooling fan is driven by the engine (i.e., turning very slow at idle).
Also, steering and suspension gets much better with all-new bushings, joints, shocks, links, steering gearbox, etc., which most of these vehicles of this vintage do not have. Not like a modern car but a surprisingly good and interesting driving experience when everything's within specification.
Lastly, this would have been powered by the 421 V8 (provided it was still factory original), which is 6.9L. The Pontiac 7.0L (428) didn't debut till 1967, which was the same engine, just with a slightly different bore (to match the same-year intro of the new 400 V8).
Thanks, and great info! ;)
Regarding the overheating issue, many classic American car owners here with whom I've done business or met will mention that these cars are not "vollgasfest", mainly because of the small amount of lubrication oil which these cars have. I believe this massive 7.0 (or 6.9-L as you said) V8 only has an oil lubrication capacity of about 3.5-4 liters, whereas for example the small 2.0 4-Cylinder Turbo engine in my A250 has nearly 6 liters of lubrication oil. Apparently more oil means it won't overheat as quickly and the oil cooler has an easier time keeping its temperature within normal limits. That's the explanation I hear. ;)
That being said, I loved the engine and its character. The V8 rumble at low speeds and at traffic lights... addicting! And the motor had power. When you gave it gas it easily accelerated this behemoth up to speed. Very nice.
I will definitely rent the car again!!! ;)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 27, 2023, 01:55:45 AMThanks, and great info! ;)
Regarding the overheating issue, many classic American car owners here with whom I've done business or met will mention that these cars are not "vollgasfest", mainly because of the small amount of lubrication oil which these cars have. I believe this massive 7.0 (or 6.9-L as you said) V8 only has an oil lubrication capacity of about 3.5-4 liters, whereas for example the small 2.0 4-Cylinder Turbo engine in my A250 has nearly 6 liters of lubrication oil. Apparently more oil means it won't overheat as quickly and the oil cooler has an easier time keeping its temperature within normal limits. That's the explanation I hear. ;)
That being said, I loved the engine and its character. The V8 rumble at low speeds and at traffic lights... addicting! And the motor had power. When you gave it gas it easily accelerated this behemoth up to speed. Very nice.
I will definitely rent the car again!!! ;)
Those "explanations" are incorrect FWIW. Standard oil capacity for "big block" American V8s such as the Pontiac V8 is at least 6 quarts (= ~6 liters). Plus, they're liquid cooled engines, which means the oil does nothing for cooling. You'll only overheat the engines of such vehicles if you don't keep them in a proper state of tune or repair.
A 7.0L V8 with 4 quarts of oil. The fuck are the Germans smoking over there. :wtf:
Quote from: GoCougs on May 27, 2023, 01:45:12 PMThose "explanations" are incorrect FWIW. Standard oil capacity for "big block" American V8s such as the Pontiac V8 is at least 6 quarts (= ~6 liters). Plus, they're liquid cooled engines, which means the oil does nothing for cooling. You'll only overheat the engines of such vehicles if you don't keep them in a proper state of tune or repair.
Depends whether it's Imperial or US quarts. 4 Imperial quarts = 5 US quarts. Back then, up here, most engines took 4 Imperial quarts of oil.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 27, 2023, 04:47:49 PMDepends whether it's Imperial or US quarts. 4 Imperial quarts = 5 US quarts. Back then, up here, most engines took 4 Imperial quarts of oil.
I live in the USA, so "at least 6 quarts" = "at least 6 US quarts (= ~6 liters)."
I've always put 5 quarts in my SBC
389 CID four barrel Quadrajet carb. This car has no factory A/C. Typical cracked steering wheel. To a modern European, the low end torque of the 389 must be a unique experience.
Wimmer, just hold the wheel with one hand and enjoy the soft ride. Cornering? Haha. Not happening.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 27, 2023, 01:45:12 PMThose "explanations" are incorrect FWIW. Standard oil capacity for "big block" American V8s such as the Pontiac V8 is at least 6 quarts (= ~6 liters). Plus, they're liquid cooled engines, which means the oil does nothing for cooling. You'll only overheat the engines of such vehicles if you don't keep them in a proper state of tune or repair.
Got it. I just quickly read up on this topic prior to renting the car and the German website explaining this issue claimed that these cars had a relatively low oil capacity compared to their displacement size and that "this" would deny the driver the ability to drive fast for sustained periods of time. ;)
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 27, 2023, 01:48:40 PMA 7.0L V8 with 4 quarts of oil. The fuck are the Germans smoking over there. :wtf:
Marlboro for the most part. :lol:
Quote from: shp4man on May 27, 2023, 07:54:50 PMWimmer, just hold the wheel with one hand and enjoy the soft ride. Cornering? Haha. Not happening.
I even used my pinky to steer the car in the city - so easy! :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on May 27, 2023, 01:45:12 PMThose "explanations" are incorrect FWIW. Standard oil capacity for "big block" American V8s such as the Pontiac V8 is at least 6 quarts (= ~6 liters). Plus, they're liquid cooled engines, which means the oil does nothing for cooling. You'll only overheat the engines of such vehicles if you don't keep them in a proper state of tune or repair.
I've driven I-80 through Nevada in the heat of the summer and the engine was running 200-210 F. I wouldn't have wanted to be in a car with a stock fan instead of electric fans, since stopping for gas would probably raise the temp instead of lower it. (I'd let it sit in the shade and run the electric fans for a little bit to cool things back to 180-190)
Wimmer, it would likely do 180 kph on the autobahn, though.
Depends on the tires.
Quote from: shp4man on May 29, 2023, 11:30:02 AMWimmer, it would likely do 180 kph on the autobahn, though.
Depends on the tires.
Trust me, this thing was best driven at 112 km/h (70 mph) because the faster you drove it the worse it handled. :lol:
They tend to get a little "floaty" over 60mph, as I recall.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 29, 2023, 04:41:11 PMThey tend to get a little "floaty" over 60mph, as I recall.
Yes. 70 mph was the best compromise speed to get forward. At this speed I could still "react" given the completely lifeless steering and soft suspension combination.
Plus, even as a speed freak, there are some cars which I will gladly drive slower on the Autobahn just because they can't cope with the high speeds. In the end it's not a problem since you learn to accept it that this thing wasn't built for this kind of driving. At the same time, it's brutal torture if I am forced to drive slow (aka speed limits) on the Autobahn in most German cars which are engineered for Autobahn-style driving.
What other vintage cars does this company have? It might be interesting to rent an authentic Pony/Muscle car for comparison...a '69/'70 Boss 302 would be perfect, or even a Z/28.
We look back at these cars with rose-tinted glasses: fantastic exuberant styling, big V8s etc. But they come nowhere close to measuring up to even a low-trim Camry or Corolla of the modern era, with systems feedback loops: everything metered, measured, optimized & monitored in real time.
1960s cars were fundamentally little different from 1930s cars.
A car of this vintage in proper condition can indeed cruise 100-110 mph on a freeway in good condition and in the right hands. It'll be floaty compared to a modern vehicle of course, and I wouldn't advise a non-enthusiast to do it however. Wouldn't do it in the wet though. The main, or at least first problem, is brakes. Circa 1965 most US vehicles still had drum brakes both front and rear and something of this class was over 4,000 lbs. At those speeds you're only going to get one marginal slow down (say 110 to 70 mph) and anything after that without letting them cool is gonna be sketchy. FWIW, Pontiacs of this vintage had optional (and insanely cool and industrial) 8-lug wheels which were integral with the drum brakes, which afforded larger drums (and better, though still not disc brake better):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4028/4229246275_ec9a1d2184_b.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 30, 2023, 08:08:15 AMWe look back at these cars with rose-tinted glasses: fantastic exuberant styling, big V8s etc. But they come nowhere close to measuring up to even a low-trim Camry or Corolla of the modern era, with systems feedback loops: everything metered, measured, optimized & monitored in real time.
1960s cars were fundamentally little different from 1930s cars.
This is true, although during the '60s there was more attention paid to "handling" among the sportier mid-size cars.
However, the excitement of driving them, especially the muscle/pony cars, was in the rawness, the slight tingling sense that came through the steering wheel and gas pedal, especially with high compression engines with big valves and a lumpier cam. Comparably, modern cars give a sense of sitting in a capsule with a steering wheel. Nothing really to stir the senses other than crappy drivers wandering into your lane when they're checking their phones.
Even the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2023, 06:36:18 AMEven the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.
Good point - nowadays if you want to waft on a cushion isolated in relative silence you have to spend 6 figures.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 31, 2023, 06:36:18 AMEven the most luxurious modern car rides like ass compared to an old land yacht like this. Everything is so stiff and handly these days.
Word.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 30, 2023, 05:55:00 AMWhat other vintage cars does this company have? It might be interesting to rent an authentic Pony/Muscle car for comparison...a '69/'70 Boss 302 would be perfect, or even a Z/28.
Here's the website. No English language available.
https://oldie-garage.com/
And here's a screenshot from their price list with their cars. Aha, I see that they also have a Corvette C3 Convertible. The Mustang is a '64 model but with the 3.3-l inline-6, no V8.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkxzh8tg/Untitled-1.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on May 30, 2023, 08:14:42 AMA car of this vintage in proper condition can indeed cruise 100-110 mph on a freeway in good condition and in the right hands. It'll be floaty compared to a modern vehicle of course, and I wouldn't advise a non-enthusiast to do it however. Wouldn't do it in the wet though. The main, or at least first problem, is brakes. Circa 1965 most US vehicles still had drum brakes both front and rear and something of this class was over 4,000 lbs. At those speeds you're only going to get one marginal slow down (say 110 to 70 mph) and anything after that without letting them cool is gonna be sketchy. FWIW, Pontiacs of this vintage had optional (and insanely cool and industrial) 8-lug wheels which were integral with the drum brakes, which afforded larger drums (and better, though still not disc brake better):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4028/4229246275_ec9a1d2184_b.jpg)
Nice info.
The brakes were pretty good. I figured that they were either drum brakes or a mix of drum front/rear and/or disc brakes front/rear, some combination of sorts. The brakes were in good shape and I had no issues slowing down the car in a city environment. Thankfully there was no real stop-and-go traffic in Mühldorf. Munich style traffic probably would have overheated the drum brakes!
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 01, 2023, 07:06:56 AMHere's the website. No English language available.
https://oldie-garage.com/
And here's a screenshot from their price list with their cars. Aha, I see that they also have a Corvette C3 Convertible. The Mustang is a '64 model but with the 3.3-l inline-6, no V8.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkxzh8tg/Untitled-1.jpg)
Too bad that there're no muscle cars. However, the Alfa Spider 1600 (should be an early vintage) and the Sunbeam Alpine Mk.4 should be fun for a drive in the country.
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 01, 2023, 02:07:48 PMToo bad that there're no muscle cars. However, the Alfa Spider 1600 (should be an early vintage) and the Sunbeam Alpine Mk.4 should be fun for a drive in the country.
This was the closest company I could find which rents out classic and current US muscle cars among others.
Jochen Schweizer Autoverleih (https://www.jochen-schweizer.de/motorpower/oldtimer-mieten-fahren/l/647wa?gclid=CjwKCAjwpuajBhBpEiwA_Ztfhd7Ebkk3zjELSTM2MvhP4JLDZxSeRPsfKuSEhrgN9chG6p2gkRye6xoCPIEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
And here are the cars from the first time I did business with them. Here's that Alfa which you like!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmT9JS4T/Fotos-f-r-Jo-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncghzY3F/Fotos-f-r-Jo-3.jpg)
So, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.
Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?
Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?
Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.
Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?
Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?
The old Pontiac 389 engine in the Quadrajet carburetor configuration had a 10.25 to 1 compression ratio and about 345 horsepower. It could easily push that old lead sled up to 120MPH. The limitation is the tires. The soft springs have no effect on speed. I know, I've done it in a '63 Buick with the same drivetrain except for the excellent Buick nailhead engine, which was marginally better than the Poncho motor.
Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.
Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?
Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?
I think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 03, 2023, 09:22:45 AMI think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.
Agreed. Carbs and points ignition both work great, as long as they're kept in tune and maintained. So for a hobby vehicle, would be fine. Would be a PITA to drive say 15,000-20,000 miles a year though.
Enter restomods, which IMO often times go too far. Jay Leno has done tons of modernizing without going full-on restomod - electrical, brakes, FI, etc. Very cool stuff.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 03, 2023, 09:22:45 AMI think radial tires and front disc brakes are well worth having in a car that is meant to be driven. The rest is fine as long as it is in good working order.
Bear in mind that cars of the '50s and '60s were driven thousands of cross-country miles during vacations, etc. They work just fine as long as they are not over-driven or driven carelessly. Speed limits, etc. were pretty much the same back then as now. The key is just to keep them in good working order.
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 04, 2023, 05:22:55 PMBear in mind that cars of the '50s and '60s were driven thousands of cross-country miles during vacations, etc. They work just fine as long as they are not over-driven or driven carelessly. Speed limits, etc. were pretty much the same back then as now. The key is just to keep them in good working order.
There were also "full service" gas stations. We don't quite need them, anymore. Cars just run until they don't because you never even changed the oil, and then you can just buy a new plastic computer with wheels.
Quote from: Morris Minor on June 02, 2023, 05:38:19 AMSo, without ruining it, how far can you go in bringing a car like this up to a standard where the driving characteristics are less scary? I mean obviously fix stuff like mechanicals & worn steering bits... plus suspension joints/bushings.
Modern shocks?
Electronic ignition instead of points/condenser?
Modern radial tires?
Getting controversial...
Disc brakes?
Monopoint fuel injection?
On 60s cars, especially popular ones like GM/Ford/etc, usually you can upgrade to disc brakes using OEM parts/designs since they offered disc brakes on most platforms. That's what I did on my car. It has 4 wheel disc brakes now, using '69 A-body front disc parts and late 70s Cadillac parts for the rear axle. Don't have to do the rear if you want to keep it more original, I only did that for ease of maintenance since I hate working on drum brakes.
HEI ignition is a great upgrade for reliability, although I went through a few modules before upgrading to an MSD ignition box to replace the module.
Radial tires are a must for a car driven more than around town, IMO.
Modernizing the wire harness with headlight relays can really help with headlight brightness. The sealed beams go from dim to perfectly adequate when you reduce the length of the higher voltage wire. Stock cars would have the wires go from the battery to the dash board and then back to the lights, so the voltage would drop quite a bit. With the relay, you can reduce the wire length by over half and have very little voltage drop.
IMO, modern headlights are much too bright. Even with sealed beams I seldom used high beams. As for brakes, front discs/rear drums are a good combination, but not necessary as classic cars are usually just driven to local "drive ins". Hot rods, of course, are an entirely different matter.
Tacomas still come with rear drum brakes, even the top of the line TRD Pro. They last forever (got like 185k miles on old Taco's factory drums). And Tacos have braking distances right in line with its other midsize competitors. So if it ain't broke... :huh: :lol:
Drag racers like drum brakes because they tend to hold better/easier at standstill under load (i.e., old school "brake torque") better than disc brakes as drum brakes typically have a much larger braking surface area. Outside that, drums are heavy, trap junk and heat and easily fall out of adjustment.