Poll
Question:
Which one for you?
Option 1: Citroen 2CV
votes: 11
Option 2: Renault 4CV
votes: 1
Option 3: I'd rather ride a horse!
votes: 1
Citroen 2CV - front engine, air-cooled, FWD
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/130/frenchcars1.jpg)
Renault 4CV - rear engine, liquid-cooled, RWD
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9940/frenchcars2.jpg)
Citroen 2CV!
This summer I hope to shoot an ex-French policecar from the '50s/'60s: a Renault 4CV tuned by legendary tuner Gordini!
Neither. I must be one of the few that can't comprehend the love for these cars.
I like the 2CV as a piece of art but not, particularly, as a car.
I'm not sure how or why, but there's one of these running around out here in East San Diego county, Calfornia. :huh: :lol:
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9940/frenchcars2.jpg)
That red thing isn't as butt ugly as that yellow thing. But I still don't want it.
love those deux chevaux. itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer
IIRC, the 4CV isn't remembered as fondly as the iconic 2CV.
Quote from: shp4man on January 15, 2013, 05:42:50 PM
I'm not sure how or why, but there's one of these running around out here in East San Diego county, Calfornia. :huh: :lol:
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9940/frenchcars2.jpg)
You sure it's a 4CV? AFAIK they were never sold in the US.
But the similar-looking (and larger) Renault Dauphine was. Also rear-engined.
(http://encarsglobe.com/data_images/models/renault-dauphine/renault-dauphine-04.jpg)
Quote from: Onslaught on January 15, 2013, 05:50:36 PM
That red thing isn't as butt ugly as that yellow thing. But I still don't want it.
The red one is
RWD! That's all that matters, bro! :thumbsup:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on January 15, 2013, 06:10:01 PM
The red one is RWD! That's all that matters, bro! :thumbsup:
No, it's still got to be good. Just because a car's RWD don't mean a thing.
And it's ugly.
And probably a Euro POS.
Quote from: J86 on January 15, 2013, 06:01:14 PM
love those deux chevaux. itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer
If you want to do roadtrips with one, the "Sahara" is the one to get. It's got two engines: one in the front, one in the back and is, AFAIK, the only car in the world that can be driven in either FWD, AWD or RWD mode! :lol:
(http://www.bestautophoto.com/images/citroen-2-cv-sahara-02.jpg)
Quote from: Onslaught on January 15, 2013, 06:11:19 PM
No, it's still got to be good. Just because a car's RWD don't mean a thing.
And it's ugly.
And probably a Euro POS.
Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on January 15, 2013, 06:13:11 PM
Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.
Oh, so they suck more then I thought.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on January 15, 2013, 06:12:24 PM
If you want to do roadtrips with one, the "Sahara" is the one to get. It's got two engines: one in the front, one in the back and is, AFAIK, the only car in the world that can be driven in either FWD, AWD or RWD mode! :lol:
(http://www.bestautophoto.com/images/citroen-2-cv-sahara-02.jpg)
That is REALLY awesome!
Although I think I'd pick something else for a long safari, or even just a long drive!
Quote from: J86 on January 15, 2013, 06:20:29 PM
That is REALLY awesome!
Although I think I'd pick something else for a long safari, or even just a long drive!
Here's a great roadtrip car from France! I am lusting after a Matra-Simca Rancho. It's sad that most of 'em have rusted away. :cry:
(http://i.auto-bild.de/ir_img/8/1/7/3/6/5/Talbot-Matra-Rancho-729x486-adc3f92e8264ee18.jpg)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on January 15, 2013, 06:13:11 PM
Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.
Wasn't the 2CV the 'peoples car' that they buried during the war and then dug it up when it was over? Seems I read something like that about it. To be perfectly honest, it was quite an innovative vehicle for the time and did serve the French public much in the same way that the Model T served much of the world previously. It even was useful on the farm and could traipse across a ploughed field as easily as a tractor. What I admire, mostly, about it, is the simple beauty. Art Deco at its finest.
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 15, 2013, 06:28:21 PM
Wasn't the 2CV the 'peoples car' that they buried during the war and then dug it up when it was over? Seems I read something like that about it. To be perfectly honest, it was quite an innovative vehicle for the time and did serve the French public much in the same way that the Model T served much of the world previously. It even was useful on the farm and could traipse across a ploughed field as easily as a tractor. What I admire, mostly, about it, is the simple beauty. Art Deco at its finest.
Yep, the prototype was constructed before World War II and hidden from the Germans.
(http://philpatton.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fda5a84883401157193b25d970b-800wi)
After the war the 2CV was one of the most advanced and intelligent designed (weigh distribution, packaging, features, suspension etc.) cars available. Despite it's simple and breakable appearance, they were quite solid.
They're very popular classic cars in Europe. Prices now range from 15,000 to even 30,000 Euros!!!
I can see the appeal and I wouldn't mind one. It's definitely one of the legendary and great cars of the world.
I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on January 15, 2013, 06:34:53 PM
Yep, the prototype was constructed before World War II and hidden from the Germans.
(http://philpatton.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fda5a84883401157193b25d970b-800wi)
Is that the one they dug up? :confused:
Obviously the early ones were not as pretty as the later series.
Quote from: Laconian on January 15, 2013, 06:36:55 PM
I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.
Same here. A roadtrip across France in a 2CV (and later in a DS, SM and CX) sounds like fun. The 2CV is comfortable and top speed on the more powerful versions is around 110 km/h.
Quote from: FoMoJo on January 15, 2013, 06:38:30 PM
Is that the one they dug up? :confused:
Obviously the early ones were not as pretty as the later series.
I think it was hidden in a farmhouse somewhere. Never read anything about the prototype being buried somewhere.
Absolutely the 2CV.
Quote from: Laconian on January 15, 2013, 06:36:55 PM
I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.
My boss reminds me of Rick Steves.
The Renault 4CV was sold in the US. Intended to rival the Beetle, it never even got close in sale volumes.
The 2CV Sahara is an intriguing concept, but not quite unique. BMC built a few Twinis, Minis with 2 engines as well, but it proved very hard to make them driveable and the idea was quickly scrapped. Someone has recreated an example, though.
Landslide victory for the 2CV! Wow!
Quote from: J86 on January 15, 2013, 06:01:14 PM
love those deux chevaux. itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer
Saw one of those years back when I had the Boxster. Pulled up alongside him, we exchanged nods, and I took off. Personally, I'd rather have an old SL for cruising.
Quote from: Colin on January 16, 2013, 01:27:53 AM
The Renault 4CV was sold in the US. Intended to rival the Beetle, it never even got close in sale volumes.
Yes, from 1949-61, the 4CV was available in America. Despite debuting Stateside the same year as the VW Beetle (and having the added benefit of four doors versus the Beetle's two), Renault 4CV sales were barely a blip on the radar compared to the omnipotent Volkswagen.
Early examples of
La Quatre Chevaux sold in America were sometimes referred to as the "Green Renault" because they were imported by the John L. Green Operations Corporation of New York (with regional offices in Los Angeles and Atlanta). By 1950, Renault had set up a direct factory branch office, also in New York, to handle the importation and distribution of Renualts in the US.
(http://www.velocetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1949-ad-for-4cv.jpg)
.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6076/6067001681_2b2d1bc291_b.jpg)
1949 models came in either "Standard" or "Grand Luxe" versions, with the Standard being dropped for 1950. 1951 models received a slightly smaller (but more powerful) engine and three new trim levels; 4CV (with sliding windows), 4CV Luxe and 4CV Super Grand Luxe (both with roll-down windows).
(http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B11443.jpg)
.
(http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B38646.jpg)
For 1952, the base 4CV and it's sliding windows disappeared.
(http://storm.oldcarmanualproject.com/renault/4cv/1954/01.jpg)
No major changes occurred until 1956 when the 747cc engine gained slightly more power and a Fertec automatic clutch became optional. 1956 US-spec models also included a new rubber-mounted front suspension, automatic choke, a semi-pliable plastic steering wheel, sunvisors and interior door handles. Rubber safety trim now cushioned the lower edge of the dashboard and the upper edge of the windshield frame.
(http://www.regresspress.com/catalog-images/renault_4_cv_1956_id340.jpg)
.
(http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B3273-2.jpg)
1957 4CV trims were simplified to one model as the newly launched Dauphine became the primary focus of Renault's US marketing efforts. The 4CV remained available in the US until 1961 when production in France ended.
These are the US sales figures I could find......
1949: 1,402
1950: 1,551
1951: 777
1952: 374
1953: 110 (4CV and Fregate combined)
Looks like sales started okay but then began to slide. I have no data for 1954-56 sales but, with the launch of the Dauphine in 1957, Renault's US sales skyrocketed.
1957: 22,586 (4CV and Dauphine combined)
1958: 48,148 (4CV and Dauphine combined)
1959: 91, 073 (4CV and Dauphine combined)
Its safe to assume the lion's share of those sales were of the Dauphine. Renault sales then began to slide again in the early '60s.
1960: 62,772 (4CV, Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)
1961: 44,122 (4CV, Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)
1962: 29,763 (Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)
Thanks for the info, Madman.
What kind of Americans bought Renaults in those days? Were these people who wanted something economical? Wanted to be different? Or generally just had a thing for foreign cars?
There's a great story on the Renault Caravelle. They named it "Floride" for the American market because they wanted to sell many of these in America and figured that by naming it after an American state, it would do well in sunny Florida! :praise:
Amazing how much fun people had in a 45/55-hp rear-engined convertible/coupe in those days! :lol:
(http://www.mad4wheels.com/webpics/hires/00007771%20-%201958%20Renault%20Floride/1958_Renault_Floride_007_6682.jpg)
Well, I wasn't alive when the 4CV was sold here (I wasn't born until '69) so I can't really say what motivated some Americans to choose a Renault (or any other "foreign" car) over the ubiquitous American cars of the era.
What I do know is that many contemporary ads from European manufacturers in America pitched their cars as a "second" car. I guess as something for the wife to drive or a backup car to have in addition to a traditional huge American car? From reading many old advertisements, I get the impression nobody expected the typical American to drive "some funny little furrin' car" as their primary vehicle.
BTW, I'm afraid to say you have the Floride/Caravelle names backwards. Wikipedia explains it best......
"Renault were envious of the growing success in North America of the Volkswagen Bug/Beetle and were looking for ways they might match the Volkswagen's success with their own Renault Dauphine. At a convention of North American distributors that took place in Florida, Renault's US dealers called for the creation of a Dauphine coupé/cabriolet which would improve Renault's image in the critical US market. Renault's chairman, Pierre Dreyfus, agreed, and since the concept had been born at a convention in Florida the car instantly became known within the company as the "Renault Floride". The "Floride" name was considered unsuitable for 49 of the 50 states of the USA, however, since it could have implied disrespect to states other than Florida. For this reason an alternative name, "Caravelle", was from the start used for North America and for other major markets (including the UK) where the principal language was a form of English."
I should also point out that from 1962-onwards, the Caravelle name replaced Floride in all markets, including France.
Neither - they're both ugly and unappealing in the same way the most grossly overrated car of all time (the DS) is.
I'd rather drive an early 80's Detroit rust bucket - at least there is a sense of hilarity that goes along with the downright terribleness.
Quote from: Submariner on January 16, 2013, 04:35:23 PM
Neither - they're both ugly and unappealing in the same way the most grossly overrated car of all time (the DS) is.
I'd rather drive an early 80's Detroit rust bucket - at least there is a sense of hilarity that goes along with the downright terribleness.
Heretic! Burn him! BURN HIM NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :heated:
Quote from: Raza on January 16, 2013, 11:05:59 AM
Saw one of those years back when I had the Boxster. Pulled up alongside him, we exchanged nods, and I took off. Personally, I'd rather have an old SL for cruising.
Already have one of those :lol:
Quote from: SVT666 on January 15, 2013, 10:31:19 AM
Neither. I must be one of the few that can't comprehend the love for these cars.
The 2CV essentially made the country of France (and other parts of Europe) mobile in 1939. It's their version of the Model T or the VW Beetle.
I saw a 2CV the other day, LHD
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/408113_4006517567867_1705361777_n.jpg)
I had never seen one before...it's quite charming, it really makes one SMILE.
Quote from: Madman on January 16, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
Heretic! Burn him! BURN HIM NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :heated:
Even if you don't like the styling, the car is probably the most cutting edge family sedans of the day. Shocking to realize it was introudced in the 1950's. It still looks timeless to this day.
Am I the only one who thinks the proportions of those wheels are HUGE?
(http://storm.oldcarmanualproject.com/renault/4cv/1954/01.jpg)
Quote from: Madman on January 16, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
Heretic! Burn him! BURN HIM NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :heated:
I do agree.
No, I mean I agree with the burning of anyone who doesn't appreciate the DS.
Quote from: Rupert on January 16, 2013, 08:15:29 PM
No, I mean I agree with the burning of anyone who doesn't appreciate the DS.
Set me on fire then.
Do you and Sub mind lying out here? It would be much easier for me, then.
Quote from: Rupert on January 17, 2013, 01:36:22 AM
Do you and Sub mind lying out here? It would be much easier for me, then.
Sure, we'll drive up in a DS that I worked over with a tire iron.
:rage:
Quote from: Submariner on January 16, 2013, 04:35:23 PM
Neither - they're both ugly and unappealing in the same way the most grossly overrated car of all time (the DS) is.
I'd rather drive an early 80's Detroit rust bucket - at least there is a sense of hilarity that goes along with the downright terribleness.
Buddy, the Citroen DS is one of the most iconic, revolutionary and innovative cars of all times. If there's a list of "Top Five Cars" the Citroen DS should automatically have a permanent place somewhere in that top five ranking. :ohyeah:
Here's a Buyers Guide from Auto Classic magazine regarding the Renault Dauphine. It's in German but hey, there are some pictures to look at! :lol:
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/424/renaultdauphineac1.th.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/renaultdauphineac1.jpg/) (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7179/renaultdauphineac2.th.jpg) (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/renaultdauphineac2.jpg/)
As long as were talking about Renault Dauphines, here the US TV commercial which introduced the car to America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYE_LIvD2I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYE_LIvD2I)
Evidently, obtaining parts and service for many "foreign" cars was a major concern for American buyers and many commercials (including this one) really stress the ease of finding parts and service for the car.
Quote from: Madman on January 18, 2013, 07:23:28 AM
As long as were talking about Renault Dauphines, here the US TV commercial which introduced the car to America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYE_LIvD2I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjYE_LIvD2I)
Evidently, obtaining parts and service for many "foreign" cars was a major concern for American buyers and many commercials (including this one) really stress the ease of finding parts and service for the car.
What an honest commercial. :praise:
Don't you just miss '50s advertising? That would never work in this day and age. These days you need half-naked women to sell a load of Bibles to a church!
My dad bought a 4CV new in '61, and bought it over the Beetle because it was cheaper and had 4 doors, just the thing for a new family. I learned how to drive in that car when I was but 5 years old. He still has it. I also have a '61 4CV, much like his, though mine doesn't run (I have an 1108cc Gordini engine for it that makes a whopping 100 hp, vs the 28 hp the stocker made...). Mine is kept at my dad's house in Seattle, and one of these days, i'm going to pay to have it brought over here to Baltimore ( I was expecting to only be here 5 years when I first came here, and then be back on the west coast to work on it). It'll make a great city car and conversation starter.
And yes, part of the problem with these cars was in obtaining parts for them. If something did go wrong, you could barely get parts from a dealer, much less the aftermarket. Funny that it's much easier to get parts for them NOW than when they were new, thanks to the internet.
Quote from: 2o6 on January 16, 2013, 07:28:40 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the proportions of those wheels are HUGE?
They are 15" wheels on a 1300 lb car that could fit INSIDE a VW Beetle.
mine looks identical to this one, with the later disc wheels (that were 3 lug, vs the 5 lug of the earlier cars):
(http://www.autoweek.com/storyimage/CW/20100519/COLLECTOR/100519847/AR/0/1958-renault-4cv.jpg)
Oh, look, someone in Florifda modded one:
(http://images.floridalocalclassifieds.com/nlarge/1961-renault-4cv-modified-vw-drivetrain_23692062.jpg)
Has a VW drivetrain...
And another modded one:
(http://vwkombi.com/photos/wroughton-classic/Images/67.jpg)
Sorry, but I LOVE these little cars. I like tiny cars anyhow, but I love unusual ones that are rare. I've had VW beetles, This one is cooler.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 06, 2013, 07:19:18 AM
My dad bought a 4CV new in '61, and bought it over the Beetle because it was cheaper and had 4 doors, just the thing for a new family. I learned how to drive in that car when I was but 5 years old. He still has it. I also have a '61 4CV, much like his, though mine doesn't run (I have an 1108cc Gordini engine for it that makes a whopping 100 hp, vs the 28 hp the stocker made...). Mine is kept at my dad's house in Seattle, and one of these days, i'm going to pay to have it brought over here to Baltimore ( I was expecting to only be here 5 years when I first came here, and then be back on the west coast to work on it). It'll make a great city car and conversation starter.
And yes, part of the problem with these cars was in obtaining parts for them. If something did go wrong, you could barely get parts from a dealer, much less the aftermarket. Funny that it's much easier to get parts for them NOW than when they were new, thanks to the internet.
Awesome.
If you need help with spare parts, I know someone with a 4CV here (ex-French policecar, Gordini-tuned) and he completely restored the car from a rustbucket to its current glory. I hope to shoot the car this summer.
Agreed. A 4CV is Waaaaaaaaay cooler than a Beetle. I would have thought the practicality of having four doors would have made the 4CV (and later, the Dauphine) a much bigger seller than the two-door-only Beetle.
Quote from: ChrisV on February 06, 2013, 07:19:18 AM
My dad bought a 4CV new in '61, and bought it over the Beetle because it was cheaper and had 4 doors, just the thing for a new family. I learned how to drive in that car when I was but 5 years old. He still has it. I also have a '61 4CV, much like his, though mine doesn't run (I have an 1108cc Gordini engine for it that makes a whopping 100 hp, vs the 28 hp the stocker made...). Mine is kept at my dad's house in Seattle, and one of these days, i'm going to pay to have it brought over here to Baltimore ( I was expecting to only be here 5 years when I first came here, and then be back on the west coast to work on it). It'll make a great city car and conversation starter.
And yes, part of the problem with these cars was in obtaining parts for them. If something did go wrong, you could barely get parts from a dealer, much less the aftermarket. Funny that it's much easier to get parts for them NOW than when they were new, thanks to the internet.
I have to imagine safety, or the virtual complete lack of it, would be a concern.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 06, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
I have to imagine safety, or the virtual complete lack of it, would be a concern.
No worse than driving that Fiat around, or a scooter/motorcycle in traffic. Or a kit car or dune buggy. or a fiberglass hot rod based on a '27 Ford Model T. I'm just not scared to drive any car in traffic. Drove these things around safely when there was nothing but '70s domestic behemoths around us and survived.