I wanna get new, more aggressive pads.... can I keep my rotors? They don't judder. I wanna change my fluid and get SS lines too. Is DOT 5 too much for the street?
If the rotors are in good condition, not glazed, and have even wear, then it won't matter. Biggest thing is getting the new pads to bed nicely.
SS lines are wonderful, and go with DOT 4.
I´ve put new, different pads on used rotors a ton of times. You'll be fine. It'd be insanely expensive to track if I swapped rotors every time I swap pads.
Also: you don't need to change to a higher temp fluid for the street. Lol. Or lel. SS lines also a waste. I have them on the E46 and don't have them on the 1M. No noticeable change. On the track, for street use no way that's necessary.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 07, 2016, 06:59:48 PM
Also: you don't need to change to a higher temp fluid for the street. Lol. Or lol. SS lines also a waste. I have them on the E46 and don't have them on the 1M. No noticeable change. On the track, for street use no way that's necessary.
I concur. For street use just use what brake fluid the car's manufacturer says to use. Regarding SS, I assume we are talking about replacing the flex lines. Depending on how old the car is it might be wise to replace them. Occasionally they deteriorate to the point that they do not allow the braked to fully release; the interior swells and acts as a one way valve. One of the front lines on our F150 did this. Just install good OEM quality flex lines and you're good to go.
SS lines usually help firm up the brake pedal. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 07, 2016, 08:21:48 PM
SS lines usually help firm up the brake pedal. :huh:
Warning, like K&N filters this topic usually starts heated discussions.
I'm sure they do, and I'm also sure most would never notice it.
Think about it. You take a car and change the flex hoses and probably 99 out of 100 times you change the brake fluid and 100% of the time you at least bleed the brakes. and if you are bothering with stainless flex lines you probably installed new pads and cleaned up the brake calipers. That in itself, fresh brake fluid alone, will firm up the pedal. Then there is the placebo effect. You shelled out bucks for those parts and expect them to make a difference, so...............
Mario Andretti or John Lingenfelter may be able to tell the difference but Joe average driver won't notice much if anything at all except a slightly lighter wallet.
I'd love to see some kind of decent study with back to back data that shows what differences, if any are achieved by using them.
You should try stainless steel brake fluid.
And you replace old flex hoses with new flex hoses.
Quote from: Rupert on January 07, 2016, 08:52:27 PM
And you replace old flex hoses with new flex hoses.
And/or permanently wrap the old/new rubbery hoses in bailing wire. How could that not stop the supposed expansion, thereby improving brake feels? You could coil up all four wheels with $5 worth of wire.
The only nay-sayers for SS that I've seen are right here in this thread.
Car enthusiasts are known for their susceptibility to snake oil via their DIY don't-ask-a-professional-ask-another-DIY-guy methods. Goes both ways, of course.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on January 07, 2016, 08:57:58 PM
And/or permanently wrap the old/new rubbery hoses in bailing wire. How could that not stop the supposed expansion, thereby improving brake feels? You could coil up all four wheels with $5 worth of wire.
Or wrap them with rubbery rope.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 07, 2016, 08:59:36 PM
The only nay-sayers for SS that I've seen are right here in this thread.
When I did them on the M3 I couldn't tell the difference, but like CLKid said, I did pads and fluid as the same time so who knows? On the 1M I haven't done it and it brakes just fine even on the track only with pads and fluid. Admittedly, I may push a bit less these days than back when I started tracking. I don't go 100% most of the time on braking. No point to wear the car so much IMO.
Maybe the Civic rubber lines are rubbish and it would be very noticeable even on Sporty's commute.
I have full faith that the pressure specs on a 1M brake line are greater than for a Civic.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 07, 2016, 09:37:01 PM
I have full faith that the pressure specs on a 1M brake line are greater than for a Civic.
Brake lines is brake lines, mang.
I think the DOT brake line requirements for stock lines are stupid high - like has to be able to withstand 4000 psi so x number of minutes without exploding. I don't think stainless steel lines will prevent further expansion over stock lines considering stock lines are held to such a high standard. The only reason I can see getting stainless steel lines is on the track, where repeated hard braking causes everything to heat up to crazy high temps. Maybe then stainless steel lines could prevent pedal fade/squishiness.
I don't have SS lines on my track car yet (waiting to get a BBK which includes SS lines), and I'm going with brake ducts first to cool the brakes down before swapping lines. I do boil my fluid pretty quickly, though.
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a (http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/stainless-steel-brake-lines-q-a)
Says a company who sells braided brake hoses. ;)
Quote from: thecarnut on January 07, 2016, 11:24:48 PM
I think the DOT brake line requirements for stock lines are stupid high - like has to be able to withstand 4000 psi so x number of minutes without exploding. I don't think stainless steel lines will prevent further expansion over stock lines considering stock lines are held to such a high standard. The only reason I can see getting stainless steel lines is on the track, where repeated hard braking causes everything to heat up to crazy high temps. Maybe then stainless steel lines could prevent pedal fade/squishiness.
I don't have SS lines on my track car yet (waiting to get a BBK which includes SS lines), and I'm going with brake ducts first to cool the brakes down before swapping lines. I do boil my fluid pretty quickly, though.
Material can stretch without breaking. Two different materials can carry the same amount of stress but with different amounts of strain (stretch or deflection). Braided stainless lines do stretch less than typical rubber lines, and that can give you a bit more feel. I think they are more noticeable on something like a motorcycle than a car that has power brakes and not likely something I'd invest in for a car.
What do they use on rally cars? I would go with whatever that is. Maybe some kind of carbon fiber coated flexible tungsten with teflon nanoprobe repair bots.
Quote from: Rupert on January 08, 2016, 01:35:34 AM
Says a company who sells braided brake hoses. ;)
Hmm okay let's take a poll.
Who here has SS lines on a car that used to have rubber?
I do! And I notice a difference. My brake feel is fantastic.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 08:51:09 AM
Hmm okay let's take a poll.
Who here has SS lines on a car that used to have rubber?
I do! And I notice a difference. My brake feel is fantastic.
How old were those rubber lines?
I'm not arguing that SS lines aren't a good upgrade, but I don't know if I'd do it on a strictly street driven car. :huh:
If the guy wants to put race lines on a Civic to never track it, fine.
Quote from: thecarnut on January 08, 2016, 10:06:36 AM
How old were those rubber lines?
I'm not arguing that SS lines aren't a good upgrade, but I don't know if I'd do it on a strictly street driven car. :huh:
Not old.
But, that's a good point. SS lines shouldn't wear out like rubber ones do. So you get longevity on your good brake feel too.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 10:19:41 AM
Not old.
But, that's a good point. SS lines shouldn't wear out like rubber ones do. So you get longevity on your good brake feel too.
SS lines still have some kind of rubber or polymer in them to prevent fluid from weeping out between the braided strands.
I will say this. When I first got the car, the brake pedal was pretty solid. And when I went in for my last service, they said I am due for new fluid. So a flush alone might do it. But I figure, if I am doing a flush the lines will be empty anyway, which would be an ideal time to change them out. Could it be a total placebo effect? Maybe. Is it overkill for a SOHC commuter Honda Civic? Most definitely :lol: But I figure I might as well. I feel like the flush and bleed will do the heavy lifting though.
Maybe your firewall has stress cracks around the master cylinder from all that manly, heavy brake feeling you like to do.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 08, 2016, 12:38:02 PM
I will say this. When I first got the car, the brake pedal was pretty solid. And when I went in for my last service, they said I am due for new fluid. So a flush alone might do it. But I figure, if I am doing a flush the lines will be empty anyway, which would be an ideal time to change them out. Could it be a total placebo effect? Maybe. Is it overkill for a SOHC commuter Honda Civic? Most definitely :lol: But I figure I might as well. I feel like the flush and bleed will do the heavy lifting though.
Why would your lines be empty during a flush? You're continually cycling fluid through the system till you get fresh fluid coming out the ends. At no point should you have empty lines during a flush...
Quote from: thecarnut on January 08, 2016, 12:52:54 PM
Why would your lines be empty during a flush? You're continually cycling fluid through the system till you get fresh fluid coming out the ends. At no point should you have empty lines during a flush...
It's good to air everything out and let it breathe before you fill it up again.
(http://i.imgur.com/fDbmt6M.gif)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 08:51:09 AM
Hmm okay let's take a poll.
Who here has SS lines on a car that used to have rubber?
I do! And I notice a difference. My brake feel is fantastic.
I used them on my first E-type. Zero difference noted.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 08:51:09 AM
Hmm okay let's take a poll.
Who here has SS lines on a car that used to have rubber?
I do! And I notice a difference. My brake feel is fantastic.
You'll understand if I wait for a real test before I draw my conclusions, won't you?
Quote from: Rupert on January 08, 2016, 08:53:42 PM
You'll understand if I wait for a real test before I draw my conclusions, won't you?
Not my fault if you are unwilling to listen to the scientific reasonings why a stiffer line makes for a less squishy pedal. There's no way to "test" brake feel other than listen to people who have upgraded.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 10:43:11 PM
Not my fault if you are unwilling to listen to the scientific reasonings why a stiffer line makes for a less squishy pedal. There's no way to "test" brake feel other than listen to people who have upgraded.
OK...
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 07, 2016, 06:59:48 PM
Also: you don't need to change to a higher temp fluid for the street. Lol. Or lol. SS lines also a waste. I have them on the E46 and don't have them on the 1M. No noticeable change. On the track, for street use no way that's necessary.
Quote from: MX793 on January 08, 2016, 05:25:47 AM
Braided stainless lines do stretch less than typical rubber lines, and that can give you a bit more feel. I think they are more noticeable on something like a motorcycle than a car that has power brakes and not likely something I'd invest in for a car.
Quote from: CLKid on January 08, 2016, 08:30:25 PM
I used them on my first E-type. Zero difference noted.
Again, on a track car where you're doing repeated hard, fast stops with little cooldown in between, I'd upgrade to SS lines just to make sure everything is track-capable. On a daily driven Civic that's not likely to see the track? What's the point?
SS lines don't help with heat.
Lots of reasons to upgrade, as seen on the link I posted. Stronger, more durable, may help with brake pedal squishiness (depending on what you started with).
I'm surprised a motorcycle guy is against them, since practically every bike review I've read in the past month has said "could use SS to improve feel".
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 12:34:54 AM
SS lines don't help with heat.
Lots of reasons to upgrade, as seen on the link I posted. Stronger, more durable, may help with brake pedal squishiness (depending on what you started with).
I'm surprised a motorcycle guy is against them, since practically every bike review I've read in the past month has said "could use SS to improve feel".
If you're referring to me as the motorcycle guy, I can barely ride them. :lol:
I swapped the front brake lines for SS on my bike and didn't really notice a difference, though. I don't track my bikes so for DD use I haven't noticed a difference.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/)
QuoteWhen testing volumetric expansion, Goodridge found that standard OE-type rubber brake hose expanded by 0.136 cc/ft at 1,000 psi, 0.150 cc/ft at 1,500 psi, and 0.290 cc/ft at 2,900 psi, whereas the company's PTFE braided stainless hoses expanded by only 0.0002932 cc/ft at 4,000 psi. The close-to-zero expansion to the braided hose means the brake pedal will feel firmer and will respond more quickly to brake pedal inputs, and if you've done any racing then you'll know that even a split-second faster response from the braking system can mean the difference between slowing enough to make the corner and finding yourself parked backward in the weeds.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 12:55:26 AM
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/)
That's better, but it fails to test whether that difference is noticeable to the driver in any context. How much pressure gets applied to brake lines during hard braking (500 psi or 5000 psi)?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 08, 2016, 10:43:11 PM
Not my fault if you are unwilling to listen to the scientific reasonings why a stiffer line makes for a less squishy pedal. There's no way to "test" brake feel other than listen to people who have upgraded.
No, that is not scientific. Scientific would be an objective repeatable test, not an untested hypothesis. It sounds good to say that a stiffer line makes for a stiffer pedal, but are regular lines the limiting factor? Are stiffer lines that much stiffer? Do regular lines even flex, and do stiffer lines really flex less?
Finally, of course you can test pedal feel, it's an easy concept. Take a few different brand new cars, get a bunch of different testers. Double-blind comparative tests of the brand new OEM lines and the braided steel lines. You could also measure the strain on the lines and relate that to pedal feel.
Listening to people's subjective opinions about stuff is the worst way to learn about objective things. True experts both know their limitations and know what the objective results have been, but even then most of the time they don't know exactly the result you want.
Posted in the wrong order there...
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 02:25:28 AM
That's better, but it fails to test whether that difference is noticeable to the driver in any context. How much pressure gets applied to brake lines during hard braking (500 psi or 5000 psi)?
That's easy. All you need to know is you hard you are pressing on the brake pedal, the power assist factor, the ratio of length between the pedal and master cylinder versus the pivot, and the master cylinder bore size. So, about 1000.
Quote from: CLKid on January 07, 2016, 08:15:45 PM
I concur. For street use just use what brake fluid the car's manufacturer says to use. Regarding SS, I assume we are talking about replacing the flex lines. Depending on how old the car is it might be wise to replace them. Occasionally they deteriorate to the point that they do not allow the braked to fully release; the interior swells and acts as a one way valve. One of the front lines on our F150 did this. Just install good OEM quality flex lines and you're good to go.
I've cooked brake fluid before (a couple of times) on the street with the ol' SVT. It all depends on how you drive... :lol:
Quote from: SVT_Power on January 09, 2016, 09:25:36 AM
I've cooked brake fluid before (a couple of times) on the street with the ol' SVT. It all depends on how you drive... :lol:
Drive like you stole it and want to get caught, yo.
Quote from: Rupert on January 07, 2016, 09:16:16 PM
Car enthusiasts are known for their susceptibility to snake oil via their DIY don't-ask-a-professional-ask-another-DIY-guy methods. Goes both ways, of course.
Word. There are untold hours and $$$ invested in basic automotive systems - air intake to exhaust to brakes to pretty much everything else - such that there are no uncovered bones.
I think the confusion comes from the fact in believing the external covering takes the pressure. It's simply a protective covering for the layers underneath, one of which is an inner line that actually takes the pressure and that's going to be the same whether it's a SS or factory "rubber" brake line. Even if there was some expansion in the 18" of flex line it's it's gonna be very small if not insignificant compared to everything else that is going on that may affect brake feel (heating of fluid and pads, flex in the other 20+ feet of hard brake line, flex in the caliper, changes in vacuum, etc.).
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 02:25:36 AM
No, that is not scientific. Scientific would be an objective repeatable test, not an untested hypothesis. It sounds good to say that a stiffer line makes for a stiffer pedal, but are regular lines the limiting factor? Are stiffer lines that much stiffer? Do regular lines even flex, and do stiffer lines really flex less?
Finally, of course you can test pedal feel, it's an easy concept. Take a few different brand new cars, get a bunch of different testers. Double-blind comparative tests of the brand new OEM lines and the braided steel lines. You could also measure the strain on the lines and relate that to pedal feel.
Listening to people's subjective opinions about stuff is the worst way to learn about objective things. True experts both know their limitations and know what the objective results have been, but even then most of the time they don't know exactly the result you want.
No one has ever done anything like that for
any automotive part. :wtf:
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 02:25:28 AM
That's better, but it fails to test whether that difference is noticeable to the driver in any context. How much pressure gets applied to brake lines during hard braking (500 psi or 5000 psi)?
Well, multiply the expansion by 1.5 for an 18" line, then by 4 (for each wheel).
Under braking, it's usually 2000 psi. But notice the psi they used for rubber vs. SS. The SS is practically 0 at higher psi than the rubber is even tested at.
Quote from: SVT_Power on January 09, 2016, 09:25:36 AM
I've cooked brake fluid before (a couple of times) on the street with the ol' SVT. It all depends on how you drive... :lol:
I've cooked them once, coming down a mountain side in race-car mode. Need 14.5" rotors for my heavy car.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 09, 2016, 11:31:20 AM
Word. There are untold hours and $$$ invested in basic automotive systems - air intake to exhaust to brakes to pretty much everything else - such that there are no uncovered bones.
I think the confusion comes from the fact in believing the external covering takes the pressure. It's simply a protective covering for the layers underneath, one of which is an inner line that actually takes the pressure and that's going to be the same whether it's a SS or factory "rubber" brake line. Even if there was some expansion in the 18" of flex line it's it's gonna be very small if not insignificant compared to everything else that is going on that may affect brake feel (heating of fluid and pads, flex in the other 20+ feet of hard brake line, flex in the caliper, changes in vacuum, etc.).
There is no confusion, and GTFO of here with your "stock is best". Most new stock brake pedals are spongy garbage. Lots of assist and little feel, which is what the masses like. Performance cars change almost all aspects of the system to improve control, feel, and heat.
The inner line takes the pressure, but the outer layer can prevent the inner layer from expanding. Also, notice that many hi-po SS brake lines use a better inner line that can withstand more pressure before bursting.
SS lines aren't the holy grail of brake feel, just a piece of the puzzle.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 12:35:31 PM
There is no confusion, and GTFO of here with your "stock is best". Most new stock brake pedals are spongy garbage. Lots of assist and little feel, which is what the masses like. Performance cars change almost all aspects of the system to improve control, feel, and heat.
The inner line takes the pressure, but the outer layer can prevent the inner layer from expanding. Also, notice that many hi-po SS brake lines use a better inner line that can withstand more pressure before bursting.
SS lines aren't the holy grail of brake feel, just a piece of the puzzle.
Yes, you're totally confused if you truly think SS brake lines improve in any way brake feel on a 45+ year old car.
Your theory is also busted through simple logic. You're gonna have to have a fair amount of expansion in just 18" x 4 lines to affect pedal feel, and that amount of cyclical material expansion = fatigue = relatively quick failure.
Also, I can't find a car that comes from the factory with SS brake lines, including very hi-po cars:
1LE:
(http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=617476&stc=1&d=1397670221)
ZL1:
(http://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117646&stc=1)
C7:
(http://services.edmunds-media.com/image-service/media-ed/ximm/?quality=85&image=/chevrolet/corvette/2014/fe/2014_chevrolet_corvette_det_fe_7021325_600.jpg)
Didn't I already tell you to GTFO of here with your OEM BS?
Mass produced street cars aren't going to use SS for a variety of reasons, mostly revolving around cost and the scale of production. They also don't use SS hard line. OEM is NOT the king of performance, like you so foolishly believe.
Why do all major types of racing use SS?
Summit Racing has no idea what they're talking about. Buncha idiot noobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLhj7L6CHs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLhj7L6CHs)
I'm sure there is a test method for testing brake feel. You could hook up a pneumatic cylinder in line with a transducer and graph the profile of force vs deflection.
I'm an engineer. I don't believe in voodoo.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on January 09, 2016, 02:26:00 PM
I'm sure there is a test method for testing brake feel. You could hook up a pneumatic cylinder in line with a transducer and graph the profile of force vs deflection.
I'm an engineer. I don't believe in voodoo.
What baseline do you set for a noticeable change? That's where subjectivity comes into play.
At worst, you won't notice a difference and you'll still have a stronger line with more protection from debris and heat. Plus, it's a new line vs. old line. I see no reason for Sporty not to upgrade. Cheap, easy, and quick, with good potential benefits (especially since he drives harder than the average joe and seems pretty sensitive to chassis systems).
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 12:27:07 PM
No one has ever done anything like that for any automotive part. :wtf:
Bullshit!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 01:53:50 PM
Summit Racing has no idea what they're talking about. Buncha idiot noobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLhj7L6CHs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLhj7L6CHs)
Buncha smart salesmen who know their audience. Notice that their number one reason is looks. :wtf:
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 04:16:39 PM
Buncha smart salesmen who know their audience. Notice that their number one reason is looks. :wtf:
That does nothing to invalidate the brake feel claim. Try again.
Not sure why some of you guys are on a witch hunt here.
LOL at this shit. Factory stuff is designed to make it through the warranty period with minimal cost and some degree of customer satisfaction. There are some designs that compromise something to achieve something else, there are other components that exceed the cost/performance ratio, others that don't. SS brake lines are a marginal benefit cost ratio item. How much money do you have?
:muffin:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 12:55:26 AM
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/ (http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-0909-brake-lines-upgrade/)
Quote
When testing volumetric expansion, Goodridge found that standard OE-type rubber brake hose expanded by 0.136 cc/ft at 1,000 psi, 0.150 cc/ft at 1,500 psi, and 0.290 cc/ft at 2,900 psi, whereas the company's PTFE braided stainless hoses expanded by only 0.0002932 cc/ft at 4,000 psi. The close-to-zero expansion to the braided hose means the brake pedal will feel firmer and will respond more quickly to brake pedal inputs, and if you've done any racing then you'll know that even a split-second faster response from the braking system can mean the difference between slowing enough to make the corner and finding yourself parked backward in the weeds.
Let's see, assuming those numbers are correct 0.1346 cc is about 2.5 drops of fluid, not a large amount by any accounting. How many CCs of brake fluid are displaced when one steps on the brakes?
I love that statement concerning quicker response to brake pedal inputs. If true, how much more quickly will the brakes be applied with SS brake lines; t1/100 or 2/100 of a second at the most? I assume it matters most when you have a situation when you really need to stand on the brakes. Those times translate into 1 or 2 feet of travel at 70 MPH. Better tires would have a much larger impact.
A problem that has manifested itself with the braided SS brake lines hasn't yet been mentioned here. There have been numerous cases of very small grit working through the braid and abrading the Teflon inner line. Added to that is the problem of the braid covered line continues to look sound while it may be deteriorating while conventional flexible brake line shows outward signs of deterioration.
Some other thoughts:
1. The people touting the virtues are mainly the people selling the product. On most car forums I've looked at the jury is still out.
2. Porsche, to the best of my knowledge use rubber flex lines on their racing applications. You'd have to ask them why, but I suspect the reason has nothing to do with cost.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 04:33:59 PM
That does nothing to invalidate the brake feel claim. Try again.
Not sure why some of you guys are on a witch hunt here.
OK, they didn't support their brake feel claim with... anything. Same error you've been making in this entire thread. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 04:32:38 PM
Prove me wrong.
Nah, I'll let that one go. However, lack of appropriate testing means one should be even more cautious and skeptical of claims of improvement, not that one should just believe the inadequate information that is available.
Quote from: CLKid on January 09, 2016, 04:55:10 PM
Let's see, assuming those numbers are correct 0.1346 cc is about 2.5 drops of fluid, not a large amount by any accounting. How many CCs of brake fluid are displaced when one steps on the brakes?
I love that statement concerning quicker response to brake pedal inputs. If true, how much more quickly will the brakes be applied with SS brake lines; t1/100 or 2/100 of a second at the most? I assume it matters most when you have a situation when you really need to stand on the brakes. Those times translate into 1 or 2 feet of travel at 70 MPH. Better tires would have a much larger impact.
A problem that has manifested itself with the braided SS brake lines hasn't yet been mentioned here. There have been numerous cases of very small grit working through the braid and abrading the Teflon inner line. Added to that is the problem of the braid covered line continues to look sound while it may be deteriorating while conventional flexible brake line shows outward signs of deterioration.
Some other thoughts:
1. The people touting the virtues are mainly the people selling the product. On most car forums I've looked at the jury is still out.
2. Porsche, to the best of my knowledge use rubber flex lines on their racing applications. You'd have to ask them why, but I suspect the reason has nothing to do with cost.
Good thing majority of quality SS lines have a clear plastic covering over the braid. Like mine do.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 01:52:37 PM
Didn't I already tell you to GTFO of here with your OEM BS?
Mass produced street cars aren't going to use SS for a variety of reasons, mostly revolving around cost and the scale of production. They also don't use SS hard line. OEM is NOT the king of performance, like you so foolishly believe.
Why do all major types of racing use SS?
So the GT3, GTR and F458 have concerns with cost and scaling production, whereas a college student working on the brakes of a ~45-year-old car does not?
997 GT3:
(http://i35.tinypic.com/16gjr7t.jpg)
GTR R35:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NVyMoVJ15DY/UecFwlc2xaI/AAAAAAAAAlk/0lAXErLrBzE/s1600/IMG_0350.jpg)
F458:
(http://ebay.html.atd-sportscars.com/img/1d13d498176b2ad3f8ec7fbb587bd8fa.jpg)
Your fundamental error is mistaking design for engineering.
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 04:16:39 PM
Buncha smart salesmen who know their audience. Notice that their number one reason is looks. :wtf:
How many brake systems (let alone cars) does Summit Racing design?
Exactly, and it's a good thing too, if that guy is representative. :lol:
Why do F1 cars use SS?
Do you imagine your car to be similar to an F1 car?
Jesus cripes this is entertaining.
Quote from: Rupert on January 09, 2016, 05:58:42 PM
Do you imagine your car to be similar to an F1 car?
Engineering is engineering.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 06:07:03 PM
Engineering is engineering.
SS lines are some of the last tech to finally trickle down! Maybe. Some day.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 06:07:03 PM
Engineering is engineering.
Engineering is different for different needs.
Camino u mite have to take the L on this one bro
So much arguing over $150 lines. :lol:
Sporty, your car, your money. At least it's not going to make your braking performance worse (I hope :mask: ).
Quote from: CLKid on January 09, 2016, 04:55:10 PM
Let's see, assuming those numbers are correct 0.1346 cc is about 2.5 drops of fluid, not a large amount by any accounting. How many CCs of brake fluid are displaced when one steps on the brakes?
Yes, let's use their numbers :high5:.
The average brake line seems to be ~0.125 in diameter, the average pad displacement seems to be ~0.25 in and the average hi-po brake system (Corvette, Camaro SS, Mustang GT, etc.) has 4 piston calipers...
The total amount of fluid displaced during full brake application is brake line cross section area * 0.25 in pad displacement * 4 pistons = pi * (0.125 in/2*2.54 cm/in)^2 * 0.25 in * 2.54 cm/in * 4 pistons = 0.201 cc of displaced fluid.
The total amount of expansion during full brake application is 0.1346 cc/ft @1000 psi * 1 ft/12 in * 0.25 in pad displacement = 0.0028 cc of expansion (note: a bit of Googling shows 1000 psi is about right for max brake system pressure).
The total % of expansion = 0.0028/0.201 = 1.4%.
As we know, there is mechanical advantage between brake pedal displacement and brake piston displacement; say 3 in pedal travel = 0.25 in pad displacement. If we take our 1.4% expansion and apply that to 3 in of pedal travel (not sure if it's exactly representative, but it's in the ballpark) we have 0.042 in or roughly a bit less than the thickness of a dime (0.053 in). Now add in relatively blunt vacuum assist, flex in calipers, heat in fluid and pads, even just the soles on shoes, etc., etc., and without a significantly more detailed analysis or case study, no one is going to convince me that factory "rubber" brake line flex is a factor for any driver of any factory car (ergo the use of "rubber" brake lines in $250,000+ ultra high performance cars).
This is probably not entirely right but it proves a point IMO - sure there is some "expansion" but it's lost in the noise of a bunch of other things that are going on.
Quote from: thecarnut on January 09, 2016, 07:37:04 PM
So much arguing over $150 lines. :lol:
Sporty, your car, your money. At least it's not going to make your braking performance worse (I hope :mask: ).
The ability of this forum to make an argument out of nothing is amazing sometimes.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 09, 2016, 07:48:55 PM
Yes, let's use their numbers :high5:.
The average brake line seems to be ~0.125 in diameter, the average pad displacement seems to be ~0.25 in and the average hi-po brake system (Corvette, Camaro SS, Mustang GT, etc.) has 4 piston calipers...
The total amount of fluid displaced during full brake application is brake line cross section area * 0.25 in pad displacement * 4 pistons = pi * (0.125 in/2*2.54 cm/in)^2 * 0.25 in * 2.54 cm/in * 4 pistons = 0.201 cc of displaced fluid.
The total amount of expansion during full brake application is 0.1346 cc/ft @1000 psi * 1 ft/12 in * 0.25 in pad displacement = 0.0028 cc of expansion (note: a bit of Googling shows 1000 psi is about right for max brake system pressure).
The total % of expansion = 0.0028/0.201 = 1.4%.
As we know, there is mechanical advantage between brake pedal displacement and brake piston displacement; say 3 in pedal travel = 0.25 in pad displacement. If we take our 1.4% expansion and apply that to 3 in of pedal travel (not sure if it's exactly representative, but it's in the ballpark) we have 0.042 in or roughly a bit less than the thickness of a dime (0.053 in). Now add in relatively blunt vacuum assist, flex in calipers, heat in fluid and pads, even just the soles on shoes, etc., etc., and without a significantly more detailed analysis or case study, no one is going to convince me that factory "rubber" brake line flex is a factor for any driver of any factory car (ergo the use of "rubber" brake lines in $250,000+ ultra high performance cars).
This is probably not entirely right but it proves a point IMO - sure there is some "expansion" but it's lost in the noise of a bunch of other things that are going on.
^ Thinking about it I don't think this is very correct. The entire flex line will see 1000 psi not just the 0.25 in displacement, but that doesn't wash either, because that nets 0.1346 cc for a foot of flex line which would equate to ~67% expansion (0.1346/0.201) or ~2" of pedal mush. Heck with it; all I know is there was any performance benefit $50k Camaros, $100k GTRs, and $250k Ferraris would have SS flex lines from the factory (and they do not).
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 09, 2016, 08:38:38 PM
Cougs?
I don't know, but I do know as much that the brake lines on a $5MM+ F1 car are not even remotely related to anything you can buy at Jegs or Summit or w/e.
Fuck this shit. I'm going with electric brakes. SS braided wires.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 09, 2016, 09:24:05 PM
I don't know, but I do know as much that the brake lines on a $5MM+ F1 car are not even remotely related to anything you can buy at Jegs or Summit or w/e.
They're...brake lines. Are they made out of T-Rex bones? Unicorn penis?
T Rex penis.
I think I am going to pass on the lines.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 11, 2016, 05:19:22 AM
I think I am going to pass on the lines.
AFTER ALL THIS?! :lol:
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 11, 2016, 04:10:12 PM
AFTER ALL THIS?! :lol:
Not ricey enough - have to be under the car to notice it.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 09, 2016, 07:48:55 PM
Yes, let's use their numbers :high5:.
The average brake line seems to be ~0.125 in diameter, the average pad displacement seems to be ~0.25 in and the average hi-po brake system (Corvette, Camaro SS, Mustang GT, etc.) has 4 piston calipers...
The total amount of fluid displaced during full brake application is brake line cross section area * 0.25 in pad displacement * 4 pistons = pi * (0.125 in/2*2.54 cm/in)^2 * 0.25 in * 2.54 cm/in * 4 pistons = 0.201 cc of displaced fluid.
The total amount of expansion during full brake application is 0.1346 cc/ft @1000 psi * 1 ft/12 in * 0.25 in pad displacement = 0.0028 cc of expansion (note: a bit of Googling shows 1000 psi is about right for max brake system pressure).
The total % of expansion = 0.0028/0.201 = 1.4%.
As we know, there is mechanical advantage between brake pedal displacement and brake piston displacement; say 3 in pedal travel = 0.25 in pad displacement. If we take our 1.4% expansion and apply that to 3 in of pedal travel (not sure if it's exactly representative, but it's in the ballpark) we have 0.042 in or roughly a bit less than the thickness of a dime (0.053 in). Now add in relatively blunt vacuum assist, flex in calipers, heat in fluid and pads, even just the soles on shoes, etc., etc., and without a significantly more detailed analysis or case study, no one is going to convince me that factory "rubber" brake line flex is a factor for any driver of any factory car (ergo the use of "rubber" brake lines in $250,000+ ultra high performance cars).
This is probably not entirely right but it proves a point IMO - sure there is some "expansion" but it's lost in the noise of a bunch of other things that are going on.
1/4" of brake pad travel would be huge.
But anyways; there's a difference in brake feel. Some people like it, some don't.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 07, 2016, 05:49:56 PM
I wanna get new, more aggressive pads.... can I keep my rotors? They don't judder. I wanna change my fluid and get SS lines too. Is DOT 5 too much for the street?
Yes, you can use your old rotors, and don't use DOT 5 for any reason. DOT 5.1, however, you can use.