RIP, Audi. It was nice knowing you. How do you say suicide in German? :tounge:
Audi Could Stop Introducing New ICE Vehicles In 2026
Audi has introduced an assortment of electric vehicles in the past few months – including the e-tron GT, Q4 e-tron and Q4 Sportback e-tron – and it appears the company will be going EV-only in the near future.
Citing comments by Audi CEO Markus Duesmann, Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung is reporting the automaker will stop introducing new vehicles with petrol and diesel engines in 2026.
Internal combustion engines will apparently stick around after that date, presumably in existing models, but they would eventually be phased out. There's no word on when specifically, but the publication says a "few years later [after 2026] there will only be electric cars."
The phase out of internal combustion engines will reportedly coincide with the elimination of hybrid powertrains. Citing the publication, Reuters reported "there would also no longer be any hybrid models" from 2026.
That remains unconfirmed, but a number of automakers are moving away from plug-in hybrids and fully embracing electric vehicles. However, some companies are committed to plug-in hybrids as they see them as a 'bridge to the future' as they believe consumers might not be ready to go fully electric quite yet.
We've reached out to Audi for comment, but it's worth noting the company has released a flurry of eco-friendly communications today. They focused on everything from expanding the use of renewable energy at charging stations in Europe to using artificial intelligence to maximize sustainability in their supply chain.
Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/06/audi-could-stop-introducing-new-ice-vehicles-in-2026/
Good
Hoping VW follows suit. The ID Space Vision looks cool
The death of the ICE is sad. I know it is inevitable, and in some ways it's good (not going to miss loud commercial diesel trucks, or fart-can 4-bangers) but so much of what makes cars interesting and engaging is the mechanical aspect to them. First goes the manual gearbox, then the engine all together.
My friend has a model 3. Great car for sure, and yes it is fast, but it's sterile and cold. I respect it immensely but I don't love it. It's hard to explain.
Lots of classics available for those who truly appreciate the era of I/C engines without all the nanny gadgets. Many are even affordable. As well, as long as there are I/C enthusiasts, there will always be specialty shops that can supply parts and service if/when necessary. Fuel might be a little pricy down the road.
Quote from: Submariner on June 26, 2021, 07:58:14 AM
The death of the ICE is sad. I know it is inevitable, and in some ways it's good (not going to miss loud commercial diesel trucks, or fart-can 4-bangers) but so much of what makes cars interesting and engaging is the mechanical aspect to them. First goes the manual gearbox, then the engine all together.
My friend has a model 3. Great car for sure, and yes it is fast, but it's sterile and cold. I respect it immensely but I don't love it. It's hard to explain.
This is why I like being a driving enthusiast rather than a car enthusiast. As long as the car behaves and responds in an enjoyable way I'm good with it. This is why for example I enjoy driving my wife's Sienna more than I enjoyed my Optima. Yea the Kia was faster.... but the chassis was shit. The Sienna is honestly better sorted. It's fun in the way only a Toyota minivan could be.
So when the EVs come I'll be fine. Cars are just a means to an end to me. It's very likely my next car will be electric
Sure, I get that, but part of the driving pleasure is the analog nature of the vehicle. The model 3 feels like I'm playing Forza. It's technically impressive but it isn't...engaging? I don't feel like I'm part of the car.
Quote from: Submariner on June 26, 2021, 07:58:14 AM
The death of the ICE is sad. I know it is inevitable, and in some ways it's good (not going to miss loud commercial diesel trucks, or fart-can 4-bangers) but so much of what makes cars interesting and engaging is the mechanical aspect to them. First goes the manual gearbox, then the engine all together.
My friend has a model 3. Great car for sure, and yes it is fast, but it's sterile and cold. I respect it immensely but I don't love it. It's hard to explain.
The death of the ICE is the death of the car. EVs are something else. Fine, it's what's going to happen, but I'm going to hold out as long as I can.
The death of ICE cars is a long way away. 3/4 of the population of the world, probably, lives in areas where EV as the dominant mode of personal transportation for those who can afford cars is not going to be available for several decades if that. All of Central and South America, All of Africa, and most countries in Asia outside of China, South Korea, and Japan. The infrastructure and electric grid are not robust enough to support it.
The U.S. is a very hard place to change attitudes and people don't take kindly to being told by the govt what to do. The individual states also have a lot of power to draw their own energy plans. Power supply and the forces that determine it in Texas is vastly different than California. Any private company can make any proclamation they want. They can always, in the words of Darth Vader, "alter the deal".
I remember at a wedding several years ago I was talking with a few cousins of mine who worked for techy start ups in California and one worked for Google. They were all about a decade younger than me. They were all telling me straight faced how cars would be mostly self driving in 20 years. I laughed at them and told them they were young and naive. One of my brother in laws is a CFO of a small company heavily invested in climate friendly sources of energy. He tells me in 10 years more than half of new car sales in the U.S. will be electric. I laugh at him as well. Look at EV as a percentage of market share in all 50 states. It is really really low in the majority of states. These are very big ships to steer and it will take a good long while before gasoline becomes scarce or prohibitively expensive. Not for 30 plus years I think. Probably more like 50 years.
Also this is not analagous to the replacement of the horse and buggy with the ICE. ICE is better as a mode of transportation in so many ways compared to the horse and buggy on paved roads. EV is not better than ICE in nearly as many ways. It's cleaner, a bit cheaper to operate and service, and quicker off the line. The cost of entry is significantly higher, it's a pain in the ass to drive long distances in, and it's fueling is significantly more cumbersome and time consuming. You can't just fuel anywhere at any time. There's planning involved particularly when on vacation.
All this talk of EVs is basically just limited to a few countries, mainly the United States, Canada, parts of Western Europe, Japan, South Korea and China.
THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO DRIVE CARS WITH INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES USING CHEAP AND READILY AVAILABLE OIL AND POWERING THEIR NATIONS WITH FOSSIL FUELS LIKE COAL AND GAS.
In regards to cars, ^this fact^ alone is one argument to invest in the efficient production of synthetic fuels.
I get that eventually EVs or Fuel Cell or something else will come along and replace the trustworthy ICE, but in my opinion EVs are just not ready for the majority of car owners.
They don't suit my speedy driving style on the highway in which their battery would be drained in no time and I would have to spend 45 minutes to an hour+ waiting for the damn thing to be charged to some reasonably high range figure - which again will be depleted in no time...
Also, I recently read a complaint from an EV driver in Germany who stated that the waiting lines at public EV chargers are by now a real thing. The construction of the EV infrastructure is slow here.
I'll still to the ICE for as long as possible, even if the Greenies have their way and rape us with 5 Euro per liter fuel prices.
Simple math also indicates the ICE will be around for a while and as usual the histrionics over its death and the death of all driving enjoyment are overblown.
There's 300M+ cars on the road in the US. If someone could flick a switch and make all ~15-17M new cars sold per year EVs you're still talking 15-20 years before all ICEs are gone. And realistically + obviously we are nowhere near that, and to be frank I'm not sure we ever will be.
First it was save the manuals, now this. Increasingly, being a car enthusiast seems to be about having a persecution complex.
Being a car enthusiast - even for EVs - is going to be tough. Because the ultimate goal of the global elites is to basically eradicate individual mobility.
Klaus Schwab of the World Economic Forum and his GREAT RESET openly propagates so-called SMART CITIES in which you don't own a car and your mobility is limited to public transportation, cycling, walking or so-called autonomous taxis.
https://www.weforum.org/projects/future-of-cities
Oh the horror. *shrugs and keeps kart & sim racing*
Also, it's a little weird for a dude who grew up with lots of Benzes to be complaining about the "elites". Let's keep the car subforums focused on cars.... there's plenty of other places to whine about politics
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2021, 11:20:27 AM
Simple math also indicates the ICE will be around for a while and as usual the histrionics over its death and the death of all driving enjoyment are overblown.
There's 300M+ cars on the road in the US. If someone could flick a switch and make all ~15-17M new cars sold per year EVs you're still talking 15-20 years before all ICEs are gone. And realistically + obviously we are nowhere near that, and to be frank I'm not sure we ever will be.
First it was save the manuals, now this. Increasingly, being a car enthusiast seems to be about having a persecution complex.
It's not about feeling persecuted. I have reasons why I lament the eventual loss of the ICE though I'd never color it as "persecution", but I would characterize it as "emotion".
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2021, 12:20:46 PM
Oh the horror. *shrugs and keeps kart & sim racing*
Also, it's a little weird for a dude who grew up with lots of Benzes to be complaining about the "elites". Let's keep the car subforums focused on cars.... there's plenty of other places to whine about politics
The goal of the Great Reset is to radically change our way of life into a type of eco[terror] socialism / communism. That weirdo Klaus Schwab makes it perfectly clear in his book on how he envisions the future. We are not supposed to own anything and still be happy. Look it up, it's one of his most cited phrases from his book.
Klaus Schwab, another German screwing the world after Hitler and Merkel...
A Mercedes EQS, or Tesla S Plaid is eco terrorism/socialism? Can you try to remain at least somewhat logical, and rational.
Wimmer can you please stop torturing us with your political rants.......... I dont want to put you on ignore
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 26, 2021, 09:36:41 AM
Lots of classics available for those who truly appreciate the era of I/C engines without all the nanny gadgets. Many are even affordable. As well, as long as there are I/C enthusiasts, there will always be specialty shops that can supply parts and service if/when necessary. Fuel might be a little pricy down the road.
I can tell you haven't looked at classic car prices lately. Its stupid- An AMC Matador; one of the least desirable vehicles ever, just went for over $20,000.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 27, 2021, 07:19:52 AM
I can tell you haven't looked at classic car prices lately. Its stupid- An AMC Matador; one of the least desirable vehicles ever, just went for over $20,000.
Was it a Matador 2-door w/401 V8 and maybe even a 4sp M/T? If low miles/great shape, $20k+ seems reasonable.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 27, 2021, 07:19:52 AM
I can tell you haven't looked at classic car prices lately. Its stupid- An AMC Matador; one of the least desirable vehicles ever, just went for over $20,000.
Granted, the prices are continuously rising, but there are still some affordable classics for the enthusiast who wants a project.
Example...
1966 Ford Thunderbird all original, 390 engine, new tires, all power windows, new vinyl top, car runs great, $$11,2501966 FORD THUNDERBIRD (https://www.allcollectorcars.com/for-sale/1966-Ford-Thunderbird-/2472182/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CgsxCrb/5202031294040556.jpg)
Many others.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 27, 2021, 05:45:30 AM
Wimmer can you please stop torturing us with your political rants.......... I dont want to put you on ignore
Okie dokie!
Quote from: GoCougs on June 27, 2021, 08:11:36 AM
Was it a Matador 2-door w/401 V8 and maybe even a 4sp M/T? If low miles/great shape, $20k+ seems reasonable.
automatic- in good shape, sure. But a Matador anyways.
Hate to break it to you ICE guys, but this is the future of classic cars.
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
I got back into VWs, aircooled VWs, because of the ease of converting them to electric. It was predicted in the early 90s that classic cars running fossil fuels would be off the roads by 2000. It never happened, but I enjoyed the VWs regardless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMaG-1KmoDw&t=25s
Something something no driving enjoyment or "soul" something something
I've been on a track in a Taycan Turbo. To me the driving experience was fantastic. The chassis was Porsche good. The throttle is perfectly linear. The lack of exhaust let's you hear exactly what all 4 tires are doing. It's a driving instructors dream for teaching driving dynamics.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 30, 2021, 06:40:30 PM
Something something no driving enjoyment or "soul" something something
You really don't see the difference between an electric motor and a high revving flat 6 + six speed?
Quote from: Submariner on July 01, 2021, 07:11:12 AM
You really don't see the difference between an electric motor and a high revving flat 6 + six speed?
I do, I just don't think it's meaningful in any practical way. Nobody on CarSPIN has said powerplant. Raza did for a while
and he got rid of it. So what tangibly changes for anyone here, or the vast majority of car guys who don't have F6 + 6s in their cars, if that powerplant ceases to exist? You can still love the idea/dream of them.
A way more relevant comparison is between electric motors and turbo 4 bangers. Between those two, give me the EV 8 days a week.
And FWIW the last car I test drove was a 996 6MT (ah I'm lying.... it was a Q50. The 996 was right before that). It had its pluses and minuses and did everything it was supposed to do, but overall I didn't like it. Car guys get way too entangled and invested in dogma and preconceptions rather than approaching things with an open mind and no expectations. It's detrimental to our enjoyment of cars- especially in the context of the impending shift in the landscape.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 01, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
Car guys get way too entangled and invested in dogma and preconceptions rather than approaching things with an open mind and no expectations.
A healthy dosage of skepticism never hurt anyone.
Eventually the ICE will mostly disappear in the hysterical virtue-signaling Western World. EVs are in my opinion still not ready for the mass market given current battery technology and the lack of and incredibly slow expansion of their necessary infrastructure.
I have to admit that a lot of the VW Beetle love is exemplified by the first part of that video I posted when the Beetle is driven into the garage. Nothing sounds like an air-cooled Beetle. It really adds to the experience of driving one. This is really true when the Beetle has the factory twin pipes and makes that "whistling" noise showing it is tuned correctly.
Quote from: JWC on July 02, 2021, 04:41:10 AM
I have to admit that a lot of the VW Beetle love is exemplified by the first part of that video I posted when the Beetle is driven into the garage. Nothing sounds like an air-cooled Beetle. It really adds to the experience of driving one. This is really true when the Beetle has the factory twin pipes and makes that "whistling" noise showing it is tuned correctly.
Air cooler is cool for a little while, but too finnicky for a daily driver IMO. I'd love to convert an early Super to electric. Add AC and a heater and it'd be a much better commuter.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 02, 2021, 10:35:02 AM
Air cooler is cool for a little while, but too finnicky for a daily driver IMO. I'd love to convert an early Super to electric. Add AC and a heater and it'd be a much better commuter.
I drove one for two years to work and back, and 70 miles to and from the beach every other weekend. If you change the oil, check the point gap, and check the valve adjustment every 3K it will go forever. While that sounds like a lot of work and money, it isn't really. The whole thing takes 2.6qts oil and a gasket kit and 30 minutes. A co-worker drove his 120 miles to work (60 miles each way) for 12 years before the dealership closed. He did go through a couple of motors. He'd have a long block delivered to the dealership and swap the motor after work. Takes about an hour.
Probably one of the most enjoyable vehicles to get your driving and mechanic's groove.
Quote from: JWC on July 02, 2021, 11:48:37 AM
I drove one for two years to work and back, and 70 miles to and from the beach every other weekend. If you change the oil, check the point gap, and check the valve adjustment every 3K it will go forever. While that sounds like a lot of work and money, it isn't really. The whole thing takes 2.6qts oil and a gasket kit and 30 minutes. A co-worker drove his 120 miles to work (60 miles each way) for 12 years before the dealership closed. He did go through a couple of motors. He'd have a long block delivered to the dealership and swap the motor after work. Takes about an hour.
Probably one of the most enjoyable vehicles to get your driving and mechanic's groove.
Do they make hydraulic lifters for them? That would be awesome to not worry about valve adjustments all the time.
My El Camino with it's SBC with hydraulic lifters and single Edelbrock carb is nice, since you tune it once and it holds the tune for a very long time. Dual Webers are more finnicky, and it seems like smaller engines and carbs are much more sensitive to temperature and air density. My '78 GS550 was always more finnicky as well, with it's tiny quad carb setup.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 02, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Do they make hydraulic lifters for them? That would be awesome to not worry about valve adjustments all the time.
My El Camino with it's SBC with hydraulic lifters and single Edelbrock carb is nice, since you tune it once and it holds the tune for a very long time. Dual Webers are more finnicky, and it seems like smaller engines and carbs are much more sensitive to temperature and air density. My '78 GS550 was always more finnicky as well, with it's tiny quad carb setup.
They were available at one time, but required different heads IIRC. The hardest part of keeping one running right was balancing the carbs if you converted it to dual. I kept the Solex on mine. There was a company selling FI kits for air-cooled also.
Edit: Still around @ $350.
https://www.mofoco.com/item/Mofoco_Type_1_Hydraulic_Cam_and_Lifter_Kit/693/c143
Nice! It's too bad my dad just installed a new engine in a friend's '66. Probably could have used that kit.
I just texted him and they actually got the new engine from Mofoco. But they didn't recommend the hydraulic lifters due to the camshaft options. The engine they were getting was better off with one of their other cam and lifters
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 02, 2021, 02:37:49 PM
I just texted him and they actually got the new engine from Mofoco. But they didn't recommend the hydraulic lifters due to the camshaft options. The engine they were getting was better off with one of their other cam and lifters
It is such a simple procedure to adjust the valves, I never considered that route.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 02, 2021, 04:23:54 AM
A healthy dosage of skepticism never hurt anyone.
Eventually the ICE will mostly disappear in the hysterical virtue-signaling Western World. EVs are in my opinion still not ready for the mass market given current battery technology and the lack of and incredibly slow expansion of their necessary infrastructure.
There's a pretty clear distinction between healthy skepticism and rigid dogma. EVs are part of some bigger conspiracy to you so it's impossible for you to be objective or reasonable about them.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 02, 2021, 04:01:19 PM
There's a pretty clear distinction between healthy skepticism and rigid dogma. EVs are part of some bigger conspiracy to you so it's impossible for you to be objective or reasonable about them.
My problem with EVs is that, aside from not being ready for the masses, they're being mainly pushed by politics
INSTEAD of the market. Politicians are telling us what we should drive.
Let the market innovate and let buyers decide what they want to drive. Innovation is the key. I see potential for the ICE, Fuel-Cell and EVs, but it will take time. Once again, let the market innovate. Maybe techniques will be invented in which the production of synthetic carbon-free fuels can be sped up yielding more liters while using less energy? Maybe the efficiency of ICEs can be further improved? Let the engineers get creative and figure it out.
Also, everyone is always talking about sustainability - what's better for the environment and sustainability
than continuing to drive your old or new ICE car for 10-15 years. That's less damaging for the environment than completely switching to EVs. Synthetic fuels are the key here. And yes, they require large amounts of energy to produce, but there is a solid argument for them; the rest of the world (aka the vast majority) will continue to use ICE cars.
By the way, one gas station in Munich recently introduced a new synthetic Diesel fuel called
Diesel Protect 25. It's mixed with fossil fuel-derived Diesel and thus reduces CO2 emissions by 25% while also burning cleaner and resulting in less emissions. This is the way to go (for now) in my opinion. Synthetic carbon-free fuels, to keep the ICE and our mobility alive until something better, affordable and sustainable comes along (which IMO are not EVs at this point in time).
https://www.lifepr.de/inaktiv/mobil-in-deutschland-ev/Der-sauberste-Diesel-in-Muenchen/boxid/855019
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 01, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
I do, I just don't think it's meaningful in any practical way. Nobody on CarSPIN has said powerplant. Raza did for a while and he got rid of it. So what tangibly changes for anyone here, or the vast majority of car guys who don't have F6 + 6s in their cars, if that powerplant ceases to exist? You can still love the idea/dream of them.
A way more relevant comparison is between electric motors and turbo 4 bangers. Between those two, give me the EV 8 days a week.
And FWIW the last car I test drove was a 996 6MT (ah I'm lying.... it was a Q50. The 996 was right before that). It had its pluses and minuses and did everything it was supposed to do, but overall I didn't like it. Car guys get way too entangled and invested in dogma and preconceptions rather than approaching things with an open mind and no expectations. It's detrimental to our enjoyment of cars- especially in the context of the impending shift in the landscape.
I've talked about the benefits of EV for some time. I've even been called a Tesla shill on here and Reddit before lol. I'm certainly not opposed to them. I just happen to think that, as they exist today, are too sterile and digital for my liking. I feel like I'm being driven around rather than driving. I feel like I'm playing Gran Turismo, not an actual car. I respect them (well, at least the Tesla S and 3) but I'm not in love with them.
As for your 996 experience - the 996 was a dud IMO. A 997 S is infinitely more satisfying to drive.
That's a Tesla thing not an EV thing. Other EVs feel like normal cars and the Taycan feels like driving a Porsche according to those who have driven one
Left remotely to its own devices, the market says ~20 more years (and it's already been ~10 years). Also remember it's been ~20 years and the (somewhat distorted) market tells us nobody really buys an everymany hybrid that isn't a Toyota.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 02, 2021, 07:28:18 PM
My problem with EVs is that, aside from not being ready for the masses, they're being mainly pushed by politics INSTEAD of the market. Politicians are telling us what we should drive.
Let the market innovate and let buyers decide what they want to drive. Innovation is the key. I see potential for the ICE, Fuel-Cell and EVs, but it will take time. Once again, let the market innovate. Maybe techniques will be invented in which the production of synthetic carbon-free fuels can be sped up yielding more liters while using less energy? Maybe the efficiency of ICEs can be further improved? Let the engineers get creative and figure it out.
Also, everyone is always talking about sustainability - what's better for the environment and sustainability
than continuing to drive your old or new ICE car for 10-15 years. That's less damaging for the environment than completely switching to EVs. Synthetic fuels are the key here. And yes, they require large amounts of energy to produce, but there is a solid argument for them; the rest of the world (aka the vast majority) will continue to use ICE cars.
By the way, one gas station in Munich recently introduced a new synthetic Diesel fuel called Diesel Protect 25. It's mixed with fossil fuel-derived Diesel and thus reduces CO2 emissions by 25% while also burning cleaner and resulting in less emissions. This is the way to go (for now) in my opinion. Synthetic carbon-free fuels, to keep the ICE and our mobility alive until something better, affordable and sustainable comes along (which IMO are not EVs at this point in time).
https://www.lifepr.de/inaktiv/mobil-in-deutschland-ev/Der-sauberste-Diesel-in-Muenchen/boxid/855019
Wim respectfully a lot of this is just dead wrong
The market would not have "innovated" emissions controls without govt intervention. They do nothing for performance or efficiency but they do a hell of a lot for reducing tailpipe pollutants. A lot of car companies were not ready to put those controls in place. But eventually we got over it and air quality improved. EVs are a bigger challenge but I think we will also get over it.
Buying a new EV is def cleaner than staying in an ICEV if you have relatively clean electricity. I think even electricity made from natural gas is cleaner than gasoline within a few years.
If you think gas or electricity is expensive it's crazy to suggest synthetic fuels. It makes way more environmental sense to just put that energy into EV production and charging. Etc. I get being skeptical but a lot of what you say is just flat out wrong dude
Quote from: Submariner on July 02, 2021, 07:59:28 PM
I've talked about the benefits of EV for some time. I've even been called a Tesla shill on here and Reddit before lol. I'm certainly not opposed to them. I just happen to think that, as they exist today, are too sterile and digital for my liking. I feel like I'm being driven around rather than driving. I feel like I'm playing Gran Turismo, not an actual car. I respect them (well, at least the Tesla S and 3) but I'm not in love with them.
As for your 996 experience - the 996 was a dud IMO. A 997 S is infinitely more satisfying to drive.
Don't knock sim racing until you give it an honest shake. I honestly enjoy it more than street driving.
(https://i.postimg.cc/34GvBHz6/20210703-222849.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34GvBHz6)
And a 996 is still a damn Porsche 911. Hardly a bad drive. I test drove other sports cars as well. I'm nonplussed. I'd rather push a virtual car or go kart at the limit than tool around on public roads at 3/10ths (which most enthusiast think is like 8/10ths). After taking my bike to the track my interest in street driving/riding has been slowly dripping to nothing. IT's meh regardless of the car to me
I've driven both. My dad had a 997 S at one point - 6-speed, Sport Chrono, PASM, the works. A 996 is a vastly lesser car, at least in non-turbo or GT3 trim (I've only driven a base model 996).
I've toyed around with the idea of a racing rig for a while. It is especially intriguing to me now because my toddler loves driving (she has a Mercedes Zetros power wheels and likes watching dash cam lap videos) and it could be a lot of fun, especially as she gets older. But it's also a big investment and if I'm going to get a gaming PC I'm going to build it, not buy some overpriced, low-rent-component prebuilt garbage so that means I need to re-familiarize myself with building PCs and that is something that I haven't a lot of time for...
I see the issue of ICE vs. EV as a bit like mechanical vs. digital watches. Digital is obviously better (my wife's Apple Watch is indeed a neat piece of tech, and it has some amazing features, and it's built very well, etc) but I'm just drawn to a nice mechanical watch. It's purely emotional but it's meaningful.
I mean, the 997 being better than the 996 doesn't make the 996 bad. Once you get into that hedonistic treadmill way of thinking everything south of a McLaren F1 will suck. In a world of CR-Vs and F150s a base 996 is a great driver's car, period.
There's some level of risk in building a sim rig and hating it, but IMO if you really love driving that won't be the case. And if you are pressed for time, a rig is going to have a much higher ROI on time than a fun car. If you're still in NYC just getting out of the city to decent roads and back will take hours. Outside of loading time time on a rig is pretty much all fun. Obviously the physicality and sensations don't compare to a real car, but IMO sitting in traffic in a real car isn't that fun either.
Now if it's all about the possession of an important car or the physical sensations..... eh. I guess a rig won't work. But you won't really know until you try it. If you were local I'd happily give you a demo.
And I get exactly what we are giving up from going from ICEs to EVs. We are definitely losing some important intangibles. But it's inevitable, so we might as well try to look at the positives of EVs. Personally IDGAF about 1000HP+ anythings, but the fact that the Model 3 is within the same weight range as its ICE competition clears one dynamic hurdle. I'm going to wait to see what car companies do with EVs before writing them off. Different <> bad.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 03, 2021, 08:34:17 PM
The market would not have "innovated" emissions controls without govt intervention. They do nothing for performance or efficiency but they do a hell of a lot for reducing tailpipe pollutants. A lot of car companies were not ready to put those controls in place. But eventually we got over it and air quality improved. EVs are a bigger challenge but I think we will also get over it.
Buyers would eventually have demanded cleaner cars anyway due to the known harmful effects of vehicle emissions and car makers would have to react.
I gotta ask, if EVs are so amazing, then why do they need government subsidies to sell at all? Yes, I get that the infrastructure is not yet there, but a product that does not sell on its own merits can't be that good or ready.
Advances will come sooner or later, but at the moment EVs to me are a niche product, usable mostly inside cities, but they lack the flexibility which any ICE car offers, especially in regards to quick refueling and range.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 03, 2021, 08:34:17 PMBuying a new EV is def cleaner than staying in an ICEV if you have relatively clean electricity. I think even electricity made from natural gas is cleaner than gasoline within a few years.
Personally I don't care if the electricity I use is from coal, nuclear, solar, hydro or wind - I just want it to be affordable. And here in Germany we have the highest electricity prices in the Western world thanks to Merkel's idiotic energy change policies. What a disaster.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 03, 2021, 08:34:17 PMIf you think gas or electricity is expensive it's crazy to suggest synthetic fuels. It makes way more environmental sense to just put that energy into EV production and charging. Etc. I get being skeptical but a lot of what you say is just flat out wrong dude.
There is still a solid argument for synthetic fuels. Who cares if it is made using excess renewable energy? In this idiot European nation called GerMoney, we're so stupid and pay our neighbors to take our excess renewable energy from solar and wind. That energy could be used to produce hydrogen or synthetic fuels for example. It's at least a start.
The good news is that the conservative political parties of this country are actually looking into the production of synthetic fuels for two reasons. The first is so that the mobility of millions of motorists in this country can be preserved. Because not everyone can afford an EV (or wants one). The second reason, if we perfect the production of synthetic fuel (economies of scale, high yield using less energy etc.), we could also become an exporter of this product. There were several livestreams talking about these plans which I followed a few months ago. Very interesting stuff and I totally agree with it.
Also, what good will it do if the Western World switches to EVs while the rest of the world continues to drive ICE without catalytic converters, DPFs etc. and use cheap and readily available fossil fuels? Oh wait, I just answered my own question! There is ZERO INCENTIVE for countries with vast amounts of oil reserves (Russia, several African nations, The Middle East, Southeast Asian nations, Venezuela etc.) to switch over to EVs. With the Western World using less oil, it will become cheaper on the world market thus giving developing nations even less incentives to switch over to EVs.
Another thing: this whole environmentalism gaga ideology is something which is primarily found in developed (aka "wealthy nations"). In poorer countries people have other priorities and "going green" and "saving the planet" isn't one of them. That means you can't suddenly expect motorists in those nations to drive EVs. They can't afford it and they don't see the point.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AM
Buyers would eventually have demanded cleaner cars anyway due to the known harmful effects of vehicle emissions and car makers would have to react.
I gotta ask, if EVs are so amazing, then why do they need government subsidies to sell at all? Yes, I get that the infrastructure is not yet there, but a product that does not sell on its own merits can't be that good or ready.
Major corporations/manufacturers in this era are less inclined to invest in research and development. They're primarily concerned about their bottom line and how much return their investors get. Investors will find a better deal if manufacturers invest too much in R & D.
As most new technologies, including synthetic fuels, require a lot of up front costs, the only way they get the necessary research funding is through government grants, either directly or indirectly.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 05, 2021, 11:03:43 AM
Major corporations/manufacturers in this era are less inclined to invest in research and development. They're primarily concerned about their bottom line and how much return their investors get. Investors will find a better deal if manufacturers invest too much in R & D.
As most new technologies, including synthetic fuels, require a lot of up front costs, the only way they get the necessary research funding is through government grants, either directly or indirectly.
But keep in mind how car companies these days are so quick and sensitive to react to social concerns and be totally...
"Woke".
BLM? They suddenly start using more people of color (or so-called minorities) in their advertising. LGBTQ? They change their logos in the rainbow color on their social media and website platforms (except in The Middle East). Gender gaga? Audi in Germany now demands that their employees use this idiotic gender language (Audi*ianner / Audi*innen / Audi_in or something like that, totally dumb...).
If people wanted cleaner cars then they would have no choice but to react. It's in their best interest. The R&D money spent here can easily be seen as an investment. It would be suicidal for any company these days to ignore environmental and health concerns because they'll get blasted for it by the press and society (makes you wonder why people are not up in arms over the destructive raw material/mineral mining needed for EV batteries...).
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AM
Buyers would eventually have demanded cleaner cars anyway due to the known harmful effects of vehicle emissions and car makers would have to react.
They did through govt regulation
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMI gotta ask, if EVs are so amazing, then why do they need government subsidies to sell at all? Yes, I get that the infrastructure is not yet there, but a product that does not sell on its own merits can't be that good or ready.
Same reason govts subsidized stuff like transistor development, infrastructure etc. Private industry is concerned with turning fast profit. Some good ideas need more time to develop. Subsidizing EV sales helps further their development to commercial viability.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-motors-ev-ultium-battery-electric-future/
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMAdvances will come sooner or later, but at the moment EVs to me are a niche product, usable mostly inside cities, but they lack the flexibility which any ICE car offers, especially in regards to quick refueling and range.
Advances are coming a lot faster thanks to the subsidies.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMPersonally I don't care if the electricity I use is from coal, nuclear, solar, hydro or wind - I just want it to be affordable. And here in Germany we have the highest electricity prices in the Western world thanks to Merkel's idiotic energy change policies. What a disaster.
EVs are cheaper to charge than ICEVs are to fuel. The ID3 for example costs nearly 2 EUR less per 100km than a diesel Golf. So if you want cheaper transportation an EV is a better bet.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMThere is still a solid argument for synthetic fuels. Who cares if it is made using excess renewable energy? In this idiot European nation called GerMoney, we're so stupid and pay our neighbors to take our excess renewable energy from solar and wind. That energy could be used to produce hydrogen or synthetic fuels for example. It's at least a start.
The good news is that the conservative political parties of this country are actually looking into the production of synthetic fuels for two reasons. The first is so that the mobility of millions of motorists in this country can be preserved. Because not everyone can afford an EV (or wants one). The second reason, if we perfect the production of synthetic fuel (economies of scale, high yield using less energy etc.), we could also become an exporter of this product. There were several livestreams talking about these plans which I followed a few months ago. Very interesting stuff and I totally agree with it.
Again this is all well and good if you can make it affordably. So far it doesn't look possible. And if it can't be made from renewables it's pointless. The whole point is to reduce carbon emissions.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMAlso, what good will it do if the Western World switches to EVs while the rest of the world continues to drive ICE without catalytic converters, DPFs etc. and use cheap and readily available fossil fuels? Oh wait, I just answered my own question! There is ZERO INCENTIVE for countries with vast amounts of oil reserves (Russia, several African nations, The Middle East, Southeast Asian nations, Venezuela etc.) to switch over to EVs. With the Western World using less oil, it will become cheaper on the world market thus giving developing nations even less incentives to switch over to EVs.
This is like saying if one person throws trash on the floor then we all should. Nonsense. Not to mention auto companies are going all EV globally, so those oil countries will have to change to EVs regardless.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 05, 2021, 07:35:01 AMAnother thing: this whole environmentalism gaga ideology is something which is primarily found in developed (aka "wealthy nations"). In poorer countries people have other priorities and "going green" and "saving the planet" isn't one of them. That means you can't suddenly expect motorists in those nations to drive EVs. They can't afford it and they don't see the point.
Still not seeing why it has to be all or none. If 75% of the world moves to EVs that's not as good as 100% obviously but it's way better than 0%.
I agree that there are some real challenges and hurdles but all your arguments are in bad faith.......... you have your mind made up that the left and anything associated with it is bad so everything you say comes from that rather than any kind of objective or logical standpoint. Every point you make is wrong and super easy to shoot down.
12,000 RPM,
There's the mentality aspect of the rest of the world. Protecting the environment ist not a real concern for the governments and the people of poorer or so-called developing nations. People there have other priorities: surviving. Going Green costs money and is expensive for everyone.
Even if car companies are forced to go the EV route (and they are being forced by the government, not the market), this just means that those nations not jumping on the climate hysteria train will simply keep their current ICE cars and keep them running like they do with 1950s American cars in Cuba. Less demand for oil in the West means cheaper fuel for them. Yay!
Look, I am not against EVs, but I just don't feel they are ready for MY NEEDS. I like the flexibility of my ICE car. Hell, I grew up with ICE cars like you. I appreciate their stable range and the ability to quickly refuel them and get on with my trip. Range is important to me because I like driving fast. Driving fast requires a lot of energy and this is currently one of the Achilles Heels of every EV. When there is an EV that has a guaranteed range of say 500 km no matter how hard I push the pedal to the metal, then I might finally show some interest. Quick recharging without damaging the battery in the long run also needs to be solved.
I think the small gasoline engine market (say on lawn mowers or garden tractors) shows what automobile engine development would have been if left to the free market... Basically stagnant for 60 years
Quote from: r0tor on July 08, 2021, 08:39:39 AM
I think the small gasoline engine market (say on lawn mowers or garden tractors) shows what automobile engine development would have been if left to the free market... Basically stagnant for 60 years
What's your explanation for ICE engine and power train development from the Model T up through the early '70s, and correspondingly profound improvements in power, efficiency and longevity (i.e., environmental improvements all), from increased CRs and VE%, to more efficient transmissions, to radial tires, to more precise fuel metering to electronic ignition?
As to lawn equipment, you want take out these huge mortgages to build overly-large houses with expansive yards, do you have really have the coin to afford a fuel-injected, sensor-riddled, ECU-controlled lawnmower to maintain these expanses of environmentally unfriendly non-native if not invasive species of grass and plants?
EvironmentalismbeginsathomeSPIN.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 08, 2021, 10:30:07 AM
As to lawn equipment, you want take out these huge mortgages to build overly-large houses with expansive yards, do you have really have the coin to afford a fuel-injected, sensor-riddled, ECU-controlled lawnmower to maintain these expanses of environmentally unfriendly non-native if not invasive species of grass and plants?
EvironmentalismbeginsathomeSPIN.
I can't speak for others, but I just bought a new electric lawn mower. :lol:
When I left Cali, there was talk of a legislative bill for Catalytic converters for motorcycles and lawnmowers.
Did that ever happen?
Quote from: GoCougs on July 08, 2021, 10:30:07 AM
What's your explanation for ICE engine and power train development from the Model T up through the early '70s, and correspondingly profound improvements in power, efficiency and longevity (i.e., environmental improvements all), from increased CRs and VE%, to more efficient transmissions, to radial tires, to more precise fuel metering to electronic ignition?
As to lawn equipment, you want take out these huge mortgages to build overly-large houses with expansive yards, do you have really have the coin to afford a fuel-injected, sensor-riddled, ECU-controlled lawnmower to maintain these expanses of environmentally unfriendly non-native if not invasive species of grass and plants?
EvironmentalismbeginsathomeSPIN.
Right... So garden tractor motors evolved with automobile engines for 60 years. Then suddenly 1 stopped evolving...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 01, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
I do, I just don't think it's meaningful in any practical way. Nobody on CarSPIN has said powerplant. Raza did for a while and he got rid of it. So what tangibly changes for anyone here, or the vast majority of car guys who don't have F6 + 6s in their cars, if that powerplant ceases to exist? You can still love the idea/dream of them.
A way more relevant comparison is between electric motors and turbo 4 bangers. Between those two, give me the EV 8 days a week.
And FWIW the last car I test drove was a 996 6MT (ah I'm lying.... it was a Q50. The 996 was right before that). It had its pluses and minuses and did everything it was supposed to do, but overall I didn't like it. Car guys get way too entangled and invested in dogma and preconceptions rather than approaching things with an open mind and no expectations. It's detrimental to our enjoyment of cars- especially in the context of the impending shift in the landscape.
I still have my Z4. I do plan on replacing it soon, but with another car with a 6 speed manual and an inline 6.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 08, 2021, 11:39:12 AM
I can't speak for others, but I just bought a new electric lawn mower. :lol:
Let me guess; you can mow 1/4th of your lawn per day, then need to charge the damn thing for 24 hours... :devil: :devil: :devil:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 09, 2021, 04:01:02 AM
Let me guess; you can mow 1/4th of your lawn per day, then need to charge the damn thing for 24 hours... :devil: :devil: :devil:
Nope, works great. Way lighter/quieter than my older (also electric) lawnmower. When I see people using gas lawn mowers I feel bad for them. :lol:
When I worked in Canada ~10 years ago we had one ICE forklift and one electric forklift. As someone recently trained on how to drive a forklift I thought the electric forklift was so much easier to use than the ICe version. Smoother, more precise, quieter,...no downside that I could see. But like cars, the guys who were used to the older (propane) gas powered forklifts swore up and down that the electric one was inferior. The only downside was that yeah...the electric forklift needed to be charged where as the gas forklift you could just swap out the propane tank. But in every other way the electric was superior. Its funny how people just don't like to change.
FWIW, our company only uses electric forklifts nowadays (leased from Toyota, FWIW).
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 08, 2021, 11:39:12 AM
I can't speak for others, but I just bought a new electric lawn mower. :lol:
What did you get? I might be looking at getting one in the spring. I have a connection at one of the big lawn mower companies, but I'm curious how you like it. I didn't even consider an electric mower until I looked the other week at what's out there. The electric ones all seem to have plenty of capacity to finish the yard on a single charge. The reduced maintenance and noise is really appealing.
I bought an "eGo" model from lowes. It seemed to have good reviews. I bought a 56 volt mower with a 5.0ah battery. There was a more expensive version with a 7.5ah battery but this one seems fine, and I figured I could always buy a second battery if one battery wasn't enough. As it turns out one battery is fine. The battery itself takes about 45 minutes to go from really low to full, so in concept 2 batteries could last indefinitely.
Charging the battery definitely seems nice than refilling a little gas can every couple of months. I'll probably look at electric mowers when we move and have a yard
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 09, 2021, 05:49:40 AM
Nope, works great. Way lighter/quieter than my older (also electric) lawnmower. When I see people using gas lawn mowers I feel bad for them. :lol:
When I worked in Canada ~10 years ago we had one ICE forklift and one electric forklift. As someone recently trained on how to drive a forklift I thought the electric forklift was so much easier to use than the ICe version. Smoother, more precise, quieter,...no downside that I could see. But like cars, the guys who were used to the older (propane) gas powered forklifts swore up and down that the electric one was inferior. The only downside was that yeah...the electric forklift needed to be charged where as the gas forklift you could just swap out the propane tank. But in every other way the electric was superior. Its funny how people just don't like to change.
FWIW, our company only uses electric forklifts nowadays (leased from Toyota, FWIW).
For indoor forklifts EVs actually make more sense mainly because of emissions. It would not be financially feasible to equip these things with catalytic converters etc. to clean the emissions.
Good thing I don't need a lawnmower - I don't have a garden (and don't want one). :ohyeah:
Good thing Porsche and the industry are placing some faith in synthetic fuels. There are solid arguments for them - one of them being fleet sustainability. It's better for the planet to continue to drive ICE cars which have already been produced and run them on synthetic carbon-free gasoline/Diesel.
But wait, they need so much energy in order to be produced! This is why Porsche is looking at producing these fuels in Chile. Chile has an abundance of wind and solar energy which enables them to produce 130,000 liters of synthetic fuel until the end of 2021. By 2026, they could essentially produce 500 million liters of synthetic fuel.
This is good news for us ICE fans. Let's face it, sports cars are more exciting and emotional with ICE than an electric motor (IMO).
Link: https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article232093735/E-Fuels-Synthetische-Kraftstoffe-Die-letzte-Hoffnung-fuer-den-Verbrenner.html
Their synthetic fuel program is to offer a way to keep their customers vintage Porsches on the road. It's not even close to something that would be mass marketed.
It's more like still being able to buy leaded gasoline to keep your 1950s car running for small trips.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 09, 2021, 08:21:19 AM
Charging the battery definitely seems nice than refilling a little gas can every couple of months. I'll probably look at electric mowers when we move and have a yard
If I had a lawn and I didn't pay someone to mow it, I'd probably go electric too, just for that issue alone. Easier to use, no transporting gas in my car, no stinky gas hands.
Quote from: r0tor on July 09, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
Their synthetic fuel program is to offer a way to keep their customers vintage Porsches on the road. It's not even close to something that would be mass marketed.
It's more like still being able to buy leaded gasoline to keep your 1950s car running for small trips.
Porsche admits that initially this is to keep the iconic current and future 911s alive - with an ICE. The 911 is about driving pleasure and emotions - and this is where an ICE shines over an EV all day any day.
But several industry leaders - in the article - have stated that synthetic fuels are useful and quick way to lower our carbon emissions. They state that countries with an abundance of sun and wind are ideal places to set up wind and solar power plants which can provide the energy needed to produce synthetic fuel and hydrogen. The overall efficiency of synthetic fuels is at around 15% and hydrogen is 30% (BEV is 80%), but this does not matter when the energy used to produce them is renewable.
The future will be interesting and currently what is needed is an efficient mix of different propulsion methods. If synthetic fuels can help provide mobility to millions of motorists and their ICE, then that's good. And here in Europe fuel prices are already approaching 2 Euros per liter ($8.96 / US gallon), so paying a little more for synthetic fuels is a small price to pay.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 09, 2021, 10:55:43 AM
Porsche admits that initially this is to keep the iconic current and future 911s alive - with an ICE. The 911 is about driving pleasure and emotions - and this is where an ICE shines over an EV all day any day.
But several industry leaders - in the article - have stated that synthetic fuels are useful and quick way to lower our carbon emissions. They state that countries with an abundance of sun and wind are ideal places to set up wind and solar power plants which can provide the energy needed to produce synthetic fuel and hydrogen. The overall efficiency of synthetic fuels is at around 15% and hydrogen is 30% (BEV is 80%), but this does not matter when the energy used to produce them is renewable.
The future will be interesting and currently what is needed is an efficient mix of different propulsion methods. If synthetic fuels can help provide mobility to millions of motorists and their ICE, then that's good. And here in Europe fuel prices are already approaching 2 Euros per liter ($8.96 / US gallon), so paying a little more for synthetic fuels is a small price to pay.
Synthetic fuels will cost 4 or 5x that amount. It's not a mainstream product
E T H A N O L
Quote from: Raza on July 08, 2021, 08:44:32 PM
I still have my Z4. I do plan on replacing it soon, but with another car with a 6 speed manual and an inline 6.
I was talking about the Boxster
I just read the rest of this thread. What in the fuck is going on in here?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 09, 2021, 02:14:43 PM
I was talking about the Boxster
Not the best example—that car was sold illegally. Were it not for that, I would probably still have it. Secondly, I ended up replacing it with another six cylinder manual transmission sports car. So I'm an example of a consumer that the death of the manual and/or ICE would actually have an effect. Not my fault the rest of you lot drive minivans.
Though, to your point, I did misread F6 as I6, because I've never seen it referred to as F6 before. Always H6.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 09, 2021, 12:03:20 PM
E T H A N O L
A perfect example of the catastrophe of government involvement in the market, particularly "regulation" of the environment. The damage, environmentally and otherwise, of the ethanol hegemony, is (or should be) historic.
EVs will be no different, particularly in harming lower income and rural folk.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 09, 2021, 03:49:50 PM
A perfect example of the catastrophe of government involvement in the market, particularly "regulation" of the environment. The damage, environmentally and otherwise, of the ethanol hegemony, is (or should be) historic.
I've never been a fan of ethanol and don't think it's a good long term option, but it certainly makes more sense than synthetic gasoline.
Second gen advanced biofuels are probably the best shot at zero carbon gasoline type fuels for the masses. Uses plants other than corn, that aren't used for food and don't use fertilizer, and uses less energy than the synthetic fuels that Porsche is working on. It looks like second gen biofuels are estimated to cost twice as much as gasoline, instead of 3-4x for the synthetic
We could turn algae into fuel. Tons of the stuff in the world's oceans.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvGssEM4bLg
Terrible news.
Mercedes Will Largely Eliminate Internal Combustion Engines by The End of The Decade
Mercedes is renowned for producing great V8 and V12 engines, but their time is apparently running out.
According to Automobilwoche, the company is speeding up their switch to electric vehicles and this means internal combustion engines will largely be eliminated by the end of the decade.
Specifics are lacking, but every single model line is set to offer an electric variant. Furthermore, plug-in hybrids will be eliminated as the company will focus their efforts on pure electric vehicles.
While some automakers have set firm dates to go EV-only, Mercedes reportedly isn't ready to commit to a specific timeline. Instead, the company believes there will still be demand for internal combustion engines after 2030 in markets that lack a robust charging infrastructure.
Mercedes isn't alone in this thinking as Audi is taking a similar approach. Last month, the automaker revealed plans to phase out internal combustion engines by 2033, but noted the "combustion engine's discontinuation ... will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation." The company added they expect to see continued demand for internal combustion engines in China beyond 2033, so some ICE models may be manufactured locally after that date.
The publication said Mercedes could officially announce the move on July 22nd, but the company declined to comment to Automotive News Europe. Regardless, the automaker is expected to make a series of announcements at a strategy event and these are said to include details about new platforms as well as the development of a new operating system.
Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/mercedes-will-largely-eliminate-internal-combustions-engines-by-the-end-of-the-decade/
Unfortunate, but inevitable.
All talk, with carefully worded "outs" such as: combustion engine's discontinuation...will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation. Meaningless drivel.
I believe these same auto companies were just heavily fined for colluding with one another to not go beyond govt regulations for diesel emissions (they colluded to not advance the tech to get even cleaner emissions than what the govt required).
These companies are just pandering to what they believe will be the near future govt regulation anyways. Their hand has been forced.
Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.
Quote from: veeman on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM
Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.
If Kim Jong Un is the key to keeping the ICE alive then.... :rockon: :lol:
Why would the S class stay ICE when EV drivetrains can deliver smoothness and acceleration beyond the wildest dreams of any V12?
Quote from: Laconian on July 10, 2021, 12:14:06 PM
Why would the S class stay ICE when EV drivetrains can deliver smoothness and acceleration beyond the wildest dreams of any V12?
How do you convince a Third World dictator sitting on 300 years worth of cheap fossil fuel oil reserves to drive an EV S-Class? :lol:
Quote from: cawimmer430 on July 10, 2021, 04:09:05 PM
How do you convince a Third World dictator sitting on 300 years worth of cheap fossil fuel oil reserves to drive an EV S-Class? :lol:
"Oh so you bought the Beta car."
Quote from: veeman on July 10, 2021, 11:08:59 AM
All talk, with carefully worded "outs" such as: combustion engine's discontinuation...will ultimately be decided by customers and legislation. Meaningless drivel.
I believe these same auto companies were just heavily fined for colluding with one another to not go beyond govt regulations for diesel emissions (they colluded to not advance the tech to get even cleaner emissions than what the govt required).
These companies are just pandering to what they believe will be the near future govt regulation anyways. Their hand has been forced.
Betcha 20 years from now they'll continue to supply new ICE Mercedes S classes to whomever the dictator of North Korea will be at that time and their high level minions.
You really think they're gonna go through all that trouble to make like 10 illegal S class sales
If the big 3 markets (China, EU, USA) go electric all the car companies are going with them.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 11, 2021, 07:26:49 AM
You really think they're gonna go through all that trouble to make like 10 illegal S class sales
If the big 3 markets (China, EU, USA) go electric all the car companies are going with them.
The issue I have with all these statements of many of the big automakers saying they're going all electric is there is nothing preventing them from "altering the deal". EV is a trifle of total new car sales in the U.S. currently and only really significant in a handful of states. And in 10 or 20 years, all new car sales of these same auto companies will be EV? What?! Mercedes last few years sells anywhere from @8000 to @15000
cars in India per year. Not a lot but not nothing. So if in 10 to 20 years there is no significant public EV network in India and many of the luxury homes/apartments have generators because the electric grid kinda sucks, how many buyers would want an EV Mercedes over there. Sure some. But most probably wouldn't. So are you telling me Mercedes will just let go of that emerging market? That's complete bullsh-t. Automakers are going to do what makes them money, period. These press statements are meaningless IMHO. Sure they will only sell EV in Germany and France because the govt will effectively ban new ICE vehicles. But they will find a way to put plenty of new ICE engines in their Mercedes in the 2/3 of the world where EV is not really feasible for the next 30 plus years given their piss poor electric grid, lack of money, lack of infrastructure, etc. Like most if not all of Central America, South America, Mexico, Africa, and much of Asia.
Just an anecdote of what a piss poor electric grid does to alter life a bit, even for the well off. Many of my cousins on my Dad's side are pretty well off financially. Millionaires when you convert their liquid assets to U.S. dollars. Some of them have luxury German cars. Only one of my relatives has a clothes dryer at home. Some have a washing machine but only one has a clothes dryer. Their household help take their clothes out of the house to get them washed and dried. My cousins who are not so wealthy have household help who washes their clothes in a soap and water bucket and hang them on a clothesline. Also almost none of my cousins have central air conditioning. Most of them have individual rooms in their home which are air conditioned but not the common areas. And India is hot as hell. The point is, the electric grid is just OK. It's not nearly robust enough at this time for EV and I don't foresee it being so for many many years.
Small Nuclear Reactors (https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx) have been in the news lately.
Quote
Small modular reactors (SMRs) are defined as nuclear reactors generally 300 MWe equivalent or less, designed with modular technology using module factory fabrication, pursuing economies of series production and short construction times. This definition, from the World Nuclear Association, is closely based on those from the IAEA and the US Nuclear Energy Institute. Some of the already-operating small reactors mentioned or tabulated below do not fit this definition, but most of those described do fit it. PWR types may have integral steam generators, in which case the reactor pressure vessel needs to be larger, limiting portability from factory to site. Hence many larger PWRs such as the Rolls-Royce UK SMR have external steam generators.
.....
Remember when ethanol and hybrids were going to change it all? NOPE.
It's all fake news - whether it's existing automakers declaring they'll go all EV, or states or entire countries.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 11, 2021, 10:26:06 AM
Remember when ethanol and hybrids were going to change it all? NOPE.
It's all fake news - whether it's existing automakers declaring they'll go all EV, or states or entire countries.
Hybrids were always meant as a stopgap measure until battery technology advanced.
Quote from: veeman on July 11, 2021, 09:51:38 AM
The issue I have with all these statements of many of the big automakers saying they're going all electric is there is nothing preventing them from "altering the deal".
Well completely gutting their development budget on anything not EV related would be a fairly big hurdle to suddenly producing new ICE cars
Quote from: r0tor on July 11, 2021, 11:21:18 AM
Well completely gutting their development budget on anything not EV related would be a fairly big hurdle to suddenly producing new ICE cars
They don't need to put any significant money into developing new ICE. I think 20 to 30 years from now, in the majority of the world, you will be able to buy a new German luxury car with an ICE because EV will only be practical in areas where the EV infrastructure and electric grid is robust. The ICE offered in the new Mercedes will probably be based on a 30 year old design and likely hybrid.
Wealthy people in "3rd world" countries buy Mercedes too.
I agree 100% with Veeman.
The internal combustion engine is needlessly being destroyed by those dumb wackos in Brussels (HQ of the EU[SSR]), who are setting stupid and unrealistic goals. Everything needs to become "green" and "climate friendly". The upcoming EURO-7 emission laws with their unrealistic and physically impossible emission requirements are effectively a ban on the ICE.
As much as the German brands like to tout their "dedication to EVs" and "zero emissions", the reality is that BMW is moving ICE production to the UK, which it now out[side] of the EU. Daimler is moving ICE production to China - where I can see these engines being installed in Daimler cars that are produced in China for Asian markets. Volkswagen is the biggest loudmouth about their EVs, but they recently admitted that their entire lineup in South America and in South Africa will be ICE for decades to come. Bottom line, the rest of the not-so-hysterical world will continue to drive ICEs for decades.
There's zero incentive in those markets to get an EV. The EV infrastructure in Europe is a joke and it's "expanding" at a very slow rate. Norway is the shining light followed by the Netherlands IIRC. France, Germany and the UK are so-so, the rest of Europe is way behind in expanding the EV infrastructure.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 11, 2021, 10:29:01 AM
Hybrids were always meant as a stopgap measure until battery technology advanced.
That's not how I remember hybrids being pitched. It was all about recovering and reusing "free" or wasted energy. Well, turns out, that ~20 years on it's still only Toyota hybrids that sell, and mostly because of reputation, but also of course because that $20k Civic or Corolla that gets 35-40 mpg is still a damned good deal, both $$$ and environmentally.
I predict much the same will happen with Tesla. All these upstarts - Lucid, Rivian, Lordstown, etc. - will all fail because pretty much nobody is going to buy the product no matter how much better it is. Established players will have a future like GM's history with the Bolt - just a fraction of a fraction of their sales. EVs are not profitable and most buyers cannot afford them. I'm predicting another ~20 years before equivalency.
Quote from: GoCougs on July 12, 2021, 01:05:40 AM
That's not how I remember hybrids being pitched. It was all about recovering and reusing "free" or wasted energy. Well, turns out, that ~20 years on it's still only Toyota hybrids that sell, and mostly because of reputation, but also of course because that $20k Civic or Corolla that gets 35-40 mpg is still a damned good deal, both $$$ and environmentally.
I predict much the same will happen with Tesla. All these upstarts - Lucid, Rivian, Lordstown, etc. - will all fail because pretty much nobody is going to buy the product no matter how much better it is. Established players will have a future like GM's history with the Bolt - just a fraction of a fraction of their sales. EVs are not profitable and most buyers cannot afford them. I'm predicting another ~20 years before equivalency.
Hybrids, for the most part, were replaced by turbo 4s, being cheaper, less complicated, etc. to produce while being able to be rated at improved mileage...which they are capable of if not driven by lead-foots. They too are/were a compromise until battery development evolved to its current level, hence the switch to EVs by so many manufacturers. This may well be an interim measure until hydrogen becomes feasible as an alternative.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 12, 2021, 07:54:43 AM
This may well be an interim measure until hydrogen becomes feasible as an alternative.
The issue with hydrogen is that the most common method of producing hydrogen is with natural gas. So it still comes from fossil fuels.
C&D just did a 10-Best EVs issue. I don't remember them ever doing that with hybrids.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 12, 2021, 09:58:00 AM
The issue with hydrogen is that the most common method of producing hydrogen is with natural gas. So it still comes from fossil fuels.
C&D just did a 10-Best EVs issue. I don't remember them ever doing that with hybrids.
Different methods of producing hydrogen, electrolysis from dedicated environment friendly, wind, sun, etc. methods. Otherwise, there would be no point. However, ongoing battery development may make EVs the only realistic approach.
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 12, 2021, 07:54:43 AM
Hybrids, for the most part, were replaced by turbo 4s, being cheaper, less complicated, etc. to produce while being able to be rated at improved mileage...which they are capable of if not driven by lead-foots. They too are/were a compromise until battery development evolved to its current level, hence the switch to EVs by so many manufacturers. This may well be an interim measure until hydrogen becomes feasible as an alternative.
Hybrids are still around. The turbo-4 replaced the V6, and to some extent, the V8, to mediocre if not nil environmental advantage, taking into consideration gaming of the mpg tests and shorter engine life.
Quote from: veeman on July 11, 2021, 05:11:44 PM
They don't need to put any significant money into developing new ICE. I think 20 to 30 years from now, in the majority of the world, you will be able to buy a new German luxury car with an ICE because EV will only be practical in areas where the EV infrastructure and electric grid is robust. The ICE offered in the new Mercedes will probably be based on a 30 year old design and likely hybrid.
Wealthy people in "3rd world" countries buy Mercedes too.
Are they going to use a 30 year old chassis as well? Not only has ICE engine development stopped, but basically every platform getting designed is EV only.
Quote from: r0tor on July 12, 2021, 07:23:19 PM
Are they going to use a 30 year old chassis as well? Not only has ICE engine development stopped, but basically every platform getting designed is EV only.
Probably. VW did sell "new" 30 plus year old design Beetles in Mexico until 2003. "3rd" world and former communist countries have sold millions of new cars off the assembly line that were based on 30 plus year old designs.
They will do, IMHO, whatever they need to do to sell new ICE cars where EV is not really feasible due to poor electrical grid infrastructure and lack of the large amounts of money required to set up and maintain public EV charging stations (which is the majority of countries in the world). I also think, 30 years from now, plenty of new ICE vehicles from Mercedes will be available in the U.S. because, even with the western portion of the U.S. currently heating up like a cauldron on a firepit, there is and will continue to be a lack of consensus in Congress and state governments to "ban" ICE engines for the next several decades. Texas does not care if all of California turns into Death Valley climate.