https://www.econotimes.com/Hyundai-Motor-shuts-engine-development-unit-1624050
All the comments I've seen have just been roasting Hyundai for their unreliable ICEs, no wonder they're giving up and moving on :lol:
Quote
Hyundai Motor Group will stop making internal combustion engines to hasten its transformation into an electric vehicle maker. The company said that electrification is unavoidable, so it will now work in that direction and ditch the fuel-powered vehicles.
According to The Korea Economic Daily, Hyundai Motor has closed down its engine development department which is stationed at the company's research and development (R&D) headquarters and business insiders revealed this information late last week.
"Now, it is inevitable to convert into electrification," KED Global quoted Park Chung Kook, the newly-appointed R&D chief as saying in an email that was sent to employees. "Our own engine development is a great achievement but we must change the system to create future innovation based on the great asset from the past."
The move to shutter the said division came as the automobile industry around the world is shifting to electric vehicles and it is happening faster than expected. EVs do not require a powertrain as they run on an electric motor thus the engine development unit is not needed any longer.
Hyundai Motor's engine development was first established in 1983 and the company is scrapping it this month after almost 40 years. With the closure, the efforts will not be redirected to improve the automaker's EV development division.
In the past, the EV development was under the powertrain units and now all the teams in the powertrain have been converted to electrification divisions. A battery development center was also established under the electrification to further strengthen advanced battery technology.
Hyundai Motor also formed a battery design team, a battery performance development team, and more for its EV development center. The carmaker along with its subsidiary, Kia Motors, is aiming to sell 1.7 million electric vehicles worldwide in 2026.
With the sudden shutdown, Business Korea reported that Hyundai Motor Group has officially terminated the engine development by announcing rules stating not to release any new models of internal combustion engines. This will also formally mark the transformation of its Powertrain team into the Electrification Development Team which will focus on R&D for electric vehicles.
Interesting considering they just released a new valvetrain design with variable valve duration.
Hyundai sells lots of new cars in India and I'd imagine other 3rd world markets, which are no where near electrification of their automotive landscape. I guess they'll soldier on with 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 year old tech going into the future.
"EVs do not require a powertrain as they run on an electric motor."
Holy fuck is this stupid. The electric motor, inverters, and whatever gear reduction there is on the motor Is the powertrain.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 28, 2021, 11:26:24 AM
"EVs do not require a powertrain as they run on an electric motor."
Holy fuck is this stupid. The electric motor, inverters, and whatever gear reduction there is on the motor Is the powertrain.
Yeah, bad writing.
Quote from: veeman on December 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
Hyundai sells lots of new cars in India and I'd imagine other 3rd world markets, which are no where near electrification of their automotive landscape. I guess they'll soldier on with 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 year old tech going into the future.
Probably. I don't think more advanced engines would be good for those markets anyway. Have to balance the tech with the cost and ease of repair.
Correct. They're not ceasing engine production. They're ceasing trying to make better engines.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 28, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
Correct. They're not ceasing engine production. They're ceasing trying to make better engines.
The 2.0l I-4 GTDI engine already exists. There is nothing left to improve.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 28, 2021, 02:02:09 PM
The 2.0l I-4 GTDI engine already exists. There is nothing left to improve.
Infin...Hyundai world takeover???
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 28, 2021, 02:02:09 PM
The 2.0l I-4 GTDI engine already exists. There is nothing left to improve.
Perfection
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 28, 2021, 02:02:09 PM
The 2.0l I-4 GTDI engine already exists. There is nothing left to improve.
EcoBoost :ohyeah:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 28, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
Correct. They're not ceasing engine production. They're ceasing trying to make better engines.
Mercedes-Benz stopped ICE development a while back IIRC. If you're an electrical engineering grad, the EV world of traction motors, & power electronics is your oyster.
Terrible move. Terrible.
What about their products for Third World nations where nobody will give a shit about EVs for decades to come?
Even BMW, while publicly pandering to the climate wokeness, confessed deep down that they think the pure EV-route is the wrong way to go and they will continue to produce ICE.
I'm just glad that synthetic fuels are now being considered here in Europe to keep ICEs alive and our mobility.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 30, 2021, 10:05:51 AM
Terrible move. Terrible.
What about their products for Third World nations where nobody will give a shit about EVs for decades to come?
Even BMW, while publicly pandering to the climate wokeness, confessed deep down that they think the pure EV-route is the wrong way to go and they will continue to produce ICE.
I'm just glad that synthetic fuels are now being considered here in Europe to keep ICEs alive and our mobility.
EV does have it's place but it's not the end all and be all of solutions that they're making it out to be, at least not with the current battery technology.
Quote from: NomisR on December 30, 2021, 10:40:20 AM
EV does have it's place but it's not the end all and be all of solutions that they're making it out to be, at least not with the current battery technology.
Agreed.
For a city car I think an EV is ideal. The constant braking partially recharges the battery so braking is put to good use.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on December 30, 2021, 10:05:51 AM
Terrible move. Terrible.
What about their products for Third World nations where nobody will give a shit about EVs for decades to come?
Even BMW, while publicly pandering to the climate wokeness, confessed deep down that they think the pure EV-route is the wrong way to go and they will continue to produce ICE.
I'm just glad that synthetic fuels are now being considered here in Europe to keep ICEs alive and our mobility.
Hyundai sales are majority in the US, Europe, China, and India. 80% of those sales being US/Europe/China, where Hyundai will need to develop lots of EVs in order to compete. 3rd world countries can continue using current engine technology for a long time, along with some EV sales. Look at the current sales trends, stock market valuations, and which cars have the longest wait lists. EVs are clearly what the market wants going forward. Your personal feelings don't matter much, sorry. And Hyundai isn't going to base their future on that. It's not "wokeness".
I bet the amortization schedule for big ICE capital investments isn't as long as they would like it to be.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 30, 2021, 11:05:17 AM
Hyundai sales are majority in the US, Europe, China, and India. 80% of those sales being US/Europe/China, where Hyundai will need to develop lots of EVs in order to compete. 3rd world countries can continue using current engine technology for a long time, along with some EV sales. Look at the current sales trends, stock market valuations, and which cars have the longest wait lists. EVs are clearly what the market wants going forward. Your personal feelings don't matter much, sorry. And Hyundai isn't going to base their future on that. It's not "wokeness".
To what extent will Third World countries (literally 1/2 the planet) be harmed via stopping progress in ICE technology? Let's not forget all the additional mining and drilling and environmental damage to occur in those same countries to support EVs...
IOW, the EV creedo is "NIMBY."
I'm still optimistic however that EVs are DOA. 10 years on and nobody buys an EV that isn't a Tesla, and all indications are the trend will continue (i.e., by looking at Toyota and hybrids, now some 20 years on).
Quote from: GoCougs on December 30, 2021, 01:41:39 PM
To what extent will Third World countries (literally 1/2 the planet) be harmed via stopping progress in ICE technology? Let's not forget all the additional mining and drilling and environmental damage to occur in those same countries to support EVs...
IOW, the EV creedo is "NIMBY."
Moving the goalposts a bit... I don't see how stopping current ICE technology innovation will harm countries that are currently using ICE tech from the 1990s or earlier. They still have a lot of room for improvement just by updating to current ICE tech. :huh: Countries like Vietnam are choked by exhaust fumes from little scooters using decades old ICE tech. We already know how to clean it up a lot.
But if you're going to bring up mineral mining, you have to compare it to the gasoline extraction supply chain. Find a full comparison, start to end, and then we can see which is better for the environment. Internet commenters love to say BS like "ackchyually EVs are worse the environment because of the battery & mining" or "EVs are ackchyually powered by coal and it's worse than gasoline!" with no numbers to back it up. I've previously posted the studies that show that EVs make up for the higher emissions of battery manufacturing after a year or two of driving. I believe it was just looking at emissions, not the other things involved with mining. So you would need to find a study that looks at those other things. And then compares it to stuff like the downsides of fracking (earthquakes, contaminated water supplies, etc) and other fossil fuel extraction methods and supply chain.
The only NIMBYism I can find regarding cobalt or lithium mining is from Native American & environmental groups against lithium mining in Nevada. Probably a pretty similar group that is always fighting pipelines in the Dakotas/etc. Not typical EV owners.
Austalia and Canada are probably going to ramp up cobalt and lithium extraction. The rest of the 1st world isn't very mineral rich, just like they aren't very oil rich. I don't see much of a difference.
Quote
I'm still optimistic however that EVs are DOA. 10 years on and nobody buys an EV that isn't a Tesla, and all indications are the trend will continue (i.e., by looking at Toyota and hybrids, now some 20 years on).
I don't know how you can look at the industry and think that. At no point has the whole industry invested 1/10 the amount into hybrids as they are EVs. Look at the industry leaders - super cars, big trucks, luxury cars. All moving towards electrification.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 30, 2021, 02:43:36 PM
I don't know how you can look at the industry and think that. At no point has the whole industry invested 1/10 the amount into hybrids as they are EVs. Look at the industry leaders - super cars, big trucks, luxury cars. All moving towards electrification.
I'm not thinking I'm looking at facts: it's been 10 years, and EVs are still far too expensive, still not profitable for automakers, and still not equivalent in range to ICE-powered vehicles, and there is no foreseeable path by which any of this changes (absent extreme government intervention).
Quote from: GoCougs on December 30, 2021, 03:49:05 PM
I'm not thinking I'm looking at facts: it's been 10 years, and EVs are still far too expensive, still not profitable for automakers, and still not equivalent in range to ICE-powered vehicles, and there is no foreseeable path by which any of this changes (absent extreme government intervention).
Yup, nothing changes.
(https://i.imgur.com/G1v1aL9.png)
So the government just hit the US car industry with heavy new CAFE standards on a severely tight schedule (48 mpg by 2026.) AND the administration could not get its "Build Back Better" orgy of EV subsidies through the Senate. So the Big Three are in trouble.
24 minutes of nerd history detail on what happens next:
- Hugely overtaxed engineering departments
- Low quality
- Crap products rushed to market
- Ruined reputations
https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno (https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno)
Going by that graph alone it seems as if battery cost is starting to flatten out, and EV cars are still pretty expensive relative to their ICE counterparts.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 30, 2021, 07:23:23 PM
So the government just hit the US car industry with heavy new CAFE standards on a severely tight schedule (48 mpg by 2026.) AND the administration could not get its "Build Back Better" orgy of EV subsidies through the Senate. So the Big Three are in trouble.
24 minutes of nerd history detail on what happens next:
- Hugely overtaxed engineering departments
- Low quality
- Crap products rushed to market
- Runed reputations
https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno (https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno)
48 mpg in 2026 simply isn't going to happen without huge weight reductions (smaller vehicles), smaller anemic engines, or some kind of eMPG/MPG fuckery of the numbers.
Quote from: Submariner on December 30, 2021, 07:24:06 PM
Going by that graph alone it seems as if battery cost is starting to flatten out, and EV cars are still pretty expensive relative to their ICE counterparts.
Though battery capacity has gotten cheaper, the battery pack hasn't, IOW, tracking $/kWhr is a bit of smoke and mirrors. 10 years on and the Model S, though more capable and with more range, is relatively more expensive than ever:
MY2012 MSRP: $57k (~$80k in 2022 $).
MY2022 MSRP: $95k.
Even more notable, 20 years on, and hybrids are still much more expensive than their ICE-only counterparts. Same is playing out with EVs, and I don't see, nor have I heard, of facts/data/logic that will change that, other than severe government intervention (federal subsidies and nationalization, not only of the automakers but of infrastructure (charging stations, power grid upgrades) and loans (a la FannieMae/FreddieMac)).
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 30, 2021, 07:23:23 PM
So the government just hit the US car industry with heavy new CAFE standards on a severely tight schedule (48 mpg by 2026.) AND the administration could not get its "Build Back Better" orgy of EV subsidies through the Senate. So the Big Three are in trouble.
24 minutes of nerd history detail on what happens next:
- Hugely overtaxed engineering departments
- Low quality
- Crap products rushed to market
- Runed reputations
https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno (https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno)
Great vid - though he did admit that as the '80s rolled on things did get a lot better.
Quote from: Submariner on December 30, 2021, 07:24:06 PM
Going by that graph alone it seems as if battery cost is starting to flatten out, and EV cars are still pretty expensive relative to their ICE counterparts.
Kinda has to, batteries aren't gonna be $0/kwh or negative...
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 30, 2021, 07:23:23 PM
So the government just hit the US car industry with heavy new CAFE standards on a severely tight schedule (48 mpg by 2026.) AND the administration could not get its "Build Back Better" orgy of EV subsidies through the Senate. So the Big Three are in trouble.
24 minutes of nerd history detail on what happens next:
- Hugely overtaxed engineering departments
- Low quality
- Crap products rushed to market
- Runed reputations
https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno (https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno)
I don't think the situations are comparable. We have vehicles capable of meeting the requirements and have/know the tech required to meet the standards. The main issue will be adjusting the vehicle design/manufacturing in time, due to the normal product cycle time vs tight timeline. And convincing consumers to buy the "right" products.
Quote from: Submariner on December 30, 2021, 07:24:06 PM
Going by that graph alone it seems as if battery cost is starting to flatten out, and EV cars are still pretty expensive relative to their ICE counterparts.
Looks like a steady exponential curve.. you'd probably see the same slope if you zoomed into the last few years. I wonder what it's converging to.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 30, 2021, 08:07:06 PM
Kinda has to, batteries aren't gonna be $0/kwh or negative...
Sure...my point is that EVs aren't particularly cost effective and battery prices (for the time being at least) seem to be flattening out. IOW, input costs for expenaive EVs aren't likely to come down much.
Quote from: Submariner on December 30, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
48 mpg in 2026 simply isn't going to happen without huge weight reductions (smaller vehicles), smaller anemic engines, or some kind of eMPG/MPG fuckery of the numbers.
I doubt trucks/suvs were included in the regulation, so people will just flock to them, negating any progress.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 30, 2021, 01:41:39 PM
To what extent will Third World countries (literally 1/2 the planet) be harmed via stopping progress in ICE technology? Let's not forget all the additional mining and drilling and environmental damage to occur in those same countries to support EVs...
IOW, the EV creedo is "NIMBY."
I'm still optimistic however that EVs are DOA. 10 years on and nobody buys an EV that isn't a Tesla, and all indications are the trend will continue (i.e., by looking at Toyota and hybrids, now some 20 years on).
Afghanistain ain't gonna be buying any petrol DI variable geometry turbo engines with catalytic converters anytime soon.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 30, 2021, 08:07:06 PM
Kinda has to, batteries aren't gonna be $0/kwh or negative...
The govt. can make that happen. Govt. magic.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 30, 2021, 11:05:17 AM
Your personal feelings don't matter much, sorry. And Hyundai isn't going to base their future on that. It's not "wokeness".
I don't expect any car company to function this way, but they are still making a mistake by completely abandoning the ICE in my honest opinion. Much of the world will still rely on the ICE for decades to come.
They're possibly also alienating say the typical Hyundai i30 N buyer, who most likely only has one car (the i30 N) and likes a performance hot hatch with an ICE and wouldn't touch an IONIQ 5 for example. Kind of like the average Volkswagen Golf GTI driver - a one car owner who doesn't want to be seen dead in an ID.3.
By the way, I thought this meme was funny! :thumbsup:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsmDz2bK/IMG-8068.png)
Quote from: Rich on December 30, 2021, 11:05:41 PM
Afghanistain ain't gonna be buying any petrol DI variable geometry turbo engines with catalytic converters anytime soon.
Where did these (modern) cars from Kabul come from?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8242/28572144704_90ef62473a_b.jpg)
at least half of 'em are running diesels last developed in the 90s without a cat.
If the automakers abandoned ICE R&D in MY2000, the cars in the photo would be no different.
Quote from: Rich on December 31, 2021, 12:25:48 PM
at least half of 'em are running diesels last developed in the 90s without a cat.
If the automakers abandoned ICE development in MY2000, the cars in the photo would be no different.
NimbySPIN.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 30, 2021, 07:23:23 PM
So the government just hit the US car industry with heavy new CAFE standards on a severely tight schedule (48 mpg by 2026.) AND the administration could not get its "Build Back Better" orgy of EV subsidies through the Senate. So the Big Three are in trouble.
24 minutes of nerd history detail on what happens next:
- Hugely overtaxed engineering departments
- Low quality
- Crap products rushed to market
- Ruined reputations
https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno (https://youtu.be/rX7wSNQzpno)
Sounds like the party of No should maybe vote yes
Cheapest vehicle Ford makes is now a hybrid pickup. Weighs 3600lbs, gets 42mpg city. Much of that cost comes from outsourcing to Mexico, but imagine the possibilities for the rest of the world!
Quote from: GoCougs on December 31, 2021, 12:10:43 PM
Where did these (modern) cars from Kabul come from?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8242/28572144704_90ef62473a_b.jpg)
Mostly Japan and Korea :lol: