If true, BMW has fully lost the plot

[12,000 RPM]

JFC man.

The engine lineup will greatly vary from the 136-hp 316d to the 380-hp M340i.
The curtain is about to fall on the sixth-generation 3 Series as BMW is putting the finishing touches on the next iteration of its highly acclaimed sedan. Rumored to debut in October at the Paris Motor Show, the 3er will go on sale in about a year from now and unsurprisingly it's going to be available with a wide array of gasoline and diesel engines.

Sources close BMW have told Spanish magazine Motor.es the entry point into the gasoline-fed engine lineup will be represented by the 318i with 150 horsepower bringing a 14-hp bump over the current model. Available with either a six-speed manual or an optional eight-speed automatic, the new 318i will come exclusively with a rear-wheel-drive layout.

For those in need of more oomph, the 320i will up the power ante to 204 hp and will give buyers the option of both gearboxes, and either rear- or all-wheel drive. Compared to the existing 320i, its replacement will have an extra 20 hp. A thrifty 320i Efficient Dynamics version seems to be in the pipeline as a 170-hp, RWD-only model with both the manual and the auto.

Exclusively offered with the automatic gearbox, the 330i will grow from today's 252 hp to 265 hp delivered to either the rear wheels or to both front and rear axles.

The temporary range topper (until the M3's arrival) will be the M340i as an auto- and xDrive-only model providing 380 hp, which would represent a massive increase over the existing 326-hp M340i.

On the diesel side, we kick things off with the 316d and its 136 hp (20 hp more than before) channeled to the rear wheels via either the manual or the auto. Up next is the 318d rated at 163 hp (+13 hp) and with the same transmissions and RWD-only configuration. Should you want a diesel-powered 3 Series with AWD, you will have to step up to the 320d and its 204 hp. It will have 14 hp more than the current car and will please both worlds by being available with a manual and an automatic.

Hotter diesels will include the 325d and 330d with RWD or AWD and an automatic-only configuration. The former is said to offer 238 hp (up by 14 hp) whereas the later will churn 265 hp (up by 7 hp).

The crown jewel of the diesel 3 Series family will be an M340d expected to produce anywhere between 320 and 340 hp sent to both axles via an eight-speed automatic. It will replace the existing 335d and its 313-hp output.

Of course, these numbers are not official at this point and there could be some small changes here and there. It's worth mentioning a couple of automatic xDrive plug-in hybrids are on the agenda in the form of the 325e and 330e. These partially electrified 3 Series model will allegedly boast 230 hp and 265 hp, respectively.

https://www.motor1.com/news/230982/bmw-3-series-engine-details-leaked/

So just as a quick summary, of all the versions of the next 3 series we are most likely to get (320i, 330i, M340i, 330d, 330e), the only version to come with a stick is the cheapest, least powerful 320i. And the only 6 banger version to start will be automatic AND AWD only. With these changes, if you don't care about the brand, what is the point of a 3 series over any of its competition anymore? MCM give me your best spin please, I'd love to hear how this is a positive development.

"BMW: The Ultimate Audi"... no, I take that back, Audi offers a stickshift with its 330i equivalent, as does Cadillac and I think Jaguar. What is going on

[MexicoCityM3]

With these changes, if you don't care about the brand, what is the point of a 3 series over any of its competition anymore? MCM give me your best spin please, I'd love to hear how this is a positive development.

Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.

I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.

[Laconian]

BMW's demographics are definitely changing, it's sad but they'd be dumb to not tailor their cars for current buyers' tastes.

[2o6]

I like the F30 more than the E90

[12,000 RPM]

Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.

I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.

I don't see how eliminating drivetrain and transmission choices will help keep the 3er as a sales class leader. Someone who wants a RWD manual sedan with a 6 banger will have to shop elsewhere.

[12,000 RPM]

I like the F30 more than the E90

I like the E60 better than both, but it's too old. Of the two I prefer the F30 as well, mainly for practical reasons.

[2o6]

F30 sport models drive differently than the comfort biased basic cars.

[Xer0]

I don't care for any modern BMW except for the M3 and M2.  I expect that this won't change with the next generation cars.  BMW is probably saving the manuals for only their ///M cars and I expect that if this powertrain lineup is true, the USDM 320 will probably be auto only too.

[Lebowski]

BMW is going to hell and people who drive them are losers. I'm just glad I sold mine before my son is old enough to realize that.

[Raza]

Lost the plot?  They've found it more than ever.  When was the last time you saw a manual anything?  Manual transmissions are basically a myth now. 

Hold on, you task people to task for wanting cars that no one will buy.  And now you're upset with BMW for making cars customers will buy.  This is their first step in getting rid of the manual transmission altogether.  They've been marching slowly towards that for years now. 

This is our time.  Enthusiasts want CR-Vs and autonomous cars.  Enthusiasts call people image-conscious for not wanting a minivan.  If you like to drive, you're a relic.  This is the vape era, popcorn lung and all.  Cars are dead.  BMW is trying to survive.  Boring is the new everything, because everything else no longer exists.  If you like to drive and want something new, buy a Miata while you still can.  NE Miata will be a SkyActiv plug-in crossover, maybe a convertible like the Murano.  This is where we are now; can't hate on them for not making "Jalopnik specials" or catering to enthusiasts who won't buy them and then hate on them for going after people who only buy for the badge.  A BMW will always be a BMW and it'll always be German and it'll always be expensive, and because of that there will always be prestige attached to the name and therefore people will buy it.  They got their laurels and now they're going to rest on them until something makes them do otherwise.  These cars aren't for us anymore.  They're only a stopgap before everything goes plug-in and autonomous.

[GoCougs]

Turbos w/manuals are sorta sucky, and if the I6 remains single turbo, that much boost from a single turbo to get 380 hp out of a 3.0L motor = really sucky.

[MexicoCityM3]

Turbos w/manuals are sorta sucky, and if the I6 remains single turbo, that much boost from a single turbo to get 380 hp out of a 3.0L motor = really sucky.

M2 has a single turbo and 360hp. Not sucky. One thing BMW can still do well is engines.

[MexicoCityM3]

Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review

It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):

"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."

"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."

"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."

[r0tor]

M2 has a single turbo and 360hp. Not sucky. One thing BMW can still do well is engines.

Very true... The current N55 and S55 just spectacular engines

[r0tor]

Moral of the story is if you want a manual I6 BMW you better get it now.

[MX793]

Problem is nobody buys the goddam manuals new today. Whatever the "point" is, it is enough to keep the 3er as a sales class leader today. That will not change losing the manuals because NO ONE buys them.

I hope the xDrive only M340i is a rumour only. That would suck. Maybe it'd be ok if they tune the AWD system like they seem to have done with the new, AWD M5. From what I've read they got that one right.

Not true.  BMW moves as many MT equipped cars today as they did 15 years ago.  However, MTs make up a smaller percentage of sales (BMW's sales have increased, and almost the entirety of that increase has been AT volume).

[Galaxy]

An additional Problem: It was already expensive for manufacturers to certify all of the different engine/transmission combos. Going forward anything that has effect on fuel economy is going to have to be certified. Wide tires, aero kit, all will have to be tested. 

[12,000 RPM]

Lost the plot?  They've found it more than ever.  When was the last time you saw a manual anything?  Manual transmissions are basically a myth now. 

Hold on, you task people to task for wanting cars that no one will buy.  And now you're upset with BMW for making cars customers will buy.  This is their first step in getting rid of the manual transmission altogether.  They've been marching slowly towards that for years now. 

This is our time.  Enthusiasts want CR-Vs and autonomous cars.  Enthusiasts call people image-conscious for not wanting a minivan.  If you like to drive, you're a relic.  This is the vape era, popcorn lung and all.  Cars are dead.  BMW is trying to survive.  Boring is the new everything, because everything else no longer exists.  If you like to drive and want something new, buy a Miata while you still can.  NE Miata will be a SkyActiv plug-in crossover, maybe a convertible like the Murano.  This is where we are now; can't hate on them for not making "Jalopnik specials" or catering to enthusiasts who won't buy them and then hate on them for going after people who only buy for the badge.  A BMW will always be a BMW and it'll always be German and it'll always be expensive, and because of that there will always be prestige attached to the name and therefore people will buy it.  They got their laurels and now they're going to rest on them until something makes them do otherwise.  These cars aren't for us anymore.  They're only a stopgap before everything goes plug-in and autonomous.

What on Google Earth are you on about m8

Of course enthusiasts still enjoy driving. The aftermarket for driving enhancing parts is booming. Track days are popular. Events like Grid Life  and Cars & Coffee keep growing. And as far as cars go, just from memory here are all the cars available with manuals (asterisk for manual ONLY):

A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze?
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V?
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3
Miata
Mirage
Versa?
Sentra?
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?

I would argue there are more driver focused manual transmission equipped cars than there have ever been... and despite the homogenization and corporatization of the auto industry that number has seemed to grow substantially over the last decade. Even better, most of those cars are within reach of the general population, rather than being near-irrelevant unobtanium mid 6 figure exotics.

So yea I'm very disappointed in BMW because the 3 literally created a segment of cars for enthusiasts, and they seem to move further and further away from that with each generation.... but using this as some kind of bellweather for the whole industry? Nah calm down. Unless you were just being sarcastic (if you even know when you are being serious or sarcastic anymore)

[12,000 RPM]

Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review

It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):

"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."

"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."

"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."

Meanwhile, here is the summary for the 5 just under this (M550i xDrive):

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/5-series

HIGHS
Performance, refinement, equipment.

LOWS
Inert driving experience, unresolved ride, no steering feel.

So of the dozens of permutations of the G30, the only one that is any fun to drive is the one that costs 2x the average US household income.

I think you hate old BMWs because they are a reminder of what the company is capable of. They are selling a lot of cars, but the cars are getting worse and worse. C&D hasn't had anything good to say about them because the majority of them are just not driver's cars anymore.

[r0tor]

New BMWs are just fickle for enthusiasts.

Take a stock F15 X5 xdrive35i.  Terrible from an enthusiast perspective as it's way slanted towards luxury (even for an SUV).  Find one with the extremely rare "dynamic handling package" and suddenly the thing is close to X5M handling.  Go shopping at M performance and add the MPPK, exhaust, brakes and the thing turns into a fairly exciting package that's 9/10s an M model.

Same for the F30 3er (and possibly 5er but never looked into them much).  Option packages exist to make the thing pretty exciting.

It seems that although stock base model BMWs are as dull as ever, through careful option selection (and increased cost) you can still get an enthusiast benchmark.

[MexicoCityM3]

I think you hate old BMWs because they are a reminder of what the company is capable of. They are selling a lot of cars, but the cars are getting worse and worse. C&D hasn't had anything good to say about them because the majority of them are just not driver's cars anymore.

Thanks for informing me that I "hate" old BMWs. Time to go sell that E46, then.

About that M550i, I drove one at an autocross and a few exercises a few months ago at a club event to which I brought my E60 and Monika drove the 1M. I thought the M550i was a lot of fun. As expected, about 8-9/10ths the "excitement" of my E60. I don't really get all the C&D complaining about it.

New BMWs are just fickle for enthusiasts.

Take a stock F15 X5 xdrive35i.  Terrible from an enthusiast perspective as it's way slanted towards luxury (even for an SUV).  Find one with the extremely rare "dynamic handling package" and suddenly the thing is close to X5M handling.  Go shopping at M performance and add the MPPK, exhaust, brakes and the thing turns into a fairly exciting package that's 9/10s an M model.

Same for the F30 3er (and possibly 5er but never looked into them much).  Option packages exist to make the thing pretty exciting.

It seems that although stock base model BMWs are as dull as ever, through careful option selection (and increased cost) you can still get an enthusiast benchmark.

Yes. For example a 330i with the right options is a reasonably good 3 series in the context of its history and enthusiast expectations.

[Raza]

What on Google Earth are you on about m8

Of course enthusiasts still enjoy driving. The aftermarket for driving enhancing parts is booming. Track days are popular. Events like Grid Life  and Cars & Coffee keep growing. And as far as cars go, just from memory here are all the cars available with manuals (asterisk for manual ONLY):

A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze?
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V?
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3
Miata
Mirage
Versa?
Sentra?
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?

I would argue there are more driver focused manual transmission equipped cars than there have ever been... and despite the homogenization and corporatization of the auto industry that number has seemed to grow substantially over the last decade. Even better, most of those cars are within reach of the general population, rather than being near-irrelevant unobtanium mid 6 figure exotics.

So yea I'm very disappointed in BMW because the 3 literally created a segment of cars for enthusiasts, and they seem to move further and further away from that with each generation.... but using this as some kind of bellweather for the whole industry? Nah calm down. Unless you were just being sarcastic (if you even know when you are being serious or sarcastic anymore)

So, your list is really grasping at straws in some places. Sure, performance cars still exist. But they're hardly practical—I should know, my daily driver is a sports car. I'm not talking about cars that will largely be second cars. If you have a family or can practically only have one car, you're not going to buy a Corvette as your daily driver. Even so, if you take the Porsche twins, they're a big disappointment compared to the previous models. Plus, the 370Z has never been good; it's always just been a not as good looking version of the 350Z. And the 350Z was just a good looking SUV. Coupes aren't really what I'm talking about here. There will always be a few on the market, until manually driven cars are made illegal, anyway. Plus, a lot of those aren't even good cars, they're just fast. 370Z, like I mentioned. Camaro is a performance car that you can't see out of. The Challenger is a big fat pig.

As for the four door cars, I mean come on. Sentra? Veloster? Fit? HR-V? Kias? Altima? Corolla? Accord? At best, most of those cars are crap and have a manual to make them cheaper. The Accord is the only one that's good for driving everyday and being good to drive. A base model Impreza? That's never been an enthusiast's car; do they even sell them without a CVT anymore? What's an iA and iM? Are they Scions? I thought Scion folded. Passat has been a rolling mattress for years now. Most of these cars you're listing are economy cars.

Then there's the boy racer cars, like the performance Fords, the Civic Si (I mean come on, anyone with eyes will hate to own that car), STI/WRX; these aren't cars adults drive, they're made for kids to lust after and for the middle aged to buy in an attempt to recapture their youth.

Also, in what world does the 8 speed automatic only M5 have a manual? It doesn't even have a fake ass poseur marketing manual (aka DSG). Plus, the M5 and 911 are 100K cars. Clearly not the type of car I'm talking about when we started talking about a 3 series.

That said, there are a few decent cars left on your list that can do the everyday duty for normal people who don't have the ability to have a car sit around most of the time. The Accord, like I said, is a good one. GTI, definitely. Not so sure about the GLI, especially after seeing the new Jetta in 4x4 mode. The 320i is a good option, too. There are a few cars left—for now. But where's today's E39 540i 6MT? What can you take the kids to school in and go to work in and doesn't have a riceboy aero kit on it? The Golf R? That's it? Certainly not the 320i.

Your attitude of "everyone who is more concerned than I am is freaking out for no reason" only goes so far. BMW has more people studying the market than we do. The 3 series has been the car that people have been chasing for decades. As the 3 goes, so will the rest of the market, eventually. As long as the 3 series is successful at turning its back on the enthusiast market; which it most likely will be because enthusiasts are such a small percentage of the market. Companies will never go broke not making cars for enthusiasts.

As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?

[2o6]

A4
2 series/M2
3/4 series & M3/4
M5
Sonic
Cruze? (yes! and available on most trims, and with a diesel)
Camaro
Corvette
Challenger
Fiesta/ST*
Focus/ST*/RS*
Rustang/GT350*/GT350R*
Fit
Civic/SI*/Type-R*
Accord
HR-V? (yep!)
Accent
Elantra
Veloster/N*
Some Jags
Rio (only on super base model)
Forte
2
3
6
CX-3 (not in the US)
Miata
Mirage
Versa? (Only on base model)
Sentra? (only on base model)
Altima?
370Z
Boxster/Cayman
911/GT3
Impreza
Whatever Ragz drives (XV Crosstrek)
WRX/STI*
BRZ
iA
iM
Corolla
Golf/GTI/R
Jetta/GLI
Passat?

[12,000 RPM]

So, your list is really grasping at straws in some places. Sure, performance cars still exist. But they're hardly practical—I should know, my daily driver is a sports car. I'm not talking about cars that will largely be second cars. If you have a family or can practically only have one car, you're not going to buy a Corvette as your daily driver. Even so, if you take the Porsche twins, they're a big disappointment compared to the previous models. Plus, the 370Z has never been good; it's always just been a not as good looking version of the 350Z. And the 350Z was just a good looking SUV. Coupes aren't really what I'm talking about here. There will always be a few on the market, until manually driven cars are made illegal, anyway. Plus, a lot of those aren't even good cars, they're just fast. 370Z, like I mentioned. Camaro is a performance car that you can't see out of. The Challenger is a big fat pig.

As for the four door cars, I mean come on. Sentra? Veloster? Fit? HR-V? Kias? Altima? Corolla? Accord? At best, most of those cars are crap and have a manual to make them cheaper. The Accord is the only one that's good for driving everyday and being good to drive. A base model Impreza? That's never been an enthusiast's car; do they even sell them without a CVT anymore? What's an iA and iM? Are they Scions? I thought Scion folded. Passat has been a rolling mattress for years now. Most of these cars you're listing are economy cars.

Then there's the boy racer cars, like the performance Fords, the Civic Si (I mean come on, anyone with eyes will hate to own that car), STI/WRX; these aren't cars adults drive, they're made for kids to lust after and for the middle aged to buy in an attempt to recapture their youth.

Also, in what world does the 8 speed automatic only M5 have a manual? It doesn't even have a fake ass poseur marketing manual (aka DSG). Plus, the M5 and 911 are 100K cars. Clearly not the type of car I'm talking about when we started talking about a 3 series.

That said, there are a few decent cars left on your list that can do the everyday duty for normal people who don't have the ability to have a car sit around most of the time. The Accord, like I said, is a good one. GTI, definitely. Not so sure about the GLI, especially after seeing the new Jetta in 4x4 mode. The 320i is a good option, too. There are a few cars left—for now. But where's today's E39 540i 6MT? What can you take the kids to school in and go to work in and doesn't have a riceboy aero kit on it? The Golf R? That's it? Certainly not the 320i.

Your attitude of "everyone who is more concerned than I am is freaking out for no reason" only goes so far. BMW has more people studying the market than we do. The 3 series has been the car that people have been chasing for decades. As the 3 goes, so will the rest of the market, eventually. As long as the 3 series is successful at turning its back on the enthusiast market; which it most likely will be because enthusiasts are such a small percentage of the market. Companies will never go broke not making cars for enthusiasts.

As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?

Again, what are you on about m8. You claim the industry is moving to get rid of the manual transmission altogether. Then when I post a list of a broad range of cars with manual transmissions, you discount all of them with bullshit. "O they only put sticks in those to make them cheaper (while claiming BMW DOESN'T offer manuals across its range because its too EXPENSIVE )" "O well those cars dont count because I am to embarrassed to be seen in them" "O those cars dont count because they are Japanese" You have gone off the deep end man.

Bottom line, low take rate and all, stickshift is still alive and very well, with plenty of stickshift only offerings available. It's just a bummer that BMW has thrown up the white flag. Yes my current car is automatic, yes I don't define my worth as a person by the number of pedals in my car, but I still think it's important for stickshift to exist.

[12,000 RPM]

Thanks for informing me that I "hate" old BMWs. Time to go sell that E46, then.

We are talking older than that

About that M550i, I drove one at an autocross and a few exercises a few months ago at a club event to which I brought my E60 and Monika drove the 1M. I thought the M550i was a lot of fun. As expected, about 8-9/10ths the "excitement" of my E60. I don't really get all the C&D complaining about it.

Yes. For example a 330i with the right options is a reasonably good 3 series in the context of its history and enthusiast expectations.

Well to be fair I don't think there is any current BMW product you've driven that you haven't liked or been able to rationalize. It's like someone who works for Coca Cola proclaiming their latest soda is really good.

[Raza]

Dude, you even acknowledge that your list has a ton of duds on it—you put the Mitsubishi Mirage on it!

And I didn't say that any of those cars don't count because they're Japanese. I did consider saying that, because Japanese cars generally drive like sardine tins and terrible ergonomics, but I wanted to keep it serious. I even acknowledged that the Accord is a very good example of the type of car I was taking about.

And no one said anything about "worth as a person". That sounds like a chip on the shoulder you've got there buddy. So much for your "take it easy, man, you can always get a Nissan Versa if you want a fun car with a manual" attitude.

Seriously though, you have an odd relationship with image. You need to accept that it matters to you. You just said in another thread how much you like looking at your car. You'd never say that if you drove the new Civic.

[2o6]

IDK I like the new Civic

[Raza]

IDK I like the new Civic

You're also like 23 years old.

[Xer0]

Maybe the plot hasn't been lost (at least in the M division). Just out, C&D M5 test:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-m5-test-review

It's been a while since C&D had a good thing to say about a BMW (excepting the M2 maybe - and the X1/X3):

"That makes the new M5 the quickest sedan we've ever tested, tying a Tesla Model S P90D to 60 mph but pulling ahead by 100 mph and in the quarter-mile. Turbo lag is absent, and the engine delivers instantaneous big whacks of power similar to a massive naturally aspirated engine. There's no slush in the gearbox, either; the torque converter locks up almost as soon as you get rolling."

"While the numbers are shocking, the new M5 has more going for it than numbers. There's a closer connection with the driver in this M5, one that isn't as overtly filtered through silicon chips and electronics. It's more amusing and less robotic than its predecessor. Unlike so many BMWs of late, the steering is lively and has some actual feedback. At the track, the M5 put up 0.98 g on the skidpad, and the front tires chatter and protest as they try to fight off understeer. It's a different story on the road, where the chassis exhibits balanced, lively, and secure handling that gives the impression that the M5 is smaller than it is. There's joy again in hustling the M5. You're in the game—and not just a spectator to a 21st-century display of technology."

"In spite of its all-wheel drive and automatic transmission, the M5 is a return to form. For the first time in a long time, we're lusting after a new M5. It might not be the pure and competition-bred sedan of its youth, but the new iteration has stopped placing technology over tactility and numbers over enjoyment. The technology is still present, but the whole car is better at integrating the tech and drawing the driver in. The performance data is more impressive than before, but the car is more than just something that generates an eye-popping test sheet. It's better to drive than its predecessor, which is something we haven't been able to say about an M5 since 2000."

I'd wait for the head to head.  C/D has a habbit of being very easy on first drive reviews then incredibly harsh on comparisons.  I do however love this RWD/AWD system in the M5/E63 though.

[MrH]

As Hector and MX pointed out, the manual take rate is smaller now than it used to be. How many people on this board of supposed enthusiasts even drive a manual car? Me. Rags. R0tor. MX. Alex?

Still quite a few here. Me, both Kevin's, Héctor, Tave.

But overall I agree with you. Not a ton of options anymore. My taste is getting more specific now though. As long as the Miata keeps being made with a manual I'm good. I'd love for it to be brought back on the 4Runner though.