Not understanding winter tires AND wheel package

Started by veeman, October 24, 2021, 12:57:28 PM

veeman

I often switch to winter tires in mid or late November. This year definitely going to do it because I have a FWD low to the ground hatchback (Veloster).  I've heard it's always better to get winter tires and dedicated wheels instead of just switching the tires on the OEM wheels.  I am not following this logic. 

Yes, it's easier to switch back and forth year after year and it's a bit cheaper to switch them back and forth every season. But... wheels are expensive.  Usually around a thousand dollars for a set of 4 very basic aluminum ones. You won't recoup that cost in the money saved when switching the tires even after several seasons.  So why should I invest in a set of 4 new wheels as well? 

FoMoJo

I see snow/winter tires on cheap steel rims usually.

Switching tires back and forth on the same rims, imo, could damage either the rims or the tires.
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veeman

#2
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 24, 2021, 01:16:54 PM
I see snow/winter tires on cheap steel rims usually.

Switching tires back and forth on the same rims, imo, could damage either the rims or the tires.


It's getting harder to find steel rims.  For reasons I don't know but I often can't find them for a particular car.  My 2013 Infiniti QX56 for example.  Show me where I can get steel rims for this car for OEM 22 inch tires.  Or even OEM 20 inch tires. 


Tires last me on average 2 to 3 years because I drive 25,000 miles/year and I like good tread :lol:  I'm not sure 4 to 6 switchovers would usually damage a tire at a competent tire shop.  My OEM wheels look like crap anyways  :lol:

CaminoRacer

Having a separate set of wheels allows you to change them in your driveway instead of going to a tire shop
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

FoMoJo

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2021, 02:53:04 PM
Having a separate set of wheels allows you to change them in your driveway instead of going to a tire shop
I'm guessing veeman doesn't do that sort of thing.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

veeman

Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2021, 02:53:04 PM
Having a separate set of wheels allows you to change them in your driveway instead of going to a tire shop
Quote from: FoMoJo on October 24, 2021, 04:19:14 PM
I'm guessing veeman doesn't do that sort of thing.


Hahaha.  Yeah, I honestly know how to change a tire and impressed my wife on our first date a few decades ago by doing that. But it's not something I do. 

Rich

2003 Mazda Miata 5MT; 2005 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport 4AT

veeman


MrH

Yeah, most people run smaller wheels for winter setup if you can just because it's cheaper.

Something like a QX56 can only go so small though.  I imagine the brake rotors are pretty big on that.
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Laconian

I had a set of G35 wheels with nice all seasons for my G37, since the G37 ran on Pilot Super Sports which are no good whatsoever in the cold.

They weren't that hard to swap. Unfortunately the wheels weren't as wide so it looked kind of fugly in the back.
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GoCougs

Quote from: veeman on October 24, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
I often switch to winter tires in mid or late November. This year definitely going to do it because I have a FWD low to the ground hatchback (Veloster).  I've heard it's always better to get winter tires and dedicated wheels instead of just switching the tires on the OEM wheels.  I am not following this logic. 

Yes, it's easier to switch back and forth year after year and it's a bit cheaper to switch them back and forth every season. But... wheels are expensive.  Usually around a thousand dollars for a set of 4 very basic aluminum ones. You won't recoup that cost in the money saved when switching the tires even after several seasons.  So why should I invest in a set of 4 new wheels as well?

IME the payoff is 4 seasons' worth of mount/unmount (~$1,000), so if you own the vehicle at least that long and always put snow tires on it in the winter, it's a wash to get snow wheels and if you own it longer, it's cheaper. Plus, you don't have to navigate the chaos of the tire shop every fall and spring, and your factory wheels will look better for longer (fewer mount/unmount cycles and less abuse from sand and/or de-icer).

For years I did buy snow tires only and have them swapped on/off the factory rims despite it being more expensive and a PITA. Thing is I love me my factory rims on my cars, esp. the G37 (and factory rims are hella expensive - like $500-600/ea, even used). Anyway, this year, for the first time, I bought a snow wheel/tire package (should be here Friday). I'm predicting even more chaos at service businesses and just don't want to deal, so I'll suffer wheels that aren't quite up to snuff.

Eye of the Tiger

I don't need no winter tire packages. My 30x9.50R15 all terrain tires have the three peak mountain snowflake thingy.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

veeman

#12
Quote from: GoCougs on October 25, 2021, 06:27:26 PM
IME the payoff is 4 seasons' worth of mount/unmount (~$1,000), so if you own the vehicle at least that long and always put snow tires on it in the winter, it's a wash to get snow wheels and if you own it longer, it's cheaper. Plus, you don't have to navigate the chaos of the tire shop every fall and spring, and your factory wheels will look better for longer (fewer mount/unmount cycles and less abuse from sand and/or de-icer).

For years I did buy snow tires only and have them swapped on/off the factory rims despite it being more expensive and a PITA. Thing is I love me my factory rims on my cars, esp. the G37 (and factory rims are hella expensive - like $500-600/ea, even used). Anyway, this year, for the first time, I bought a snow wheel/tire package (should be here Friday). I'm predicting even more chaos at service businesses and just don't want to deal, so I'll suffer wheels that aren't quite up to snuff.

Thanks

I had a winter steel wheel/tire package on my 2007 Hyundai Sonata which I used for a few years.  When I gave the car to my nephew and then replaced it with a leased 2017 Toyota Camry, the first year I used the same winter steel wheel/tire package.  The Toyota dealer swapped them.  The next year I tried to use them again and went to the local independent shop I often go to.  They told me I can't use the wheels and that the dealer which had swapped them the year before shouldn't have done that.  Apparently the bore size requirements for the wheel are different between the two cars.  So I had to buy 4 more steel wheels. 

I tried to get steel wheels for my 2013 Infiniti QX56.  Can't get them.  22 in or 20 in wheels.  Couldn't find them anywhere.  Cost for 4 cheapest basic aluminum wheels is @ $1200 before tax. Screw that.  That's more expensive than 4 new tires.  Anyways didn't really matter because I ended up not swapping tires ever in that car.  Just get new all seasons every 2 years because tread life on the 22 in tires sucks anyways.

Now I'm going to swap out tires for my 2019 Hyundai Veloster.  My OEM wheels are all scuffed because of curbs but that doesn't bother me.  I think I'll just swap out the tires and not buy 4 new wheels.  As it is I have 8 steel wheels in my basement (from my prior Sonata and Camry).  I doubt they would fit on my Veloster but will have to verify with the independent shop I go to. 

GoCougs

Quote from: veeman on October 26, 2021, 07:47:39 AM
Thanks

I had a winter steel wheel/tire package on my 2009 Hyundai Sonata which I used for a few years.  When I gave the car to my nephew and then replaced it with a leased 2017 Toyota Camry, the first year I used the same winter steel wheel/tire package.  The Toyota dealer swapped them.  The next year I tried to use them again and went to the local independent shop I often go to.  They told me I can't use the wheels and that the dealer which had swapped them the year before shouldn't have done that.  Apparently the bore size requirements for the wheel are different between the two cars.  So I had to buy 4 more steel wheels. 

I tried to get steel wheels for my 2013 Infiniti QX56.  Can't get them.  22 in or 20 in wheels.  Couldn't find them anywhere.  Cost for 4 cheapest basic aluminum wheels is @ $1200 before tax. Screw that.  That's more expensive than 4 new tires.  Anyways didn't really matter because I ended up not swapping tires ever in that car.  Just get new all seasons every 2 years because tread life on the 22 in tires sucks anyways.

Now I'm going to swap out tires for my 2019 Hyundai Veloster.  My OEM wheels are all scuffed because of curbs but that doesn't bother me.  I think I'll just swap out the tires and not buy 4 new wheels.  As it is I have 8 steel wheels in my basement (from my prior Sonata and Camry).  I doubt they would fit on my Veloster but will have to verify with the independent shop I go to.

I personally don't use steel. Have done so in the past. The bead can rust and cause leak issues. I suspect that steel does not lend itself to larger diameter wheels due to flex or maybe weight. 

Have you tried TireRack? My new vehicle has 20" rims and they had lots of options in stock at less than $250/ea. Turns out I should receive everything today.

If I own the car for 6 years, I figure I'll save ~$500 by using winter wheels, and lots of time screwing with tire shops. I'll just have to suffer cheap-ish looking wheels on the car.

veeman

Quote from: GoCougs on October 26, 2021, 10:51:26 AM
I personally don't use steel. Have done so in the past. The bead can rust and cause leak issues. I suspect that steel does not lend itself to larger diameter wheels due to flex or maybe weight. 

Have you tried TireRack? My new vehicle has 20" rims and they had lots of options in stock at less than $250/ea. Turns out I should receive everything today.

If I own the car for 6 years, I figure I'll save ~$500 by using winter wheels, and lots of time screwing with tire shops. I'll just have to suffer cheap-ish looking wheels on the car.

Thanks.

Yeah I've used tirerack a lot in the past.  Decisions...

autokomppania

For me, I prefer narrower tires for winter conditions. They grip better in snowy and slushy conditions. For XC90, I have 19" summer tires and 17" winter tires,  more secure and comfortable solution in my opinion.

veeman

Quote from: autokomppania on October 27, 2021, 01:26:40 AM
For me, I prefer narrower tires for winter conditions. They grip better in snowy and slushy conditions. For XC90, I have 19" summer tires and 17" winter tires,  more secure and comfortable solution in my opinion.

Thanks.  Maybe I'll get 16 in cheap wheels with winter tires.  OEM is 17 in wheels.  I don't have much sidewall with the OEM wheels/tires and I'd prefer more in the winter (lots of potholes in the Northeast U.S.)

MX793

When I put snows on my Mazda3, which had 17s as OEM, I went with 16" steelies and taller profile tires.
Needs more Jiggawatts

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r0tor

Generally when getting a winter package you get a smaller wheel size which results in cheaper tires, a larger sidewall to absorb pothole impacts, saves your regular wheels from winter abuse and potholes, saves your regular wheels from getting damaged by the tire shop 2x per year, and can swap at your convenience without having to pay for mounting/balancing..

If you don't have storage for a separate set of wheels, can swap your own wheels, and don't care about your OEM wheels - then there is no advantage really
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Soup DeVille

Lots of shops also offer a winter tire/wheel storage plan at reasonable rates.

I've never done it, but it seems like a decent option.
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veeman

#20
Quote from: r0tor on October 27, 2021, 10:40:30 AM
Generally when getting a winter package you get a smaller wheel size which results in cheaper tires, a larger sidewall to absorb pothole impacts, saves your regular wheels from winter abuse and potholes, saves your regular wheels from getting damaged by the tire shop 2x per year, and can swap at your convenience without having to pay for mounting/balancing..

If you don't have storage for a separate set of wheels, can swap your own wheels, and don't care about your OEM wheels - then there is no advantage really
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 27, 2021, 12:07:39 PM
Lots of shops also offer a winter tire/wheel storage plan at reasonable rates.

I've never done it, but it seems like a decent option.

Thanks.  I have plenty of space (own house with unfinished basement and attached garage).  I have 8 steel wheels already in storage from prior Sonata and Camry.  What's another 4  :lol:

Maybe I'll put the steelies I already have on Craigslist.

My OEMs look like crap.  When I bought the car, two of the wheels were already curbed.  I proceeded to curb the other two.  Don't care.  They're Hyundai wheels.  Not readily apparent unless specifically looking at the wheels from close up.

It's mostly a cost issue I'm wondering whether it's worth it when I don't keep tires for more than 2 or 3 years because I drive a lot and like good tread. 

Although the higher side wall height of a winter tire with a smaller wheel may just be worth it.

GoCougs

Welp, just as predicted from the buying experience (idiot didn't correctly record my credit card #, address or delivery address), the wheels showed up with the wheel offset wrong by at least 1/2" - so much so the tires poke out from the fender edge (which will wreck the paint) and probably screw up traction and stability control. TireRack swore they offset was correct. Jesus.

Morris Minor

First taste of shitty winter weather here in N. GA.: cold, wet, leaves making the mountain roads slick. The G37 feels totally planted on the Michelin Crossclimate2s I had put on a few months ago - really happy with them. It always felt twitchy & nervous on whatever I had on there before.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

veeman

Got the tire/wheel winter package from Town Fair Tire, a Northeast US tire chain store. Tirerack annoys me because they don't even have steel wheels listed on their website and can't easily search for them.  Plus most/all tire chain stores can pretty closely match the Tirerack price and sometimes beat it.  Anyways got 16 inch steel wheels (OEM is 17 inch) and Michelin Ice X winter tires.  Last few days it's been warm (around 50-60 deg F) and the car feels very squirrely, more than I expected from my past experience with dedicated snow tires.  Maybe because they look undersized for the car and I'm used to taking onramps/offramps faster in the Veloster than I had on my prior Sonata and Camry for which I also had snow tires on in the winter.  I have to take turns and ramps at 3/4 the speed I'm used to.  Oh well. It'll be worth it I'm sure when the temp hits below freezing and the snow falls. I used to love overtaking slow ass AWD SUVs on local roads in my Sonata in winters past.  Very few people put them on their cars in the tristate area outside New York City. Also I think a lot of people think their big ass offroad tires on their brodozers and Jeeps are great in the winter when in actuality they suck as winter tires.


veeman

Quote from: GoCougs on November 03, 2021, 03:55:06 PM
Welp, just as predicted from the buying experience (idiot didn't correctly record my credit card #, address or delivery address), the wheels showed up with the wheel offset wrong by at least 1/2" - so much so the tires poke out from the fender edge (which will wreck the paint) and probably screw up traction and stability control. TireRack swore they offset was correct. Jesus.

I'm assuming they'll ship you out four new wheels for free with the correct offset.  Pain in the ass situation.

GoCougs

Actually, turns out that the SQ5 has a goofy rim width+offset combo. Literally no one makes such a rim, except of course Audi. I don't trust TireRack to specify a narrower/smaller wheel with the correspondingly correct offset, and don't want to guess and go through this BS again. Audi does offer a winter wheel/tire combo but the MSRP is $3,200 and they're smaller and the wheels look cheap:  https://parts.audiusa.com/p/Audi_2020_SQ5/Winter-Wheel-and-Tire-Package/71682080/NPN071070.html.

So, the resolution was just buying the X-Ice tires from TireRack and returning the wheel/tires for a credit. I'll just get 'em swapped on/off the car for now. Turns out the dealer does tire stuff, which I trust way more to not damage such big rims vs. the local tire shop. As to the tires, I've had many snow tires, and the X-Ice are by far the best for pavement performance. I've had some (Bridgestone, and a long time ago, studded tires) that were literally dangerous on wet pavement.

MrH

Why not just calculate the offset and size yourself?  It's not hard.
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GoCougs

What are the most important aspect(s) for wheel sizes to ensure all works as designed esp. stability control and the rear sport diff, all under the guise of a performance AWD system? Is it scrub radius? Is it track width? Or? There's no way I'd know or be able to calculate that. The closest I'd get to that is knowing the wheel dims of the Audi factory winter wheel/tire package, and just duplicating that, if available in the aftermarket. I didn't see the info readily from Audi available so I lost interest. I'm also not super interested in smaller, narrower wheels even if the right fit, just from a vanity standpoint.

MrH

#28
Quote from: GoCougs on November 15, 2021, 09:15:54 AM
What are the most important aspect(s) for wheel sizes to ensure all works as designed esp. stability control and the rear sport diff, all under the guise of a performance AWD system? Is it scrub radius? Is it track width? Or? There's no way I'd know or be able to calculate that. The closest I'd get to that is knowing the wheel dims of the Audi factory winter wheel/tire package, and just duplicating that, if available in the aftermarket. I didn't see the info readily from Audi available so I lost interest. I'm also not super interested in smaller, narrower wheels even if the right fit, just from a vanity standpoint.

Those systems are measuring wheel speed, steering angle, yaw rates, lateral acceleration, etc.  Those are all outputs based on handling characteristics that are in part, driven by what wheels and tires are on the vehicle.  For example, a vehicle might work best with a certain tire width, but if you go narrower, it's not like stability control is going to lose it's mind because the tire width is hardcoded into the algorithm and they don't match.  Those aren't variables in those systems.  They just affect the variables that are taken into consideration.
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GoCougs

Quote from: MrH on November 15, 2021, 09:29:42 AM
Those systems are measuring wheel speed, steering angle, yaw rates, lateral acceleration, etc.  Those are all outputs based on handling characteristics that are in part, driven by what wheels and tires are on the vehicle.  For example, a vehicle might work best with a certain tire width, but if you go narrower, it's not like stability control is going to lose it's mind because the tire width is hardcoded into the algorithm and they don't match.  Those aren't variables in those systems.  They just affect the variables that are taken into consideration.

But the inputs and response of the vehicle will be affected by wheel dims. Surely the system allows for some variation due to wear and tire compounds, etc., but I don't know how sensitive the system is, esp. with the sport diff, I'm not going to take the chance. A Camry or some such I wouldn't sweat it.