BMW 328i vs Infinit G35 in C&D recent test

[1 BAD 7]

The BMW 328i won the head to head comparison against the Infinti G35.? The price of 328i and G35 was very close and I guess that is why they didnot compare a 335i. Either way BMW won.

[TheIntrepid]

Thanks.

Care to provide any more details?

[giant_mtb]

...okay...

[Raghavan]

Congrats...

[Submariner]

OM6 t3h BMW i5 t3h 1337 pWnZor!

[850CSi]

OM6 t3h BMW i5 t3h 1337 pWnZor!

+1 

[ifcar]

Thanks.

Care to provide any more details?

Last October in our G35 road test, we wrote that "if you don't need BMW cachet, this ride has everything else." Let us now amend that statement, because there is one item in shortfall on the G35 that the Bimmer has in abundance: refinement...

...Spending other people's money is easy, and the BMW definitely demands more. But nothing in our testing indicates that it isn't worth it.

BMW 328i: 223 points
Infiniti G35 Sport: 216 points

0-60:
328i: 6.1 seconds
G35: 5.5 seconds

Quarter Mile:
328i: 14.8 seconds @ 95 mph
G35: 14.1 seconds @ 101 mpg

70-0:
328i: 160 feet
G35: 162 feet

Skidpad:
328i: .88g
G35: .84g

Lane Change:
328i: 68.8 mph
G35: 70.1 mpg

[Raghavan]

So basically it's a wash and the G didn't lose too badly considering it's kinda old and only got a refresh this year.

[MX793]

The base prices were within $200 of each other, but the BMW ended up being over $1500 more as tested, and it didn't have as many ammenities as the Infiniti (the Infiniti had a Nav system, the Bimmer didn't).

As you might expect, the Infiniti destroyed the BMW in all of the acceleration tests except for 0-30.  The BMW had a slight edge in braking (2 ft) and pulled slightly more gs on the skidpad (0.84 vs 0.88), but was slower in the lane-change maneuver by over a mph.  I suspect the Bimmer's wider rear tires helped in those areas.

The main gripe against the Infiniti was refinement.  The engine was a bit coarse and the NVH wasn't as good as the Bimmers smaller displacement I6 (not surprising).  The BMW had a quieter interior at idle, cruise, and WOT.  They also felt the suspension in the G wasn't quite as refined as the BMW's, not soaking up the potholes quite as well.

[ifcar]

So basically it's a wash and the G didn't lose too badly considering it's kinda old and only got a refresh this year.

It's a full redesign AFAIK.

[Raghavan]

Oh, nevermind then.

[Catman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the G35 a bit larger than the BMW?

*Edit* I just looked and they're about the same size

[ro51092]

Well, I can't argue with C&D.

[MX793]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the G35 a bit larger than the BMW?

*Edit* I just looked and they're about the same size

The G is actually closer to the 5 series in length.

[Submariner]

+1 

[TheIntrepid]

Oh I know the details... I get C&D. I was just pointing out that he posts one damn sentence... bloody troll.

[TBR]

Yeah, and that little price difference is more than $2000 once you factor in the expense of the nav system.

[1 BAD 7]

You welcome 

Why dont you buy the mag and read it. :P

Thanks.

Care to provide any more details?

[1 BAD 7]

I posted on liner so you could get your panties in a bunch bloody loser

If you have a magazine why dont you post the damn data instead of rolling eyes like an idiot.

Oh I know the details... I get C&D. I was just pointing out that he posts one damn sentence... bloody troll.

[1 BAD 7]

I think besides refinement BMW 328i has a clear edge in weight and has far better weight dist % over G35. Which all has effect on purer driving dynamics MX793.

The base prices were within $200 of each other, but the BMW ended up being over $1500 more as tested, and it didn't have as many ammenities as the Infiniti (the Infiniti had a Nav system, the Bimmer didn't).

As you might expect, the Infiniti destroyed the BMW in all of the acceleration tests except for 0-30.? The BMW had a slight edge in braking (2 ft) and pulled slightly more gs on the skidpad (0.84 vs 0.88), but was slower in the lane-change maneuver by over a mph.? I suspect the Bimmer's wider rear tires helped in those areas.

The main gripe against the Infiniti was refinement.? The engine was a bit coarse and the NVH wasn't as good as the Bimmers smaller displacement I6 (not surprising).? The BMW had a quieter interior at idle, cruise, and WOT.? They also felt the suspension in the G wasn't quite as refined as the BMW's, not soaking up the potholes quite as well.

[MX793]

I think besides refinement BMW 328i has a clear edge in weight and has far better weight dist % over G35. Which all has effect on purer driving dynamics MX793.

The fact that the G pulled a faster lane-change maneuver and C&D managed to get their best run in only their 3rd try (took them quite a few attempts with the BMW) says a lot about the G's driving dynamics.  A 3% forward weight bias really isn't something most people will notice from the seat of their pants, certainly not "far worse".  Technically it's not as good as a 50/50 split, but I think "far worse" is a bit of an overstatement.  Frankly, I think people put a little too much emphasis on the static weight distributions.  It's really not as important to the handling dynamics as a quantity like the polar moment of inertia, which will govern a car's eagerness to yaw and change direction.  People rave about the handling of cars like the Mazda Protege MPS and Mini Cooper and both of them have horribly front biased static weight distributions (60%+ over the front wheels).  These cars can even hang with or beat vehicles that have "perfect" 50/50 weight distributions in the slalom and around a skidpad.  Obviously, there's more to it than just the static weight distribution.

[1 BAD 7]

I think you are trying to down play the importance of well balanced chassis and lighter weight. I disagree with your opinion that it is "not as important". I think it is very important for good driving dynamics lighter and better balanced car will always have an edge over heavier and poorly balanced cars.

As for 3% difference in weight dist % is nothing to sneez at.  I think you are down playing the emphasis here again just looking at pure figures one can tell that G35 is carrying 53% of a 3620 Ib over front wheels. Which  translates into appx. 1918 Ib over  the front wheels of G35 vs  1699 for the BMW 328i at 49.7%.

The G35 has extra 219 Ib hanging over its front wheels compared to the BMW 328i. Which no matter how much suspension tweaking will still show up when you will be pushing the car near 9/10th or 10/10th. That extra weight will casue the front to plow thru corners and the car will not have as quick of reflexes as a 219 Ib lighter car. It will also effect braking and acceleration in negative fashion given both cars in ideal situation are wearing similar brakes as well as engine. But over all weight dist % and lighter weight is very important to any cars pure driving dynamics.

The point is plain and simple BMW 328i  has slight edge in handling thank to better driving dynamics. It also has steering precision, braking, outright grip and solid built as well as more tolerant suspension that absorbs the imperfections and rough roads better then G35. Now this smoother suspension could again be due to the fact that 328i is lighter and has better weight dist % and thus its suspension doesnot need to be as stiff as the G35's. Because to hide the G35's weight they had to make its suspension more stiff for handling reasons.


I on the other hand would not argue if someone said that G35 is more roomy and offers more power for slightly less money. It is indeed a slightly roomy car and great bargain for the money. Specialy if you want a 300hp sedan. If someone for those reasons would pick it over a 328i it would make perfect sense to me. But as far as over all better driving dynamcis go lighter cars always feel more pure and are better when pushed to the limit with regards to handling.

The fact that the G pulled a faster lane-change maneuver and C&D managed to get their best run in only their 3rd try (took them quite a few attempts with the BMW) says a lot about the G's driving dynamics.  A 3% forward weight bias really isn't something most people will notice from the seat of their pants, certainly not "far worse".  Technically it's not as good as a 50/50 split, but I think "far worse" is a bit of an overstatement.  Frankly, I think people put a little too much emphasis on the static weight distributions.  It's really not as important to the handling dynamics as a quantity like the polar moment of inertia, which will govern a car's eagerness to yaw and change direction.  People rave about the handling of cars like the Mazda Protege MPS and Mini Cooper and both of them have horribly front biased static weight distributions (60%+ over the front wheels).  These cars can even hang with or beat vehicles that have "perfect" 50/50 weight distributions in the slalom and around a skidpad.  Obviously, there's more to it than just the static weight distribution.

[850CSi]

The G35 has extra 219 Ib hanging over its front wheels compared to the BMW 328i. Which no matter how much suspension tweaking will still show up when you will be pushing the car near 9/10th or 10/10th. That extra weight will casue the front to plow thru corners and the car will not have as quick of reflexes as a 219 Ib lighter car. It will also effect braking and acceleration in negative fashion given both cars in ideal situation are wearing similar brakes as well as engine. But over all weight dist % and lighter weight is very important to any cars pure driving dynamics.

I think that's a bit of an overstatement.

[ro51092]

I think that's a bit of an overstatement.

werd

[MX793]

I think you are trying to down play the importance of well balanced chassis and lighter weight. I disagree with your opinion that it is "not as important". I think it is very important for good driving dynamics lighter and better balanced car will always have an edge over heavier and poorly balanced cars.

The BMW's lighter weight certainly was to its advantage, I never said otherwise.  Less mass is always good for performance.  What I said was that people put too much emphasis on the static weight distribution.  Static weight distribution does not tell you as much about the driving dynamics as people like to think it does.  This is evident by the number of great handling cars that have weight distributions than are far from "perfect" 50/50, much farther than 3%.  All that one can really ascertain from a static weight distribution is how much weight is carried by each wheel when the car is in a static state and where the CG is located relative to the wheels.  It tells you nothing about how the weight is carried by the car.  For instance, it's possible to have a car with a 50/50 distribution that acheives this weight split by having a lot of weight in the very nose and a lot of weight on the very tail to balance it without much weight in center or one can get a 50/50 distribution by keeping the mass more centralized (putting all of the heavy components near the center of the car).  The car with the more centralized mass is going to handle much better on account of a lower moment of inertia, even if the two have the same total weight.  Polar moment of inertia is a much more important quantity when it comes to handling dynamics than the static weight distribution, particularly when you are talking about weight distribution differences that are less than 5%.

To give you a better idea of the importance of PMI, try this at home.  Take a 12 inch ruler and tape a stack of 8 quarters (or two stacks of 4, one on top and one on bottom) to the very center.  Grasp the ruler at the center and turn your wrist and feel how much it resists torque from your wrist.  Now remove the quarters and split them up so you have 4 taped at each end of the ruler.  Now grasp it in the center and turn your wrist.  Is it easier or harder than before?  Now consider that in both scenarios, the total weight of the ruler is the same, as is the static weight distribution as measured at the ruler's endpoints (50/50 in both cases).  The only difference is the polar moment of inertia.

As for 3% difference in weight dist % is nothing to sneez at.  I think you are down playing the emphasis here again just looking at pure figures one can tell that G35 is carrying 53% of a 3620 Ib over front wheels. Which  translates into appx. 1918 Ib over  the front wheels of G35 vs  1699 for the BMW 328i at 49.7%.

The G is simply a heavier car.  Even if it had a "perfect" 50/50 weight split, it still would have been carrying extra poundage in the triple digits over its front wheels.

The G35 has extra 219 Ib hanging over its front wheels compared to the BMW 328i. Which no matter how much suspension tweaking will still show up when you will be pushing the car near 9/10th or 10/10th. That extra weight will casue the front to plow thru corners and the car will not have as quick of reflexes as a 219 Ib lighter car.

The shear added mass will put a damper on a car's responses all around, but I don't think one can really definitively say that solely carrying a couple of extra percent over the front wheels will result in worse understeer.  There are many causes for understeer that go beyond static weight distribution.  Tire sizes, tire compounds, wheel camber, anti-roll bar stiffnesses, and polar moment of inertia are all larger factors.  If any of these parameters are off, it's possible to have a car with even a 50/50 weight split that plows the front end like a bulldozer.

It will also effect braking and acceleration in negative fashion given both cars in ideal situation are wearing similar brakes as well as engine.

Now this is a valid argument about static weight distributions.  Indeed, a more rearward weight bias has many benefits in straight-line performance aspects.  It provides greater static traction at the drive wheels for a RWD car, allowing for a better launch from a dead stop.  Carrying weight more rearward also allows the rear wheels to carry more of the braking duty, which is a definate plus.

But over all weight dist % and lighter weight is very important to any cars pure driving dynamics.

Lighter weight, absolutely.  Static weight distribution, while not a negligible quantity, is something I think people put a little too much emphasis on.  It is not quite as telling as a lot of people think when it comes to handling characteristics.

The point is plain and simple BMW 328i  has slight edge in handling thank to better driving dynamics.

Consider this:  It took C&D 13 tries to get the best run out of the BMW in the lane change maneuver (a test of driving dynamics).  In their 3rd attempt with the Infiniti, they beat out the BMW's best.  What does that say about "driving dynamics"?  In looking at other test data collected from the current gen 3 series and the latest G35, I'm led to believe that their handling capabilities are seperated by a margin that is paper-thin.

It also has steering precision, braking, outright grip...

The funny thing about data collected in tests is that it rarely repeats when you repeat the tests.  In MT's comparison between the latest G35 and the current gen 3er (a 330i for their test), the G outbraked the Bimmer by the same margin that the BMW beat the Infiniti by in this test.  On the skidpad, the two recorded the same outright lateral grip.  On the figure 8, they got the same time with the Infiniti maintaining a slightly higher average lateral g.  But, while the Infiniti beat the Bimmer in C&D's lane change test by a mph, the Bimmer beat the Infiniti in MT's slalom by the same amount.  Like I said before, the margin between the capabilities of these two cars is paper thin.  The deciding factors here came down to finer details.  Refinement, namely.

...and solid built as well as more tolerant suspension that absorbs the imperfections and rough roads better then G35. Now this smoother suspension could again be due to the fact that 328i is lighter and has better weight dist % and thus its suspension doesnot need to be as stiff as the G35's. Because to hide the G35's weight they had to make its suspension more stiff for handling reasons.

Solidly built as defined by what?  Chassis stiffness?

The more tolerant suspension I think is due in part to the BMW's lighter weight.  I also think that BMW just has a magic touch when it comes to suspension tuning.  They also just seem to know how to create excellent steering feel.

[1 BAD 7]

MX793 I never said that polar moment of inertia is not an important factor. It is an important factor and so is weight dist%.  As for the rest we seem to be in agreement that lighter is better regardless. The point is plain and simple carrying more weight up front vs the back will have an effect on the cars overall driving dynamics regardless of how small or big you want to believe otherwise. Much the same way lighter weight, polar moment of inertia and lower CG as well as tire and suspension setup has on cars over all driving dynamics.

As for figure eight test track results I think for BMW to be grossly underpowered and still beat the G35 on track goes to show that it has handling edge. Once again I think both magazines no matter how big or small the margin was perfered the BMW at the limit of handling and found it more composed and stable.

This is not taking away anything from G35. I think it just comes back to the fact that G35 is a larger car and thus acts like it. I think even BMW's own in house 5 series would not be able to handle as sharp as the 3 series. Because at the end of the day it weighs more then the 3 series. That is why I have often said that when you drive a 525i vs 545i for some reason despite wearing smaller rubber it feels more agile and nimble and I truly perfer its overall handling over the V8 5 series. No matter how much the engineers tweak the suspension etc. at the end of the day you still have that big ol V8 hanging over the front wheels.


Anyways to me a better car is the one that is better balanced and lighter. But then again life is full of compromises if you want more power and room you have to deal with more bulky cars. Because the bigger the engine and the roomy the car the more mass it will have.

The BMW's lighter weight certainly was to its advantage, I never said otherwise.? Less mass is always good for performance.? What I said was that people put too much emphasis on the static weight distribution.? Static weight distribution does not tell you as much about the driving dynamics as people like to think it does.? This is evident by the number of great handling cars that have weight distributions than are far from "perfect" 50/50, much farther than 3%.? All that one can really ascertain from a static weight distribution is how much weight is carried by each wheel when the car is in a static state and where the CG is located relative to the wheels.? It tells you nothing about how the weight is carried by the car.? For instance, it's possible to have a car with a 50/50 distribution that acheives this weight split by having a lot of weight in the very nose and a lot of weight on the very tail to balance it without much weight in center or one can get a 50/50 distribution by keeping the mass more centralized (putting all of the heavy components near the center of the car).? The car with the more centralized mass is going to handle much better on account of a lower moment of inertia, even if the two have the same total weight.? Polar moment of inertia is a much more important quantity when it comes to handling dynamics than the static weight distribution, particularly when you are talking about weight distribution differences that are less than 5%.

To give you a better idea of the importance of PMI, try this at home.? Take a 12 inch ruler and tape a stack of 8 quarters (or two stacks of 4, one on top and one on bottom) to the very center.? Grasp the ruler at the center and turn your wrist and feel how much it resists torque from your wrist.? Now remove the quarters and split them up so you have 4 taped at each end of the ruler.? Now grasp it in the center and turn your wrist.? Is it easier or harder than before?? Now consider that in both scenarios, the total weight of the ruler is the same, as is the static weight distribution as measured at the ruler's endpoints (50/50 in both cases).? The only difference is the polar moment of inertia.

The G is simply a heavier car.? Even if it had a "perfect" 50/50 weight split, it still would have been carrying extra poundage in the triple digits over its front wheels.

The shear added mass will put a damper on a car's responses all around, but I don't think one can really definitively say that solely carrying a couple of extra percent over the front wheels will result in worse understeer.? There are many causes for understeer that go beyond static weight distribution.? Tire sizes, tire compounds, wheel camber, anti-roll bar stiffnesses, and polar moment of inertia are all larger factors.? If any of these parameters are off, it's possible to have a car with even a 50/50 weight split that plows the front end like a bulldozer.

Now this is a valid argument about static weight distributions.? Indeed, a more rearward weight bias has many benefits in straight-line performance aspects.? It provides greater static traction at the drive wheels for a RWD car, allowing for a better launch from a dead stop.? Carrying weight more rearward also allows the rear wheels to carry more of the braking duty, which is a definate plus.

Lighter weight, absolutely.? Static weight distribution, while not a negligible quantity, is something I think people put a little too much emphasis on.? It is not quite as telling as a lot of people think when it comes to handling characteristics.

Consider this:? It took C&D 13 tries to get the best run out of the BMW in the lane change maneuver (a test of driving dynamics).? In their 3rd attempt with the Infiniti, they beat out the BMW's best.? What does that say about "driving dynamics"?? In looking at other test data collected from the current gen 3 series and the latest G35, I'm led to believe that their handling capabilities are seperated by a margin that is paper-thin.

The funny thing about data collected in tests is that it rarely repeats when you repeat the tests.? In MT's comparison between the latest G35 and the current gen 3er (a 330i for their test), the G outbraked the Bimmer by the same margin that the BMW beat the Infiniti by in this test.? On the skidpad, the two recorded the same outright lateral grip.? On the figure 8, they got the same time with the Infiniti maintaining a slightly higher average lateral g.? But, while the Infiniti beat the Bimmer in C&D's lane change test by a mph, the Bimmer beat the Infiniti in MT's slalom by the same amount.? Like I said before, the margin between the capabilities of these two cars is paper thin.? The deciding factors here came down to finer details.? Refinement, namely.

Solidly built as defined by what?? Chassis stiffness?

The more tolerant suspension I think is due in part to the BMW's lighter weight.? I also think that BMW just has a magic touch when it comes to suspension tuning.? They also just seem to know how to create excellent steering feel.

[MX793]

As for figure eight test track results I think for BMW to be grossly underpowered and still beat the G35 on track goes to show that it has handling edge. Once again I think both magazines no matter how big or small the margin was perfered the BMW at the limit of handling and found it more composed and stable.

The figure 8 test isn't a test of power or straight line speed, it's a cornering/handling test.  Horsepower really doesn't have a great deal to do with it, which is apparent when you look at the times posted by various cars.  A 500 hp GT500 is only 3/10ths faster around the figure 8 than a far less powerful G35 or 330i.  A Mazdaspeed3, which is quicker than a 330i in a straight line by virtue of a better power/weight ratio is half a second slower in the figure 8.  A 400 hp GTO tested slower still.

And I'm actually not really arguing that the G35 should have won.  The BMW certainly has its merits and advantages over the G35 and at the end of the day, the folks at C&D favored what the BMW brought to the party over the Infiniti and in their opinion it was the better car overall.  That's fine with me. 

[AudiMan2001]

It isn't over yet ... there's still needs to be a comparo between the now-King-again 3 series vs '08 CTS.  I think that comparison test will be alot closer

[1 BAD 7]

I agree that figure 8 is about cornering/handling more then power. However, power does have an effect on the outcome of the results. It might not be as dominant as the handling and agility but brakes/acceleration still effect the overall out come even on figure 8.

For example this can be proven if both cars that were identical in weight, weight dist%, and handling are put to test on figure 8. Where one has an edge in braking/acceleration efficency. The difference might not be huge due to similar overall weight, weight dist% and handling. But none the less more efficient acceleration and braking advantage will show up no matter how small.


As for what car wins over another is just braging rights for certain owners based on those specific merits that were being given bigger emphasis by people that were testing these cars. In real world every person has different taste and different priorities by which they make their buying choices. For some G35 will be winner and for others it will be BMW 3 series. I know for me if money was not a big issue it would be BMW 3 series. But if money was a big issue it would be Infiniti G35. They are both real fine cars and you cant go wrong with either car.

Infact I am even liking the all new MB C class. When it comes down to it the competition is so close now that regardless of who you go with from Lexus to BMW you get a very sweet car.

The figure 8 test isn't a test of power or straight line speed, it's a cornering/handling test.? Horsepower really doesn't have a great deal to do with it, which is apparent when you look at the times posted by various cars.? A 500 hp GT500 is only 3/10ths faster around the figure 8 than a far less powerful G35 or 330i.? A Mazdaspeed3, which is quicker than a 330i in a straight line by virtue of a better power/weight ratio is half a second slower in the figure 8.? A 400 hp GTO tested slower still.

And I'm actually not really arguing that the G35 should have won.? The BMW certainly has its merits and advantages over the G35 and at the end of the day, the folks at C&D favored what the BMW brought to the party over the Infiniti and in their opinion it was the better car overall.? That's fine with me.?

[TheIntrepid]

I posted on liner so you could get your panties in a bunch bloody loser

If you have a magazine why dont you post the damn data instead of rolling eyes like an idiot.

Too lazy. If you care enough to make the thread, post the damn data. Whenever I make a thread, I post the data in it.