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Auto Talk => General Automotive => Topic started by: S204STi on October 10, 2008, 08:47:36 PM

Title: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: S204STi on October 10, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
G.M. and Chrysler Explore Merger (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/business/11auto.html?hp)

By BILL VLASIC
Published: October 10, 2008
DETROIT ? General Motors is in preliminary talks about a possible merger with Chrysler, a deal that could drastically remake the landscape of the auto industry by reducing the Big Three of Detroit automakers to the Big Two.

The talks between G.M. and Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity firm that owns Chrysler, began more than a month ago, and the negotiations are not certain to produce a deal. Two people close to the process said the chances of a merger were ?50-50? as of Friday and would most likely still take weeks to work out.

A merger would be a historic event, with two of the most iconic names in American industry coming together to survive in an increasingly difficult environment. Both have roots dating back decades in Detroit and, with Ford, long dominated the auto industry ? until Japanese and other foreign car makers began making inroads into the American market.

The auto industry is being pummeled from all sides ? by high gas prices that have soured consumers on profitable S.U.V.?s, by a softening economy that has scared shoppers away from showrooms, and by tight credit that is making it difficult for willing buyers to obtain loans. Both G.M. and Chrysler have been struggling with product lineups that are out of sync with consumer demand for smaller, more fuel-efficient cars.

General Motors? stock has fallen from more than $42 a share last year to less than $5, and it is burning through its cash hoard at a rapid rate. Chrysler, as a private company, no longer needs to report its finances.

The meetings between General Motors and Cerberus began more than a month ago, said people familiar with the discussions, and the companies have held several talks involving their most senior executives. Given that both G.M. and Chrysler are struggling, the two sides may determine a merger may not be in their best interests.

The exploratory talks have included debates over various calculations of the savings that would result from a merger, these people said, but neither side has yet to dig into each others? private financial books and records.

At the same time, Cerberus is continuing to hold talks with other automakers including Nissan and Renault, said people familiar with the discussions. It is unclear at what stage those discussions have reached.

Speculation about a possible bankruptcy filing by G.M. has mounted in recent weeks because of the automaker?s dwindling cash reserves. The automaker had $21 billion in cash on hand at the end of the second quarter, but it was burning through more than $1 billion a month.

The credit rating firm Standard & Poor?s put G.M. on negative credit watch on Thursday.

But G.M. has said it is confident that it can increase its liquidity, and emphasized in a statement released Thursday that it was not considering a bankruptcy filing.

G.M. once commanded about 50 percent of market, but its share so far this year has fallen to 22 percent, according to the research firm Autodata. Chrysler had a market share of about 15 percent before acquisition in 1998 by Daimler, but its share this year has dwindled to 11 percent.

How government and labor react to a potential merger of G.M. and Chrysler is unclear. There could be antitrust questions raised, but political issues could be overshadowed by the precarious financial prospects of both automakers.

If G.M., the nation?s largest automaker, combined operations with Chrysler, the smallest of Detroit?s Big Three, they would create an auto giant that would surpass Japan?s Toyota Motor Company, which recently has been battling G.M. for bragging rights as the world?s largest automaker.

A G.M. spokesman declined to comment on any specific talks with Chrysler. ?Without referencing this specific rumor, as we?ve often said G.M. officials routinely discuss issues of mutual interest with other automakers,? said the spokesman, Tony Cervone. There was no immediate comment from Cerberus.

People briefed on the deal said the talks started as an exploration of possible joint venture opportunities between G.M. and Chrysler.

Cerberus acquired an 80.1 percent stake in Chrysler in August 2007 for $7.4 billion from the German automaker Daimler AG.

Under the terms of the deal being discussed, Cerberus would end up owning an unspecified equity stake in G.M.-Chrysler, according to people briefed on the talks.

The ramifications of the merger would be enormous in the global auto industry. G.M. and Chrysler together would control more than 35 percent of the United States vehicle market, and be by far the dominant producer of pickup trucks, sport utility vehicles and minivans.

It would also marry such iconic American brands as G.M.?s Chevrolet and Cadillac with Chrysler?s Jeep and Dodge divisions.

However, the potential merger carries enormous risks. Both G.M. and Chrysler are struggling mightily in what is the worst market for vehicle sales in the United States in 15 years.

People close to the discussions said that if the prospective deal did not happen, Cerberus would probably look to Nissan and Renault.

But the marriage of G.M. and Chrysler has far more potential than hitching Chrysler to a foreign automaker. While G.M. and Chrysler may be hamstrung by labor contracts from cutting jobs, the two companies could combine dealers, product lines and advanced vehicle technology.

Bill Vlasic reported from Detroit and Andrew Ross Sorkin from New York.

Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler meeting?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 08:54:00 PM
Here's my idea:

-Sell of Viper to Saleen's new company
-keep Dodge as a minivan/truck company
-Get rid of Hummer/Integrate it with Hummer a la Land Rover/Range Rover
-Chrysler to become the fleet division for the whole company
-Bring back AMC
-Kill off...something less profitable.

I dunno, I think it's a bad deal.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler meeting?
Post by: S204STi on October 10, 2008, 08:55:55 PM
I guess I should start training on Chrysler products. :mask:
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler meeting?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 09:04:12 PM
What's wrong with making companies stronger as a single unit rather than making them bigger.  Why is the American mentality always bigger = better?

Saab should be low volume and quirky.
Pontiac should be a sports division right under the Corvette and the Camaro.  Yet, they're killing off the Solstice.
Chevy should be budget-minded with the exception of the Camaro and the Vette.  Yet, they, too, have a $40,000 Lambda.  It's retarded.
Saturn should be economical and Euro-centric.  Yet they, too, have to have the same cars as everyone else.  An Astra VXR here would do wonders for the company.  The Vue is a nice vehicle, too, but it's not worth the mid-20s asking price.  The Aura's back seat is terrible, and they didn't market the cars correctly -- none of them.
Buick -- I like Buick's current direction.  They should be the new Oldsmobile.  I still wish they had a convertible/cruiser like the Solara.
Caddy -- They're kinda cool, too.  Big and brash is the only way they will succeed in this market.  The CTS should be moved to cheaper 5er levels in size and quality, an AWD BLS should come standard here as a 3er fighter, and the STS should be made into a large upper sedan.  The DTS should still be the volume leader but with AWD and a 6-speed auto.

GM doesn't know how to focus the brands.  Maybe they need to hire Ferdinand Piech or Carlos Ghosn.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: TBR on October 10, 2008, 10:22:14 PM
"Pontiac should be a sports division right under the Corvette and the Camaro.  Yet, they're killing off the Solstice."

They have to make money.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 10:47:21 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 10:22:14 PM
"Pontiac should be a sports division right under the Corvette and the Camaro.  Yet, they're killing off the Solstice."

They have to make money.

BMW is a sporty car maker.  Second to Porsche, it makes the most money per car in the entire industry.  If they can't do their mission successfully, kill them off.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Raza on October 10, 2008, 10:48:32 PM
Let them both die.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Soup DeVille on October 10, 2008, 10:49:08 PM
Quote from: R-inge on October 10, 2008, 08:55:55 PM
I guess I should start training on Chrysler products. :mask:

All I know is every body man I've ever met hates them.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:00:16 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 10:47:21 PM
BMW is a sporty car maker.  Second to Porsche, it makes the most money per car in the entire industry.  If they can't do their mission successfully, kill them off.

They can't make money on the Solstice without pricing it in Vette territory. How would that make sense?

Also, BMW and Porsche make so much money more because of their reputation for making certain kinds of cars than because they actually make those kinds of cars.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:03:32 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:00:16 PM
They can't make money on the Solstice without pricing it in Vette territory. How would that make sense?

Also, BMW and Porsche make so much money more because of their reputation for making certain kinds of cars than because they actually make those kinds of cars.

And they can sell a $90k 5er based on a car that starts at $40k.

Economies of scale can be your friend.  Apparently, GM execs never took economics courses in college.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:07:51 PM
How many Kappas do you think they can sell? Hint, not that many.

They would have to make major changes for the Solstice/Sky to be economically viable.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Raza on October 10, 2008, 11:09:05 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:03:32 PM
And they can sell a $90k 5er based on a car that starts at $40k.

Economies of scale can be your friend.  Apparently, GM execs never took economics courses in college.

Do they have a class called "Making Cars That Don't Suck"?
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Raza on October 10, 2008, 11:09:54 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:07:51 PM
How many Kappas do you think they can sell? Hint, not that many.

They would have to make major changes for the Solstice/Sky to be economically viable.

10.  Maybe 12.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:07:51 PM
How many Kappas do you think they can sell? Hint, not that many.

They would have to make major changes for the Solstice/Sky to be economically viable.

Somehow Mazda made it happen.  BMW made it happen to an extent with the Z3, and Toyota still turned a profit on the MR2, I think.

Why not make a larger Kappa for Buick/Cadillac?
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:13:08 PM
Quote from: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:10:09 PM
Somehow Mazda made it happen.  BMW made it happen to an extent with the Z3, and Toyota still turned a profit on the MR2, I think.

Why not make a larger Kappa for Buick/Cadillac?

Read the second line of my post ;)

They could do it, but right now it is far more important that they focus on increasing small and midsize car sales. Once they accomplish that, then maybe they can focus on fun cars.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:13:08 PM
Read the second line of my post ;)

They could do it, but right now it is far more important that they focus on increasing small and midsize car sales. Once they accomplish that, then maybe they can focus on fun cars.

You make too much sense, Mr. Toyoda.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:15:56 PM
It's a business, making money is their number one priority.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:16:44 PM
Quote from: TBR on October 10, 2008, 11:15:56 PM
It's a business, making money is their number one priority.

Thank you, Mr. Toyoda.  Would you like some sake with your meal?
Title: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 05:37:24 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/11/news/companies/bc.apfn.gm.chrysler.merger.ap/index.htm?cnn=yes

DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have held preliminary talks about a merger or an acquisition of Chrysler by GM, according to published reports Saturday.

The Wall Street Journal, citing people it described as familiar with the discussions, said Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity firm that owns 80.1% of Chrysler and 51% of GMAC Financial Services, proposed trading Chrysler's automotive operations to GM. The Journal said Cerberus would receive GM's remaining 49% stake in GMAC.

The New York Times, also citing people familiar with the talks, said the automakers were discussing a merger. The Times did not mention GMAC, a traditional auto lender hit hard by the housing market downturn.

The talks have stalled because of the recent turmoil in the financial markets, according to the Journal. Its sources said negotiations could resume if markets stabilize because both GM and Cerberus want to quickly divest the assets under discussion.

The negotiations between 100-year-old GM and 83-year-old Chrysler began more than a month ago, according to the Times. Its sources said the chances of a merger were "50-50" as of Friday and likely would take weeks to complete.

Both newspapers posted their stories on their Web sites late Friday.

"Without referencing this specific rumor, as we've often said, GM officials routinely discuss issues of mutual interest with other automakers," GM spokesman Tony Cervone said.

"The company is looking at a number of potential global partnerships as it explores growth opportunities around the world," Chrysler spokeswoman Lori McTavish said. "Beyond those partnerships already announced however, Chrysler has not formed any new agreements and has no further announcements to make at this time."

GM (GM, Fortune 500) shares closed Friday at $4.89, up 13 cents, or 2.7%. On Thursday, they closed at $4.76, the lowest level since 1950.

GM said Friday, in response to the stock price, that it is nor considering a bankruptcy filing.

"Clearly we face unprecedented challenges related to uncertainties in the financial markets globally and weakening economic fundamentals in many key markets, but bankruptcy protection is not an option GM is considering," a company statement said.

First Published: October 11, 2008: 6:13 AM ET
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 06:00:40 AM
And Chrysler can offer GM what?

The Wrangler and the Minivans is all I can think of.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 06:10:31 AM
Quote from: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 06:00:40 AM
And Chrysler can offer GM what?

The Wrangler and the Minivans is all I can think of.

If Chrysler's EV concepts it showed recently are any good, that would be a good supplement to the Volt.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 06:27:03 AM
Quote from: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 06:10:31 AM
If Chrysler's EV concepts it showed recently are any good, that would be a good supplement to the Volt.

Two totally different systems with virtually no synergies. 
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 06:49:23 AM
Quote from: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 06:27:03 AM
Two totally different systems with virtually no synergies. 

Why wouldn't it be in GM's interest to have those two different systems?
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: Onslaught on October 11, 2008, 08:07:58 AM
We just bailed GM out. How can they buy anything?
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 08:26:09 AM
Quote from: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 06:49:23 AM
Why wouldn't it be in GM's interest to have those two different systems?

They should at least see that they share components like inverters etc. Designing it for that costs money.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Onslaught on October 11, 2008, 08:07:58 AM
We just bailed GM out. How can they buy anything?

Trading GMAC to Cerberus for Chrysler without money changing hands.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: 2o6 on October 11, 2008, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 06:27:03 AM
Two totally different systems with virtually no synergies. 


Except for the battery technology, the systems are quite similar.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: 2o6 on October 11, 2008, 10:14:15 AM
Quote from: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 10:47:21 PM
BMW is a sporty car maker.  Second to Porsche, it makes the most money per car in the entire industry.  If they can't do their mission successfully, kill them off.


People are buying Pontiacs even with their "Faux-Sporty" image. I've always thought Pontiac to be the furtest distanced from Chevy as far as interior and exterior styling.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: GoCougs on October 11, 2008, 10:41:43 AM
Both are headed for ruin, both have essentially the same product mix, so what's the advantage?

Perhaps getting GM privatized (a la Cerberus) is the goal...
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: Galaxy on October 11, 2008, 11:15:43 AM
Quote from: 2o6 on October 11, 2008, 10:11:23 AM

Except for the battery technology, the systems are quite similar.

The Mercedes E class and the BMW 5er are also quite similar but with zero synergies.


Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: the Teuton on October 11, 2008, 11:43:35 AM
Galaxy's right.  Why did DCX fall apart?  The companies had nothing in common.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Laconian on October 11, 2008, 11:52:14 AM
Quote from: 2o6 on October 11, 2008, 10:14:15 AM

Fleets People are buying Pontiacs even with their "Faux-Sporty" image. I've always thought Pontiac to be the furtest distanced from Chevy as far as interior and exterior styling.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Laconian on October 11, 2008, 11:53:44 AM
Quote from: the Teuton on October 10, 2008, 11:10:09 PM
Somehow Mazda made it happen.
Not only that, but Mazda did it without needing to whore the MX5 platform out to any other model.

Do the Brits say "Mazder" like they say "Javer" instead of "Java"?
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: hotrodalex on October 11, 2008, 12:20:15 PM
The deal makes absolutely no sense. GM is too large as it is, 3 more brands wouldn't help one bit.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Gotta-Qik-C7 on October 11, 2008, 02:31:35 PM
Quote from: hotrodalex on October 11, 2008, 12:20:15 PM
The deal makes absolutely no sense. GM is too large as it is, 3 more brands wouldn't help one bit.
True. GM has enough of its own models competing for market share so why bring on even more?
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: S204STi on October 11, 2008, 03:13:32 PM
Hey Moderator, it appears there's already a thread on the topic.  Would you mind merging them?  :evildude:

http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=16088.0
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 03:38:30 PM
Quote from: R-inge on October 11, 2008, 03:13:32 PM
Hey Moderator, it appears there's already a thread on the topic.  Would you mind merging them?  :evildude:

http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=16088.0

I would mind very, very much.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: AutobahnSHO on October 11, 2008, 06:47:55 PM
Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on October 11, 2008, 02:31:35 PM
True. GM has enough of its own models competing for market share so why bring on even more?

They could Then become so massively in debt and in trouble aGain that the only way to keep going is to then merge/ buy Ford- resulting in massive chaos in the US of A after they finally have to declare total bankruptcy and fire all the union employees and could start selling decent cars for a reasonable price..
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 11, 2008, 06:51:35 PM
Quote from: Laconian on October 11, 2008, 11:53:44 AM
Not only that, but Mazda did it without needing to whore the MX5 platform out to any other model.

Do the Brits say "Mazder" like they say "Javer" instead of "Java"?

Yes.

Anyone hear about GM having talks with Ford now?
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Atomic on October 11, 2008, 07:47:56 PM
chrysler has enough troubles! gm is not strong enough, either. someone with the resources needs to pour money into chrysler. they have some decent cars that sorely need attention - 300/charger/town & country/caravan/grand cherokee/wrangler. the pt-cruiser got off to a great start. chrysler, instead of updating this pretty solid vehicle allowed it to age with little to no improvements. they had the chance to turn it into a 4wd/awd subaru legacy/outback wagon fighter! i wrote many letters to chrysler with very positive replies giving me hope. they dropped the ball. sadly! gm will be in end of chrysler/dodge/dodge trucks/jeep. i would rather see a non-american company take over - honda, toyota, nissan (already rumored), bmw (my dream), etc.

my advice: gm, fix the mess that you already have. fmc would even be better. chrysler could replace mercury and lincoln - if done right! then again - the above mentioned brands would do chrysler wonders.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Secret Chimp on October 11, 2008, 07:56:46 PM
Chrysler just has so few redeeming vehicles, and GM has too many vehicles that are the exact same thing with different sheetmetal. I dunno what the merger would end up with.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: S204STi on October 12, 2008, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: ifcar on October 11, 2008, 03:38:30 PM
I would mind very, very much.

Cool, so moderators can repost but no one else can?

Your doucheness knows no bounds.
Title: Re: GM to buy Chrysler?
Post by: ifcar on October 12, 2008, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: R-inge on October 12, 2008, 09:26:44 AM
Cool, so moderators can repost but no one else can?

Your doucheness knows no bounds.

I was kidding, and then forgot to go back and do it. And people call ME uptight.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: S204STi on October 12, 2008, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: ifcar on October 12, 2008, 09:47:36 AM
I was kidding, and then forgot to go back and do it. And people call ME uptight.

:lol:

My bad then.  I figured you were serious, since you hadn't done it.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: FlatBlackCaddy on October 13, 2008, 10:48:25 AM
I think this is the ticket. Merging these two together will no doubt result in a serious automotive juggernaut that WILL rule the automotive universe.

GM's problems have ALWAYS stemed from their lack of brands in their portfolio. With the introduction of chrysler group they will have a large diverse group of brands with class leading products in every segment. This is so amazing that i can't believe it took this long to see it. GM management has really outdone themselves this time, perfection.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: SVT666 on October 14, 2008, 09:46:24 AM
I just read that Ford turned down a merger proposal from GM a few months ago.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: the Teuton on October 14, 2008, 09:51:40 AM
Quote from: HEMI666 on October 14, 2008, 09:46:24 AM
I just read that Ford turned down a merger proposal from GM a few months ago.

Quote from: the Teuton on October 11, 2008, 06:51:35 PM
Yes.

Anyone hear about GM having talks with Ford now?

GM needs to focus rather than diversify at this point.
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Nethead on October 14, 2008, 11:02:10 AM
As GoCougs pointed out, they have the same product mix so there doesn't seem to be any  intelligent  advantages to either party--therefore, they'll doubtless forge ahead.  After all, a sack of flour makes a big biscuit.  Maybe they can hire Dubya as CEO of the combined organization--he'll be looking for work in a few months. 

The cost of integrating these two exceeds any cost savings from alleged "synergies" that hardly existed back when times were not so dismal and they sure as Hell don't exist now.  Besides, wait several months and Cerberus will have cut their asking price greatly.
 
This is not a time when either should be tying up with another troubled manufacturer--both have enough problems of their own that they can't seem to solve effectively without adding the problems of the other to their plates!  Shit...

 
Title: Re: Possible GM/Chrysler merger?
Post by: Nethead on November 07, 2008, 11:54:46 AM
It appears that sanity has won another round over stupidity, per this brief item from www.motortrend.com:

GM acquisition of Chrysler is off - GM loses $4.2 billion, Ford $2.9 billion
Posted Today 09:42 AM by Todd Lassa

DETROIT - General Motors has ended talks with Cerberus to acquire Chrysler LLC, GM CEO and chairman Rick Wagoner said Friday afternoon, without specifically naming Chrysler. "We're setting aside such an acquisition as a near-term priority," Wagoner said.

GM announced $5 billion in "additional enhancement initiatives," Friday, which means cutting employees and programs and reducing other capital spending. The savings are to be piled onto its $10 billion in savings and cash-raising activities, including selling Hummer, announced last summer. Selling cars and trucks has done nothing for raising cash, though, as GM reported a net loss of $2.5 billion in the third quarter of '08. Ford Motor Company lost $129 million.

Both of these numbers would have been much worse, if not for an accounting adjustment connected to the 2007 United Auto Workers settlement pertaining to retiree health care. If not for that adjustment, GM would have lost $4.2 billion, while Ford would have lost $2.9 billion.