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Here is a simple question:

Does GM build anything you would buy over the competition?

I'd probably buy a Suburban/Yukon XL over an Expedition EL simply because it looks much better (the Expedition is the better vehicle, though not by much).

I would have a tough time deciding between a Cobalt SS Turbocharged, a Mazdaspeed3, and a Civic Si.

A CTS would also likely get my money.

I would buy a Sierra Denali over any other truck.

I would buy a Corvette over most any sports car.

I would buy a Cobalt SS over other sport compacts (maybe not over a Mini Cooper)

I'd probably buy the CTS-v over a 5er, since it's faster and less expensive than an M5. Nicer interior too.

I'd buy a Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger.

Pontiac G8 GT/GXP over a Charger or 300c

The only thing in GM's lineup that I would actually buy over the competition is a Corvette Coupe or Cobalt SS.  Other manufacturers make cars and trucks that I would rather buy then what GM offers.

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 03, 2008, 12:07:45 PM
I would buy a Sierra Denali over any other truck.

I would buy a Corvette over most any sports car.

I would buy a Cobalt SS over other sport compacts (maybe not over a Mini Cooper)

I'd probably buy the CTS-v over a 5er, since it's faster and less expensive than an M5. Nicer interior too.

I'd buy a Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger.

Pontiac G8 GT/GXP over a Charger or 300c

I'm going to have to copy your list and maybe add the LaCrosse, except I still think the Legacy and Accord are better cars for the money.

Edit:  I'd buy a 993 over any modern sports car, so maybe that eliminates the Vette, too.

Not that i can think of.

They have some things i like, but nothing i would buy.

In the past i would have said their trucks, but the new ones are OK and the new ram or ford would get my money.

The corvette is the only thing that had a shot, but if i had the cash and room for another fair weather expensive sports car i would buy a porsche.

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 03, 2008, 12:07:45 PM
I would buy a Sierra Denali over any other truck.

I would buy a Corvette over most any sports car.

I would buy a Cobalt SS over other sport compacts (maybe not over a Mini Cooper)

I'd probably buy the CTS-v over a 5er, since it's faster and less expensive than an M5. Nicer interior too.

I'd buy a Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger.

Pontiac G8 GT/GXP over a Charger or 300c

The stuff i've driven from GM lately has been a let down. I'd agree with the CTS-V as a knee jerk reaction. After initial thought though i'd remember my seat time in a base CTS and then probably go with the tried and true germans.

Camaro SS, but that's debatable since we really haven't seen it tested or compared. However, it's highly unlikely I'd ever buy a pony car.

The vehicles I am likely to buy; small pickups, small/mid-size SUVs, mid-size sedans, or AWD sedan/wagon with sporting intentions, GM (nor Detroit) has anything I would consider.

Nothing except the Corvette, which doesn't have any real competition.

To be honest, I agree with Cougs.  Right now, I need an all-weather utility wagon with good gas mileage.  If I were to buy new today, the Subaru cars, the CR-V, and the SX4 would be at the top of my list.  GM doesn't offer what I need at the moment.

Corvette

If I were in the mood for a boring midsizer, I'd get a 4cyl Malibu.


Sport Compact= Cobalt SS

However, If were to go to GM of europe, I'd gladly consider anything, they make good products over there.

The only thing that comes close is the Z51 Corveezy, but I would rather pay the premium for a 911 C2

I think I'd still pick the Silverado/Sierra over the competition, though I was also impressed with the new Ram.

I'd probably go with a Cobalt SS over other compact sporty 2-doors.

I might get the base Colorado/Canyon if I wanted a small truck.

None of their other current products are coming to mind here.

i would say - corvette, but i think that is because it is an american icon. the quality is not the greatest - in fact, it would be subpar as a german car, imo. i still love it.

OK, everyone else has said the same thing I'm going to.  But I'll say it anyway.

Corvette and Cobalt SS.  I like the G8, but I wouldn't buy one because (a) it lacks a manual, and (b) I'm not sure how smart it would be to buy a V8 family sedan now that we've seen $4/gal gas.  I also like the CTS, but I would have a hard time choosing it over the G37 or a 3-Series.

I'd buy a Z06 over a Carrera and GT-R. I'd buy a GT3 and GT2 over a ZR-1 but those don't really have the same price so it's a moot point.

I'd also probably get the CTS-V over the M5, E63, etc. Over the E90 M3, though, no, so it depends on what you consider to be its competition.

Other than that, no, though the Cobalt SS seems like a nice car. I'd probably take a Civic Si over one though.

Quote from: thecarnut on November 03, 2008, 01:59:52 PM
Other than that, no, though the Cobalt SS seems like a nice car. I'd probably take a Civic Si over one though.

Then you would be a fool. :lol:

On a unrelated note GM is dead in the water.

There are rumors of a "big announcement" on nov 5. Many speculate it's the chysler/gm merger, some think it's a chapter 11 announcement. Also some "inside" sources say it might even be something drastic like an outside purchase of GM by foreign automakers.

Looks like the titanic finally hit the iceberg and she's sinking fast, anyone have a request for the band?

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 03, 2008, 12:07:45 PM
I would buy a Sierra Denali over any other truck.

I would buy a Corvette over most any sports car.

I would buy a Cobalt SS over other sport compacts (maybe not over a Mini Cooper)

I'd probably buy the CTS-v over a 5er, since it's faster and less expensive than an M5. Nicer interior too.

I'd buy a Camaro over the Mustang or Challenger.

Pontiac G8 GT/GXP over a Charger or 300c

Ditto! And I'll take the Soltice/Sky over the Miata.

Corvette is just about the only one.

I also like their full size truck/SUV offerings.

That's about it.  Their mainstream car offering is abysmal.

Corvette is the only one but I don't know if I'd actually buy one. I think their truck are better than Ford's but these days they are ugly.
I can't think of one domestic car I'd buy right now.

Quote from: Onslaught on November 03, 2008, 04:15:14 PM
Corvette is the only one but I don't know if I'd actually buy one. I think their truck are better than Ford's but these days they are ugly.
I can't think of one domestic car I'd buy right now.

I agree.  All domestic cars are garbage.

(http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/saleen-s7-twin-turbo.jpg)

I'd buy a Malibu, Aura, maybe an Astra, G8, Corvette, Silverado/Sierra, Colorado/Canyon, Tahoe/Yukon, Suburban/Yukon XL, Acadia/Traverse/Outlook/Enclave, CTS, maybe STS, maybe HHR, and I'd take an Aveo/Wave for a spin if I was looking for a bare-bones econobox.

Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2008, 04:49:34 PM
I agree.  All domestic cars are garbage.

(http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/saleen-s7-twin-turbo.jpg)

Awesome, is that a corvette. They finally went mid engined, now it is a REAL supercar.

I might buy a Z06 'vette sometime, not sure that's really over anything, it's kind of a unique placement/buying decision, at least for me, criteria: "American Icon" I could live with, once I had a lot of other cars first. ;-)

BTW, It saddens me this is true, back in the day ('70s vintage cars) I had many a GM vehicle, Camaro's, Chevelle's, a Monza, a Corvair, a 'vette...they weren't great cars, but they were good cars compared to a lot of what was on the market at the time. The German Euro's were unaffordable for most, the Japanese cars hadn't yet caught hold and I don't think the Koreans even made cars yet.

Times have changed...I think I'd recommend a Hyundai to my mom over a Chevy...

Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2008, 04:49:34 PM
I agree.  All domestic cars are garbage.

Thinking more in the line of the "Big 3" on that one. But I wouldn't buy that car either.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 03, 2008, 02:05:12 PM
Then you would be a fool. :lol:

Honda fanboy to the end. :lol:

That I want:  yes
That I want and can afford:  no

That'll probably change when Camaro finally comes out.  Can't guarantee it would be the car I'd finally settle on, but I could see it being a serious contender.

Vette
Camaro
CTS
G8
Cobalt SS
Arcadia
And anything on the GMT900 platform.

Quote from: afty on November 03, 2008, 01:41:56 PM
OK, everyone else has said the same thing I'm going to.  But I'll say it anyway.

Corvette and Cobalt SS.  I like the G8, but I wouldn't buy one because (a) it lacks a manual, and (b) I'm not sure how smart it would be to buy a V8 family sedan now that we've seen $4/gal gas.  I also like the CTS, but I would have a hard time choosing it over the G37 or a 3-Series.

A G8 GXP comes with a manual.

Quote from: thecarnut on November 03, 2008, 01:59:52 PM
I'd buy a Z06 over a Carrera and GT-R. I'd buy a GT3 and GT2 over a ZR-1 but those don't really have the same price so it's a moot point.

Yeah, I didn't include the upper-level 911's when I said I would buy the Vette over any other sports car. They're a lot more expensive.

Quote from: thecarnut on November 03, 2008, 01:59:52 PM
I'd also probably get the CTS-V over the M5, E63, etc. Over the E90 M3, though, no, so it depends on what you consider to be its competition.

I agree. CTS-V over any sports sedan except an M3, which is only a competitor in price.

Is the G8 GXP even for sale?

Even if it is good luck finding one, you have a better chance of finding a virgin at the bunny ranch.

The problem for me with the CTSV and cadillac performance in general is that it's just too new to me. I'm not talking old boats with big blocks. Cadillacs attempts at modern european performance is a relatively new concept. I just don't see them surpassing the germans at something they have been doing for DECADES. While back to back seat time is unlikely, i'd be shocked if the CTSV would be able to surpass the M5 and M3 in DYNAMIC attributes. I drove a CTS(automatic, which is irrelavent) and it has a hard time matching the last generation 5 series IMO when it comes to chassis composure and driving feel. It always seems they benchmark the previous models, and fall short. I think the CTS is no different. Add to that the fact the CTS has an identity crisis. It wants to play with the 5 series but lacks a V8 and has the interior dimensions of a 3 series with the heft of a 5. It certainly blows the old CTS out of the water, but GM bettering itself isn't much of an accomplishment. It only further enforces the reality that at GM giving it their all is just wasted words since all they seem to do is surpass themselves while still being behind the competition.

Corvette, CTS-V, Sierra 2500 Duramax, Suburban 2500 (They still make that one in 3/4 ton?)

That I would buy over the competition?  Yes.
That I would buy?  No.  At least I can't think of anything.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 03, 2008, 05:54:44 PM
Is the G8 GXP even for sale?

Even if it is good luck finding one, you have a better chance of finding a virgin at the bunny ranch.

Not sure if it's in dealers yet. But if it's not, it will be soon.

I want to have this:

(http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/pictures/1972_Pontiac_Grand_Safari_1.jpg)

My way of telling the treehuggers to go f... themselves.  :thumbsup:

I like the GM cars from the 1970sand 1980s the best from a styling perspective.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on November 04, 2008, 10:02:51 AM
I want to have this:

(http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/pictures/1972_Pontiac_Grand_Safari_1.jpg)

My way of telling the treehuggers to go f... themselves.  :thumbsup:

I like the GM cars from the 1970sand 1980s the best from a styling perspective.

With the exception of early 70's cars, most GM cars looked like ass then...

Yes, I'd buy a Saturn Astra five door.  Volkswagen dropped the ball with the Golf Mk V/Rabbit by only offering the craptacular 2.5 litre five cylinder.  North America will supposedly get a diesel powered version of the Golf Mk VI so, until then, I'd go with the Astra.  Oh, and an Opel grill and badges, too.

Cheers,
Madman of the People

Quote from: Madman on November 04, 2008, 06:19:38 PM
Yes, I'd buy a Saturn Astra five door.  Volkswagen dropped the ball with the Golf Mk V/Rabbit by only offering the craptacular 2.5 litre five cylinder.  North America will supposedly get a diesel powered version of the Golf Mk VI so, until then, I'd go with the Astra.  Oh, and an Opel grill and badges, too.

Cheers,
Madman of the People

Opel? Bah. Vauxhall FTW!  :rockon:

If we were to go to GM of Europe, however, I'd consider a lot.

For instance, this little number.

(http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_433/car_photo_216535_7.jpg)

Quote from: 2o6 on November 04, 2008, 07:57:37 PM
Opel? Bah. Vauxhall FTW!  :rockon:

If we were to go to GM of Europe, however, I'd consider a lot.

For instance, this little number.

(http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_433/car_photo_216535_7.jpg)

Outside of a BTCC race circuit, a Vauxhall badge looks a bit out of place on a left hand drive Astra.

That Corsa VXR you posted is HOT!  Compare this to the shitbox Chevy Aveo which GM thinks is good enough for America and you begin to understand why GM is on the brink of insolvency.

Cheers,
Madman of the People

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 04, 2008, 10:39:34 AM
With the exception of early 70's cars, most GM cars looked like ass then...

I dunno. I like some of those designs, especially the big to midsize landyacht sedans.  :praise:

The question for me would be, do imports build anything I would want? Other than a Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus or BMW, nope). I would still take a ZR1 over most of the Porsche/Ferrari/Lotus models (though I am partial to the old 80's Lotus Espirit Turbo.

Malibu > Accord, Camry, Mazda 6
Cobalt > Civic, Corolla, Mazda 3
SRX & Enclave > Acura MDX, Lexus
Suburban > Toyota Sequoia, Nissan Armada II, Expedition
Tahoe/Yukon > Toyota 4 Runner, Explorer
Solstice/Sky > Mazda Miata
G8 > Charger
Silverado/GMC > Ram, F150, Titan, Tundra
CTS > BMW 3/5 Series
Cadillac V Series > BMW M Series

Saturn < Useless

Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2008, 04:49:34 PM
I agree.  All domestic cars are garbage.

(http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/saleen-s7-twin-turbo.jpg)

:huh:

I wouldn't buy that.

Quote from: the Teuton on November 03, 2008, 04:49:34 PM
I agree.  All domestic cars are garbage.

And just because I can't think of a Domestic car I'd buy doesn't mean I'm saying they are all junk. I can only think of about 4-5 cars I'd buy right now. They just aren't made here.

I agree Onslaught.  Domestic cars aren't junk, there are just more appealing cars from other manufacturers.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 05, 2008, 07:06:12 AM
The question for me would be, do imports build anything I would want? Other than a Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus or BMW, nope). I would still take a ZR1 over most of the Porsche/Ferrari/Lotus models (though I am partial to the old 80's Lotus Espirit Turbo.

Malibu > Accord, Camry, Mazda 6
Cobalt > Civic, Corolla, Mazda 3
SRX & Enclave > Acura MDX, Lexus
Suburban > Toyota Sequoia, Nissan Armada II, Expedition
Tahoe/Yukon > Toyota 4 Runner, Explorer
Solstice/Sky > Mazda Miata
G8 > Charger
Silverado/GMC > Ram, F150, Titan, Tundra
CTS > BMW 3/5 Series
Cadillac V Series > BMW M Series

Saturn < Useless

Sadly, your the minority.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 05, 2008, 07:06:12 AM
Malibu > Accord, Camry, Mazda 6
Cobalt > Civic, Corolla, Mazda 3
SRX & Enclave > Acura MDX, Lexus
Suburban > Toyota Sequoia, Nissan Armada II, Expedition
Tahoe/Yukon > Toyota 4 Runner, Explorer
Solstice/Sky > Mazda Miata
G8 > Charger
Silverado/GMC > Ram, F150, Titan, Tundra
CTS > BMW 3/5 Series
Cadillac V Series > BMW M Series

Saturn < Useless

In your categories I would pick in order:
Mazda 6
Mazda 3 (unless it's the Cobalt SS Turbo)
Acura MDX or Enclave
Expedition
Sky
G8, though I would rather buy a car from a different class since the G8 doesn't offer the fuel economy that I could get elsewhere.
Ram
BMW 330i
BMW M Series

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 05, 2008, 07:06:12 AM
The question for me would be, do imports build anything I would want? Other than a Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus or BMW, nope). I would still take a ZR1 over most of the Porsche/Ferrari/Lotus models (though I am partial to the old 80's Lotus Espirit Turbo.

Malibu > Accord, Camry, Mazda 6
Cobalt > Civic, Corolla, Mazda 3
SRX & Enclave > Acura MDX, Lexus
Suburban > Toyota Sequoia, Nissan Armada II, Expedition
Tahoe/Yukon > Toyota 4 Runner, Explorer
Solstice/Sky > Mazda Miata
G8 > Charger
Silverado/GMC > Ram, F150, Titan, Tundra
CTS > BMW 3/5 Series
Cadillac V Series > BMW M Series

Saturn < Useless

You do know that the G8 is an import, right?

Quote from: MX793 on November 05, 2008, 07:49:05 PM
You do know that the G8 is an import, right?

Do I know that the G8 is imported from Holden in Australia, a General Motors company? No...do tell  :banghead:

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 05, 2008, 04:33:26 PM
Sadly, your the minority.

Why is it sad that I am in the minority in this thread?  :confused:

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 05:20:02 AM
Why is it sad that I am in the minority in this thread?  :confused:

Not in this thread specifically. You are the minority in the sense that you see the domestics(in your case GM) as offering a overall superior lineup than any other company or model from a non domestic(GM) automaker. The sad part meant that for GM(and F,CH) you are the minority. Overall the vast majority of the car buying public passes on the sub standard domestic models and looks to the competition.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 06, 2008, 08:16:52 AM
Not in this thread specifically. You are the minority in the sense that you see the domestics(in your case GM) as offering a overall superior lineup than any other company or model from a non domestic(GM) automaker. The sad part meant that for GM(and F,CH) you are the minority. Overall the vast majority of the car buying public passes on the sub standard domestic models and looks to the competition.

Well, your opinion is noted kind sir.  :ohyeah:

BTW, the majority of public actually buys more domestics than imports

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 09:53:37 AM
Well, your opinion is noted kind sir.  :ohyeah:

BTW, the majority of public actually buys more domestics than imports

No they don't.  The domestics make up less then 50% of the car sales in the US.  Last I saw it was around 44% I believe.

Also, a lot of that "public" is fleets.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 06, 2008, 09:56:15 AM
No they don't. 

They do, unless you are using a blanket statement of all combined manufacturers in the U.S. As in Hyundai+Toyota+Nissan+Honda+Ferrari+Porsche+Kia+etc.

BTW ifcar, GM has been pulling out of the fleet market slowly.

Which is an absolutely retarded, GM needs all the volume they can get right now.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 10:49:57 AM
They do, unless you are using a blanket statement of all combined manufacturers in the U.S. As in Hyundai+Toyota+Nissan+Honda+Ferrari+Porsche+Kia+etc.

BTW ifcar, GM has been pulling out of the fleet market slowly.

huh

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 10:49:57 AM
They do, unless you are using a blanket statement of all combined manufacturers in the U.S. As in Hyundai+Toyota+Nissan+Honda+Ferrari+Porsche+Kia+etc.

BTW ifcar, GM has been pulling out of the fleet market slowly.

What other statement would he make?  Of course he includes every import company....

So no, they don't.

Sigh. I guess if you want to play those games.

Sorry, but domestic cars are not substandard or inferior to imports. They were up until a few years ago. Believe me, I know. We traded in our 2003 Grand Prix (end of the lease) for a 2007 Toyota Camry LE. MISTAKE. The Camry has been inferior to our Grand Prix. Cornering and handling are worse on they Toyota Camry. The steering is loose, the dash creaks in the winter AND summer. No traction control and similar gas mileage for an engine with 2 less cylinders. All for a price that is more than our Grand Prix was. We got much less for our money.

We went out and test drove a equally equipped 2008 Malibu last month, and it was better than our Camry in every department.  :huh:

Taking this conversation any furthur would be a waste of time with such a die hard blind to reality fan like yourself.

You want to change the parameters to fit your outcome, that sadly doesn't work in the real world(this isn't GM fantasy land).

From the WSJ, here's the link, click on the "Sales and share of total market by manufactuer" link and look at the chart. There you will find all the numbers.

All are 0ctober 08 numbers
GM 19.9
Ford 15.3
chyrsler 11.3

Add those up and you get 46.5, which is less than 50. Which makes the statement that the domestics sell LESS vehicles than imports in the US accurate.

Here is the facts, you're an idiot, don't bother responding.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 05:19:31 AM
Do I know that the G8 is imported from Holden in Australia, a General Motors company? No...do tell  :banghead:

Because you chose the G8 (a car engineered, designed and built in Australia) over the Charger (a car engineered, designed and built in North America) whilst commenting how you would choose a domestic vehicle over its imported competition.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 06, 2008, 04:47:05 PM
Taking this conversation any furthur would be a waste of time with such a die hard blind to reality fan like yourself. Here is the facts, you're an idiot, don't bother responding.

Only a troll, such as yourself would resort to name calling and pass the same post above showing I bought a new 2007 Camry. Facts are, you have no reading comprehension skills. Don't bother typing until you read previous posts. I was speaking of the top 3 imports (Nissan, Toyota, Honda) vs. Ford, GM and Chrysler (the ones that compete against each other).

Work on your grammar and spelling as well. It's horrid.  :hammerhead:

October 2008

GM: 168,719
Ford: 132,278
Chrysler: 94530
Total: 395,527

Toyota: 152,101
Honda: 85,864
Nissan: 56,945
Total: 294,910


Like most normal people and places, these are the brands that are compared. Oh, and yes, GM is still the number one selling brand in America. Not a single car manufacturer sold more cars than General Motors in October.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27516318/

That said, with your childish reply, you have lost credibility.

QuoteBecause you chose the G8 (a car engineered, designed and built in Australia) over the Charger (a car engineered, designed and built in North America) whilst commenting how you would choose a domestic vehicle over its imported competition.

Who owns Holden? What is the subject line of this thread? Hint (Does GM build anything you want?).

This might help you polish up on Holden:

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/corporateinfo/companyprofile/companyprofile.jsp

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/corporateinfo/enquiries/enquiries.jsp

http://www.holdencampaign.com.au/holdenhistory/

Beau Tie has a point.......you never said GM of america products.


That being said:

(http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/oct2008/4/9/E668FEF2-BF1C-6524-9849E75401B736A2.jpg)

(http://www.carpark.ru/common/img/uploaded/news/new_opel_corsa_3.jpg)

(http://image.motortrend.com/f/9363423/112_0611_power23z+OPEL_Zafira_OPC+side_view.jpg)

Quote from: 2o6 on November 07, 2008, 06:31:12 AM
Beau Tie has a point.......you never said GM of america products.


That being said:

Yup..love those cars too. I wouldn't mind getting this Park Ave:

(http://www.carbuyersnotebook.com/archives/BParkAve001003.jpg)

Or this Caprice:

(http://www.nextcar.com.au/i.holden.WM.caprice.gold.s.06sep.jpg)

Quote from: 2o6 on November 07, 2008, 06:31:12 AM
Beau Tie has a point.......you never said GM of america products.

I think it goes without saying that I meant the North American market.  This is where we live after all.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 10:49:57 AM
They do, unless you are using a blanket statement of all combined manufacturers in the U.S. As in Hyundai+Toyota+Nissan+Honda+Ferrari+Porsche+Kia+etc.

What else would I use?  Nowhere did you state you were talking about the top 3 imports until after we proved you wrong.  There is no way you can dismiss imports like Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW, etc. since they all sell a significant amount of cars.  You said the majority of the buying public buys more domestics then they do imports.  That statement is totally and completely false.

And don't even try to call me a troll.  I am a big fan of a lot of GM's cars like the Malibu, G8, Cobalt SS, Corvette, CTS, Saab 9-3, Solstice, Sky, Astra, Yukon, Enclave, etc, but the problem is that in almost every case (not all), there is a more desirable product available from a different manufacturer.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:04:45 AM
I think it goes without saying that I meant the North American market.  This is where we live after all.

It doesn't go without saying. And not everyone on this forum lives in NA. I provided GM cars (as requested in the thread title).

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 06, 2008, 04:22:56 PM
Sorry, but domestic cars are not substandard or inferior to imports. They were up until a few years ago. Believe me, I know. We traded in our 2003 Grand Prix (end of the lease) for a 2007 Toyota Camry LE. MISTAKE. The Camry has been inferior to our Grand Prix. Cornering and handling are worse on they Toyota Camry. The steering is loose, the dash creaks in the winter AND summer. No traction control and similar gas mileage for an engine with 2 less cylinders. All for a price that is more than our Grand Prix was. We got much less for our money.

Sounds like you weren't very smart in your car buying.  If I test drove a vehicle and found all the problems you noted, I wouldn't have bought it.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 07, 2008, 08:21:37 AM
It doesn't go without saying. And not everyone on this forum lives in NA. I provided GM cars (as requested in the thread title).

For someone who just showed up on this board you are awfully argumentative.  It seems that the only two people on this board who didn't understand what I meant were you and 2o6.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:13:41 AM
What else would I use?  Nowhere did you state you were talking about the top 3 imports until after we proved you wrong.

Well, we use Nissan, Honda and Toyota as the comparison of competition vs. the domestic cars in the U.S. overall. What else would I use to compare stats against? Even the article I posted only mention those 6 auto manufacturers.

QuoteThere is no way you can dismiss imports like Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW, etc. since they all sell a significant amount of cars. 

Significant?

838,156 cars were sold in the U.S. last month. 700,000 of those were Nissans, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Ford and Honda. 138,000 were Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW, Jag, Mercedes, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche and others.

Just because you elect to disregard my figures in regards to the normal competition (where domestics are outselling their competition) isn't my problem.

QuoteAnd don't even try to call me a troll. 

I wouldn't care if you owned 5 billion domestic vehicles or liked them all. Anyone who resorts to name calling is a troll, and can't offer a mature debate. That means you have less credibility.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:28:17 AM
For someone who just showed up on this board you are awfully argumentative.  It seems that the only two people on this board who didn't understand what I meant were you and 2o6.

I have been here since March. How did I "just show up"?

The only two? There are only 2 people disagreeing with me. Please, you are just trying to flamebait and troll for no apparent reason, other than to feel better about yourself. Let's have a mature debate.

Even if you were to use just the top 3 imports to show domestic superiority I wouldn't get to excited about the results. At the current rate things are going it's only a matter of months before even that cooked statistic will favor the imports.

As i type this GM is realeasing profit reports for the 3rd quarter, another statistic that no doubt contains a negetive symbol and the word Billion.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:27:08 AM
Sounds like you weren't very smart in your car buying.  If I test drove a vehicle and found all the problems you noted, I wouldn't have bought it.

The problems were not as apparent when we first bought it. It wasn't snowing when we bought it, so we had no idea it was going to drive horrible in the winter. When we bought it, the dash didn't have any creaks in it. When we bought it, the steering was much tighter, as was the suspension. Over the past year and a half, those loosened up to the point of being about as agile as a Mercury Grand Marquis.

Tell me how we are supposed to know that stuff in advance. We can't, but you just elected to throw more flamebait out there.  :confused:

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 07, 2008, 08:32:30 AM
Even if you were to use just the top 3 imports to show domestic superiority I wouldn't get to excited about the results. At the current rate things are going it's only a matter of months before even that cooked statistic will favor the imports.

As i type this GM is realeasing profit reports for the 3rd quarter, another statistic that no doubt contains a negetive symbol and the word Billion.

How could we be excited about them losing marketshare or those results? Unless of course you are encouraging domestic car makers to go out of business. I thought the debate here as that imports are more reliable and desirable than domestic cars?

Maybe it's just me, but Toyota was down 25% last month as well, and Honda over 30%. And Honda is also talking about looking at getting a loan to help bail them out of this crisis.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/eyeonasia/archives/2008/11/will_japans_car.html

QuoteEye on Asia
Will Japan's carmakers catch bailout fever?
Posted by: Ian Rowley on November 06

Yet more grim earnings news in Japan today. Toyota, the last of Japan?s automakers to post its half-year results, has slashed its operating profit outlook by over 70% to $6.1 billion for its fiscal year which ends in March. Given it made $5.9 billion in the six months through Sept. 30, that means it will likely make only around $200 million in the second half of the year. Toyota exec Mitsuo Kinoshita said things were so bad that Toyota has formed an ?Emergency Profit Improvement Committee,? headed by CEO Katsuaki Watanabe.

Honda, Nissan and others have already slashed forecasts, albeit by smaller margins, but citing similar problems. Among them: the U.S sales slump, high raw materials costs and, for the Japanese makers, the soaring yen.

Of course, with no one yet projecting losses, the problems aren?t in the U.S. Big Three?s league, as Ford and GM?s results on Nov. 7 will no doubt highlight. Still, that didn?t stop Honda chief Takeo Fukui calling for the Japanese authorities to intervene to weaken the yen earlier today. Speaking at a the launch of the Honda Life, a minicar for the Japanese market, Fukui told reporters the government should step in after the yen?s recent surge against the dollar and other currencies. ?Of course (the government) should intervene,? Reuters reported Fukui as saying. Fukui?s comments were before Toyota?s weak forecasts.

To some extent, Fukui, who isn?t against the U.S. government aiding U.S. automakers, has a point. On Oct. 27, the yen surged to 90 to the dollar and is currently at 98. Back in 2003, when it was at a relatively weak 103, Japan stepped in to ease the pain. Against the euro and other currencies the rise has been even more pronounced. And there is little doubt the speed of the current surge is painful. In Toyota?s case, analysts say a one-yen appreciation of the Japanese currency against the dollar reduces earnings by around $450 million; a one yen appreciation against the euro costs $80 million. The numbers aren?t as brutal at smaller Honda but they still have a big impact.

Whether Fukui?s comments were well timed is another matter. As grim as things are getting for Japan?s car makers?not to mention Japan?s economy which will likely experience a recession?most analysts point out that with plenty of cash, ample fuel sippers and profits they?re in a strong position to capitalize from rivals? woes. And at a time when GM, Ford and Chrysler are all in serious trouble, asking for help in the currency markets is unlikely to go down with customers in the U.S., Honda?s most profitable market.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 07, 2008, 08:29:15 AM
Well, we use Nissan, Honda and Toyota as the comparison of competition vs. the domestic cars in the U.S. overall. What else would I use to compare stats against? Even the article I posted only mention those 6 auto manufacturers.

Significant?

838,156 cars were sold in the U.S. last month. 700,000 of those were Nissans, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Ford and Honda. 138,000 were Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW, Jag, Mercedes, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche and others.

That is hardly an insignificant number of cars.  That's 16.5% of the total car sales.  How can you possibly ignore that?

QuoteJust because you elect to disregard my figures in regards to the normal competition (where domestics are outselling their competition) isn't my problem.

Your figures are skewed.  They only take into account enough of the imports to prove something that isn't true.  Nobody here wants the domestics to fail, but what we don't want is for misinformation to be used as fact in a discussion.

QuoteI wouldn't care if you owned 5 billion domestic vehicles or liked them all. Anyone who resorts to name calling is a troll, and can't offer a mature debate. That means you have less credibility.

I never called you names, and I'm not the one who is trolling here.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:54:19 AM
I never called you names, and I'm not the one who is trolling here.

You are correct. It was not you. My bad, I apologize. I got my quotes messed up. It was FlatBlackCaddy that was trolling.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 07, 2008, 08:56:54 AM
You are correct. It was not you. My bad, I apologize. I got my quotes messed up. It was FlatBlackCaddy that was trolling.

Last I checked, calling someone names isn't trolling.  Anyone who expresses his BLIND love for a specific car company or model all the damn time is a troll...like Teuton with Subarus, me with Mustangs, Raza with Porsches, Beau Tie with Chevy.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:59:18 AM
Last I checked, calling someone names isn't trolling.  Anyone who expresses his BLIND love for a specific car company or model all the damn time is a troll...like Teuton with Subarus, me with Mustangs, Raza with Porsches, Beau Tie with Chevy.

And not every troll is bad, the ones that are completely blind and manipulate data to fuel their own fantasy are the ones that are worthless. Only one on the above list fits that description.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 07, 2008, 09:01:31 AM
And not every troll is bad, the ones that are completely blind and manipulate data to fuel their own fantasy are the ones that are worthless. Only one on the above list fits that description.

Don't be so hard on yourself  :zzz:

Good thing I don't have blind love or faith for GM. Beau Tie is for my love of the Corvette. My favorite cars are from BMW, Mercedes, GM (including Opel and Holden), Porsche, Ferrari and Toyota.

I dislike Honda, Ford, Chrysler, Hyundai and Kia.

The only fantasy is the one that Flat just made up.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:59:18 AM
Last I checked, calling someone names isn't trolling.  Anyone who expresses his BLIND love for a specific car company or model all the damn time is a troll...like Teuton with Subarus, me with Mustangs, Raza with Porsches, Beau Tie with Chevy.

Oh no.......am I a troll?

Quote from: 2o6 on November 07, 2008, 09:09:04 AM
Oh no.......am I a troll?

Of course not. You have 4884 posts!

Quote from: 2o6 on November 07, 2008, 09:09:04 AM
Oh no.......am I a troll?

Yes.  Sorry for leaving you off the list 2o6.  You are a troll for anything Chinese and ugly.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 07, 2008, 09:10:00 AM
Of course not. You have 4884 posts!

What does post count have to do with it?  Raza has 3 million posts and he's a Porsche troll.  You have 3 posts and you are a troll.

Quote from: Beau Tie on November 07, 2008, 09:08:22 AM
Good thing I don't have blind love or faith for GM.

You could've fooled me.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 09:11:16 AM
Yes.  Sorry for leaving you off the list 2o6.  You are a troll for anything Chinese and ugly.

NOoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!  :cry:

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 08:59:18 AM
Last I checked, calling someone names isn't trolling. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiting_(trolling)

QuoteBaiting is similar to trolling, baiters try to elicit a response from other users. The response is supposed to be embarrassing to the user in question, and humorous to others. Baiters frequently concentrate on unpopular groups (in that forum), such as pedophiles, fraudsters (often 419 fraudsters), religious fundamentalists and racists. Baiters do not need to make sense, and is often simply written to baffle the baitee, and to produce an interesting result. Baiting is similar to telephone prank calls, but often much more elaborate.

On Internet forums, baiting is sometimes used in attempts to empty forums or reduce a forum's usage. This type of baiting is usually done to make the atmosphere of a forum appear unpleasant or to make forum owners, moderators and long-time users look foolish. A person using this kind of baiting may post comments to elicit rude responses from prominent members of a forum, thus making the responding member or members appear as trolls or flamers to bystanders. As a result, forum users in general may become disgusted and leave the forum.

Yup, Flat falls into that.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 09:12:18 AM
What does post count have to do with it?  Raza has 3 million posts and he's a Porsche troll.  You have 3 posts and you are a troll.

And you have 12,000 troll posts? At least your honest.  :clap:

Could have fooled you, but I didn't...cuz I set the record straight (which is important).

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 07, 2008, 09:12:18 AM
What does post count have to do with it?

Exactly, which is why you assumed I was new here..because of my post count, though that has nothing to do with it. I am not new here.

Getting back on topic,

Astra, G8, any of the lambdas, GMT900's, maybe the malibu 4cyl 6speed, but probably a mazda 6 or accord.

Everybody is saying corvette but I would probably take a GT-R over that.

And another thing, Domestic cars are not junk and are very competitive - all this talk makes me think that some people are still living in the 90's.  If a domestic is just as good as an import, I would take the domestic.  The amount of people who buy camrys obvioulsy prove that people are willing to buy an inferior import over a competent domestic.

Getting back on topic indeed.

GM is collapsing at this moment.

I'm no so sure what's going on - foreign automakers have in total majority market share in the US. Detroit lost that a few years ago, and its market share will only continue to decline.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 07, 2008, 09:34:05 AM
Getting back on topic indeed.

GM is collapsing at this moment.

I agree with that. I suspect that they will go bankrupt in the next 100 days if they don't get a bail out. They wouldn't be in this position if they didn't mismanage their business over the past 10-20 years.

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 07, 2008, 09:34:05 AM
Getting back on topic indeed.

GM is collapsing at this moment.

What is principally bad is that it burned through a sizable portion of its on-hand cash ($7B). If the bailout does come within the next quarter, GM is done.

Quote from: GoCougs on November 07, 2008, 09:38:17 AM
What is principally bad is that it burned through a sizable portion of its on-hand cash ($7B). If the bailout does come within the next quarter, GM is done.

Ford is in the same position.  They burned through 25% of their cash on hand in a single quarter as well.

Quote from: SagRacer on November 07, 2008, 09:24:56 AM
Getting back on topic,

Astra, G8, any of the lambdas, GMT900's, maybe the malibu 4cyl 6speed, but probably a mazda 6 or accord.

Everybody is saying corvette but I would probably take a GT-R over that.

And another thing, Domestic cars are not junk and are very competitive - all this talk makes me think that some people are still living in the 90's.  If a domestic is just as good as an import, I would take the domestic.  The amount of people who buy camrys obvioulsy prove that people are willing to buy an inferior import over a competent domestic.

I really disagree with the GT-R comment. The 'Vette may be slower but I believe it's more fun on public streets. If I was just getting a track toy, I would be more open to getting a GT-R.

Quote from: hotrodalex on November 07, 2008, 08:46:48 PM
I really disagree with the GT-R comment. The 'Vette may be slower but I believe it's more fun on public streets. If I was just getting a track toy, I would be more open to getting a GT-R.

Also keep in mind that the GT-R is about $25k more than a Vette.

No, if you're talkin' strictly new vehicles--which I assume to be the case. 

Open the question up to include used cars and that's a different story--I'd take a fuel-injected 327 4-speed '63 Stingray coupe over any Corvette built before or since, for instance.  I'd pay extra for the gold paintjob available that year, but not a great deal extra.  No convertibles. 

A '63 Riviera coupe?  Hell, yes!   And in any color!

A '64, '66, or '68 GTO?  Hell yes again!

A '71 Firebird Trans-Am, white with the blue stripe?  Oh Hell YESSSSS!

A '66 Chevelle SS-396?  YESSSSS!

Assuming all are in exceptionally good condition, of course.  I neither need nor want another project vehicle.

Is Saab included?  I'd be pretty inclined to get the new 9-3 turboX over a A4 or 330, especially in wagon trim.

Quote from: Nethead on November 13, 2008, 01:33:18 PM
No, if you're talkin' strictly new vehicles--which I assume to be the case. 

Open the question up to include used cars and that's a different story--I'd take a fuel-injected 327 4-speed '63 Stingray coupe over any Corvette built before or since, for instance.  I'd pay extra for the gold paintjob available that year, but not a great deal extra.  No convertibles. 

A '63 Riviera coupe?  Hell, yes!   And in any color!

A '64, '66, or '68 GTO?  Hell yes again!

A '71 Firebird Trans-Am, white with the blue stripe?  Oh Hell YESSSSS!

A '66 Chevelle SS-396?  YESSSSS!

Assuming all are in exceptionally good condition, of course.  I neither need nor want another project vehicle.

New cars only considering those are the only ones that matter to keep the company alive.

I wouldn't mind an STS as a highway cruiser, but I'd probably take a used BMW or Merc for the same money.

Wait wait wait, what am I saying. 6.0L GTO. Oh wait, they don't make that any more. Durf.

Crazy times. I was just thinking how depressing it would be to live in a time where Corvettes are no longer in production. Jesus Christ man

Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 13, 2008, 03:37:53 PM
Crazy times. I was just thinking how depressing it would be to live in a time where Corvettes are no longer in production. Jesus Christ man

GM is not going out of business.  It would be Chapter 11, not Chapter 7.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 13, 2008, 03:38:33 PM
GM is not going out of business.  It would be Chapter 11, not Chapter 7.

Even if they were to sell the same number of cars as Honda/Toyota/whoever, their revenue next year is gonna be slashed tremendously. They have a bad business model that lost the facade of easy credit and cheap gas. Again, nobody is selling cars right now.

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 13, 2008, 03:00:07 PM
New cars only considering those are the only ones that matter to keep the company alive.

HEMI666:  And to that literal reading of the question, I said "No."  But there was a time when GM built desirable cars, even if the quality was a little suspect--well, OK, the quality was not suspect:  it was guilty as charged.  I know, 'cuz I hadta help with the final assembly at the dealership that shoulda been done at the factory, but too often wasn't...

But I digress...the cars I listed show that GM once could build desirable cars, and there were others--a '65 Impala Super Sport sports coupe, a '66 Nova 327 sports coupe, or a '63 Tempest LeMans 326  coupe come to mind--but these cars are not on the "A" list I quoted upstream in this thread. 

Today, the competition is much more lean and mean, leading GM in reliability, practicality, economy, engineering, styling, resale value, yada yada yada...I think GM has the class leaders in only two restrictively defined markets:
  Leaf-Springed, Front-Engined, RWD Sportscars, and
  Huge, Ugly, Makebelieve Military Vehicles (HUMMVees)

Times have changed.  The public is vastly more automobile savvy than they were when GM had 52 percent of the North American marketplace forty-odd years ago.  And they're a helluva lot more politically savvy, too--as John McCain found out just last week.  Being yesterday's hero--corporate or individual--ain't enough in the twenty-first century.  Times are too tough, and the competition too capable.
Deal with it or die with it...

Class, that concludes the Contemporary North America 101 lecture for today.  Over the week-end, review chapters eight through twenty-four for next Tuesday's midterm.  See ya next week, and have your term papers in by 4:30 this afternoon. 

A listing of cars I'd consider relative to the competition from GM. About half of these are something I'd usually never consider to due price/lack of practicality, but we're speaking theoretically here:

Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbocharged
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Colorado

Pontiac G8
Pontiac Solstice

Cadillac CTS-V
Cadillac STS

Saturn Astra
Saturn Aura

Saab 9-5

Watch how less inclined I am to buy GM/Detroit should they get a government bailout...

(I still think the Camaro will be GM's best car in decades, if not ever.)

Quote from: HEMI666 on November 13, 2008, 03:38:33 PM
GM is not going out of business.  It would be Chapter 11, not Chapter 7.

I know we've probably beat this idea to death, but I'm starting to more strongly believe that Chapter 11 is the best solution for GM and eventually the others, unless of course there's a better way to dump the UAW while continuing their business operations.