J86 made a great point in a recent post, that Audi puts out some of the few new cars he actually lusts for. I have started feeling exactly the same way. While the number of new cars has gone drastically up, want fewer and fewer of those new cars. For example, my favorite car a few years back was the 996 Turbo--it had incredible speed, AWD for snow and that sort, great style, great handling, but it had a fare share of flaws; it was prone to understeer, the interior was pretty low-quality, and there might have been a few more things wrong. However, the new 997 Turbo just does not do it for me. It seems too perfect (maybe not next to a GTR, but you get the picture). Cars these days are entirely too perfect and they're becoming less challenging and therefore less exciting. Describing the 996 GT3, R&T or C&D said, "A person with ADD would not be able to drive this car" or something along those lines, and I just don't see that anymore. The E46 M3 did not have 40 different suspension/engine/transmission settings, you just got in the car and drove it fast. The E90/2 M3 has a ridiculous amount of technology to make the car work perfectly around the track provided you are not an idiot. I want the challenge back in driving.
This goes in line also with the fact that cars are too fast these days. Before my sister took the TSX for herself (my dad would "consider" a car for me for christmas, but no longer is that a possibility unless I can somehow get the Allroad), I would be able to drive around and regularly put my foot to the floor on the gas pedal--it's a pretty quick car, but it only has 200HP and something like 165 lb. ft. of torque. This summer, I drove my dad's Infiniti M35x everywhere and that is a very fast car, getting on the highway from a stop sign at the end of an onramp is great fun, trust me. However, around town, redlining or hitting the gas hard causes me to end up driving much too fast. In the TSX, I could drive the car pretty hard and still be driving at reasonable speed. It's more fun to be able to drive a car nearer to its limits, and cars these days have limits so high that it is becoming mundane or boring to drive.
I believe you're going to be in the minority here. If you've ever had a 1984 tank of a Volvo that only had ~120 hp to get it going on its 14" whitewall tires, then complaining about having too much power or grip seems just as silly as complaining about having too much money.
I disagree, Vin.
Drive an E46 M3 back-to-back with an E9x M3. The new one feels like it will rip the old one apart on a straight line, but the old one just "fits." It's like a glove.
That, and the N54's torque makes the new V8 seem really undesirable to me especially considering that it doesn't have much of an exhaust note either when compared to the older M3s.
Quote from: Vinsanity on November 07, 2008, 11:00:10 AM
I believe you're going to be in the minority here. If you've ever had a 1984 tank of a Volvo that only had ~120 hp to get it going on its 14" whitewall tires, then complaining about having too much power or grip seems just as silly as complaining about having too much money.
I suppose I should have specified. Really old cars with really not a lot of power still suck.
Well, I do agree that there comes a point to which more power and sporting ability falls under the rule of diminishing returns, but IMO, sports cars are purpose-built machines designed to extract a maximum amount of performance for a given situation. I know there are cars like the Miata where the focus is more upon driver enjoyment, but you don't stop trying to improve upon your product because the existing standard is "good enough".
I've driven some pretty quick cars (E46 M3, S2000, SRT-4, E60 535i), and I've never thought that they are/were too quick. I think the true problem here is the lack of driver/machine connection.
Yeah, I have to agree with that sentiment. Maybe I'm just becoming an old codger that's scared of change, but cars today seem to pack in so many things that I don't care about or flat out don't want.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 03:35:13 PM
Yeah, I have to agree with that sentiment. Maybe I'm just becoming an old codger that's scared of change, but cars today seem to pack in so many things that I don't care about or flat out don't want.
+1.
Only electronics I'd like in my car is a stereo with a decent sub. I don't care about the rest.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 07, 2008, 05:04:03 PM
+1.
Only electronics I'd like in my car is a stereo with a decent sub. I don't care about the rest.
I don't know, I rather like EFI.
Quote from: TBR on November 07, 2008, 05:11:44 PM
I don't know, I rather like EFI.
You know what I meant. :rage:
I would like to own a car with a carburetter engine though.
Quote from: TBR on November 07, 2008, 05:11:44 PM
I don't know, I rather like EFI.
Oh, definitely, but I was talking more about the "for your convienience" electro-nannies that will fold your mirrors, heat your coffee, cool your ass and call for help for you.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 05:14:15 PM
Oh, definitely, but I was talking more about the "for your convienience" electro-nannies that will fold your mirrors, heat your coffee, cool your ass and call for help for you.
Power mirrors are very convenient for cars shared by multiple drivers. I don't really care for the rest though.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 07, 2008, 05:13:14 PM
I would like to own a car with a carburetter engine though.
Unless it is a fine sports automobile with Webers, no you wouldn't.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 07, 2008, 05:24:06 PM
Unless it is a fine sports automobile with Webers, no you wouldn't.
Webers are pretty, but tempermental. In all honesty, I'd rather have a decent performance Q-jet.
Quote from: TBR on November 07, 2008, 05:23:28 PM
Power mirrors are very convenient for cars shared by multiple drivers. I don't really care for the rest though.
Not power adjustable mirrors, power
folding mirrors.
They're just plain silly.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 05:29:02 PM
Not power adjustable mirrors, power folding mirrors.
They're just plain silly.
Well that's true.
Here's what I'd keep or desire:
-Power windows (though not necessary)
-Power door locks (they're great, especially with full hands)
-Power mirrors (Because parallel parking without them on a curb sucks ass)
-AC (I used to have it and I loved it)
-Defrosters/heater (Duh...)
-Stereo with half-decent speakers and a CD player
-Heated seats would rock, but I don't need one
That being said, a turn of the century car would suit me just fine. A lot of new cars just don't do it for me, either, especially with the high-belt styling.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 05:28:19 PM
Webers are pretty, but tempermental. In all honesty, I'd rather have a decent performance Q-jet.
That's even worse than the Chrysler/Carter Thermoquad.
The Carter AFB is about as good as a total package carb gets IMO.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 07, 2008, 07:07:25 PM
That's even worse than the Chrysler/Carter Thermoquad.
The Carter AFB is about as good as a total package carb gets IMO.
Q-jets have a bad rep because of the way they were setup from the factory. The design is sound.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
Q-jets have a bad rep because of the way they were setup from the factory. The design is sound.
You're better at it than I then - I've owned both Q-Jets and T-bogs, and no one could ever tune them worth a hoot. The AFB swap out was a dream.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 07, 2008, 07:13:58 PM
You're better at it than I then - I've owned both Q-Jets and T-bogs, and no one could ever tune them worth a hoot. The AFB swap out was a dream.
OK, so there is one big problem with the design- the primary throttle shafts leak vacuum. Putting bushings on that made a world of difference.
Quote from: the Teuton on November 07, 2008, 06:06:17 PM
Here's what I'd keep or desire:
-Power windows (though not necessary)
-Power door locks (they're great, especially with full hands)
-Power mirrors (Because parallel parking without them on a curb sucks ass)
-AC (I used to have it and I loved it)
-Defrosters/heater (Duh...)
-Stereo with half-decent speakers and a CD player
-Heated seats would rock, but I don't need one
That being said, a turn of the century car would suit me just fine. A lot of new cars just don't do it for me, either, especially with the high-belt styling.
You're weak, Teuton. Only time I've used power mirrors to parallel park has been while driving a giant crew-cab 2500. ;)
I like a heater/defroster and a stereo. If the car has more than two doors, I like power mirrors, but meh. AC is nice if I've got to make a bunch of trips across the desert in the summer (as recently). Power steering is good for lots of things, bad for others. The hell with airbags and all that safety crap.
Imagine how much better mileage you could get out of a car today if you could really make it lightweight and use a modern economy engine...
I would like to point out that you don't need power mirrors, power windows, or power locks when your passenger side door is accessible just by leaning over :P
I'm fine with go cart-like sophistication, as long as it goes and it goes fast.
Quote from: Secret Chimp on November 07, 2008, 08:33:52 PM
I would like to point out that you don't need power mirrors, power windows, or power locks when your passenger side door is accessible just by leaning over :P
Hardy har har!
The biggest reason I'm such a Mustang whore is that it's still old school. It's not packed with electronic nannies, adjustable suspensions, adjustable differentials, programmable this and that, 14 settings for the transmission, etc, etc. It's got traction control that's 100% defeatable with the push of a button. It's got soul and character that most other cars don't have because they are so sanitized and overly sophisticated.
I can go either way on the topic... I love classic cars, and there are some truly iconic cars that either aren't for sale anymore or their successor wasn't as desireable for some reason. Or their successor was desireable enough to knock the value down to a level I could afford.
There are also occasionally new cars that I like... but in general I am not thrilled with the direction that automakers are taking lately, with every car pushing the boundaries of size in the segment, and interior design and build quality basically on a plateau at this point, etc. Generally the new cars always look uglier, weight more, and are not always better-performing than the previous model.
The only thing new cars have going for them are progressively better crash safety standards and equipment. Take out the electronic nannies please, but leave the airbags and super-strong frames.
I'm having a problem with the design of new cars. I guess companies feel the need to be "different" now and are designing weird cars. They need to learn that simple is the best way. Have one or two elegant/muscular/sporty/whatever design elements and let the rest of the car evolve around that. When you start adding in a ton of styling elements, the car looks too busy or flat out weird. I noticed this on the new Maxima. I just saw one today for the first time and it's horrible. There's too many lines going in every direction. Even with the odd headlights, they could have made it look a lot better had they made it flow better.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 07, 2008, 07:07:25 PM
That's even worse than the Chrysler/Carter Thermoquad.
The Carter AFB is about as good as a total package carb gets IMO.
The Thermoquad was a decent setup....when it worked.
Jesus Christ you guys sure know how to cry.
There are a lot of awesome new cars.
IF you don't like them, buy an old one.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 09, 2008, 05:27:26 PM
Jesus Christ you guys sure know how to cry.
There are a lot of awesome new cars.
IF you don't like them, buy an old one.
Just not a Honda Accord, please.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 09, 2008, 05:27:26 PM
Jesus Christ you guys sure know how to cry.
There are a lot of awesome new cars.
IF you don't like them, buy an old one.
Hey I love new cars, but there's something to be said for simplicity.
Quote from: HEMI666 on November 09, 2008, 05:56:59 PM
Hey I love new cars, but there's something to be said for simplicity.
Maybe you need a Dacia Logan.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 07, 2008, 05:29:02 PM
Not power adjustable mirrors, power folding mirrors.
They're just plain silly.
My friend with a new C300 loves his power folding mirrors :lol:
I don't dig most new cars, and don't see myself buying one for some time.
Although my car is mostly gadget free, there are some things in there that I just don't need. I lived four years in some of the coldest parts of the state without heated seats and did just fine. But having them means that I can extend my windows down temperature well into the 40s, and even into the high 30s if I dress warmly enough.
Power seatback? I don't really need it, nor do I understand why it's there. If my passenger can manually adjust his seatback, why can't I? Yes, it's convenient, but I don't really get it, when everything else on my seat is manual. Other than that, I have a manual transmission, generally manual seats, manual folding windows, and even a handbrake that I have to operate with my hand. Simple cars are still out there, as long as you're not a badge snob.
I don't have rain sensing windshield wipers (although my wipers, when on intermittent, seem to slow down when I stop moving, but that may be an optical illusion), I don't have nav or iDrive or a starter button, or other silly things.
I do miss my Passat's steering, though.
Quote from: M_power on November 09, 2008, 11:41:35 PM
My friend with a new C300 loves his power folding mirrors :lol:
They're useful, but unnecessary. I fold in the mirrors whenever I go through narrow underpasses or over narrow bridges in my mom's S500.
Quote from: Raza on November 10, 2008, 01:00:24 AM
(although my wipers, when on intermittent, seem to slow down when I stop moving, but that may be an optical illusion),
That's nothing fancy, my car does the same thing.
But yeah, my car doesn't have any fancy electronics either. Power windows and power (adjusting, not folding) windows. I have a pretty nice stereo but that was entirely done by me.
I've had ultra-basic cars (vintage Beetles, anyone), and I currently drive a high end luxury car, with a lot of power accessories (though not the power folding mirrors. I could add it as the wiring's there, though).
I like both. And everything inbetween.
I like the heated seats and steering wheel in the cold months. They warm up a tad faster than the heater does, and it simply takes the edge off on the commute. The mirrors that adjust downward automatically when reversing are a nice touch for parallel parking. Power seatbacks? I like the 3 setting memory seats/mirrors/steering wheel, as there are three different size drivers in the family, and simply hitting a memory button to automatically put everything back to fitting you rather than manually trying to find that same position every time is nice. Hell, I kind of wish I had waited a bit and spent extra on a 750iL and got the power, heated rear seats as well.. ;)
I like the speed sensing wipers, and the power rear sunshade, etc.
Do I "need" any of those things? No. Of course not. But now that luxury cars that have those features have gotten dirt cheap on the used market, I see no reason not to indulge a little, since it doesn't cost hardly anything for them...
Quote from: ChrisV on November 10, 2008, 07:30:48 AM
The mirrors that adjust downward automatically when reversing are a nice touch for parallel parking.
I was about to mention those. They're are kinda cool. :lol:
One of my big problems with new cars is that it seems all the manufacturers are holding a competition to "out-ugly" each other. Never have I seem so many ugly designs as I have just in the last few years. New Nissan Maxima, anyone? Don't forget the Acura TL, Ford Focus, Chrysler Sebring, Toyota Matrix, most Bangle-mangled BMWs and every Scion ever made.
Did all the good cars designers suddenly retire or die? :huh:
Cheers,
Madman of the People
Quote from: Madman on November 12, 2008, 08:09:41 AM
One of my big problems with new cars is that it seems all the manufacturers are holding a competition to "out-ugly" each other. Never have I seem so many ugly designs as I have just in the last few years. New Nissan Maxima, anyone? Don't forget the Acura TL, Ford Focus, Chrysler Sebring, Toyota Matrix, most Bangle-mangled BMWs and every Scion ever made.
Did all the good cars designers suddenly retire or die? :huh:
Cheers,
Madman of the People
They're being stifled by safety regulations.
One place I've noticed this is the C-pillar. Back in the days cars had nearly non-existent C-pillars. Now, with all the requirements for chassis rigidity, etc, you can track the growth in thickness of any popular model. One that comes to mind for me is the Accord.
Same goes with beltline height.
In any case, all I need in a car is a stickshift, a sunroof, a body no longer than 190 or so inches, and a sub 16 sec quarter mile. Room for 4, good sound isolation and some brand snobbery would be an added plus.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on November 12, 2008, 09:46:35 AM
Same goes with beltline height.
I hate high beltlines. I'm not a huge fan of driving around a bathtub.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 12, 2008, 11:48:11 AM
I hate high beltlines. I'm not a huge fan of driving around a bathtub.
I love it when I see a white PT Cruiser convertible. Literally looks like a bathtub on wheels from the back.
Love me some bathtubs...
(http://www.mcqueenonline.com/Porsche_Speedster.jpg)
(http://www.interiorsbyshannon.com/large_1950_ford_custom_.jpg)
Quote from: ChrisV on November 10, 2008, 07:30:48 AM
I've had ultra-basic cars (vintage Beetles, anyone), and I currently drive a high end luxury car, with a lot of power accessories (though not the power folding mirrors. I could add it as the wiring's there, though).
Really? I thought it was only standard on late model V12's? I know companies like to pre-wire for the phone, nav, etc...but something not even available? Maybe i'm just totally wrong. :lol:
I like both. And everything inbetween.
I like the heated seats and steering wheel in the cold months. They warm up a tad faster than the heater does, and it simply takes the edge off on the commute. The mirrors that adjust downward automatically when reversing are a nice touch for parallel parking. Power seatbacks? I like the 3 setting memory seats/mirrors/steering wheel, as there are three different size drivers in the family, and simply hitting a memory button to automatically put everything back to fitting you rather than manually trying to find that same position every time is nice. Hell, I kind of wish I had waited a bit and spent extra on a 750iL and got the power, heated rear seats as well.. ;)
I've sat in those seats...the amount of travel is very, very limited. I'm fairly sure the seatback only reclines an inch or two. My dad's S allows for cushion, seatback, and headrest adjustment, but most new LWB Luxury saloons have a setup very similar to what is found in the front seat.
I like the speed sensing wipers, and the power rear sunshade, etc.
Do I "need" any of those things? No. Of course not. But now that luxury cars that have those features have gotten dirt cheap on the used market, I see no reason not to indulge a little, since it doesn't cost hardly anything for them...
Quote from: ChrisV on November 12, 2008, 01:28:21 PM
Love me some bathtubs...
(http://www.mcqueenonline.com/Porsche_Speedster.jpg)
(http://www.interiorsbyshannon.com/large_1950_ford_custom_.jpg)
But those bathtubs are cool...
Even though the article wasn't that well written (like any of his ever have been?) did anyone read Chubba Sear's column about fuel efficiency in this month's Car and Driver? He points out that 300 pounds of weight loss plus taller gearing can make a 268 hp BMW into an extremely economical machine. The technology is all there; we just need to start implementing it.
Fun, luxurious, and economical don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Quote from: M_power on November 09, 2008, 11:41:35 PM
My friend with a new C300 loves his power folding mirrors :lol:
I bet he's mesmerized by their mallard-like flapping.
Quote from: Raza on November 10, 2008, 01:02:16 AM
They're useful, but unnecessary. I fold in the mirrors whenever I go through narrow underpasses or over narrow bridges in my mom's S500.
OK, you've just invalidated any criticism you've ever had over anybody else's driving.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 04:01:06 PM
I bet he's mesmerized by their mallard-like flapping.
I love power folding mirrors and they helped a ton when I had to park cars in the lot at the dealership with 6 inches of space on either side of me. That being said, while I have thought about dropping $200 on JDM power folding Impreza mirrors, I've come to the realization that it's not much harder to do it myself when I have to fold them in (like now). There are so many people with mirrors that have been knocked off on this street because of how narrow it is that I just don't even take the risk. My car's mirrors are like Dumbo ears, and they'd be such an easy target to kill.
Quote from: the Teuton on November 12, 2008, 05:12:23 PM
I love power folding mirrors and they helped a ton when I had to park cars in the lot at the dealership with 6 inches of space on either side of me. That being said, while I have thought about dropping $200 on JDM power folding Impreza mirrors, I've come to the realization that it's not much harder to do it myself when I have to fold them in (like now). There are so many people with mirrors that have been knocked off on this street because of how narrow it is that I just don't even take the risk. My car's mirrors are like Dumbo ears, and they'd be such an easy target to kill.
Bah, nothing that a little glue and/or duct tape won't fix. Yes, my driver side mirror is attached with both of those right now.
Quote from: the Teuton on November 12, 2008, 05:12:23 PM
I love power folding mirrors and they helped a ton when I had to park cars in the lot at the dealership with 6 inches of space on either side of me. That being said, while I have thought about dropping $200 on JDM power folding Impreza mirrors, I've come to the realization that it's not much harder to do it myself when I have to fold them in (like now). There are so many people with mirrors that have been knocked off on this street because of how narrow it is that I just don't even take the risk. My car's mirrors are like Dumbo ears, and they'd be such an easy target to kill.
So, how'd you get out of these cars with 6 inches on either side of you?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 05:29:54 PM
So, how'd you get out of these cars with 6 inches on either side of you?
Opened the door as much as I could and became a contortionist.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v289/23/13/14228342/n14228342_36369279_2491.jpg)
I don't have a better angle, but the wall with the 5s, 6s, and 7s was always the worst, especially the 6s with those huge doors.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v289/23/13/14228342/n14228342_36369278_2237.jpg)
Quote from: the Teuton on November 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PM
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v289/23/13/14228342/n14228342_36369278_2237.jpg)
I want that car on the end. Oooo sexy. :wub:
Quote from: the Teuton on November 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PM
Opened the door as much as I could and became a contortionist.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v289/23/13/14228342/n14228342_36369279_2491.jpg)
I don't have a better angle, but the wall with the 5s, 6s, and 7s was always the worst, especially the 6s with those huge doors.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v289/23/13/14228342/n14228342_36369278_2237.jpg)
That aint six inches, and if you were honestly worried about hitting the mirrors on any of them...
Well, I'll stop there.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 05:36:06 PM
That aint six inches, and if you were honestly worried about hitting the mirrors on any of them...
Well, I'll stop there.
Would "less than a foot" make you happier?
Quote from: the Teuton on November 12, 2008, 05:49:53 PM
Would "less than a foot" make you happier?
A foot to 18 inches would make me happy.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 05:50:27 PM
A foot to 18 inches would make me happy.
Picky, picky, picky...
I'll give you a foot. There were some tight spots with the 3ers and the used cars in back.
MINIs were a fair amount easier to park, though, because, well, they're mini.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 05:50:27 PM
A foot to 18 inches would make me happy.
...that's what she said.
Quote from: MrH on November 12, 2008, 06:57:09 PM
...that's what she said.
Yeah, I knew when I wrote it, one of you fuckers was gonna say something like that.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2008, 04:02:09 PM
OK, you've just invalidated any criticism you've ever had over anybody else's driving.
I do it because others are bad drivers. There's a limited amount space there and there are a lot of drivers that have big SUVs and would rather drive in the middle instead of on their side. It may not be much, but those extra few inches could save hundreds of dollars.
I like to scare my passengers sometimes by buzzing parked cars.