Managed to put my Honda ass-first into a guardrail on 90 early Wednesday morning. Spent the next 9 hours in a small town outside Utica at a repair garage pulling lights off other junked Hondas to get me some lighting to drive home...car is definitely totaled, although driveable. Very classy duct tape shield to keep water out of the trunk. Some pics for my humiliation and your viewing pleasure...
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e252/jparks86/PC180889-1.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e252/jparks86/PC180891.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e252/jparks86/PC180890.jpg)
Ouch.
You going to replace the car?
How'd it happen? Let off the throttle when turning? Sorry to hear about the damage, dude...
Wow man that sucks. Sorry about it. What are your options now?
Yikes. How'd it happen?
Don't know what I'm gonna do...my first inclination is to drive as is until the wheels fall off, but I may replace it with another $1500 whatever if something reliable looking shows up on Craigslist.
It was icy as all hell and, if I'm gonna be honest here, I was probably just driving too fast with bad rear tires. VERY slight right hand bend in the interstate and the back end just started to go out. Kinda surprised me 'cause I was only doing about 50, in a row of other cars, no one passing anyone. Back started to go, so I started putting on some more throttle to bring it back in line (I've never had great tires so I'm pretty used to minor slides), but the thing just WOULDN''T come back. Mustha been really slick. So ended up rotating the car almost 180 degrees and slammed the ass end of the thing into the center guardrail. Ripped the bumper cover off and, as you can see, accordioned the rear end. At the shop we banged the quarters back out with a sledgehammer just enough to be able to screw in the new light assemblies. In one of the pics you can see the rear bumper cover screwed on with sheet metal screws. Wicked classy, guy! To add insult to injury, the responding officer gave me a ticket for driving too fast for conditions. Apparently NYS law mandates they do this. Told the guy I didn't really have too much cause to argue with him considering I slid the thing into the guardrail (obviously going too fast for that turn!), but still, it does seem like kicking a guy while he's down! At least the only thing that really got hurt was my pride...my parents have already been getting some serious mileage out of this! Must say, seatbelts don't keep ya from flying around laterally too much though. Cracked my head on the B pillar pretty good!
That sucks. Good thing though is those cars are a dime a dozen... you should be able to find a decent one (albeit not a 96-97) for ~1K
I'm not looking for another Accord...if something turns up, great, but I'm not lookin' for one. It's been a great car, but variety is the spice of life...
Damn dude. How hard did you hit your head? You may want to get it checked out. Other than that though, I'm glad to hear that you're okay.
That sucks man, sorry to hear it. At least it made your day a lot more exciting! You have a pretty cool accident to tell everyone about now, especially because you're not that hurt.
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 08:03:05 AM
Managed to put my Honda ass-first into a guardrail on 90 early Wednesday morning. Spent the next 9 hours in a small town outside Utica at a repair garage pulling lights off other junked Hondas to get me some lighting to drive home...car is definitely totaled, although driveable. Very classy duct tape shield to keep water out of the trunk. Some pics for my humiliation and your viewing pleasure...
Hey it happens. The main thing is you are OK. How hard did you bump your head?
Hopefully hard enough to knock some sense into me...
Not bad at all. I've taken much harder hits :lol:
:rockon:
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 11:39:07 AM
Hopefully hard enough to knock some sense into me...
Not bad at all. I've taken much harder hits :lol:
Lemme guess, accidental jibes?
Don't worry, your brain is still at least SOMEWHAT intact. It was very resourceful of you to immediately graft junkyard parts onto your car! :)
Get a Volvo. :rockon:
Quote from: Laconian on December 19, 2008, 11:58:37 AM
Lemme guess, accidental jibes?
Don't worry, your brain is still at least SOMEWHAT intact. It was very resourceful of you to immediately graft junkyard parts onto your car! :)
hehe, that's exactly waht I was thinking of! Split my head clean open this past New Year's Day doing just that...
I'll get whatever is on craigslist! Unfortuantely, nothing that strikes my fancy right now in my area...
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 12:10:42 PM
hehe, that's exactly waht I was thinking of! Split my head clean open this past New Year's Day doing just that...
I'll get whatever is on craigslist! Unfortuantely, nothing that strikes my fancy right now in my area...
Are you just going to let the insurance total it and take whatever they give you?
no collision on the car...it aint worth it. ill list it on craigslist for a few hundred bucks and roll that towards a different car.
Sorry about the accident Josh.
I was out on the roads today and they were pretty slick. I usually worry more about the other drivers, but there were a couple of times when I could have lost control of my car. I figured the longer I stayed out, the more I was pushing my luck, so I came home, and I don't plan to go back out tonight.
Good luck with finding another car. What's your price range?
I see Josh getting a ripe banana (yellow and black) Aztek and somehow still managing to score with chicks.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 02:21:52 PM
Sorry about the accident Josh.
I was out on the roads today and they were pretty slick. I usually worry more about the other drivers, but there were a couple of times when I could have lost control of my car. I figured the longer I stayed out, the more I was pushing my luck, so I came home, and I don't plan to go back out tonight.
Good luck with finding another car. What's your price range?
Lookin' at stuff priced up to 3 grand, don't intend on spending a penny over 2500. Sub 2k preferably.
Quote from: Laconian on December 19, 2008, 02:25:27 PM
I see Josh getting a ripe banana (yellow and black) Aztek and somehow still managing to score with chicks.
Well, I hope not about the car, but I appreciate the vote of confidence :lol:
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 02:29:42 PM
Lookin' at stuff priced up to 3 grand, don't intend on spending a penny over 2500. Sub 2k preferably.
I know of a great car for around $6K. At those prices, you're going to get a piece of shit.
Saab 9000 CSE Turbo 1995 - $1200 http://providence.craigslist.org/cto/940310590.html
1995 Honda Civic EX with Integra LS Engine Swap - $1800 http://providence.craigslist.org/cto/963919805.html
93 BMW 325I - $2600 http://providence.craigslist.org/cto/961465763.html
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 02:31:31 PM
I know of a great car for around $6K. At those prices, you're going to get a piece of shit.
:nono:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 02:31:31 PM
I know of a great car for around $6K. At those prices, you're going to get a piece of shit.
C'mon, the only cars I've ever owned have been in this price range and I haven't gotten burned yet! If you're careful and stay simple (base Hondas, Subarus, etc.) you can find plenty of decent stuff.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 02:31:31 PM
I know of a great car for around $6K. At those prices, you're going to get a piece of shit.
You are a car snob. How did my brother find a very nice 2000 Accord EX-L V6 for
just $4,000? It's called shopping around. Josh will be fine.
Rear-wheel traction seems to be the culprit in this one. If you're going to keep on living in New England, I'd recommend another Subaru. They're really cheap up there. Toyota All-Tracs are also really good for the money.
Honestly, the worst part of your day sounds like spending the better part of it in Utica. I wouldn't want to be there if my life depended on it.
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:07:09 PM
You are a car snob. How did my brother find a very nice 2000 Accord EX-L V6 for just $4,000? It's called shopping around. Josh will be fine.
:lol:
You've paid me one of the nicest compliments I've ever gotten.....Thanks.... :tounge:
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:07:09 PM
You are a car snob. How did my brother find a very nice 2000 Accord EX-L V6 for just $4,000? It's called shopping around. Josh will be fine.
Rear-wheel traction seems to be the culprit in this one. If you're going to keep on living in New England, I'd recommend another Subaru. They're really cheap up there. Toyota All-Tracs are also really good for the money.
Honestly, the worst part of your day sounds like spending the better part of it in Utica. I wouldn't want to be there if my life depended on it.
:rolleyes: ;)
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:07:09 PM
You are a car snob. How did my brother find a very nice 2000 Accord EX-L V6 for just $4,000? It's called shopping around. Josh will be fine.
Rear-wheel traction seems to be the culprit in this one. If you're going to keep on living in New England, I'd recommend another Subaru. They're really cheap up there. Toyota All-Tracs are also really good for the money.
Honestly, the worst part of your day sounds like spending the better part of it in Utica. I wouldn't want to be there if my life depended on it.
How is Utica any different from western Pennsylvania, or Ohio?
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 02:42:16 PM
C'mon, the only cars I've ever owned have been in this price range and I haven't gotten burned yet! If you're careful and stay simple (base Hondas, Subarus, etc.) you can find plenty of decent stuff.
I was only kidding. If you look around carefully, I'm sure you can find something good. Cars last a lot longer than they used to.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:11:39 PM
How is Utica any different from western Pennsylvania, or Ohio?
There is nothing in Utica. I'd rather shoot myself in the head than spend any relevant amount of time in Utica ever again.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:08:26 PM
:lol:
You've paid me one of the nicest compliments I've ever gotten.....Thanks.... :tounge:
I can't imagine how intolerable you must have been before you were able to afford nice cars. :lol:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:12:23 PM
I was only kidding. If you look around carefully, I'm sure you can find something good. Cars last a lot longer than they used to.
There's a 5-speed Forester that looks too good to be true but I left a vmail...also a 5 speed Focus Zx3....we'll see.
Teuton- worst part was it wasnt even Utica...it was Oriskany. Even more nothing.
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 03:16:59 PM
There's a 5-speed Forester that looks too good to be true but I left a vmail...also a 5 speed Focus Zx3....we'll see.
Teuton- worst part was it wasnt even Utica...it was Oriskany. Even more nothing.
Is that anywhere near Skinectity?
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:14:41 PM
I can't imagine how intolerable you must have been before you were able to afford nice cars. :lol:
I never aspired to nice cars until I was able to afford them. So I wasn't really that bad back then. I drove some real clunkers, but I was always happy to have something to drive.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:18:40 PM
but I was always happy to have something to drive.
And what a good situation that must have been. I would love to be happy to have something to drive.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on December 19, 2008, 03:18:34 PM
Is that anywhere near Skinectity?
schenectady's about 75-100 miles from Oriskany...so for upstate NY, sure :lol:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:18:40 PM
I never aspired to nice cars until I was able to afford them. So I wasn't really that bad back then. I drove some really clunkers, but I was always happy to have something to drive.
You an' me both. I figure I'll ultimately be in better shape than all my friends who drive Audis, Land Rovers, etc., 'cause they can go nowhere but down. :lol:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:18:40 PM
I never aspired to nice cars until I was able to afford them. So I wasn't really that bad back then. I drove some really clunkers, but I was always happy to have something to drive.
You might be worthy of sharing a round of beers with the Teuton if I can ever get out to Boston. Level-headedness is never a bad thing to have.
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 03:16:59 PM
There's a 5-speed Forester that looks too good to be true but I left a vmail...also a 5 speed Focus Zx3....we'll see.
I want a 5-speed Forester. If you get it, make sure the head gaskets and timing belt have both been changed after 100k. Good luck!
QuoteTeuton- worst part was it wasnt even Utica...it was Oriskany. Even more nothing.
I have never heard of this Oriskanky. If it's worse than Utica, it'd be almost certain death for me.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on December 19, 2008, 03:20:49 PM
And what a good situation that must have been. I would love to be happy to have something to drive.
You're as happy as you decide to be. You're surrounded by more luxury than I was at your age. My family usually had a crappy car (though a nice house), and all my friends drove beaters, so there was no expectation of anything better. Change your expectations, and you can be happy with what you have.
Quote from: J86 on December 19, 2008, 03:22:18 PM
You an' me both. I figure I'll ultimately be in better shape than all my friends who drive Audis, Land Rovers, etc., 'cause they can go nowhere but down. :lol:
You're right. That's what my mother always used to say. You get all sorts of nice things too early in life, and there's nothing to look forward to. I think she was right.
Pity the people whose lives peak in high school, or even college.
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:22:56 PM
You might be worthy of sharing a round of beers with the Teuton if I can ever get out to Boston. Level-headedness is never a bad thing to have.
I live in CT, not Boston. And I work in New York. If you ever make it over this way, we can sure get together for a drink.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:27:10 PM
I live in CT, not Boston. And I work in New York. If you ever make it over this way, we can sure get together for a drink.
I was referring to the Boston GTG, and now that gas is cheap, it might happen eventually. We'll see.
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:28:24 PM
I was referring to the Boston GTG, and now that gas is cheap, it might happen eventually. We'll see.
We've also had 2 GTGs in New York to see the auto show. Maybe you can make the next one. It's the week after Easter.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:24:52 PM
You're as happy as you decide to be. You're surrounded by more luxury than I was at your age. My family usually had a crappy car (though a nice house), and all my friends drove beaters, so there was no expectation of anything better. Change your expectations, and you can be happy with what you have.
Quite true. I am pretty spoiled and it would be nice to have a car, but many my age do not have a car and I am starting to feel that I deserve a car (I do not). I don't know where I am going with this, but everyone else around here at least has a car and I am the last of my friends to get one despite the fact that I am an enthusiast and think about cars more than anyone; I want one more than everyone else ever has, I've wanted one since I was 5. That's a pretty spoiled attitude though. Hell, my twin sister has a car and I don't, and she hates cars. That's what makes me most angry. I'm undeservedly bitter.
Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on December 19, 2008, 03:42:50 PM
Quite true. I am pretty spoiled and it would be nice to have a car, but many my age do not have a car and I am starting to feel that I deserve a car (I do not). I don't know where I am going with this, but everyone else around here at least has a car and I am the last of my friends to get one despite the fact that I am an enthusiast and think about cars more than anyone; I want one more than everyone else ever has, I've wanted one since I was 5. That's a pretty spoiled attitude though. Hell, my twin sister has a car and I don't, and she hates cars. That's what makes me most angry. I'm undeservedly bitter.
Dude, you have nothing to be bitter about, so change your attitude. As Tony Soprano said to Carmela when they were in the middle of their (aborted) divorce: "You're entitled to shit!" :tounge:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:48:35 PM
Dude, you have nothing to be bitter about, so change your attitude. As Tony Soprano said to Carmela when they were in the middle of their (aborted) divorce: "You're entitled to shit!" :tounge:
Yup
wow man, I'm sorry to hear about that, but at least it wasn't worse. Hopefully you'll find something else soon!
Quote from: dazzleman on December 19, 2008, 03:11:39 PM
How is Utica any different from western Pennsylvania, or Ohio?
Utica has become known as "The City that God Forgot", if that's any indication.
For Revolutionary War history buffs, Oriskany is a historic place. It was the site of the Battle of Oriskany, where Patriot forces led by Gen. Herkimer were ambushed by British forces (actually, they were mostly Loyalist Americans and Native Americans) while marching to support besieged forces at nearby Fort Stanwix in Rome.
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 03:07:09 PM
You are a car snob. How did my brother find a very nice 2000 Accord EX-L V6 for just $4,000? It's called shopping around. Josh will be fine.
Rear-wheel traction seems to be the culprit in this one. If you're going to keep on living in New England, I'd recommend another Subaru. They're really cheap up there. Toyota All-Tracs are also really good for the money.
Honestly, the worst part of your day sounds like spending the better part of it in Utica. I wouldn't want to be there if my life depended on it.
Yes, because all-wheel drive would help with lateral traction. ;)
Quote from: Psilos on December 19, 2008, 10:34:10 PM
Yes, because all-wheel drive would help with lateral traction. ;)
Also, the braking and the steering.
Thank you, I was beginning to believe I was the only person left that understood.
Quote from: MX793 on December 19, 2008, 09:58:49 PM
Utica has become known as "The City that God Forgot", if that's any indication.
For Revolutionary War history buffs, Oriskany is a historic place. It was the site of the Battle of Oriskany, where Patriot forces led by Gen. Herkimer were ambushed by British forces (actually, they were mostly Loyalist Americans and Native Americans) while marching to support besieged forces at nearby Fort Stanwix in Rome.
so I guess thats where the town of Herkimer got its name huh..its nto too far down the road!
Quote from: MX793 on December 19, 2008, 09:58:49 PM
Utica has become known as "The City that God Forgot", if that's any indication.
:lol:
Quote
Fort Stanwix in Rome.
:praise:
Quote from: Psilos on December 19, 2008, 10:34:10 PM
Yes, because all-wheel drive would help with lateral traction. ;)
Do you defy the power of all wheel drive?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 10:35:37 PM
Also, the braking and the steering.
Thank you, I was beginning to believe I was the only person left that understood.
:ohyeah:
Quote from: the Teuton on December 19, 2008, 11:48:21 PM
Do you defy the power of all wheel drive?
OMG! SNOWzzz! Must uz Sc00bar-uiuuuuuu or dEaTh in SNOWzz!
;)
Alternatively, I could say:
Do you defy the power of physics?
:lol:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on December 19, 2008, 10:35:37 PM
Also, the braking and the steering.
Thank you, I was beginning to believe I was the only person left that understood.
Haha... yeah. So many people forget that AWD only helps while accelerating. In fact, his rear wheel lateral traction would have been worse had he been driving with AWD since some of the tire's traction would be spent accelerating/maintaining speed (assuming he was on the gas when the slide began).
Charlie, you point out a common and dangerous misconception. People think that 4WD gives them the ability to drive in snow and ice as they would on dry roads. That's a very dangerous misconception, as people who go off the road and into a tree while driving 50 mph on snow in a 4WD vehicle can attest to.
My car is mediocre in the snow, at best. I was fishtailing yesterday, and there wasn't even that much snow. In a big storm, I probably wouldn't have been able to drive at all. Of course, Greg pointed out that it might help if I had snow tires..... :lol: I haven't actually used snow tires in over 20 years.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 20, 2008, 05:11:57 AM
Charlie, you point out a common and dangerous misconception. People think that 4WD gives them the ability to drive in snow and ice as they would on dry roads. That's a very dangerous misconception, as people who go off the road and into a tree while driving 50 mph on snow in a 4WD vehicle can attest to.
My car is mediocre in the snow, at best. I was fishtailing yesterday, and there wasn't even that much snow. In a big storm, I probably wouldn't have been able to drive at all. Of course, Greg pointed out that it might help if I had snow tires..... :lol: I haven't actually used snow tires in over 20 years.
I actually have people trying to tell me I'd be fine with summer tires in the snow since I have AWD, when I tell them I'd like to replace my Turanzas. I look at them in horror because of what they just said, and they don't get it. Even people at the dealer were like, "you have AWD! It doesn't matter what tires you have now!" Accelerating is one thing. Turning or stopping is very much something else.
Because it snowed so much here last night, and I obviously need more practice, took my buddy's Sooby Impreza to the parking lot reacquaint myself with winter handling :lol:
Quote from: CosmicSaab on December 20, 2008, 10:03:10 AM
I actually have people trying to tell me I'd be fine with summer tires in the snow since I have AWD, when I tell them I'd like to replace my Turanzas. I look at them in horror because of what they just said, and they don't get it. Even people at the dealer were like, "you have AWD! It doesn't matter what tires you have now!" Accelerating is one thing. Turning or stopping is very much something else.
I always find it hard to understand how so many people can be so badly misinformed about something. It has to be willful. The human race is a stupid, stupid outfit at times.
Quote from: J86 on December 20, 2008, 10:12:37 AM
Because it snowed so much here last night, and I obviously need more practice, took my buddy's Sooby Impreza to the parking lot reacquaint myself with winter handling :lol:
Dude, you have to be a really fun guy to have around..... :ohyeah:
Quote from: dazzleman on December 20, 2008, 11:06:11 AM
I always find it hard to understand how so many people can be so badly misinformed about something. It has to be willful. The human race is a stupid, stupid outfit at times.
I blame marketing departments, particularly those of Audi and Subaru.
Yeah, bring me the head of Paul Hogan.
Quote from: TBR on December 20, 2008, 12:39:58 PM
I blame marketing departments, particularly those of Audi and Subaru.
I agree. AWD vehicles are marketed as being great for snow, and once you get some people to believe something, they pass it on, and you get to where we are now.
It's also a problem that people don't really understand how traction in cars work. When I did the Audi Driving Experience, they spent a good chuck of classroom time talking about the differences between traction for steering and traction for braking and accelerating and how they relate to one another. If every driver's ed program in the country did similar things, I bet it would help a lot.
Having driven all possible combinations, I'd take a 2WD (RWD preferably) car with good snow tires over an AWD with all seasons.
I've been driving my 2WD Ranger will all-season sort of tires over the semi-icy roads here for a week. I haven't had any problems.
Quote from: The Pirate on December 20, 2008, 02:29:08 PM
Having driven all possible combinations, I'd take a 2WD (RWD preferably) car with good snow tires over an AWD with all seasons.
however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car
Quote from: r0tor on December 20, 2008, 02:48:22 PM
however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car
Very likely. Hehe, that's the one combination that I haven't driven.
FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.
With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.
The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.
The whole "I HAVE 4WD/ AWD" thing cracks me up w/ truck owners.
I pulled a few trucks out of ditches w/ my Subaru back in the day (1991-1993, 1979 wagon) and they're always the ones off the highways in Wyoming/ UTah..
Some people just drive like it's perfect weather out. ?!
Quote from: GoCougs on December 20, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.
With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.
The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.
I would think that a RWD with LSD would be better than one with an open. Unless having both rear wheels getting power makes it extra squirrely. I've done RWD/Open-diff in the snow and while handling was manageable, finding traction to accelerate could be a chore (especially when trying to take off on hills).
Quote from: MX793 on December 23, 2008, 08:34:56 AM
I would think that a RWD with LSD would be better than one with an open. Unless having both rear wheels getting power makes it extra squirrely. I've done RWD/Open-diff in the snow and while handling was manageable, finding traction to accelerate could be a chore (especially when trying to take off on hills).
Yes, I have found RWD w/LSD (and no traction control especially) to be just far too unpredictable at anything above about 20 mph.
Quote from: r0tor on December 20, 2008, 02:48:22 PM
however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car
Not in the fun department. :evildude:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 23, 2008, 07:47:38 AM
The whole "I HAVE 4WD/ AWD" thing cracks me up w/ truck owners.
I pulled a few trucks out of ditches w/ my Subaru back in the day (1991-1993, 1979 wagon) and they're always the ones off the highways in Wyoming/ UTah..
Some people just drive like it's perfect weather out. ?!
Agreed. I prefer a Subaru to my 4WD pickup truck in almost all bad weather conditions--the single problem with the Subaru is that it's not as high as the truck, making it prone to getting stuck easier in deep snow.
Quote from: hotrodalex on December 23, 2008, 11:30:21 AM
Not in the fun department. :evildude:
I had a little fun on Saturday, when all the roads around me had packed snow on them. I have a RWD car, and I don't have snow tires.
Getting stuck, or really losing control, is not a lot of fun, though.
Quote from: dazzleman on December 23, 2008, 11:59:28 AM
I had a little fun on Saturday, when all the roads around me had packed snow on them. I have a RWD car, and I don't have snow tires.
Getting stuck, or really losing control, is not a lot of fun, though.
I had fun about 2 weeks ago in a high school parking lot. It was a Friday night and it was snowy, so absolutely no one was around. Did donuts and stuff for like half an hour. :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on December 23, 2008, 08:48:42 AM
Yes, I have found RWD w/LSD (and no traction control especially) to be just far too unpredictable at anything above about 20 mph.
Yea, my RWD car with LSD has scared the complete shit out of me on more then 1 occasion mid corner while applying some gas.... thank you traction and stability control for saving me
Quote from: GoCougs on December 20, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.
With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.
The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.
Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.
Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.
Quote from: ChrisV on December 23, 2008, 12:38:17 PM
Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.
Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.
Studded tires also aren't legal everywhere, unfortunately. Studs are illegal in Michigan and Minnesota (two states where they'd be really useful).
First, Subies rock in the winter.
Second, BMW sold it's E36 Cold Weather package with an LSD up until 1997 or so.
Third, I'm not sure if open diffs are better or not.
on an LSD if one wheel spins, by definition both are spinning. Open diff you can have just 1 spinning. You when you go around a turn, you can spin 1 tire without troubles... both tires spinning and your back end snaps around faster then you can imagine.
Quote from: r0tor on December 23, 2008, 05:41:21 PM
on an LSD if one wheel spins, by definition both are spinning. Open diff you can have just 1 spinning. You when you go around a turn, you can spin 1 tire without troubles... both tires spinning and your back end snaps around faster then you can imagine.
Trust me, if you are going around a corner and give it too much gas (or suddenly lift the throttle) with an open diff and break a wheel loose, the back end will still come around. I pulled a 180 on a highway ramp because I applied some gas just as I hit a slick patch. And breaking one wheel loose while going straight on a crowned road will cause the back end to step out sideways towards the ditch/curb with an open diff too.
Quote from: the Teuton on December 23, 2008, 05:13:46 PM
First, Subies rock in the winter.
Second, BMW sold it's E36 Cold Weather package with an LSD up until 1997 or so.
Third, I'm not sure if open diffs are better or not.
Sure, but that's just because they get more traction while accelerating, and you can rally the crap out of them. :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on December 23, 2008, 05:56:12 PM
Trust me, if you are going around a corner and give it too much gas (or suddenly lift the throttle) with an open diff and break a wheel loose, the back end will still come around. I pulled a 180 on a highway ramp because I applied some gas just as I hit a slick patch. And breaking one wheel loose while going straight on a crowned road will cause the back end to step out sideways towards the ditch/curb with an open diff too.
An open diff will act as an LSD on a left hand turn owing to the vary nature of how a differential works. Right hand turn and an open diff will only spin the right also owing to the nature of how a differential works.
The danger of RWD and LSD in the snow has more to do with straight line travel. The tendency for the rear to float if not all together come about is unpredictable. At least on turns you know what to expect.
Quote from: ChrisV on December 23, 2008, 12:38:17 PM
Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.
Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.
In my experience studs definitely help in virgin snow, as after all the vehicle will be compacting snow as it goes about its business.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 23, 2008, 08:14:03 PM
An open diff will act as an LSD on a left hand turn owing to the vary nature of how a differential works. Right hand turn and an open diff will only spin the right also owing to the nature of how a differential works.
An open differential will spin whichever wheel is easiest to break loose, typically the inside drive wheel (regardless of which direction you're cornering). Jack up either drive wheel on an open diff, and the car will not move, it will just spin whichever wheel is up in the air. It will not act like a limited slip when one wheel is jacked up but like an open diff if the other is the lifted wheel.
The turn I looped it on was a right-hander, BTW. My car also did not favor left handers to right handers when doing donuts in the snow, as it would if the differential behaved differently depending on the direction the car was turning.
Wow, gocougs is hilarious
Two wheels spinning at the same speed will move you better in a straight line rather than one wheel spinning in an unequal fashion. (To the other)
Besides, most LSD's that aren't performance oriented are viscous........so there shouldn't be too much of an abrupt power shift.
Quote from: 2o6 on December 23, 2008, 09:30:44 PM
Two wheels spinning at the same speed will move you better in a straight line rather than one wheel spinning in an unequal fashion. (To the other)
Besides, most LSD's that aren't performance oriented are viscous........so there shouldn't be too much of an abrupt power shift.
On a crowned road (as almost 100% are), both rear wheels breaking loose under power when traveling in a straight line will cause the rear end to immediately swing out of line towards the ditch/curb. With an open diff, only one wheel will typically break loose under power while the other will maintain rolling traction. This generally reduces the tendancy for the back end to step out of line. Although from experience, this will still happen with an open diff as well. I remember my car crabbing a bit when trying to scale slippery hills when I had my 240SX. Even on my FWD with an open diff, the front end will tend to seek the side of the road when the fronts break loose and start to spin.
Quote from: MX793 on December 23, 2008, 08:57:12 PM
An open differential will spin whichever wheel is easiest to break loose, typically the inside drive wheel (regardless of which direction you're cornering). Jack up either drive wheel on an open diff, and the car will not move, it will just spin whichever wheel is up in the air. It will not act like a limited slip when one wheel is jacked up but like an open diff if the other is the lifted wheel.
The turn I looped it on was a right-hander, BTW. My car also did not favor left handers to right handers when doing donuts in the snow, as it would if the differential behaved differently depending on the direction the car was turning.
As a hint: when accelerating in a straight line, with equal traction under both tires as on pavement, why is it ALWAYS the right tire that spins with an open diff? The answer here explains why on a left hand turn an open diff will generally act like an LSD.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 05:54:12 AM
As a hint: when accelerating in a straight line, with equal traction under both tires as on pavement, why is it ALWAYS the right tire that spins with an open diff? The answer here explains why on a left hand turn an open diff will generally act like an LSD.
Only explanation I can think of is the fact that the road is banked would pull the car to the right...
But if your car always pulls right... it's prob cause of unequal length driveshafts
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 24, 2008, 06:22:00 AM
Only explanation I can think of is the fact that the road is banked would pull the car to the right...
Actually, it will happen on a perfectly flat surface.
In all instances, straight (right tire spins), right turn (right tire spins), left turn (both tires spin), the open differential is doing exactly as it was designed, if that's any hint.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 06:36:30 AM
Actually, it will happen on a perfectly flat surface.
In all instances, straight (right tire spins), right turn (right tire spins), left turn (both tires spin), the open differential is doing exactly as it was designed, if that's any hint.
Can't be the case on every car. I will try this on my car tonight.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on December 24, 2008, 07:09:04 AM
Can't be the case on every car. I will try this on my car tonight.
On a FWD car, with a transverse engine especially (hint, hint), I doubt you'd see it.
This more or less started because of the discussion regarding RWD; and my commentary was related only to RWD.
There is nothing in the differential that should favor the right wheel. The only asymmetrical feature in the device is the ring gear that holds the pinions, and that isn't fixed to either of the half-shafts, it can spin at a different speed from either of the outputs. And I'm 99.9% positive I've had only my left wheel spin when I had my RWD car.
And like I said, it didn't favor one direction when doing donuts. If it acted like a limited slip in a left turn but not in the right, it would snap oversteer when making a left but not when making a right. It didn't do that. I've also witnessed semis with open differentials only spin the left sides when stopped on ice. I've even seen them spin the left side on one axle and the right on the other.
The only thing I can think of that would favor the right drive wheel spinning is the fact that the left side of the car is generally heavier than the right (for a LHD car, at least). On a uniform surface, that would mean that the right wheel would have less traction than the left and would be the first to break loose.
Yes, you're 100% correct that nothing inside your average open diff favors the right wheel, yet as we all know, the right wheel will always spin under a loss of traction when in a straight direction, like a hard launch from a stop sign.
The hint to Sporty was the transverse engine - a longitudinal engine w/clockwise crank rotation (as viewed from the front of the engine) as all modern engines are will load the pinion in the clockwise direction - this will plant the left tire and unload the right tire; ergo, the tell-tale sign of the peg-leg, right-wheel burnout.
When turning right, this planting of the left tire is compounded by left-sided body roll as the vehicle negotiates the turn, further guaranteeing spinning only the right wheel.
When turning left, this planting effect is counteracted by right-sided body roll as the vehicle negotiates the turn, evening traction between right and left, thereby letting both tires spin.
This phenomenon in my experience is at least 95% reliable, and reaches across all RWD vehicle types that I've had; raised trucks, standard height trucks, and cars big and medium. A poor man's LSD is to use an air shock, block in the spring, or even a one-sided roll bar, to prevent this planting action.
This being the holiday season, I won't even charge NACar nor Psilos for their edumacation.
Esqueeze me? Where did I disbelieve you? :rolleyes:
I'm stilling waiting to pass judgment until I see someone who knows about these things (not saying you don't...) responds.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 12:40:46 PM
Yes, you're 100% correct that nothing inside your average open diff favors the right wheel, yet as we all know, the right wheel will always spin under a loss of traction when in a straight direction, like a hard launch from a stop sign.
Usually, but not always. On ice and snow, you'll find that it doesn't necessarily favor the right wheel as consistantly as on dry or otherwise more uniform surfaces. Partly due to less uniformity in traction, and partly because when traction is low, it doesn't take much torque to break the tires loose and you don't get as much torque induced weight transfer from left to right. If the left is on the slicker surface or otherwise easier to spin (e.g. jacked up in the air), the left will be the one that spins.
Case in point, this V6 gen 3 Camaro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNVJRbGvy0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNVJRbGvy0)
Or, if you watch this E46 3 series doing donuts in the snow and watch the rooster tails off the wheels, you'll see that it's typically the inside wheel that is the one throwing snow regardless of which way the car is turning. Even when straightening out after a drift or donut, you can see the rooster tail switch between tires (sometimes both will throw a tail simultaneously).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAJmsuDfkVA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAJmsuDfkVA&feature=related)
Quote from: MX793 on December 24, 2008, 01:54:19 PM
Usually, but not always. On ice and snow, you'll find that it doesn't necessarily favor the right wheel as consistantly as on dry or otherwise more uniform surfaces. Partly due to less uniformity in traction, and partly because when traction is low, it doesn't take much torque to break the tires loose and you don't get as much torque induced weight transfer from left to right. If the left is on the slicker surface or otherwise easier to spin (e.g. jacked up in the air), the left will be the one that spins.
Case in point, this V6 gen 3 Camaro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNVJRbGvy0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNVJRbGvy0)
Or, if you watch this E46 3 series doing donuts in the snow and watch the rooster tails off the wheels, you'll see that it's typically the inside wheel that is the one throwing snow regardless of which way the car is turning. Even when straightening out after a drift or donut, you can see the rooster tail switch between tires (sometimes both will throw a tail simultaneously).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAJmsuDfkVA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAJmsuDfkVA&feature=related)
So then you agree with me?
Sure there are anomalies ("95%").
FWIW, it was not uncommon for V6 gen 3 Camaros to be outfitted with an LSD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9ntwoLjVA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9ntwoLjVA&feature=related)
Side note: That 2.8L V6 sounds just utterly awful.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 03:07:50 PM
So then you agree with me?
Sure there are anomalies ("95%").
FWIW, it was not uncommon for V6 gen 3 Camaros to be outfitted with an LSD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9ntwoLjVA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9ntwoLjVA&feature=related)
Honestly, I don't agree with you at all. Both from experience and from a mechanical sense, I don't agree with what you're saying.
There is
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 12:40:46 PM
Yes, you're 100% correct that nothing inside your average open diff favors the right wheel, yet as we all know, the right wheel will always spin under a loss of traction when in a straight direction, like a hard launch from a stop sign.
The hint to Sporty was the transverse engine - a longitudinal engine w/clockwise crank rotation (as viewed from the front of the engine) as all modern engines are will load the pinion in the clockwise direction - this will plant the left tire and unload the right tire; ergo, the tell-tale sign of the peg-leg, right-wheel burnout.
When turning right, this planting of the left tire is compounded by left-sided body roll as the vehicle negotiates the turn, further guaranteeing spinning only the right wheel.
When turning left, this planting effect is counteracted by right-sided body roll as the vehicle negotiates the turn, evening traction between right and left, thereby letting both tires spin.
This phenomenon in my experience is at least 95% reliable, and reaches across all RWD vehicle types that I've had; raised trucks, standard height trucks, and cars big and medium. A poor man's LSD is to use an air shock, block in the spring, or even a one-sided roll bar, to prevent this planting action.
This being the holiday season, I won't even charge NACar nor Psilos for their edumacation.
I don't agree with this... if you goose the gas in a turn on a slick surface w/an open diff, the inside tire will slip. Left or right. The only explanation for one side breaking loose before the other is the tranny placement making for uneven driveshaft lengths.... and even with that the lengths have to be significantly different.
I don't have much experience w/RWD or AWD cars, but all my FWD cars have had relatively unequal length setups, and haven't really ever peg legged during a burnout or quick start.
For RWD I could see this being possible as the engine twists the chassis to load one side during acceleration... but within the realm of non-dragsters, and ESPECIALLY in low-torque situations like when its snowing out this should be a non issue...
I dunno... I'm not convinced...
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 03:07:50 PM
So then you agree with me?
Sure there are anomalies ("95%").
I agree that on flat, dry pavement, it's usually the right tire that breaks loose first (as you said, probably 95% of the time, if not more). It occured to me after posting that the ring gear is almost always on the left/driver's side of the pumpkin, which would result in the torque from the driveshaft causing a tendancy for the right wheel to want to lift and the left to plant. I'm not sure the effect is as prominent on IRS cars as it is with a live axle, though anecdotal evidence on youtube and the like would indicate that even IRS equipped vehicles with open diffs favor the right wheel when doing a brake stand.
From personal experience, I can think of times when I took a hard left on dry pavement with the throttle planted and only the left tire was burning out (the car wasn't really drifting like it would have if both were lighting up). In fact, I don't think I ever got both wheels to burn when cornering in good traction. So I do not agree that you'll always burn both tires when making a left as though the car had a limited slip. It may take harder cornering when turning left than right to initiate the one-wheel-peel, but a left handed one-wheel-peel will occur on a car with an open diff.
And on slick surfaces like snow and ice, the open diff definately does not behave like a limited slip when making a left. For that matter, I think you'd find that it favors the right wheel a far lower percentage of the time when going straight. When traction is that low, lateral weight transfer caused by torque from the driveshaft will be minimal. You'll spin one of the tires well before you transfer enough load to make a difference in traction. When turning, you'll usually spin only the inside wheel.
Uh, so you guys are commenting in the negative, and save for MX793, no one has even anecdotal experience?
By my guestimate I've logged about 300,000 miles in RWD, open diff vehicles - the phenomenon is very, very consistent, in most conditions.
The physics are relatively basic, too - you can't not load up the left and unload the right, by definition it must happen.
As to Sporty's FWD hint, a lateral-mounted engine the application of torque to the axles doesn't come in counter clockwise and at a right angle, so I doubt you'll see consistency as you do with RWD.
I don't believe your explanation on the loading of the pinion explain how it loads one side. While I'll agree it might favor one wheel while accelerating in a straight line, in order for the car to not spin the inside wheel coming out of corner, the amount of fiction necessary to ensure that the inside wheel spins as fast as the outside would be ridiculous. If that much friction existed, all open differentials would be horribly inefficient.
The difference in the amount of available friction between two wheels while trying to accelerate through a corner is tremendous. To insist that an open differential will still divert torque equally between the two wheels means that both wheels are experiencing equal forces. For that to happen, there has to be a huge amount of resistance in the drivetrain to the inner wheel. That kind of friction simply isn't there, it'd be too inefficient of a design.
Here's a good, clear example of a left-handed one-wheel-peel I managed to find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_QALXv6xE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_QALXv6xE&feature=related)
And another, though it's not quite as clear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Kj6-nuIlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Kj6-nuIlg)
Quote from: MX793 on December 23, 2008, 12:54:26 PM
Studded tires also aren't legal everywhere, unfortunately. Studs are illegal in Michigan and Minnesota (two states where they'd be really useful).
As far as I can tell though, the only penalty for running studs in Michigan is a $60 or fix-it type ticket, which is well worth the risk.
Oh, and Tire Rack will ship you tires with the studs pressed in, that seems to be the easiest way to do it.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 24, 2008, 12:40:46 PM
Yes, you're 100% correct that nothing inside your average open diff favors the right wheel, yet as we all know, the right wheel will always spin under a loss of traction when in a straight direction, like a hard launch from a stop sign.
With a solid rear axle, yes. Other independant type suspensions are not so predictable as that.
Quote from: MrH on December 24, 2008, 07:36:02 PM
I don't believe your explanation on the loading of the pinion explain how it loads one side. While I'll agree it might favor one wheel while accelerating in a straight line, in order for the car to not spin the inside wheel coming out of corner, the amount of fiction necessary to ensure that the inside wheel spins as fast as the outside would be ridiculous. If that much friction existed, all open differentials would be horribly inefficient.
The difference in the amount of available friction between two wheels while trying to accelerate through a corner is tremendous. To insist that an open differential will still divert torque equally between the two wheels means that both wheels are experiencing equal forces. For that to happen, there has to be a huge amount of resistance in the drivetrain to the inner wheel. That kind of friction simply isn't there, it'd be too inefficient of a design.
If you believe it for straight-line scenario, why not for a left-hand turn? A differential doesn't know anything about speeds, turns or the like - it knows only forces. If the traction force is approximately equal left to right, why wouldn't both tires spin? The practical result is that the inside tire will spin approximately at the same speed as the outside, and bring the car around.
I have done many, many, many left-hand donuts (read: both tires spinning) in open-diff vehicles.
Quote from: MX793 on December 24, 2008, 10:18:21 PM
Here's a good, clear example of a left-handed one-wheel-peel I managed to find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_QALXv6xE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_QALXv6xE&feature=related)
But notice that the Miata has to make it around a full 360 before anything starts spinning - it's so far pitched onto the right it has not chance but to spin the left.
Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Kj6-nuIlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Kj6-nuIlg)
But notice that 80% of what happens is a left-hand slide by benefit of the phenomenon I described (both tires spinning) - as he slows and tightens the turn the car pitches toward the passenger side, unloading the driver side tire, and sending only it up in smoke.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 27, 2008, 06:37:17 PM
But notice that 80% of what happens is a left-hand slide by benefit of the phenomenon I described (both tires spinning) - as he slows and tightens the turn the car pitches toward the passenger side, unloading the driver side tire, and sending only it up in smoke.
I don't think both were burning. Maybe very briefly at the initial transition when the left started to break loose. Momentum alone can get the back end to slide around during a 1-wheel-peel. The fact that only one tire has rolling friction at the back makes it all the easier to get it to swing around. Hence why the BMW drifting in the snow that I posted earlier was able to swing the tail around in a left handed slide despite only one rear wheel (the inside) throwing a rooster tail. Holds true in the dry too.
Quote from: MX793 on December 27, 2008, 07:40:20 PM
I don't think both were burning. Maybe very briefly at the initial transition when the left started to break loose. Momentum alone can get the back end to slide around during a 1-wheel-peel. The fact that only one tire has rolling friction at the back makes it all the easier to get it to swing around. Hence why the BMW drifting in the snow that I posted earlier was able to swing the tail around in a left handed slide despite only one rear wheel (the inside) throwing a rooster tail. Holds true in the dry too.
It never would have slid on pavement at such slow speed and with relatively little steering input without both tires spinning.
What I saw in that BMW video was both rear tires spinning - there's no way you're going to get such low speed over-steer without that.
I'd like to retire the "I'm an idiot" thread and redirect positive energy to the "New Car!!" thread instead :lol: