Is the status symbol aspect of vehicle ownership more important than the function or cost/performance ratio to you?
Are the luxury brand vehicles actually worth the added cost? Is a Lexus better than a Toyota? Lincoln better than a Ford? Is a Mercedes really a better vehicle than a Buick? Or even a Dodge?
My feeling is that the luxury brands are taking advantage of peoples need to feel superior in some way. Of course, that's an age old game with the manufacturers. I'm surprised some people can't see through it.
I drive a gay hairdresser's car.
So no, status/symbol doesn't mean anything to me.
I think luxury cars are a great way for the elite to exert their superiority on peasants
Quote from: thecarnut on October 30, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
I drive a gay hairdresser's car.
So no, status/symbol doesn't mean anything to me.
Actually, the Miata is a performance vehicle design. The perception of it being a "gay" car is kind of ridiculous.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 30, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
I drive a gay hairdresser's car.
So no, status/symbol doesn't mean anything to me.
In some ways, "anti-status" is a form of status in itself. Look at how popular Subarus, Priuses, old diesel Benzes etc are in the PNW and New Hampshire. If what a car represents brings its owner a sense of pride it is a status symbol.
I am not a big fan of speaking via car. I always felt a little silly driving the Z. I mean I loved the way it looked and it drove OK, but I feel like the image it portrayed was very silly. YEs, I am a douchebag bro, but I don't want to wear that on my sleeve. I kind of like that the Civic is "just a car". TBH though next go round I could do a Bimmer.
Quote from: shp4man on October 30, 2015, 09:33:06 AM
Is the status symbol aspect of vehicle ownership more important than the function or cost/performance ratio to you?
Are the luxury brand vehicles actually worth the added cost? Is a Lexus better than a Toyota? Lincoln better than a Ford? Is a Mercedes really a better vehicle than a Buick? Or even a Dodge?
My feeling is that the luxury brands are taking advantage of peoples need to feel superior in some way. Of course, that's an age old game with the manufacturers. I'm surprised some people can't see through it.
As with most luxury goods, they're in most cases objectively better to someone with a discerning taste. They're then frequently bought by people who wouldn't notice those advantages or don't especially care.
I don't care at all, but I find myself drawn to the slightly less-popular cars. Which emphasize function over form/popularity.
I would LOOOOVE a Baja right now, for no good reason. :huh:
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on October 30, 2015, 03:16:39 PM
I don't care at all, but I find myself drawn to the slightly less-popular cars. Which emphasize function over form/popularity.
I would LOOOOVE a Baja right now, for no good reason. :huh:
A Baja? ;)
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0297/6089/products/Curb_Baja_Bug_Art_1024x1024.jpg?v=1425223879)
I fucking hate 99% of people, so I don't care what they think as long as they leave me the fuck alone.
I was kind of happy to trade the Acura for a Subaru. And my car after the G37 won't be a luxury brand either. I don't want to put on airs, even if that wasn't our intent when we bought the cars in the first place.
Quote from: Laconian on October 30, 2015, 07:07:08 PM
I was kind of happy to trade the Acura for a Subaru. And my car after the G37 won't be a luxury brand either. I don't want to put on airs, even if that wasn't our intent when we bought the cars in the first place.
Why? In your region, neither are particularly flashy cars, and if you get your car serviced at the dealer, luxo-marques typically treat you better
Yeah, I don't think politeness of the dealer service relationship is really a factor when buying a new car for very many people.
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 12:36:35 AM
Yeah, I don't think politeness of the dealer service relationship is really a factor when buying a new car for very many people.
You don't think the dealer experience is a factor for people buying a
new car? Anecdotally, my folks are replacing my mom's A4 and the fact that the BMW dealer has made maintenance/servicing a cinch for them, while Audi has made things more annoying, is a factor in why she'll probably end up with a 3 wagon.
Also, whether it is or not makes no difference in Laconians case. He mentioned he was happy to get out of a luxo brand, and I don't think cost was the issue. I'm guessing image isn't a huge problem, considering where he lives and what he drove. I'm wondering why he'd be happy to get out of a car with a premium badge with all that said
Dealer experience was one reason why Lexus did so well from the get go. There is a difference in service at premium dealers vs the more mainstream marques. It matters for the people buying these types of cars.
He said he didn't want to put on airs, i.e. image was the problem.
Did I touch a nerve or something? You clearly do place a lot of importance on the status symbol aspect of car ownership...
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 12:52:53 AM
He said he didn't want to put on airs, i.e. image was the problem.
Did I touch a nerve or something? You clearly do place a lot of importance on the status symbol aspect of car ownership...
Lol u ok dude? Don't flatter yourself
All I'm saying is I find it kinda weird, considering he didn't/doesn't drive anything particularly flashy, especially given what he does and where he works/lives.
Uh huh.
Whether or not you call it status, almost everybody cares to some extent about the image the car they drive projects. That doesn't mean necessarily that everybody's a badge snob, but just as one chooses to dress a certain way, one chooses to be seen in a certain kind of car; and most of the time practicality is at best a second thought.
almost every pair of pants serves the same practical purpose; just as nearly every car will serve the same basic purpose. But we don't want just utility; we want something more than to keep our ass covered and we want something more than basic transportation- even if we don't necessarily need it.
I'm glad I'm not almost everybody.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 31, 2015, 02:08:29 AM
Whether or not you call it status, almost everybody cares to some extent about the image the car they drive projects. That doesn't mean necessarily that everybody's a badge snob, but just as one chooses to dress a certain way, one chooses to be seen in a certain kind of car; and most of the time practicality is at best a second thought.
almost every pair of pants serves the same practical purpose; just as nearly every car will serve the same basic purpose. But we don't want just utility; we want something more than to keep our ass covered and we want something more than basic transportation- even if we don't necessarily need it.
:hesaid:
Also, in Wimmer's words, history/heritage means something and you can't separate that sentiment from badge snobbery. It's just that someone who appreciates history/heritage doesn't have a negative connotation whereas someone who is a brand snob does have a negative connotation.
I'm not a wine snob but I won't buy wine in a cardboard box. And I prefer a wine bottle to not have a twist off top. It cheapens the experience.
The snob factor is relevant to me, yes. I'd love to say that I only care about the driving or the car or whatever but I'd be lying.
Quote from: veeman on October 31, 2015, 08:43:41 AM
:hesaid:
Also, in Wimmer's words, history/heritage means something and you can't separate that sentiment from badge snobbery. It's just that someone who appreciates history/heritage doesn't have a negative connotation whereas someone who is a brand snob does have a negative connotation.
I'm not a wine snob but I won't buy wine in a cardboard box. And I prefer a wine bottle to not have a twist off top. It cheapens the experience.
That's why I buy the boxed wine and pour it into nice bottles.
Also, I take the plastic wine bag out of the box, put it under my arm, poke a hole in it and spray it at people.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 31, 2015, 12:46:37 AM
Dealer experience was one reason why Lexus did so well from the get go. There is a difference in service at premium dealers vs the more mainstream marques. It matters for the people buying these types of cars.
+1
That's also why Hyundai offers crazy service on the Genesis (picking up the car, dropping it back off, etc) to try to differentiate themselves from their mainstream lineup.
Quote from: veeman on October 31, 2015, 08:43:41 AM
:hesaid:
Also, in Wimmer's words, history/heritage means something and you can't separate that sentiment from badge snobbery. It's just that someone who appreciates history/heritage doesn't have a negative connotation whereas someone who is a brand snob does have a negative connotation.
I'm not a wine snob but I won't buy wine in a cardboard box. And I prefer a wine bottle to not have a twist off top. It cheapens the experience.
Heh, hate to break it to you, but that is the very definition of wine snobbery. :lol:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 31, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
That's why I buy the boxed wine and pour it into nice bottles.
Also, I take the plastic wine bag out of the box, put it under my arm, poke a hole in it and spray it at people.
I take my boxed wine and pour it into a pint glass. Drink it like beer.
Quote from: thecarnut on October 31, 2015, 10:11:33 AM
+1
That's also why Hyundai offers crazy service on the Genesis (picking up the car, dropping it back off, etc) to try to differentiate themselves from their mainstream lineup.
That's only the eequs. I get treated like shit for having a Genesis
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 31, 2015, 12:46:37 AM
Dealer experience was one reason why Lexus did so well from the get go. There is a difference in service at premium dealers vs the more mainstream marques. It matters for the people buying these types of cars.
I dont have much experience with luxury service operations but I get the feeling mainstream brands have largely caught up. Plus with many luxury marques good dealer service is paramount..... since you will be there a lot :evildude:
I just took my Civic in for an A/C problem and I can't see what more they could do. They gave me a rental and kept me informed of what was going on. Maybe a luxury dealer would have free croissants and leather couches instead of cheap chairs and vending machines.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 31, 2015, 08:45:33 AM
The snob factor is relevant to me, yes. I'd love to say that I only care about the driving or the car or whatever but I'd be lying.
No swipes, but why?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 31, 2015, 11:30:08 AM
I take my boxed wine and pour it into a pint glass. Drink it like beer.
Mah man. 👌
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 31, 2015, 12:24:44 AM
Why? In your region, neither are particularly flashy cars, and if you get your car serviced at the dealer, luxo-marques typically treat you better
Few of my family or peers drive luxury cars. I don't like being the guy that does (even if it's a pseudo-lux Nissan ;) )
In a lot of ways, I was happy to drop the inherent douchebaggery I felt as a 23 year old (I mean, I'm 25 now, but I got the damn thing when I was 20 lol) driving an Audi around in a town where the average income is like $33k. Plenty of people spend far more money on their vehicles than I did (like brand new trucks, for instance), but many people and friends that complimented me on the vehicle talked about it like it was some $60,000 luxomobile. I didn't like that at all...it was a base model A4 for cripe's sake. How could you afford that Audi?!?! I dunno, how did you afford a fucking fully loaded 1/2-ton Chebby?
Now I drive a Tacoma with Hercufenders and don't give many fucks what people think. I like the truck and it's clean. I don't feel like a douche for accepting compliments on it because people's first question isn't "how did you afford that?!" which is a rude question to begin with.
Pretty much the same feeling here. I grew up middle class and I feel very uncomfortable in upper class trappings.
Sometimes I let people think what they want when I say that I drive a Porsche. Other times, it's no, see, it's old, and it's the cheapest one, and it was $5000.
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 01:25:08 PM
Sometimes I let people think what they want when I say that I drive a Porsche. Other times, it's no, see, it's old, and it's the cheapest one, and it was $5000.
Pickin' up girls like
Yeah, I've got a Porsche at home.
You do?! Can I go home with you and see it and then sleep with you?
Well, I mean, the thing's older than you are and cost less than your Civic, so...
Oh...uhhhhhhh, I'm gonna go back to my group of friends now.
Girls love classic cars as long as you aren't a dbag about it.
Do you ever visit the Seattle area anymore? I want to try your car ;)
Heh, I do, but it's been for work or in my other car the last bunch of times.
Well, give me a holler either way..
(http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/61363938.jpg)
Quote from: Laconian on October 31, 2015, 03:19:00 PM
Well, give me a holler either way..
Word. I haven't been in town for any length of time for while, except when I already had a packed day last August.
Quote from: shp4man on October 30, 2015, 09:33:06 AM
Is the status symbol aspect of vehicle ownership more important than the function or cost/performance ratio to you?
Are the luxury brand vehicles actually worth the added cost? Is a Lexus better than a Toyota? Lincoln better than a Ford? Is a Mercedes really a better vehicle than a Buick? Or even a Dodge?
My feeling is that the luxury brands are taking advantage of peoples need to feel superior in some way. Of course, that's an age old game with the manufacturers. I'm surprised some people can't see through it.
Yes, those cars are better. That's no question. Don't be ridiculous.
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 12:36:35 AM
Yeah, I don't think politeness of the dealer service relationship is really a factor when buying a new car for very many people.
Yeah, it is. I've walked out of dealers when I wasn't treated right, so have my parents, so have many people I know. Not even all luxury dealers. There's a notoriously bad Honda dealer near me and I know a Honda family that goes out of their way to avoid that dealer.
And as far as service (earlier paragraph was referring mostly to sales, I misread your post), it does count. My Mercedes dealer, for example, had a horrible service department that soured me (partially) on the brand (but I've seen other dealers that are much better). Pickup, drop off, politeness, lots of things count. Luxury drivers spend a lot of money and don't want to be treated like they're just customers.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 31, 2015, 02:08:29 AM
Whether or not you call it status, almost everybody cares to some extent about the image the car they drive projects. That doesn't mean necessarily that everybody's a badge snob, but just as one chooses to dress a certain way, one chooses to be seen in a certain kind of car; and most of the time practicality is at best a second thought.
almost every pair of pants serves the same practical purpose; just as nearly every car will serve the same basic purpose. But we don't want just utility; we want something more than to keep our ass covered and we want something more than basic transportation- even if we don't necessarily need it.
This is pretty much spot on. For example, I don't care about the "BMW"ness of my car, but love the "sports car"ness of it. Even with the Volkswagens, they had a particular image as well, and I dug that too, but it wasn't badge snobbery (at least not in the traditional sense).
Quote from: Laconian on October 31, 2015, 12:56:34 PM
Few of my family or peers drive luxury cars. I don't like being the guy that does (even if it's a pseudo-lux Nissan ;) )
That's weirdly image-conscious of you. I never thought of you as being so peer-pressured.
Quote from: Raza on October 31, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
Yeah, it is. I've walked out of dealers when I wasn't treated right, so have my parents, so have many people I know. Not even all luxury dealers. There's a notoriously bad Honda dealer near me and I know a Honda family that goes out of their way to avoid that dealer.
That's quite silly. Car dealers are by and large assholes, whether or not you feel pampered (sorry JWC).
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 04:48:38 PM
That's quite silly. Car dealers are by and large assholes, whether or not you feel pampered (sorry JWC).
It's also a large market. If you choose to be treated like shit, that's on you. Why deal with shitty service when 20 minutes away there's a dealer that treats you better?
And, as Ro pointed out, great service really helped put Lexus on the map. So, clearly, people do care.
Quote from: Raza on October 31, 2015, 05:43:14 PM
It's also a large market. If you choose to be treated like shit, that's on you. Why deal with shitty service when 20 minutes away there's a dealer that treats you better?
And, as Ro pointed out, great service really helped put Lexus on the map. So, clearly, people do care.
Because for many people, better service isn't 20 minutes away. Especially for luxury brands.
And Lexus building a better car than the S-Class for what I'm guessing is like half the money at the time is what put the on the map. Service helped for sure but the product was in the driver's seat.
Quote from: Raza on October 31, 2015, 05:43:14 PM
It's also a large market. If you choose to be treated like shit, that's on you. Why deal with shitty service when 20 minutes away there's a dealer that treats you better?
And, as Ro pointed out, great service really helped put Lexus on the map. So, clearly, people do care.
Around here, particularly with premium brands, you generally have to travel 50+ miles to get to the next nearest dealer.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 31, 2015, 11:56:23 AM
No swipes, but why?
The brand recognition/snob factor is part of the experience. Answering "an M5" when asked say, at a party, what do I drive - does have a nice ring to it. I do enjoy it.
It is not my main reason to own it but it is A reason. I give that recognition as well to others. If someone says "I drive a 911" I'll put on my "impressed, well done" face as well. I don't mind making that person feel a bit better too.
Not a big deal, but it is nice both ways.
Quote from: MX793 on October 31, 2015, 08:00:53 PM
Around here, particularly with premium brands, you generally have to travel 50+ miles to get to the next nearest dealer.
?
Aren't you close to downtown Syracuse? There's any dealer I could ask for (except maybe like Tesla or Lotus or something) within 10-15 minutes of where I live. Even in Binghamton, same deal. The VW dealer was a 10 minute drive away, and right next to it was a Chevy dealer and a BMW dealer.
Quote from: Raza on October 31, 2015, 05:43:14 PM
It's also a large market. If you choose to be treated like shit, that's on you. Why deal with shitty service when 20 minutes away there's a dealer that treats you better?
And, as Ro pointed out, great service really helped put Lexus on the map. So, clearly, people do care.
It's all in whether or not you want your bullshitn candy coated.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 31, 2015, 09:56:14 PM
?
Aren't you close to downtown Syracuse? There's any dealer I could ask for (except maybe like Tesla or Lotus or something) within 10-15 minutes of where I live. Even in Binghamton, same deal. The VW dealer was a 10 minute drive away, and right next to it was a Chevy dealer and a BMW dealer.
I meant if you're not happy with the nearest dealer, it's 50+ miles to the next dealer. There's 1 BMW or Audi or MB dealer in the area. If you buy a Bimmer and find you don't like the service, you're driving an hour or more to the next closest.
Also, oddly, there isn't a Jag dealer locally. Nor a Mini dealer. Nearest for either is over an hour away.
Quote from: Rupert on October 31, 2015, 12:36:35 AM
Yeah, I don't think politeness of the dealer service relationship is really a factor when buying a new car for very many people.
Many people absolutely do care. Service is not just politeness, luxury dealers are generally cleaner, less crowded, more likely to provide a loaner (and it's a nicer one) or if there's a shuttle there's less wait time for it. Some people care about shit like free car washes, free food etc. My BMW dealer has a chef that will make an omelette or eggs to order ... I personally don't really care about 'perks' like that, I just want to drop off my car and get out of there as quickly as possible, but some people apparently do.
Sorry but I'm not at all impressed by bmw or MB.. In Germany they are just another car. Nice trims of course are sweet.
Quote from: Lebowski on November 01, 2015, 07:21:38 AM
Many people absolutely do care. Service is not just politeness, luxury dealers are generally cleaner, less crowded, more likely to provide a loaner (and it's a nicer one) or if there's a shuttle there's less wait time for it. Some people care about shit like free car washes, free food etc. My BMW dealer has a chef that will make an omelette or eggs to order ... I personally don't really care about 'perks' like that, I just want to drop off my car and get out of there as quickly as possible, but some people apparently do.
Omelette chef? Lol. I think most people are like you. If a dealer has its customers sitting around all day in its "executive lounge", the perks are kind of irrelevant- the service sucks. I think mainstream service has come a long way, especially when you compare it to independent shop service. I took the Civic to an independent shop (big mistake, never again) the first time.... I had to walk there and back, they got their completion time wrong and didn't even fix the problem. Compared to the Honda dealer I went to.... they gave me a free loaner, had me in there no longer than an hour total and actually fixed the problem. Last point is key but the rest is good too. I dont know what more a dealership can do that actually matters. Service quality is defined by convenience IMO.
Quote from: MX793 on November 01, 2015, 06:45:42 AM
I meant if you're not happy with the nearest dealer, it's 50+ miles to the next dealer. There's 1 BMW or Audi or MB dealer in the area. If you buy a Bimmer and find you don't like the service, you're driving an hour or more to the next closest.
Also, oddly, there isn't a Jag dealer locally. Nor a Mini dealer. Nearest for either is over an hour away.
That would explain why MINI of Rochester advertises at the mall
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 31, 2015, 06:00:41 PM
Because for many people, better service isn't 20 minutes away. Especially for luxury brands.
And Lexus building a better car than the S-Class for what I'm guessing is like half the money at the time is what put the on the map. Service helped for sure but the product was in the driver's seat.
Quote from: MX793 on October 31, 2015, 08:00:53 PM
Around here, particularly with premium brands, you generally have to travel 50+ miles to get to the next nearest dealer.
Fair point. I did momentarily forget how sparse much of this country is.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 01, 2015, 09:03:34 AM
Omelette chef? Lol. I think most people are like you. If a dealer has its customers sitting around all day in its "executive lounge", the perks are kind of irrelevant- the service sucks. I think mainstream service has come a long way, especially when you compare it to independent shop service. I took the Civic to an independent shop (big mistake, never again) the first time.... I had to walk there and back, they got their completion time wrong and didn't even fix the problem. Compared to the Honda dealer I went to.... they gave me a free loaner, had me in there no longer than an hour total and actually fixed the problem. Last point is key but the rest is good too. I dont know what more a dealership can do that actually matters. Service quality is defined by convenience IMO.
The Audi dealer where I take my car for service here in South Jersey is a bit on the cheap side in my experience. They are part of a big auto mall though, so I think that is why.
The nice thing is they do always give me a loaner, which is the important thing for me. At least around these parts, most mainstream dealer do NOT give out loaners. Getting one from a Honda dealer would be rare IMHO.
When I had an Audi while living in Montreal the dealer I went to was more like what Lebowski described. Everything felt "upscale" and they had free ford/etc... That kind of stuff is nice enough but not something I would likely make a purchase decision on.
It was a free rental from a nearby Enterprise (VW Golf). I will bet it depends on the level of service you are getting too.
I've never liked any of the status or stereotypes that any of my cars portrayed, either positive or negative.
I've joked with friends that if I could own a ferrari that to everyone else just looked like a yugo I'd be fine with it.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 02, 2015, 08:47:11 AM
The Audi dealer where I take my car for service here in South Jersey is a bit on the cheap side in my experience. They are part of a big auto mall though, so I think that is why.
The nice thing is they do always give me a loaner, which is the important thing for me. At least around these parts, most mainstream dealer do NOT give out loaners. Getting one from a Honda dealer would be rare IMHO.
When I had an Audi while living in Montreal the dealer I went to was more like what Lebowski described. Everything felt "upscale" and they had free ford/etc... That kind of stuff is nice enough but not something I would likely make a purchase decision on.
I dunno, free Fords seems like a pretty nice perk.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 31, 2015, 02:08:29 AM
Whether or not you call it status, almost everybody cares to some extent about the image the car they drive projects. That doesn't mean necessarily that everybody's a badge snob, but just as one chooses to dress a certain way, one chooses to be seen in a certain kind of car; and most of the time practicality is at best a second thought.
almost every pair of pants serves the same practical purpose; just as nearly every car will serve the same basic purpose. But we don't want just utility; we want something more than to keep our ass covered and we want something more than basic transportation- even if we don't necessarily need it.
Nice car is akin to nice clothes.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 02, 2015, 07:19:12 PM
I've never liked any of the status or stereotypes that any of my cars portrayed, either positive or negative.
I've joked with friends that if I could own a ferrari that to everyone else just looked like a yugo I'd be fine with it.
I think a Yugo is pretty cool
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2015, 07:57:37 PM
Nice car is akin to nice clothes.
Indeed, neither really means anything in the grand scheme of things, and people spend way too much money on both a lot of the time.
Quote from: Rupert on November 02, 2015, 07:26:26 PM
I dunno, free Fords seems like a pretty nice perk.
:lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on November 02, 2015, 07:57:37 PM
Nice car is akin to nice clothes.
Absolutely. Rationality, more often than not, doesn't govern our buying decisions. What we want vs what we need is what keeps the economy going.
I think as you more comfortable in your skin, your need to be seen in luxury/near-luxury brands, goes down.
I always think of the Toyota Avalon as a rational choice for those wanting a large luxury sedan, but they're a rare sight compared with Lexii.
I like to think I don't care what people think of my cars. But the other day, one of my employees thought my Genesis was an Audi. Just didn't sit right with me that my employees were thinking I was driving some expensive Audi and not my bargain Korean car.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 03, 2015, 05:39:29 AM
Indeed, neither really means anything in the grand scheme of things, and people spend way too much money on both a lot of the time.
It does mean something in as much it has been scientifically proven time and again that people get treated differently all the time based on how they look and what they wear.
I am a big fan of Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow". There is a great chapter in there about "The Halo Effect".
I firmly believe that in a lot of situations I do get better outcomes if people perceive me in a certain way. And all this "status" symbols come into play, like it or not. Not every time, but more than enough to make it worth it.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2015, 11:29:32 AM
It does mean something in as much it has been scientifically proven time and again that people get treated differently all the time based on how they look and what they wear.
I am a big fan of Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow". There is a great chapter in there about "The Halo Effect".
I firmly believe that in a lot of situations I do get better outcomes if people perceive me in a certain way. And all this "status" symbols come into play, like it or not. Not every time, but more than enough to make it worth it.
I don't disagree that appearance has an effect on treatment by society, and people should take care and pride in their appearance. But I don't think an American Airlines attendant can tell the difference between a Canali sport coat and a well tailored JC Penney special if you know what I'm saying. People assign way too much value to appearances, even when factoring how they affect how they affect one's treatment. IMO for whatever it's worth I don't really want people to treat me nicely because they like my stuff so maybe I am just coming at it from too far in that direction.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2015, 11:29:32 AM
It does mean something in as much it has been scientifically proven time and again that people get treated differently all the time based on how they look and what they wear.
I am a big fan of Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow". There is a great chapter in there about "The Halo Effect".
I firmly believe that in a lot of situations I do get better outcomes if people perceive me in a certain way. And all this "status" symbols come into play, like it or not. Not every time, but more than enough to make it worth it.
This is reality.
Pride in appearance tracks with self-esteem and mental health but of course it has limits. Also, more expensive clothes are higher quality - comfort, durability and fit, esp. shoes.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 03, 2015, 11:48:14 AM
IMO for whatever it's worth I don't really want people to treat me nicely because they like my stuff so maybe I am just coming at it from too far in that direction.
It would be a better world, but it ain't.
My thinking today is that every little edge helps in business, so why not take advantage of the effect all these symbols have on a lot of people? I've come around to thinking this way in the past 3-4 years only. I used to wear a ponytail and (thought that I did) not care much about this stuff.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 03, 2015, 12:15:50 PM
This is reality.
Pride in appearance tracks with self-esteem and mental health but of course it has limits. Also, more expensive clothes are higher quality - comfort, durability and fit, esp. shoes.
I noticeably started improving my appearance a little after my divorce, so my experience is in line with what you say here.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on November 03, 2015, 12:20:21 PM
I noticeably started improving my appearance a little after my divorce, so my experience is in line with what you say here.
I used to be cheap when it came to clothes. I now spend a fair amount on clothes - not really expensive like $1,000 shoes or $5,000 jacket but still pretty nice. I don't have a ton of fancier stuff as the Seattle area is super casual. I do have a fair amount of nice jeans, shirts and shoes though.
I am still cheap when it comes to clothes, but I am super particular about fit. I size things right, tailor things as needed and now have been keeping my weight in check. That goes way further than expensive stuff... I can shut the city down in a dingy Hanes tee, some $50 Uniqlo jeans and some laceless Chucks :praise:
I used to super-cheap-out on clothes, but have come to buy a few things I like now and again. Unfortunately I wear regular clothes so little (work uniforms are most of my waking hours mon-fri) I have a hard time buying anything but comfy housewear for myself...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 03, 2015, 12:54:07 PM
I am still cheap when it comes to clothes, but I am super particular about fit. I size things right, tailor things as needed and now have been keeping my weight in check. That goes way further than expensive stuff... I can shut the city down in a dingy Hanes tee, some $50 Uniqlo jeans and some laceless Chucks :praise:
But it's still about appearances, and you probably wouldn't wear those when it came time to go on a business interview.
And to someone else's point, you may not care about status with cars, but I'll bet there is something you care about status in, even if it's within your peer group and wear clothes that fit them, or cut your hair in a way that you think looks good, or bathe and wear deodorant in order to appear non-slobbish.
The saying "clothes makes the man" works in social groups and between social groups, and with clothes, homes, jobs, cars, etc. Anyone who claims to not care about that at least to some level is at least lying to themselves.
That being said, yes, I do think about appearances and perceptions when choosing a car or clothes or home improvements, or haircuts, or cologne... With a car it may not be the top priority, but it is definitely a factor and partly why my money was spent on the E38 instead of a boring Camry.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 09, 2015, 02:07:39 PM
But it's still about appearances, and you probably wouldn't wear those when it came time to go on a business interview.
And to someone else's point, you may not care about status with cars, but I'll bet there is something you care about status in, even if it's within your peer group and wear clothes that fit them, or cut your hair in a way that you think looks good, or bathe and wear deodorant in order to appear non-slobbish.
The saying "clothes makes the man" works in social groups and between social groups, and with clothes, homes, jobs, cars, etc. Anyone who claims to not care about that at least to some level is at least lying to themselves.
That being said, yes, I do think about appearances and perceptions when choosing a car or clothes or home improvements, or haircuts, or cologne... With a car it may not be the top priority, but it is definitely a factor and partly why my money was spent on the E38 instead of a boring Camry.
I can't change cars like I change clothes though so that's not really a good analogy. I'm not saying appearance doesn't matter to me- that's a huge part of why I go to the gym, for example. I just find the active pursuit of status, in general but particularly through materialism, to be a little silly and self destructive.... not to mention, not really meaningful in our current era of easy credit. A last gen S550 can be had for $20K and financed for 8 yrs. Depending on where you are and how little you care about school districts you can live in a McMansion in a major city for not a lot of money. Etc. A lot of stuff related to status can be quasi faked or leveraged to the hilt, which is by design. I find it all to be kind of a waste of time.
But who knows, maybe in some way status is important to me. IDK. I definitely like to associate with a certain caliber of people in real life who are in about the same socioeconomic realm and mindset as me.... not so much cause of our stuff but just because I find those kinds of folks easier to relate to.
And a ~14 y/o Bimmer is only a status item to other car geeks (no swipes).
OK, I can think of two recent instances of where I had "stuff" that impressed somebody. I have a pair of boots.... Wolverine 1000 Miles.... they look like shit, kind of. A friend of mine called them "World War II boots" :lol: But they are solid and I like them. I was out at a bar and someone asked me about them. They seemed really impressed. Other time, I just got a new camera I was talking to a friend about and he was like "whoa when'd you get that????" But I got it cause I really wanted the camera.
Lot of times I'm embarrased about big status stuff. Our house is a little silly, but I love living in it. And like I said I really felt like a douchebag sometimes in the Z, but it looked so sexy and drove nicely. I enjoyed it. I think that's kind of my point. There has to be something about "stuff" besides it impressing other people IMO otherwise it might be a problem.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2015, 02:43:51 PM
And a ~14 y/o Bimmer is only a status item to other car geeks (no swipes).
Oh, I agree. I often say that when people think I bought a BMW for status. Like a 150k mile, 15 year old BMW is a status symbol to anyone but guys who know what it actually is (and even then, only a minor one). But then again, a lot of people just see the badge and think it's expensive and a status symbol anyhow. Can't win.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2015, 02:43:51 PM
I can't change cars like I change clothes though so that's not really a good analogy.
It just means you end up thinking longer and harder about the image you want to portray when driving, as it's harder to change it once you've made the decision. Even if you're buying the car primarily for your use and enjoyment, how that car is perceived is still going to be a factor, positively or negatively in your decision to own it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2015, 02:43:51 PM
And a ~14 y/o Bimmer is only a status item to other car geeks (no swipes).
It's funny -- there seem to be two attitudes that non-car-people people take, and I know people personally who are in both camps. Some treat all luxury cars the same regardless of age, and some treat all old cars the same regardless of luxury. Both seem to be surprised that anyone else feels differently.
About the cars/clothes analogy, I think it does work fairly well. Both cars and clothes convey an image about a person -- and there's no objective measure of what clothes or cars are simply "better." There are just different styles, and just as some people would feel wrong in certain types of expensive clothes, they'd feel wrong in certain types of expensive cars. A Camry doesn't project an image of "I don't care about life" so much as "I don't care about cars," or even more intentionally as "I am someone who doesn't buy flashy things."
Quote from: shp4man on October 30, 2015, 09:33:06 AM
Is the status symbol aspect of vehicle ownership more important than the function or cost/performance ratio to you?
Are the luxury brand vehicles actually worth the added cost? Is a Lexus better than a Toyota? Lincoln better than a Ford? Is a Mercedes really a better vehicle than a Buick? Or even a Dodge?
My feeling is that the luxury brands are taking advantage of peoples need to feel superior in some way. Of course, that's an age old game with the manufacturers. I'm surprised some people can't see through it.
I couldn't care less about the status of owning and driving certain vehicles. I've always bought and driven what I like not what I think makes me look good.
compare that to a friend who agonized for months over what color Z3 to buy; he had a deposit in before the official release. His question to the rest of us was "what color do you think I'd look best in?" Our reply was "you are buying a car not a suit, buy what you like."
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:06:41 PM
His question to the rest of us was "what color do you think I'd look best in?" Our reply was "you are buying a car not a suit, buy what you like."
Fuck, dude sounds MISERABLE :lol:
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 31, 2015, 12:46:37 AM
Dealer experience was one reason why Lexus did so well from the get go. There is a difference in service at premium dealers vs the more mainstream marques. It matters for the people buying these types of cars.
I love those license plate frames that proclaim for example "Lexus Priority Customer". Do people really think the rest of us give a shit that they probably overpaid for their vehicle?
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 31, 2015, 09:21:19 PM
The brand recognition/snob factor is part of the experience. Answering "an M5" when asked say, at a party, what do I drive - does have a nice ring to it. I do enjoy it.
Do you employ a self satisfied smirk when you say it? :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2015, 12:08:35 PM
Fuck, dude sounds MISERABLE :lol:
Actually a hell of a nice guy, just Chinese and very much into how he is perceived by others.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 09, 2015, 02:59:03 PM
It just means you end up thinking longer and harder about the image you want to portray when driving, as it's harder to change it once you've made the decision. Even if you're buying the car primarily for your use and enjoyment, how that car is perceived is still going to be a factor, positively or negatively in your decision to own it.
I don't agree with that at all. I personally couldn't care less what others think of what I buy and drive.
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:13:10 PM
Do you employ a self satisfied smirk when you say it? :lol:
Can´t help it. Of course!
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:14:17 PM
Actually a hell of a nice guy, just Chinese and very much into how he is perceived by others.
A lot of the insecure Chinese folks I know care about how their parents perceive how they are perceived by others. It's like this neverending cycle of cross-generation nagging.
It goes both ways with me. I like when people compliment my cars (I mean, who doesn't?), but I'm sure that I also get judged negatively by some people. I don't think much about it when I'm shopping though. I pretty much get what I want.
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
I love those license plate frames that proclaim for example "Lexus Priority Customer". Do people really think the rest of us give a shit that they probably overpaid for their vehicle?
Never seen that before
Quote from: Laconian on November 10, 2015, 12:22:51 PM
A lot of the insecure Chinese folks I know care about how their parents perceive how they are perceived by others. It's like this neverending cycle of cross-generation nagging.
Wow that is inception level insecurity. That has to suck
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:16:08 PM
I don't agree with that at all. I personally couldn't care less what others think of what I buy and drive.
I'll bet you won't buy certain cars or modify certain ways due to negative stereotypes. And I'll bet you care how you look/dress/or care how your hair is cut. And I'd bet you're damn well aware of other people's perceptions of you if you go out on a date or go on a business interview.
Quote from: shp4man on October 30, 2015, 09:33:06 AM
Is the status symbol aspect of vehicle ownership more important than the function or cost/performance ratio to you?
Nope.
QuoteAre the luxury brand vehicles actually worth the added cost?
To me, no.
QuoteIs a Lexus better than a Toyota? Lincoln better than a Ford? Is a Mercedes really a better vehicle than a Buick? Or even a Dodge?
Yeah, they are objectively better in some respects. They tend to be quieter, tend to have more power, tend to have more luxury doodads. I don't really care about the luxury doodads and in the other respects it's just not worth the extra cost to me.
I have become an unthusiast. I just don't care.
(http://media3.giphy.com/media/hYJMvSpmgkt2M/giphy.gif)
Quote from: ChrisV on November 10, 2015, 02:37:40 PM
I'll bet you won't buy certain cars or modify certain ways due to negative stereotypes.
If I act in that way it's because
I have no interest in doing it to suit myself, not because I'm concerned about what others might think.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 10, 2015, 02:37:40 PM
And I'd bet you're damn well aware of other people's perceptions of you if you go out on a date or go on a business interview.
I don't date now and when I did I worried about only what one other person felt. It would be pretty shallow to go on a date and worry what the guy at the next table thinks. Please tell me that's not something that concerns you. Of course one is concerned about the interviewer's perceptions in a business interview setting. Again, that has zip to do with what one drives.
Quote from: ChrisV on November 10, 2015, 02:37:40 PM
And I'll bet you care how you look/dress/or care how your hair is cut.
Which matters not at all when talking about what one drives.
My car pleases me both when some people seem to be delighted by it and when other people are disgusted by it.
A person I work with drives a relatively new Evoque, and asked me the other day why I drive "that beaten up old wagon." I answered because I like it, and because it's paid for. She rolled her eyes.
I found that as amusing as any other reaction.
Wow, she sounds annoying.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2015, 03:39:58 PM
My car pleases me both when some people seem to be delighted by it and when other people are disgusted by it.
A person I work with drives a relatively new Evoque, and asked me the other day why I drive "that beaten up old wagon." I answered because I like it, and because it's paid for. She rolled her eyes.
I found that as amusing as any other reaction.
Sounds like she needs some sensitivity training. :lol:
This lady's Evoque... perhaps it would look better with faux wood siding.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2015, 03:39:58 PM
My car pleases me both when some people seem to be delighted by it and when other people are disgusted by it.
A person I work with drives a relatively new Evoque, and asked me the other day why I drive "that beaten up old wagon." I answered because I like it, and because it's paid for. She rolled her eyes.
I found that as amusing as any other reaction.
Wow what a biggidy bitch
Like I said, I just found it amusing. I make substantially more than she does, and I bet she is wondering how I can be so bad with money as to have to drive an old beaten up car. That's cool; think what you want.
Most of the time, people think it's cool, or tell me about the one they had "just like it"mthey were kids and used to flip off truckers from the back seat. I like that as well.
I don't know if that counts as "status" in the typical sense, but it is one way where other people's opinion has an effect on my satisfaction with that particular car.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 10, 2015, 04:08:43 PM
This lady's Evoque... perhaps it would look better with faux wood siding.
I have ordered a replacement wood kit. I will have some extra left over...
When are you going to drop in a 351-based 427 crate engine?
Quote from: MX793 on November 10, 2015, 05:55:47 PM
When are you going to drop in a 351-based 427 crate engine?
Ermm... or a GT350 motor. Do they sell those, yet?
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 10, 2015, 05:59:08 PM
Ermm... or a GT350 motor. Do they sell those, yet?
Probably a harder conversion than swapping one member of the Windsor motor family for another.
Quote from: MX793 on November 10, 2015, 06:08:06 PM
Probably a harder conversion than swapping one member of the Windsor motor family for another.
Yeah, but a flat plane V8 wagon would be so practical.
Quote from: 93JC on November 10, 2015, 02:56:55 PM
They tend to be quieter, tend to have more power, tend to have more luxury doodads.
Fun fact: the difference between a Lexus V8 block and a Toyota truck V8 block is the tolerances allowed in the manufacturing process (at least as of 2007).
Source: I've seen the spec drawings.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2015, 03:39:58 PM
My car pleases me both when some people seem to be delighted by it and when other people are disgusted by it.
A person I work with drives a relatively new Evoque, and asked me the other day why I drive "that beaten up old wagon." I answered because I like it, and because it's paid for. She rolled her eyes.
I found that as amusing as any other reaction.
I don't actually know what you drive.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 10, 2015, 07:50:21 PM
Fun fact: the difference between a Lexus V8 block and a Toyota truck V8 block is the tolerances allowed in the manufacturing process (at least as of 2007).
Source: I've seen the spec drawings.
I don't actually know what you drive.
Sorry.
It's a Grand Marquis Colony Park wagon.
Quote from: MX793 on November 10, 2015, 05:55:47 PM
When are you going to drop in a 351-based 427 crate engine?
When this one blows up and I'm done making it pretty.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2015, 07:56:14 PM
Sorry.
It's a Grand Marquis Colony Park wagon.
Haha sweet.
Car as a status symbol is why millennials are buying less cars. It's not that they don't like cars or driving as much, they just want their car purchase to be a luxury purchase of sorts so they are waiting longer.
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:16:08 PM
I don't agree with that at all. I personally couldn't care less what others think of what I buy and drive.
Well, you are working pretty hard to convince us that you're the kind of guy who doesn't care what others think of what you buy and drive...
:lol:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 10, 2015, 07:50:21 PM
Fun fact: the difference between a Lexus V8 block and a Toyota truck V8 block is the tolerances allowed in the manufacturing process (at least as of 2007).
Source: I've seen the spec drawings.
Do you have a source for those drawings? I have a very hard time believing that is true, for a number of reasons.
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:16:08 PM
I don't agree with that at all. I personally couldn't care less what others think of what I buy and drive.
I mean this to be a compliment, so please take it that way. There is a certain I-don't-give-a-fuckness that comes with being a man of your age. I mean, you're clearly a successful fellow, you've done a lot, and you've earned that right to not give a fuck. Maybe you didn't when you were younger either, I don't know, but at your stage in life, you've certainly mastered it by now.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 10, 2015, 01:14:29 PM
It goes both ways with me. I like when people compliment my cars (I mean, who doesn't?), but I'm sure that I also get judged negatively by some people. I don't think much about it when I'm shopping though. I pretty much get what I want.
Definitely. I love getting compliments on the car. They totally make my day. But I also saw the dark side of luxury marque sports car ownership with all the vandalism I faced this summer.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 10, 2015, 10:50:30 PM
Do you have a source for those drawings? I have a very hard time believing that is true, for a number of reasons.
I saw them during an internship at Toyota Manufacturing when I was still in school, so I don't still have copies. But I actually got spec drawings from a Japanese engine plant and had to verify the measurements when compared to the American engine plant. The Japanese plant made Lexus engines, our plant made Tundra/Tacoma/4Runner engines. The only difference was that the Japanese engines had stricter tolerances.
This is just the machining of the block though. I'm sure other parts of the engine were different in other ways.
Quote from: Raza on November 10, 2015, 11:36:16 PM
Definitely. I love getting compliments on the car. They totally make my day. But I also saw the dark side of luxury marque sports car ownership with all the vandalism I faced this summer.
What happened?
People messed with his car parked on the street.
Quote from: Rupert on November 10, 2015, 10:18:46 PM
Well, you are working pretty hard to convince us that you're the kind of guy who doesn't care what others think of what you buy and drive...
:lol:
Yeah, like the dozen or so regular carspin posters I offered my opinion and responded when challenged about it. Real hard? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Raza on November 10, 2015, 11:32:37 PM
I mean this to be a compliment, so please take it that way. There is a certain I-don't-give-a-fuckness that comes with being a man of your age. I mean, you're clearly a successful fellow, you've done a lot, and you've earned that right to not give a fuck. Maybe you didn't when you were younger either, I don't know, but at your stage in life, you've certainly mastered it by now.
Pretty much spot on, IMO. What a lot of people don't seem to understand is the difference between doing something to please yourself and doing something to impress others.
For example, I'm disassembling the Jaguar and cleaning, repainting and replating what doesn't get replaced with new. Not to impress others or hoping they think it's cool, but because I want to do it and enjoy doing it. If others are impressed, OK; if not, OK.
Quote from: CLKid on November 10, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
I love those license plate frames that proclaim for example "Lexus Priority Customer". Do people really think the rest of us give a shit that they probably overpaid for their vehicle?
I don't understand why anybody leaves any extraneous (dealership) badging or plate frames on their vehicles. Bro, you just gave them like $30,000...you don't need to be a walking (driving?) billboard for them. Most dealership badges have pretty shitty longevity to them as well, though they've gotten better the last few years.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 11, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
I don't understand why anybody leaves any extraneous (dealership) badging or plate frames on their vehicles. Bro, you just gave them like $30,000...you don't need to be a walking (driving?) billboard for them. Most dealership badges have pretty shitty longevity to them as well, though they've gotten better the last few years.
At least they're just glued on now; lots of classic cars were defaced with dealership badges that required holes to be punched in the sheet metal.
Some of the advantages of driving an old heap? No worries about parking lot dings and "Go ahead and hit me, you idiot, it'll hurt you way more than it will me".
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 11, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
I don't understand why anybody leaves any extraneous (dealership) badging or plate frames on their vehicles. Bro, you just gave them like $30,000...you don't need to be a walking (driving?) billboard for them. Most dealership badges have pretty shitty longevity to them as well, though they've gotten better the last few years.
I have a badge on my car and the front plate is an ad for the dealer. Thanks for reminding me.....
Quote from: CLKid on November 11, 2015, 08:06:22 AM
Yeah, like the dozen or so regular carspin posters I offered my opinion and responded when challenged about it. Real hard? :rolleyes:
Pretty hard. ;)
Quote from: Lebowski on November 11, 2015, 07:25:48 AM
What happened?
Someone smashed my windshield with a massive rock and left it on my hood, and my door panel was kicked in. I still haven't had a chance to get it fixed (of course the windshield was fixed, but the hood hasn't been yet).
Still makes me mad to hear about that.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 11, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
I don't understand why anybody leaves any extraneous (dealership) badging or plate frames on their vehicles. Bro, you just gave them like $30,000...you don't need to be a walking (driving?) billboard for them. Most dealership badges have pretty shitty longevity to them as well, though they've gotten better the last few years.
It wasn't always about letting others know you had overpaid for a vehicle. Badges and plates used to tells us in service if you bought your car from us. Cars with intact dealership frames, plates, and badges, got into service first. At one dealership, leaving the badge on was worth a 10-15% discount on service.
At the Caddy dealership I used to work at, the dealership installed front plates with their logo and name, Brown & Wood. A veteran salesman at the dealership, first name Wade, had custom plates made that imitated the dealership plate, but said, Brown & Wade. If you left his plate on your car, he'd personally pick it up and deliver it to the service department. The dealership's owners were often seen removing Wade's custom plates and replacing it with their original plate. About ten minutes later, you'd see Wade retrieve his plate from the trash, and reinstall it. It was an ongoing battle, one which the owners finally gave up on and surrendered. I can't even guess how many times I've seen a car or truck with "Brown & Wade" on the front drive by on the local news when there was a on-the-spot report.
I will leave the dealer badges on when they pay me a monthly advertising fee.
On my Beetle which I bought on the internet, I called the dealer and asked them to remove any sticker or badge on the car which hadn't come with the car from the factory. I said I wanted it to look "clean". On the certified Infiniti I have, I've kept the dealer badge on the rear of the car. The dealer gave me free oil changes for a year so I thought having the badge on might expedite service but I have no idea if it actually does. This particular badge I don't mind so much for reasons I can't really explain so I might just leave it on anyways after the year.
Quote from: JWC on November 11, 2015, 04:28:27 PM
It wasn't always about letting others know you had overpaid for a vehicle. Badges and plates used to tells us in service if you bought your car from us. Cars with intact dealership frames, plates, and badges, got into service first. At one dealership, leaving the badge on was worth a 10-15% discount on service.
That sounds like a place I would avoid like the plague. :nutty:
Quote from: Raza on November 11, 2015, 01:48:12 PM
Someone smashed my windshield with a massive rock and left it on my hood, and my door panel was kicked in. I still haven't had a chance to get it fixed (of course the windshield was fixed, but the hood hasn't been yet).
That sucks man, I don't remember hearing about that. Was the door kick in a separate event?
It's anyone's guess what incites people to do these kind of trashy things. It could be that it was a nice car, but who knows. Could be a million other things, from retaliation for some perceived slight or road rage incident (i.e. thought you cut him off in traffic or something, parked in "his" parking spot etc.) I've found the only real protection from this garbage is to park in a secure private garage, which isn't always an option for everyone.
Quote from: Lebowski on November 12, 2015, 07:26:53 AM
That sucks man, I don't remember hearing about that. Was the door kick in a separate event?
It's anyone's guess what incites people to do these kind of trashy things. It could be that it was a nice car, but who knows. Could be a million other things, from retaliation for some perceived slight or road rage incident (i.e. thought you cut him off in traffic or something, parked in "his" parking spot etc.) I've found the only real protection from this garbage is to park in a secure private garage, which isn't always an option for everyone.
Yeah, it was two separate incidents, both while parked overnight across the street from my house.
It's got to be someone who lives over there (the "old" neighborhood, built in the 60s or 70s, lower income families), because it only happens when I park on that side of the street--and every time I park on that side of the street. Nothing happens when I park on my side. If my side is full, now I just go around the back of the house and park behind the garage. Things can get a little tight if my roommate and I are both parked back there, but that's rare now that he spends 13 out of 14 nights at his girlfriend's, and the neighbors are all aware of what's been happening to my car, and we sent them an email, so they know what's up (garages open to a common "driveway" that goes behind all the houses on our block).
I am very careful about how I drive near my house for that reason--the car is very recognizable. I think it's someone there drawing a line that the "rich" people on my side of the street aren't allowed over there. Don't know why my car has been singled out and the other BMWs and Benzes haven't been (I was parked next to a TT roadster when the windshield thing happened), but again, I think that comes down to my car being the most recognizable.
That's weird indeed. But yeah, marking territory sounds like the most likely explanation.
Don't fix the hood if it's just cosmetic. Wait till you eventually move out and get better security parking. Otherwise you're going to be throwing your money away as a dent free luxury car is just asking to be dented if you street park in Philadelphia.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 12, 2015, 06:16:43 AM
That sounds like a place I would avoid like the plague. :nutty:
It's true at every dealership I've worked....and it isn't something customers actually know.
We were in the middle of an oil change at the Chrysler dealership and had to push the car off the rack (literally in the middle of it) to make room for a car bought at the dealership.
At the Caddy place, the owner used to walk down the line with the service manager to ask why any cars not bought at the dealership were on the lifts---and why his customers were not.
At the Ford place the owner took us in the office and said: My cars come first, then cars bought here---if they weren't bought here, I don't give a shit when you work on them.
Quote from: veeman on November 12, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
Don't fix the hood if it's just cosmetic. Wait till you eventually move out and get better security parking. Otherwise you're going to be throwing your money away as a dent free luxury car is just asking to be dented if you street park in Philadelphia.
I'd rather have a fixed car and keep getting it fixed. My car has been hit (by my neighbor's mom), but other than that and the vandalism, it's been untouched parking on the street.
I want it fixed because fuck those people who vandalized it.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 09:57:42 AM
It's true at every dealership I've worked....and it isn't something customers actually know.
We were in the middle of an oil change at the Chrysler dealership and had to push the car off the rack (literally in the middle of it) to make room for a car bought at the dealership.
At the Caddy place, the owner used to walk down the line with the service manager to ask why any cars not bought at the dealership were on the lifts---and why his customers were not.
At the Ford place the owner took us in the office and said: My cars come first, then cars bought here---if they weren't bought here, I don't give a shit when you work on them.
This is retarded. Even if the thinking is to reward people who bought the cars there, wouldn't a dealer want to grow his base, getting customers who didn't buy their cars there to consider it next time with good service?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 12, 2015, 11:45:50 AM
This is retarded. Even if the thinking is to reward people who bought the cars there, wouldn't a dealer want to grow his base, getting customers who didn't buy their cars there to consider it next time with good service?
It's not like they TELL the non-"bought there" people they are getting second-class service....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on November 12, 2015, 11:50:28 AM
It's not like they TELL the non-"bought there" people they are getting second-class service....
Personally I've gotten both crappy and decent service at dealerships where I bought the car being serviced and decent service and crappy service at dealerships where I didn't buy the car.
It's a mixed bag, IMO.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 09:57:42 AM
It's true at every dealership I've worked....and it isn't something customers actually know.
We were in the middle of an oil change at the Chrysler dealership and had to push the car off the rack (literally in the middle of it) to make room for a car bought at the dealership.
At the Caddy place, the owner used to walk down the line with the service manager to ask why any cars not bought at the dealership were on the lifts---and why his customers were not.
At the Ford place the owner took us in the office and said: My cars come first, then cars bought here---if they weren't bought here, I don't give a shit when you work on them.
If you say so. When I go to the dealer I call ahead an have an appointment (and almost always get a loaner anyway). Maybe you are right they are secretly taking longer on my car (while I am off driving around in their loaner). :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 12, 2015, 12:53:09 PM
If you say so. When I go to the dealer I call ahead an have an appointment (and almost always get a loaner anyway). Maybe you are right they are secretly taking longer on my car (while I am off driving around in their loaner). :lol:
They get reimbursed for the "loaner" and then they get a big discount on it from the manufacturer and sell it...so yeah, they make money there too.
Quote from: CLKid on November 12, 2015, 12:14:43 PM
Personally I've gotten both crappy and decent service at dealerships where I bought the car being serviced and decent service and crappy service at dealerships where I didn't buy the car.
It's a mixed bag, IMO.
Things that affect a customer's experience: If the customer has an attitude, or had one in the past. Or if it is a customer who only gets warranty work and uses someone else to service the vehicle. Those records are just a few keystrokes away and SDs will tell you to put "good" customer before warranty only.
Dealerships managers are very particular about the new and used car customers. It took years for me to finally realize I was let go from a Honda dealer because I bought a Samurai (when they were new and difficult to get) instead of buying a car from my dealership. My dealership didn't carry them, couldn't have gotten one, but that was beside the point. They provided for me by giving me a job, I was expected to return the favor. At the Pontiac dealership, a tech was fired because his wife, with her money, bought a new VW Jetta. The owner asked who belonged to the new Jetta. The tech said his wife had bought it and he was going to service it. The owner said: "You like giving Pecheles your money so much, pack your shit and go work for him". He wasn't even allowed to finish the car he was working on.
Raza probably remembers me being stressed out when I was at the dealership. Why do you guys think I've looked everywhere
but a dealership for a job. Yes, they pay really well, but you have to sell your soul.
I work at a Ford store and drive a Dodge. But I did pick it off the back fence before they wholesaled it.
All this just enforces my belief that the dealership system as it is today is outdated and should be done away with.
Quote from: shp4man on November 12, 2015, 01:58:24 PM
I work at a Ford store and drive a Dodge. But I did pick it off the back fence before they wholesaled it.
Yep. My VW and my Volvo came from the wholesale line.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 12, 2015, 02:04:40 PM
All this just enforces my belief that the dealership system as it is today is outdated and should be done away with.
+1. I should be able to order a new car the same way I order a new computer.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 01:06:08 PM
Things that affect a customer's experience: If the customer has an attitude, or had one in the past. Or if it is a customer who only gets warranty work and uses someone else to service the vehicle. Those records are just a few keystrokes away and SDs will tell you to put "good" customer before warranty only.
Dealerships managers are very particular about the new and used car customers. It took years for me to finally realize I was let go from a Honda dealer because I bought a Samurai (when they were new and difficult to get) instead of buying a car from my dealership. My dealership didn't carry them, couldn't have gotten one, but that was beside the point. They provided for me by giving me a job, I was expected to return the favor. At the Pontiac dealership, a tech was fired because his wife, with her money, bought a new VW Jetta. The owner asked who belonged to the new Jetta. The tech said his wife had bought it and he was going to service it. The owner said: "You like giving Pecheles your money so much, pack your shit and go work for him". He wasn't even allowed to finish the car he was working on.
Raza probably remembers me being stressed out when I was at the dealership. Why do you guys think I've looked everywhere but a dealership for a job. Yes, they pay really well, but you have to sell your soul.
To some extent this happens everywhere, if you're a regular, big, it profitable customer you get better service. It's true of restaurants/bars/coffee shops, airlines (and no it's not sport jacket dependent ;)), to some extent hotels etc. I don't really have a problem with it and it's good business to give top notch service to your best customers.
Firing an employee over it is going too far IMO. It would be one thing if you went to a competing dealer of the same make to save 500 bucks, but for a completely non competing product like a samurai or a spouse's car, that's absurd.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 01:06:08 PM
Things that affect a customer's experience: If the customer has an attitude, or had one in the past. Or if it is a customer who only gets warranty work and uses someone else to service the vehicle. Those records are just a few keystrokes away and SDs will tell you to put "good" customer before warranty only.
Dealerships managers are very particular about the new and used car customers. It took years for me to finally realize I was let go from a Honda dealer because I bought a Samurai (when they were new and difficult to get) instead of buying a car from my dealership. My dealership didn't carry them, couldn't have gotten one, but that was beside the point. They provided for me by giving me a job, I was expected to return the favor. At the Pontiac dealership, a tech was fired because his wife, with her money, bought a new VW Jetta. The owner asked who belonged to the new Jetta. The tech said his wife had bought it and he was going to service it. The owner said: "You like giving Pecheles your money so much, pack your shit and go work for him". He wasn't even allowed to finish the car he was working on.
Raza probably remembers me being stressed out when I was at the dealership. Why do you guys think I've looked everywhere but a dealership for a job. Yes, they pay really well, but you have to sell your soul.
In about 1968 I knew a guy who worked at the Chrysler Assembly plant just outside St. Louis. He bolted fenders on pickups. He told me it was really frowned upon to drive a foreign car to work. Domestics were acceptable but foreign cars were likely to get vandalized.
I thought that dealer loyalty crap ended years ago. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it still goes on though. So someone who moves to a new town is crapped on by local dealer because he bought the car somewhere else. Wonderful business model.
Quote from: CLKid on November 12, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
In about 1968 I knew a guy who worked at the Chrysler Assembly plant just outside St. Louis. He bolted fenders on pickups. He told me it was really frowned upon to drive a foreign car to work. Domestics were acceptable but foreign cars were likely to get vandalized.
I thought that dealer loyalty crap ended years ago. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it still goes on though. So someone who moves to a new town is crapped on by local dealer because he bought the car somewhere else. Wonderful business model.
No..someone who is new to the neighborhood is treated as a potential new car buyer. It is when they are proven to be "taking advantage of what we offer our loyal customers" that you get served last. Now, if you are a service customer who comes in and says they bought their car at XYZ, but it is too far to travel for an oil change...you're SOL. If you bought your car from XYZ, but you're dissatisfied with their service department, you may not be first, but you won't be last.
Why do you think we're trained to ask questions? We were supposed to learn your motives for being there; your likes and dislikes; where you worked and who you knew. It is what made me good---I loved learning about people, but it also served the dealership. If the owner asked me about a customer, I pretty much knew their life history.
If we found you worked for a huge employer, you were probably treated a little better than average---because you'd talk about how great we were to your co-workers and they'd come buy a car. Heck, the Pontiac-GMC-Cadillac dealer gave customers fifty bucks for referrals that resulted in a sell.
Quote from: CLKid on November 12, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
In about 1968 I knew a guy who worked at the Chrysler Assembly plant just outside St. Louis. He bolted fenders on pickups. He told me it was really frowned upon to drive a foreign car to work. Domestics were acceptable but foreign cars were likely to get vandalized.
I thought that dealer loyalty crap ended years ago. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it still goes on though. So someone who moves to a new town is crapped on by local dealer because he bought the car somewhere else. Wonderful business model.
No, that has t changed. Most assembly plants have three lots for employees; conforming, non conforming, and foreign. Chrysler is actually the most relaxed about this.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 03:38:46 PM
No..someone who is new to the neighborhood is treated as a potential new car buyer. It is when they are proven to be "taking advantage of what we offer our loyal customers" that you get served last. Now, if you are a service customer who comes in and says they bought their car at XYZ, but it is too far to travel for an oil change...you're SOL. If you bought your car from XYZ, but you're dissatisfied with their service department, you may not be first, but you won't be last.
Why do you think we're trained to ask questions? We were supposed to learn your motives for being there; your likes and dislikes; where you worked and who you knew. It is what made me good---I loved learning about people, but it also served the dealership. If the owner asked me about a customer, I pretty much knew their life history.
If we found you worked for a huge employer, you were probably treated a little better than average---because you'd talk about how great we were to your co-workers and they'd come buy a car. Heck, the Pontiac-GMC-Cadillac dealer gave customers fifty bucks for referrals that resulted in a sell.
Yeah, that system can't end soon enough.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 12, 2015, 11:45:50 AM
This is retarded. Even if the thinking is to reward people who bought the cars there, wouldn't a dealer want to grow his base, getting customers who didn't buy their cars there to consider it next time with good service?
Easier to keep a customer than get a new one.
Quote from: JWC on November 12, 2015, 12:56:51 PM
They get reimbursed for the "loaner" and then they get a big discount on it from the manufacturer and sell it...so yeah, they make money there too.
Yeah, I know. Its SOP there.
Point was that if there is this secret preference for dealership sold cars at the service dept...no big deal then since any extra time they take to fix my car...is just spent with me driving one of their cars. :huh:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 13, 2015, 06:22:15 AM
Yeah, I know. Its SOP there.
Point was that if there is this secret preference for dealership sold cars at the service dept...no big deal then since any extra time they take to fix my car...is just spent with me driving one of their cars. :huh:
There is a lot that goes on though most people don't realize. A customer who bought at the dealership, gets a better loaner. Or, what happens a lot, is a customer who didn't buy there gets told parts are on order and will take a week to get, just so we can pull the loaner back for a customer who bought from us. They may only need an oil change, and you may need something more involved, but they take precedence. Even though your parts will arrive within two days, you'd get rescheduled to next week. Parts departments get blamed for a lot of shit like that...LOL.
JWC, I appreciate your insights. Just reflecting on my personal experiences, what you say rings true and I never realized before. I had no idea a dealer knows where you got work done on your car in the past from a few key strokes and they actually look up this information.
Was wondering... If you buy a car on the internet, such as from CarsDirect, the actual transaction goes through a dealership. Does the "transacting" dealership consider this a vehicle bought from the dealership or do they not because they probably made less money on the transaction itself.
Quote from: veeman on November 13, 2015, 08:57:36 AM
JWC, I appreciate your insights. Just reflecting on my personal experiences, what you say rings true and I never realized before. I had no idea a dealer knows where you got work done on your car in the past from a few key strokes and they actually look up this information.
Was wondering... If you buy a car on the internet, such as from CarsDirect, the actual transaction goes through a dealership. Does the "transacting" dealership consider this a vehicle bought from the dealership or do they not because they probably made less money on the transaction itself.
It is a consideration. They'll always be polite, but you're never really "their" customer. Retired employees from the assembly plants purchase their vehicles direct from the manufacturer and delivered locally--but it is seen about the same as a Mary Kay car coming in for delivery.
Another consideration is how and where a new vehicle is financed. I always went through USAA for my purchases, which upset the managers at my dealership. Banks give dealerships incentives for financing through them. Dealerships prefer you go through them for financing.
And just to be clear, they don't know where maintenance was performed on your car (unless it is a lease vehicle), but they can tell whether or not it was them by looking at the computer history. Warranty work is on record with the manufacturer so that is found easily. And that includes where and when the vehicle was bought.
What value does this tribalism bring to the customer?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 13, 2015, 10:15:39 AM
What value does this tribalism bring to the customer?
It's not for the customer. If it were, they'd advertise it.
So you guys don't think other businesses prioritize service for loyal customers? Seriously?
Quote from: shp4man on November 13, 2015, 01:07:34 PM
So you guys don't think other businesses prioritize service for loyal customers? Seriously?
Yes, but not in such a counterproductive, vindictive, irrational manner.
Plus like SJ_GTI said, they can take as long as they want as long as the loaner is free and the car gets fixed.
Some places can't even do that though. The summer I worked at Pep Boys, they forgot to bolt a wheel on one car, and they swapped +/- and fried the electrics on this guy's classic car. It was a mess. I know some good service guys though.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 13, 2015, 01:12:15 PM
Yes, but not in such a counterproductive, vindictive, irrational manner.
Plus like SJ_GTI said, they can take as long as they want as long as the loaner is free and the car gets fixed.
Some places can't even do that though. The summer I worked at Pep Boys, they forgot to bolt a wheel on one car, and they swapped +/- and fried the electrics on this guy's classic car. It was a mess. I know some good service guys though.
LOL at Pep Boys. Sounds about right.
Quote from: JWC on November 13, 2015, 09:14:48 AM
It is a consideration. They'll always be polite, but you're never really "their" customer. Retired employees from the assembly plants purchase their vehicles direct from the manufacturer and delivered locally--but it is seen about the same as a Mary Kay car coming in for delivery.
Another consideration is how and where a new vehicle is financed. I always went through USAA for my purchases, which upset the managers at my dealership. Banks give dealerships incentives for financing through them. Dealerships prefer you go through them for financing.
And just to be clear, they don't know where maintenance was performed on your car (unless it is a lease vehicle), but they can tell whether or not it was them by looking at the computer history. Warranty work is on record with the manufacturer so that is found easily. And that includes where and when the vehicle was bought.
Mercedes can tell you the service history of the car for any work performed by any Mercedes dealership. Or so I've been told.
About 4 months ago I had the local Mazda-Ford dealer replace the airbag in the 6 under recall. When I went to pick it up they showed me a readout that said no routine service had ever been performed on the car. They kind of insisted I was courting danger. I thought about telling them the oil's gone 80,000 miles and is probably good for 80,000 more, but instead just told them I do all maintenance myself.
Quote from: CLKid on November 13, 2015, 03:49:26 PM
I thought about telling them the oil's gone 80,000 miles and is probably good for 80,000 more,
:lol: