So apparently new Subarus with CVTs are utter garbage offroad... Best is all the butthurt Subaru fan comments
https://youtu.be/WjmIke01KqE
(for reference a number of CUVs have made it up the course rather easily)
The only people taking Japanese CUVs offroad are people who make videos like this
There was a Forester in the intermediate group at the track day...... should we start doing CUV track tests too :lol:
No excuses for a company that has been touting its awd for 3 decades now ... The XC40, eclipse cross whatever, and even a CRV has made it up that trail.
Subaru has cheaped out with their lousy cvt
Nah, no fail - it's a car with w/out low range (and not a lot of power) - just wasn't built for this.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 24, 2018, 07:52:46 PM
Nah, no fail - it's a car with w/out low range (and not a lot of power) - just wasn't built for this.
It seemed to be so concerned with preventing wheel spin, that it ended it braking all 4 wheels.
Btw, the Jeep had open diffs?
A limited-slip rear diff was optional in some years, but most Cherokees had open front and rear diffs, yes.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 24, 2018, 07:52:46 PM
Nah, no fail - it's a car with w/out low range (and not a lot of power) - just wasn't built for this.
No, it has plenty of power to do the job... Subaru cuts power at all cost to protect the cvt
I see they went with the Rugged Radios version of the Baofeng handie-talkie...pfff, 2x the price for a different sticker and blue shell. :rolleyes:
Subarus have never had a reputation for being off-road monsters (rally racing excluded, but that's a different kind of off-road).
Few CUVs make it to the top of that hill. Even some better equipped (e.g. locking center diffs) than the Outback have failed. The Highlander didn't make it as far as the Outback (despite locking center diff) and the Honda Pilot (advanced terrain management system and a locking center diff, IIRC) made it about as far. The current generation Nissan Pathfinder (also a CVT) made it about as far. A Dodge Durango failed to make it up stage 3 (not that I really consider it a "crossover", nor the XJ nor latest LR Disco for that matter... Unibody != crossover). The Hyundai Kona barely made it up stage 2, and threw a transmission overheat warning twice just trying to make it that far.
Yeah, Subarus are what I call "trailhead vehicles.". They're great at bringing bikes or kayaks or gear to the trailhead, down rough unimproved roads- that can still be called roads. Older ones can do a bit more in a pinch, but they're cars, man; not mud trucks.
That being said, I've seen more than one Subie go places that trucks can't.
Quote from: MX793 on August 25, 2018, 08:19:41 AM
Subarus have never had a reputation for being off-road monsters (rally racing excluded, but that's a different kind of off-road).
Few CUVs make it to the top of that hill. Even some better equipped (e.g. locking center diffs) than the Outback have failed. The Highlander didn't make it as far as the Outback (despite locking center diff) and the Honda Pilot (advanced terrain management system and a locking center diff, IIRC) made it about as far. The current generation Nissan Pathfinder (also a CVT) made it about as far. A Dodge Durango failed to make it up stage 3 (not that I really consider it a "crossover", nor the XJ nor latest LR Disco for that matter... Unibody != crossover). The Hyundai Kona barely made it up stage 2, and threw a transmission overheat warning twice just trying to make it that far.
Yes, it's well established most CUVs suck
Also the locking center diff on the Highlander and older Honda products is complete bullshit because they disengage and 15mph or ~20% peak torque because the rear driveline is not engineered for more then 20% of the peak torque.
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 08:48:17 AM
Yes, it's well established most CUVs suck
Also the locking center diff on the Highlander and older Honda products is complete bullshit because they disengage and 15mph or ~20% peak torque because the rear driveline is not engineered for more then 20% of the peak torque.
Betcha a Roxor would idle right up that hill with its silly low range bullshit and pathetic torque.
These systems are really just for getting you unstuck from mud and snow. Pretty sure an Active Drive I Jeep something or other would do just as "badly".
I honestly don't see the big deal. No one is really rock crawling with these things.
Also, the AWD System Subaru uses in the 4AT and CVT models is inferior to the system they use with other powertrains. This system is front biased (60/40) and supposedly can go to 50/50 on demand (and apparently the clutch can "lock" it at 50/50). MT-equipped Subies have a full-time 50/50 split and can shift up to 80% to either axle.
I suspect the reason the Eclipse Cross made it was because it could put more than 50% to either axle (up to 60% to the rear).
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 08:48:17 AM
Yes, it's well established most CUVs suck
Then why are 3 of the top 5 selling vehicles in the US CVT equipped CUVs? Could it be that absolutely nobody is buying them to go offroad, or is it something more r0torish like "amrecia car buyr poopie hed"?
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 08:48:17 AM
Yes, it's well established most CUVs suck
Also the locking center diff on the Highlander and older Honda products is complete bullshit because they disengage and 15mph or ~20% peak torque because the rear driveline is not engineered for more then 20% of the peak torque.
What does an older Honda product have to do with a late-model Pilot? Toyota's system disengages at 25 mph. The older VTM-4 Honda system in the Ridgeline deactivated at 18. Nobody is hammering up narrow goat trails like the ones in the video at anywhere near those speeds. Pretty sure they weren't going more than 10 mph at any point on that trail. Probably weren't even going 5 at the 2nd and 3rd stages.
I can find literally nothing about the current Toyota Highlander/Rav system that indicates that it disengages at 20% peak engine torque output. The lock disengages when 25 mph has been reached or if the brakes are applied. Nor for the iVTM4 system in the Honda Pilot (which is the system used in the Ridgeline, not the same as the CR-V).
Quote from: Galaxy on August 24, 2018, 11:59:36 PM
It seemed to be so concerned with preventing wheel spin, that it ended it braking all 4 wheels.
Btw, the Jeep had open diffs?
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 06:35:35 AM
No, it has plenty of power to do the job... Subaru cuts power at all cost to protect the cvt
I'm gonna say no. Wheels were turning a bit and the engine was revving - why brake all 4 wheels instead of cutting throttle and why cut power but let the engine rev and strain?
At only 175 hp and car gearing, an Outback just can't put the power down.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 09:59:59 AM
I'm gonna say no. Wheels were turning a bit and the engine was revving - why brake all 4 wheels instead of cutting throttle and why cut power but let the engine rev and strain?
At only 175 hp and car gearing, an Outback just can't put the power down.
Oh no, there was no point on that trail that required more than 175 HP. Hell, there was no point that required more than about 50.
It was pretty clear the system was fighting itself.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 09:59:59 AM
I'm gonna say no. Wheels were turning a bit and the engine was revving - why brake all 4 wheels instead of cutting throttle and why cut power but let the engine rev and strain?
At only 175 hp and car gearing, an Outback just can't put the power down.
... It did cut power...
Quote from: 2o6 on August 25, 2018, 09:07:43 AM
These systems are really just for getting you unstuck from mud and snow. Pretty sure an Active Drive I Jeep something or other would do just as "badly".
I honestly don't see the big deal. No one is really rock crawling with these things.
Nope
https://youtu.be/oYjwG4sFyhM
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 25, 2018, 09:14:30 AM
Then why are 3 of the top 5 selling vehicles in the US CVT equipped CUVs? Could it be that absolutely nobody is buying them to go offroad, or is it something more r0torish like "amrecia car buyr poopie hed"?
These videos also explain why most CUVs are absolutely terrible in even small snow storms... The average American buyer has no idea what they are even buying
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 10:43:38 AM
Nope
https://youtu.be/oYjwG4sFyhM
The Renegade Trailhawk isn't Active Drive I, it's active drive Low,
Yet and still. Who cares?
r0tor is on a crusade to prove Jeep is superior to other brands because their garbage cross overs can rock climb better than Subaru...??? :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 25, 2018, 09:14:30 AM
Then why are 3 of the top 5 selling vehicles in the US CVT equipped CUVs? Could it be that absolutely nobody is buying them to go offroad, or is it something more r0torish like "amrecia car buyr poopie hed"?
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
These videos also explain why most CUVs are absolutely terrible in even small snow storms... The average American buyer has no idea what they are even buying
lol, yep.
To be fair, my wife's relatives did not understand the difference between the Pilot and the Land Cruiser.
"I don't get it, you said the one you had before wasn't very good off road"
"Well, that was a Honda, this is a Toyota, and even then it was mostly good enough."
"If you want real 4WD you have to get yourself something American and stop playing with that Jap stuff."
"yeah, sure."
I rented a Jeep for two weeks. If driving like complete garbage is the price for going up extreme trails, then the Jeep can have it. I'll keep the Subaru. ;)
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
These videos also explain why most CUVs are absolutely terrible in even small snow storms... The average American buyer has no idea what they are even buying
Never change r0tor. You are probably the last person on Google Earth who still thinks people are buying CR-Vs to hit the trails :wtf:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 25, 2018, 12:42:09 PM
Never change r0tor. You are probably the last person on Google Earth who still thinks people are buying CR-Vs to hit the trails :wtf:
Why else would they buy one? It has less interior space than a compact sedan.
Good god no not again
*has roomy crossover*
*forces family into compact sedan to make point to CarSPIN*
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 25, 2018, 10:32:30 AM
Oh no, there was no point on that trail that required more than 175 HP. Hell, there was no point that required more than about 50.
It was pretty clear the system was fighting itself.
Correct; without 4Lo the Subaru can't put the power down because the gearing is too tall.
Subaru isn't going to design a system that "fights itself" by letting the driver strain the motor against the brakes or CVT.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 01:19:48 PM
Correct; without 4Lo the Subaru can't put the power down because the gearing is too tall.
Subaru isn't going to design a system that "fights itself" by letting the driver strain the motor against the brakes or CVT.
Almost every active traction management system does.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 25, 2018, 01:29:25 PM
Almost every active traction management system does.
Think about it - letting the run motor up against brakes and/or transmission is inefficient, unpredictable and strains components. The Outback just doesn't have the power (gearing).
.Such terrain management systems are concerned with wheel speed.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 25, 2018, 10:48:22 AM
The Renegade Trailhawk isn't Active Drive I, it's active drive Low,
Yet and still. Who cares?
r0tor has since deleted his (wrong) comment to this poo-pooing the fact that it has a "crawl ratio" since he has no doubt discovered his error in posting the Jeeplet vid.
The Trailhawk Renegade has dedicated off road hardware including the aforementioned low range. It is not in any way equivalent to an Outback when it comes to off road perofrmance.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Think about it - letting the run motor up against brakes and/or transmission is inefficient, unpredictable and strains components. The Outback just doesn't have the power (gearing).
In the video they said they smelled brake and clutch fumes after a little bit of struggle. Power was getting dumped into friction surfaces SOMEwhere...
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Think about it - letting the run motor up against brakes and/or transmission is inefficient, unpredictable and strains components. The Outback just doesn't have the power (gearing).
.Such terrain management systems are concerned with wheel speed.
The brake actuators respond quicker than the throttle stepper motor does. In instances where the system is making rapid adjistments, there's generally some lag between the two. Having the brakes on when the throttle is open causes no more stress than pulling a trailer, or a stump. The transmission has to deal with that stress; except CVTs don't deal very well, which is why that system seems over eager to cut power.
Not because the engine can't handle it or because the gearing is too low.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 03:17:23 PM
r0tor has since deleted his (wrong) comment to this poo-pooing the fact that it has a "crawl ratio" since he has no doubt discovered his error in posting the Jeeplet vid.
The Trailhawk Renegade has dedicated off road hardware including the aforementioned low range. It is not in any way equivalent to an Outback when it comes to off road perofrmance.
Renegade has a pseudo low range. It doesn't have a 2-speed transfer case. Instead they use a very short 1st gear combined with a short final drive (1st + final drive is over 20:1 vs ~12-14:1 for most vehicles without a low range). In normal driving, it basically never uses 1st and takes off in 2nd, which is geared in the same range as the typical 1st gear in most cars. When you select "4LO", it forces it to take off in 1st gear. Not quite a true crawler ratio of >30:1. More akin to 2nd gear in low range on a Tacoma or 3rd gear low range on a Wrangler (or 1st gear Hi on a Rubicon). Still a fair advantage vs most vehicles that don't have anything shorter than 14:1.
Quote from: r0tor on August 25, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
These videos also explain why most CUVs are absolutely terrible in even small snow storms... The average American buyer has no idea what they are even buying
Golly, these cars are useless in even small snow storms? Begs the question how I've yet to fail to make it into work in one of America's snowiest cities for the past decade-plus driving not one of these "useless-AWD" CUVs, but a regular car with a single driven axle and open differential.
And all-season tires.
Im thinking r0tor got flexed on by a CR-V millionaire :hmm:
This feels personal.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 25, 2018, 03:22:55 PM
The brake actuators respond quicker than the throttle stepper motor does. In instances where the system is making rapid adjistments, there's generally some lag between the two. Having the brakes on when the throttle is open causes no more stress than pulling a trailer, or a stump. The transmission has to deal with that stress; except CVTs don't deal very well, which is why that system seems over eager to cut power.
Not because the engine can't handle it or because the gearing is too low.
And fuel injectors respond faster than all by an order of magnitude or more (kHz bandwidth), which is the first line of defense for cutting power.
The Outback struggled because of a lack of power (gearing), not because it was "fighting itself" (brakes on @ full throttle).
LOLS.
Subie used to put super low 1st gear in their manual cars. Just for silly shenanigans.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 25, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
LOLS.
Subie used to put super low 1st gear in their manual cars. Just for silly shenanigans.
What are you calling old? As far back as the early 90s, Subies typically ran a 3.55:1 first gear with either a 3.9:1 or 4.11:1 final drive (13.8-14.6:1 overall) in their MTs. That's on the shorter end of what I'd call "typical" for a passenger car of the fuel-injection era, but not super low by any means. My Mustang is 13.6:1. My last Mustang was 14:1. My Mazda was 13.6:1. I believe Acura Integras of the 90s were in the 14.5:1 range.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 05:46:23 PM
And fuel injectors respond faster than all by an order of magnitude or more (kHz bandwidth), which is the first line of defense for cutting power.
The Outback struggled because of a lack of power (gearing), not because it was "fighting itself" (brakes on @ full throttle).
Cut the fuel supply without cutting the airflow, and you've got a lean condition which leads to detonation. Even then, if you kill the engine entirely, it won't wind down instantly, and that energy has to be dissipated somewhere; which is the brakes.
The testers could smell frying brake pads and/or clutch.
Again, no brakes, or at least not till things are bad (or old school) - how else would launch control work? Also timing, traction control futzes with timing in addition to fuel cutoff.
Clearly, things were bad.
Low range is amazing. I use it more than necessary. Mostly because I want to make sure it gets engaged/disengaged enough so it doesn't just sit and something rusts shut or whatever. It's great for idling up hills or tackling steep/technical descents to stay off the brakes so you're not sliding around.
Quote from: MX793 on August 25, 2018, 06:58:15 PM
What are you calling old?
1978. :lol: My wagon had the spare tire up by the carberator, a 4spd, and another shift selector on the floor. That selector changed between FWD and 4WD. No clutch necessary to go into 4WD, and a GIANT green "4WD" light came on the dash. The owner manual said NEVER drive it on 4WD on dry/wet pavement or transmission damage would occur.
That thing was a tank!
Quote from: GoCougs on August 25, 2018, 03:17:23 PM
r0tor has since deleted his (wrong) comment to this poo-pooing the fact that it has a "crawl ratio" since he has no doubt discovered his error in posting the Jeeplet vid.
The Trailhawk Renegade has dedicated off road hardware including the aforementioned low range. It is not in any way equivalent to an Outback when it comes to off road perofrmance.
I didn't delete anything - shrug-
Edit -> I should add the only differences between the shittiest 4wd jeep and the trailhawk version of the shittiest 4wd jeep is a slightly more aggressive gear, a 1/2" of lift, and some nice decorations
I'm not sure if what world coug's "it doesn't have enough power" comment ever works... Lol
Quote from: r0tor on August 26, 2018, 07:05:50 PM
I'm not sure if what world coug's "it doesn't have enough power" comment ever works... Lol
You were goin hard with that same comment in regards to the Roxor...
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 26, 2018, 01:25:21 PM
Low range is amazing. I use it more than necessary. Mostly because I want to make sure it gets engaged/disengaged enough so it doesn't just sit and something rusts shut or whatever. It's great for idling up hills or tackling steep/technical descents to stay off the brakes so you're not sliding around.
People who have never had 4Lo don't realize how critical it is in all sorts of ways (including not bogging down).
Funny no one ever talks about Humvees. Except the fact they are really really wide, they're amazing off road vehicles.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 26, 2018, 07:39:54 PM
You were goin hard with that same comment in regards to the Roxor...
...The Roxor has 60hp...
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 26, 2018, 09:48:14 PM
Funny no one ever talks about Humvees. Except the fact they are really really wide, they're amazing off road vehicles.
Well, because they don't fit down most trails, were 90 grand when new, and just don't make a lot of sense as daily drivers.
That being said, I do tag along with a couple of military vehicle groups (the MVPA being the big one), and yeah; they are.
(on the power argument, they're also 6000 lb vehicles with 190 Hp- but proper gearing- which makes them a real power house when being chased around by 13,000 lb M35s with 120 HP)
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 05:31:58 AM
...The Roxor has 60hp...
Which is the same as most variants of the Jeep CJ...
Power doesn't matter for a crawler so long as you have adequately short gearing. Scrambling along trails and crawling over rocks and logs and through mud isn't about getting there quickly, it's about simply getting there. Suzuki Samurais only had like 65 hp and half the torque of a Roxor and are widely regarded as very capable off-roaders.
Quote from: MX793 on August 27, 2018, 07:05:00 AM
Which is the same as most variants of the Jeep CJ...
Power doesn't matter for a crawler so long as you have adequately short gearing. Scrambling along trails and crawling over rocks and logs and through mud isn't about getting there quickly, it's about simply getting there. Suzuki Samurais only had like 65 hp and half the torque of a Roxor and are widely regarded as very capable off-roaders.
... and not very fun.... -shrug-
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 07:20:45 AM
... and not very fun.... -shrug-
Crawling is a lot like bicycle/motorcycle trials. It's about finesse, precision, and technique, not speed and power. It's like solving a puzzle. The types of terrain tackled aren't really conducive to high speeds anyway. Something with more power isn't going to be able to traverse that terrain appreciably faster.
In the case of the Roxor, it would be a hell of a lot more fun if it had the power of its side by side competition so its not limited to "rock crawling" with open diffs
... all I'm saying...
Its not limited to rock crawling, its simply more suited to lower speed stuff- as are a lot of utility oriented side by sides.
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 08:01:32 AM
In the case of the Roxor, it would be a hell of a lot more fun if it had the power of its side by side competition so its not limited to "rock crawling" with open diffs
... all I'm saying...
It doesn't have the suspension setup to tackle rough terrain at speed. Mahindra governs these to 45 mph (in America) and I saw one video reviewer say he wouldn't want to go faster than that off of pavement because the vehicle was rather "bouncy" and would tend to buck front to back, making it both very difficult to control and cause sea-sickness.
It is a utility vehicle that happens to also be a very capable rock crawler and technical off roader. Its SBS competition isn't the Polaris RZR or Kawi Teryx. It competes with the Polaris Ranger, Kawi Mule, or John Deere Gator. Gators have <60 hp in their most potent form. The Ranger is like 85 (only like 60 lbs-ft). The Mule has 58 in its most potent form.
Nobody is taking a Roxor with open diffs rock crawling or doing anything technical. It needs to be modded to do that. Nobody is also going to take it to run around and have fun in. It's a great turd.
Almost as great a turd as Subarus CVT which can only do this IF it does not to lift a wheel while going up a hill
(https://secure-akns.subaru.com/content/media/mp_hero_560/19_OBK_photos_ext_10.jpg)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 27, 2018, 06:50:21 AM
Well, because they don't fit down most trails, were 90 grand when new, and just don't make a lot of sense as daily drivers.
That being said, I do tag along with a couple of military vehicle groups (the MVPA being the big one), and yeah; they are.
(on the power argument, they're also 6000 lb vehicles with 190 Hp- but proper gearing- which makes them a real power house when being chased around by 13,000 lb M35s with 120 HP)
Besides the stupid availability of parts, Humvees would be great for the wider areas. I'm sure a lot of Humvees are up for auction recently.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 27, 2018, 06:50:21 AM
Well, because they don't fit down most trails, were 90 grand when new, and just don't make a lot of sense as daily drivers.
That being said, I do tag along with a couple of military vehicle groups (the MVPA being the big one), and yeah; they are.
(on the power argument, they're also 6000 lb vehicles with 190 Hp- but proper gearing- which makes them a real power house when being chased around by 13,000 lb M35s with 120 HP)
The old WWI "Landship" heavy battle tanks the Brits used only had about 100 hp and weighed near 60,000 lbs. Didn't go much over walking pace, but they'd roll over anything in their path.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 27, 2018, 10:12:33 AM
Besides the stupid availability of parts, Humvees would be great for the wider areas. I'm sure a lot of Humvees are up for auction recently.
They are (check Gov Planet), and many are going for under 10 grand in near-serviceable condition. But they're rough, and many of them have blown out their transmissions (not a huge deal as they're basically beefed up TH400s, and cheap).
Quote from: MX793 on August 27, 2018, 09:52:48 AM
It doesn't have the suspension setup to tackle rough terrain at speed. Mahindra governs these to 45 mph (in America) and I saw one video reviewer say he wouldn't want to go faster than that off of pavement because the vehicle was rather "bouncy" and would tend to buck front to back, making it both very difficult to control and cause sea-sickness.
Not surprised. I've seen those videos of WW2 Jeeps bouncing all over the place
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 05:31:58 AM
...The Roxor has 60hp...
And a bunch of torque and low range. That's the point. Low grunt and gearing are importanté.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 27, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
And a bunch of torque and low range. That's the point. Low grunt and gearing are importanté.
If you want to putz around at garden tractor speed - then yes, power is not that important
So are you attacking courses like this like a baja truck? :wtf:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 27, 2018, 01:31:25 PM
So are you attacking courses like this like a baja truck? :wtf:
SEND IT
Only on carspin will people go to ends of the intertards to defend spending $20k on an indian copy of a 60 year old jeep
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 02:34:07 PM
Only on carspin will people go to ends of the intertards to defend spending $20k on an indian copy of a 60 year old jeep
(http://i.imgur.com/GBjfW6e.gif)
You are the SPIN's top "go to the ends of the intertards to argue/defend stupid shit" enthusiast
Do we need to recap your greatest hits??? My favorite was you completely losing your shit over Lebowski casually tossing your dream car.... like the star quarterback one nighting the dweeb's dream girl :lol:
:cry: you hurts me :cry:
I should also add after what like 1 or 2 years later the "winner" still has a wickedly sore ass :popcorn: :muffin:
Trying to decide what is more pathetic... A Subaru that shuts off all power, or a Toyota diff "lock" AWD that sends power to exactly 1 wheel
Hmmm :hmm:
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU
Well, clearly if you want to park your car diagonally on a shipping dock ramp, you need a humvee.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 27, 2018, 06:58:13 PM
Well, clearly if you want to park your car diagonally on a shipping dock ramp, you need a humvee.
Or maybe at least a bmw
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 27, 2018, 03:40:51 PM
Do we need to recap your greatest hits??? My favorite was you completely losing your shit over Lebowski casually tossing your dream car.... like the star quarterback one nighting the dweeb's dream girl :lol:
Holy shit that analogy was spot on hahaha
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 05:51:44 PM
Trying to decide what is more pathetic... A Subaru that shuts off all power, or a Toyota diff "lock" AWD that sends power to exactly 1 wheel
Hmmm :hmm:
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU
@ ~2:00 - Based on the amount o fdust coming from under the car and the patch of freshly churned dirt, I'm going to say it was spinning 1 front and 1 rear wheel, which is what you'd get with a 4x4 with open front and rear diffs. Seems like the center lock is doing what it's supposed to.
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 05:51:44 PM
Trying to decide what is more pathetic... A Subaru that shuts off all power, or a Toyota diff "lock" AWD that sends power to exactly 1 wheel
Hmmm :hmm:
https://youtu.be/7mUtiJgBTnU
Posting these videos isn't going so well...
It's peg legging F & R (see 2:29 - 3:30) - it's never spinning only one tire. This is common for 4WD vehicles with open differentials F & R, which a Highlander is bound to have.
Also, the driver purposefully chose to stop on off camber situations and add to that relatively low profile street tires at street pressure, and you get lousy off road performance.
Quote from: r0tor on August 27, 2018, 01:04:47 PM
If you want to putz around at garden tractor speed - then yes, power is not that important
What, uhhh...but...what were they doing on this course in the Subaru? Oh, that's right. Tractoring. I know your high strung sports coupé doesn't understand it, but.
I know you have absolutely no concept of ever driving off road, but please stop trying. You haven't a clue, and you make it more obvious every day.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 27, 2018, 09:38:16 PM
Posting these videos isn't going so well...
It's peg legging F & R (see 2:29 - 3:30) - it's never spinning only one tire. This is common for 4WD vehicles with open differentials F & R, which a Highlander is bound to have.
Also, the driver purposefully chose to stop on off camber situations and add to that relatively low profile street tires at street pressure, and you get lousy off road performance.
No, it's just a turd
https://youtu.be/47oZFQqxPU8
Quote from: MX793 on August 27, 2018, 09:29:04 PM
@ ~2:00 - Based on the amount o fdust coming from under the car and the patch of freshly churned dirt, I'm going to say it was spinning 1 front and 1 rear wheel, which is what you'd get with a 4x4 with open front and rear diffs. Seems like the center lock is doing what it's supposed to.
So why bother with a "diff lock" if you can't even get basic traction control figured out?
Just basic marketing fluff for another CUV as capable as a fwd sedan
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 27, 2018, 10:27:51 PM
What, uhhh...but...what were they doing on this course in the Subaru? Oh, that's right. Tractoring. I know your high strung sports coupé doesn't understand it, but.
I know you have absolutely no concept of ever driving off road, but please stop trying. You haven't a clue, and you make it more obvious every day.
Yes, please justify $20k for something able to putz along at garden tractor speed and incapable of doing any technical crawling due to open diffs vs its competition where you can do the same plus actually have some higher speed fun when things open up...
... Or just buying an actual wrangler which is capable of driving itself to the trail...
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 05:32:01 AM
Yes, please justify $20k for something able to putz along at garden tractor speed and incapable of doing any technical crawling due to open diffs vs its competition where you can do the same plus actually have some higher speed fun when things open up...
... Or just buying an actual wrangler which is capable of driving itself to the trail...
1. What are you considering the "competition"? This is a utility SBS, not a sport SBS. It doesn't compete with the RZR and similar. It competes with the Gator and Mule. Both are similarly or less powerful and slower (Gators can only do like 32 mph). Also less capable both on a trail and as a workhorse (Roxor can tow over 3000 lbs, useful for moving farm wagons and equipment). Mule, Gator, Ranger, etc all cost about the same as the Roxor.
2. Wrangler is too wide to be operated on many/most public ATV trails.
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 05:25:30 AM
No, it's just a turd
https://youtu.be/47oZFQqxPU8
That X1 does not have open diffs (or in the least has torque vectoring) and it's also a more expensive vehicle.
But these videos aren't helping you. The reaction time of the X1 is so slow it's really not that much more capable off road vs. the Highlander.
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 05:32:01 AM
Yes, please justify $20k for something able to putz along at garden tractor speed and incapable of doing any technical crawling due to open diffs vs its competition where you can do the same plus actually have some higher speed fun when things open up...
... Or just buying an actual wrangler which is capable of driving itself to the trail...
You'd be amazed what you can get away with without lockers. With low range and grunt. ;)
Quote from: GoCougs on August 28, 2018, 09:26:02 AM
That X1 does not have open diffs (or in the least has torque vectoring) and it's also a more expensive vehicle.
But these videos aren't helping you. The reaction time of the X1 is so slow it's really not that much more capable off road vs. the Highlander.
Lol.. Yea it has open diffs and no, no torque vectoring... It's just not a piece a crap
Even Kia has their shit together better
https://youtu.be/Ail1jaVgovY
Quote from: MX793 on August 28, 2018, 06:17:40 AM
1. What are you considering the "competition"? This is a utility SBS, not a sport SBS. It doesn't compete with the RZR and similar. It competes with the Gator and Mule. Both are similarly or less powerful and slower (Gators can only do like 32 mph). Also less capable both on a trail and as a workhorse (Roxor can tow over 3000 lbs, useful for moving farm wagons and equipment). Mule, Gator, Ranger, etc all cost about the same as the Roxor.
2. Wrangler is too wide to be operated on many/most public ATV trails.
Mules and Gators can be had for less than 1/2 the price.
Why the hell would a farmer buy a $20k Roxor to move 3000 lbs of farm equipment when they could just get a beater truck to move 3x that?
In an atv trail I'd rather be on an atv or something that can keep up with one.
What is your goddamn point?
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 28, 2018, 09:35:38 AM
You'd be amazed what you can get away with without lockers. With low range and grunt. ;)
Lockers were a relative rarity on the trails until a decade or so ago, and many vehicles did just fine without them. Yes, you often had to be smart and choose your line carefully; instead of like these videos where the driver chooses the worst line and the worst techniques in order to prove a point.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 28, 2018, 10:37:48 AM
What is your goddamn point?
He doesn't like the Roxor.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 28, 2018, 09:26:02 AM
That X1 does not have open diffs (or in the least has torque vectoring) and it's also a more expensive vehicle.
But these videos aren't helping you. The reaction time of the X1 is so slow it's really not that much more capable off road vs. the Highlander.
The X1 has open differentials with a wet pack clutch that shifts torque between the front and rear axles. If one tire starts spinning the traction control system brakes that tire to send power to the tire with traction. I'm kind of surprised that Toyota doesn't engage the traction control system to do the same thing.
Quote from: 2o6 on August 28, 2018, 10:37:48 AM
What is your goddamn point?
His point is that he's not the demographic for the Roxor so it must be an immense pile of overpriced shit.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2018, 10:46:47 AM
Lockers were a relative rarity on the trails until a decade or so ago, and many vehicles did just fine without them. Yes, you often had to be smart and choose your line carefully; instead of like these videos where the driver chooses the worst line and the worst techniques in order to prove a point.
I enjoy picking lines. Wheel placement is an art.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2018, 10:46:47 AM
Lockers were a relative rarity on the trails until a decade or so ago, and many vehicles did just fine without them. Yes, you often had to be smart and choose your line carefully; instead of like these videos where the driver chooses the worst line and the worst techniques in order to prove a point.
So if your buying or designing something to go crawlin'... Why use a pair of open diffs?
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 11:47:16 AM
So if your buying or designing something to go crawlin'... Why use a pair of open diffs?
*you're
For the umpteenth time: None of the vehicles you have mentioned are or ever were presented as dedicated rock crawlers. The Roxor is best thought of as a utility offroader, much like the original Jeeps on which its based, and the SBSs it competes with and likely does fine in that role.
Why might one want open diffs? Because they're reliable, durable, simple, and about a thousand times less likely to break axles. Because it clearly isn't aimed at the meathead gonzo extreme offroader who believes he needs 37 inch tires and 800 HP to feel like a real man.
I mean- have you ever driven a vehicle with front and rear lockers on the street?
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 11:47:16 AM
So if your buying or designing something to go crawlin'... Why use a pair of open diffs?
Rock crawling =/= trail tractoring.
So first I say it's toi under powered to have fun..
... Then get "oh its for crawling dude"
.... Point out it sucks for crawling with open diffs
... Now it's a "utility offroader" and made for tractor ING competing against rivals 1/3 to half the price?? But it's still amazing!
Holy fuck you people are entertaining
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 12:23:12 PM
So first I say it's toi under powered to have fun..
... Then get "oh its for crawling dude"
.... Point out it sucks for crawling with open diffs
... Now it's a "utility offroader" and made for tractor ING competing against rivals 1/3 to half the price?? But it's still amazing!
Holy fuck you people are entertaining
What rivals are 1/3rd the price?
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 10:26:55 AM
Mules and Gators can be had for less than 1/2 the price.
Why the hell would a farmer buy a $20k Roxor to move 3000 lbs of farm equipment when they could just get a beater truck to move 3x that?
In an atv trail I'd rather be on an atv or something that can keep up with one.
If you're looking at the base, 15 hp, 2WD models, maybe... Gator and Mule are entire families of products. The closest Gator in spec to the Roxor is the XUV835. Those start at $13k. The closest Mule is the Mule Pro-FX, which starts at $12k.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2018, 12:27:10 PM
What rivals are 1/3rd the price?
Mule, Gator, glorified golf carts - shrug-
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 01:06:45 PM
Mule, Gator, glorified golf carts - shrug-
Bullshit.
r0tor: just shut the fuck up already. We're all tired of your shit.
What the hell happened in the last couple years that turned you into this badgering, argumentative knob you've become? You start stupid, petty arguments in every god-damned thread you chime in on. And for what? You think you're going to change anyone's mind? You're just alienating yourself.
I don't understand the point of this thread. Who buys a Highlander for hard off-road use? Toyota has other products for people who want that :huh:
Quote from: Lebowski on August 28, 2018, 01:33:30 PM
I don't understand the point of this thread. Who buys a Highlander for hard off-road use? Toyota has other products for people who want that :huh:
It's literally for getting soccer moms home safely when it's a little snowy out
Quote from: 93JC on August 28, 2018, 01:30:11 PM
r0tor: just shut the fuck up already. We're all tired of your shit.
What the hell happened in the last couple years that turned you into this badgering, argumentative knob you've become? You start stupid, petty arguments in every god-damned thread you chime in on. And for what? You think you're going to change anyone's mind? You're just alienating yourself.
Go fuck yourself then
I start a thread about Subaru putting in a shit ass cvt that they basically need to put the car into limp mode in order to protect it during any kind of strain... They deserve to get this rubbed in their face
I get a fucktard hijack with the Roxor (which I DIDN'T START) because he is pissed that I think it's an overpriced POS (and it is). Go SMOKE ONE BRO AND DEAL WITH IT
I get a fucktard thread hijack about JEEPS (WHICH I DIDN'T START). BUY A CUV THAT'S 1WD... Your loss
I get a fucktard thread hijack about Lebowski's sore ass (which I did not start). THE TRUST FUND BABY CAN STILL KISS MY ASS.
You know, if you want to whine about threads being hijacked, don't turn every point made into some long drawn out, strangely personal crusade.
Oh, and you're the one who started the weird "lol these CUVs can't even drive off the wrong side of a shipping dock" videos.
Post another vid
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 01:44:46 PM
Go fuck yourself then
I start a thread about Subaru putting in a shit ass cvt that they basically need to put the car into limp mode in order to protect it during any kind of strain... They deserve to get this rubbed in their face
I get a fucktard hijack with the Roxor (which I DIDN'T START) because he is pissed that I think it's an overpriced POS (and it is). Go SMOKE ONE BRO AND DEAL WITH IT
I get a fucktard thread hijack about JEEPS (WHICH I DIDN'T START). BUY A CUV THAT'S 1WD... Your loss
I get a fucktard thread hijack about Lebowski's sore ass (which I did not start). THE TRUST FUND BABY CAN STILL KISS MY ASS.
Seems this thread has gone exactly how any of us could have predicted it would.
r0tor the longer you deny whatever issues are prompting this behavior the worse it's gonna get. It's OK to ask for help.
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 12:23:12 PM
So first I say it's toi under powered to have fun..
... Then get "oh its for crawling dude"
.... Point out it sucks for crawling with open diffs
... Now it's a "utility offroader" and made for tractor ING competing against rivals 1/3 to half the price?? But it's still amazing!
Holy fuck you people are entertaining
If I've ever said it's for crawling, I didn't mean rock crawling. lol. I mean trail crawling...tractoring. Like what I do nearly every day in the Taco.
You are way out of your element. You are so butthurt that somebody might want something that you don't, it's astonishing.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 28, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
No. In fact, your crappy Haldex AWD system would be rendered useless in even a minor snow storm.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 28, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
I doubt it, but having done a lot of ill advised things in cars before, I have to say if you're smart and careful, it would likely surprise you how far you can get.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 28, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
You just need some 35"s
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 28, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
Probably, VWs brake based vlsd's are awesome
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 28, 2018, 02:45:12 PM
If I've ever said it's for crawling, I didn't mean rock crawling. lol. I mean trail crawling...tractoring. Like what I do nearly every day in the Taco.
You are way out of your element. You are so butthurt that somebody might want something that you don't, it's astonishing.
If you have to chase me down in a separate thread to spread your crap - then face it, you already lost
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
If you have to chase me down in a separate thread to spread your crap - then face it, you already lost
What have you won?
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
If you have to chase me down in a separate thread to spread your crap - then face it, you already lost
You say "chase" like there's some sort of effort browsing the forum, or that the traffic is so thick one has to search for anything. Not like there is actually some overlap in interest or anything. Not like Carspin threads ever stay strictly on topic.
Its not like you didn't feed into the comment and go off the rails, or that there isn't some difference between what was meant between "crawling" and moab style rock crawling, or that there isn't some disconnect between what you and him are saying.
Its weird man.
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
If you have to chase me down in a separate thread to spread your crap - then face it, you already lost
Who took the bait and pulled all the line...?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 28, 2018, 05:54:09 PM
You say "chase" like there's some sort of effort browsing the forum, or that the traffic is so thick one has to search for anything. Not like there is actually some overlap in interest or anything. Not like Carspin threads ever stay strictly on topic.
Its not like you didn't feed into the comment and go off the rails, or that there isn't some difference between what was meant between "crawling" and moab style rock crawling, or that there isn't some disconnect between what you and him are saying.
Its weird man.
No, it takes a fair amount of effort if you have to dig up a 2 week old conversation and drag it into another thread because your still pissy about it.
... Or in other cases a 2 year old thread....
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 06:55:57 PM
No, it takes a fair amount of effort if you have to dig up a 2 week old conversation and drag it into another thread because your still pissy about it.
... Or in other cases a 2 year old thread....
Should I call you Mr Kettle or Mr Pot?
Quote from: MX793 on August 28, 2018, 07:40:17 PM
Should I call you Mr Kettle or Mr Pot?
Find where I try and drag old threads into new ones... Go ahead and waste your time
Quote from: r0tor on August 28, 2018, 06:55:57 PM
No, it takes a fair amount of effort if you have to dig up a 2 week old conversation and drag it into another thread because your still pissy about it.
... Or in other cases a 2 year old thread....
Does your memory not work like everyone else's? Is there some
sort of physical effort required to use it?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2018, 05:39:32 AM
Does your memory not work like everyone else's? Is there some
sort of physical effort required to use it?
So you make old hurt feelings appear in a thread through some sort of automation? Perhaps telepathy? Have a servant type them? Trained animal typing?
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 07:25:57 AM
So you make old hurt feelings appear in a thread through some sort of automation? Perhaps telepathy? Have a servant type them? Trained animal typing?
you're the master, you tell me. Did you mean "typing" when you said "digging up?" Do you really think there are anybody else's feelings hurt here?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 28, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Guys, any thoughts on if my Golf could make it up these trails? I am assuming since I have AWD I can pretty much get through any of these.
The Golf Alltrack, did not make it up Stage 3.
https://youtu.be/zwzLMAXz5r0?t=145
Quote from: Galaxy on August 29, 2018, 09:27:33 AM
The Golf Alltrack, did not make it up Stage 3.
https://youtu.be/zwzLMAXz5r0?t=145
With some more ground clearance it would have... It made the stage 2 look easy (unlike the Subaru)
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2018, 07:52:08 AM
you're the master, you tell me. Did you mean "typing" when you said "digging up?" Do you really think there are anybody else's feelings hurt here?
How else on a internet forum do you "drag" old conversations into new ones? This quote in itself represents most of what makes carspin pathetic lately.
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 09:53:14 AM
How else on a internet forum do you "drag" old conversations into new ones? This quote in itself represents most of what makes carspin pathetic lately.
So, if someone mentions an older conversation, its because their feelings are or were hirt, and they can't let go of it?
Does that make any sense at all?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2018, 09:57:19 AM
So, if someone mentions an older conversation, its because their feelings are or were hirt, and they can't let go of it?
Does that make any sense at all?
I don't know - you tell me why you brought up a completely unrelated thread in this one and expressed the same old pissy argument that I don't care about?
r0tor, seriously.... what's up man?
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 10:08:30 AM
I don't know - you tell me why you brought up a completely unrelated thread in this one and expressed the same old pissy argument that I don't care about?
Check that again. I didn't.
It looks like it was brought up to show an inconsistency in your arguments.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 29, 2018, 10:45:39 AM
r0tor, seriously.... what's up man?
So why was a CR-V relevant to this thread? Still applying butt creme to someone's backside 2 years later?
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 10:56:37 AM
So why was a CR-V relevant to this thread? Still applying butt creme to someone's backside 2 years later?
Why does it even matter? Why are you so angry?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 29, 2018, 11:11:25 AM
Why does it even matter? Why are you so angry?
Because the thread got hijacked and this is now relevant
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2018, 10:55:29 AM
Check that again. I didn't.
It looks like it was brought up to show an inconsistency in your arguments.
Ah, I thought you were trying to be a mouthpiece for your little buddy.
It was brought up in page 1 and I ignored the troll bait.
It was then brought up again and I minimally responded... and then the dog pile starts with the same crap that was covered weeks ago with the same conclusion. Wtf is the point?
"Hey Alexa, can you please insert hurt feelings into r0tor's thread"
At this rate, r0tor will call someone a pedo and post funding secured by the end of the week :lol:
Quote from: MrH on August 29, 2018, 12:13:29 PM
At this rate, r0tor will call someone a pedo and post funding secured by the end of the week :lol:
Oh look, another fucktard thread hijack
No dog, it's supply chain issues yo... I'm going to predict bankruptcy every quarter for decades until I'm right :wanker:
CR-V thing was like 2 months ago, not 2 years?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 29, 2018, 12:17:59 PM
CR-V thing was like 2 months ago, not 2 years?
Oh hell no... Leblowski knocked up his maid, got kicked out of the trust fund, and had to liquidate his house and car a hell of a long time ago
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 11:55:58 AM
Ah, I thought you were trying to be a mouthpiece for your little buddy.
It was brought up in page 1 and I ignored the troll bait.
It was then brought up again and I minimally responded... and then the dog pile starts with the same crap that was covered weeks ago with the same conclusion. Wtf is the point?
"Hey Alexa, can you please insert hurt feelings into r0tor's thread"
No, I was trying to point out what an absolute twatwaffle you're being while maintaining a modicum politeness.
Quote from: r0tor on August 29, 2018, 12:19:27 PM
Oh hell no... Leblowski knocked up his maid, got kicked out of the trust fund, and had to liquidate his house and car a hell of a long time ago
CRV thread was under a year ago. 2 years ago this time I think you were still in hiding following the Mrs Rotor sperm bank episode?
My awesome 2018 AWD CR-V successfully made it over a speed bump in the Whole Foods parking lot yesterday... took it quite slowly - I'd bought a case of rather fine claret, did not want to disturb the sediment.
Glad to hear your box of Franzia came away unscathed. :lol: :devil:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 29, 2018, 12:42:34 PM
No, I was trying to point out what an absolute twatwaffle you're being while maintaining a modicum politeness.
(http://cdn.asmdss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Hurt-Feelings-Report.jpg)
Nice to see you keep those on file.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
This thread is great guys.
Quote from: SVT_Power on August 29, 2018, 03:49:44 PM
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
This thread is great guys.
+1
:popcorn:
Someone please keep poking the bear.
Quote from: Galaxy on August 29, 2018, 09:27:33 AM
The Golf Alltrack, did not make it up Stage 3.
https://youtu.be/zwzLMAXz5r0?t=145
I bet if it had a cvt it would have made it all the way up.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 29, 2018, 06:51:21 PM
I bet if it had a cvt it would have made it all the way up.
Or maybe if the guy driving it didn't weigh 400 pounds.
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 29, 2018, 07:24:25 PM
Or maybe if the guy driving it didn't weigh 400 pounds.
Better traction :lol:
They tried again and made it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ua51LAtgVM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ua51LAtgVM)
I am sick of all this damn popcorn :lol:
I can think of Wranglers, Land/Range Rovers & the 4Runner. Are there any other contenders out of the dealer's door for serious off-roading?
Maybe weather conditions were different and suddenly the Subaru had enough power to move itself :hmm:
Quote from: Morris Minor on September 10, 2018, 05:22:01 AM
I can think of Wranglers, Land/Range Rovers & the 4Runner. Are there any other contenders out of the dealer's door for serious off-roading?
Trucks. Big or small. Plus the older Cherokees.
Quote from: r0tor on September 10, 2018, 07:19:26 AM
Maybe weather conditions were different and suddenly the Subaru had enough power to move itself :hmm:
They played around with the TCS and "X mode" settings (toggling things on and off).
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 11, 2018, 10:07:44 AM
Trucks. Big or small. Plus the older Cherokees.
Big trucks (half tons and bigger) typically have low break over angles which make them pretty poor for tackling rough terrain. Long wheelbases are killer without a huge lift kit.
Yeah, a Silverado can be okay with a lift. Can be made to be good in the mud. But tight trails and technical off-roading...not so much. Just too big/long, especially once you put a lift and some bigger tires on. They become masssssive, and that can be very cumbersome in the woods.
Quote from: MX793 on September 11, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
They played around with the TCS and "X mode" settings (toggling things on and off).
Yea... I know... Just pointing this out to cougs
Quote from: MX793 on September 06, 2018, 06:33:59 PM
They tried again and made it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ua51LAtgVM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ua51LAtgVM)
Whaddya know. It did better without the fancy computer crap.
A different (easier) line was what sealed the deal
Quote from: MX793 on September 11, 2018, 10:16:25 AM
Big trucks (half tons and bigger) typically have low break over angles which make them pretty poor for tackling rough terrain. Long wheelbases are killer without a huge lift kit.
The question is for how much of off-roading one really needs such a built vehicle? The most off-roading I have done was in Namibia in a lifted VW T2, and that did not even have AWD, and that could handle most of the terrain in Africa except for the sand dunes. Granted it did not rain.
Quote from: r0tor on September 11, 2018, 10:34:11 AM
A different (easier) line was what sealed the deal
That same line was used by some of the other soft roaders that made it. IIRC, they also attempted that line in the first video (and almost made it).
Quote from: Galaxy on September 11, 2018, 10:37:13 AM
The question is for how much of off-roading one really needs such a built vehicle? The most off-roading I have done was in Namibia in a lifted VW T2, and that did not even have AWD, and that could handle most of the terrain in Africa except for the sand dunes. Granted it did not rain.
If you're traversing relatively flat terrain with dry, firm/packed soil, that's generally fine. If you're tackling lumpier terrain (like the deserts in the American Southwest can be due to temporary streams that form during flash floods) full of steep and abrupt dips or inclines, clearance and approach/breakover/departure angles are important, as is AWD/4WD on some of the steeper hills.
Quote from: r0tor on September 11, 2018, 10:34:11 AM
A different (easier) line was what sealed the deal
Also true.
Quote from: r0tor on September 11, 2018, 10:34:11 AM
A different (easier) line was what sealed the deal
Doing a test like this, it would be expected that the driver know what they're doing.
Even though the original test showed potential weaknesses in the system, its also fair to call the original test a driver failure.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 11, 2018, 10:37:13 AM
The question is for how much of off-roading one really needs such a built vehicle? The most off-roading I have done was in Namibia in a lifted VW T2, and that did not even have AWD, and that could handle most of the terrain in Africa except for the sand dunes. Granted it did not rain.
Those old busses would surprise a lot of people, and the fact is thatmost vehicles will handle more than you would expect.
Of course here in the states, most people are convinced anything smaller than 33" tires, lockers front and rear, and a 20,000lb winch are basic equipment for traversing anything more than a slightly overgrown lawn.
There's also a big difference between using a vehicle to get where you want to be, and using it to prove where it can go.
Quote from: MX793 on September 11, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
They played around with the TCS and "X mode" settings (toggling things on and off).
Mightily struggled with power as well, which isn't its fault - low range exists for a very good reason, and an Outback on steep terrain is it.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on September 11, 2018, 01:39:52 PM
Doing a test like this, it would be expected that the driver know what they're doing.
Even though the original test showed potential weaknesses in the system, its also fair to call the original test a driver failure.
No, completely killing power to protect the transmission when using the offroad traction mode is a complete failure
Quote from: r0tor on September 11, 2018, 06:27:59 PM
No, completely killing power to protect the transmission when using the offroad traction mode is a complete failure
I'd rather back down a hill with my powertrain intact and get home than back down a hill with a floppy half shaft or busted transmission and not get home.
I'd rather just have a transmission that doesn't need to have a life insurance policy
Quote from: r0tor on September 11, 2018, 06:55:06 PM
I'd rather just have a transmission that doesn't need to have a life insurance policy
Well, yeah, but...if it's between blowing up and not blowing up...I'll choose not blowing up...
It's all about what a vehicle is built for- and Subarus (as some of y'all pointed out) are to get to the trailhead, not to go up a big trail. My 78 wagon had an extremely low 1st gear and real locked-differentials 4wd and we took it up some silly trails but looking back now I'm glad we didn't get stranded.
ALSO, off-roading means different things to different people. Out west sometimes the "trail" is an acre wide. Some people like "mud bogging". I've heard others call off-road "Baja-ing" or "cross countrying". That's why I mentioned trucks.
Hmm, the Honda is quite respectable. They should do a low-range CVT option. I think Chrysler did years ago as an option for the Patriot.
Trail-Rated CR-V - there would be no excuse for for not owning a CR-V.
CR-V AWD
Torques: 179 @ 2,000
Wheelbase: 104.7"
Ground clearance: 8.2" (sits a tad higher than the 2WD)
Breakover angle 17.8°
Approach Angle: 20.8°
Departure Angle: 24.8°
Outback
Torques: 174 @ 4,000
Wheelbase: 108.1"
Ground clearance: 8.7"
Breakover angle 18.3°
Approach Angle: 18.5°
Departure Angle: 22.7°
old Jeep Cherokee
Torques: 225 @ 4,000 (~180 @ idle)
Wheelbase: 101.4”
Ground clearance: 8" (-ish; depends on the tires, as this is measured from the bottom of the differentials. The lowest part of the body itself is the transmission cross-member, which is about a foot off the ground.)
Breakover angle: 21°
Approach angle: 38°
Departure angle: 32°
:lol:
It would be awesome if they sold Cherokees still. Update the engine a bit (a BIT. Nothing too complicated) and use nicer modern plastics. Keep the seats the same, the simple dash design, the rugged drivetrain. Add some gears to the transmission for better highway cruising but don't sacrifice low range.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 13, 2018, 06:10:44 PM
It would be awesome if they sold Cherokees still. Update the engine a bit (a BIT. Nothing too complicated) and use nicer modern plastics. Keep the seats the same, the simple dash design, the rugged drivetrain. Add some gears to the transmission for better highway cruising but don't sacrifice low range.
They could make a killing.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 13, 2018, 06:10:44 PM
It would be awesome if they sold Cherokees still. Update the engine a bit (a BIT. Nothing too complicated) and use nicer modern plastics. Keep the seats the same, the simple dash design, the rugged drivetrain. Add some gears to the transmission for better highway cruising but don't sacrifice low range.
https://www.jeep.com/cherokee.html
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on October 24, 2018, 07:42:53 AM
https://www.jeep.com/cherokee.html
That's a Fiat with a body kit.
Goddamn I want an XJ so bad.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 13, 2018, 06:10:44 PM
It would be awesome if they sold Cherokees still. Update the engine a bit (a BIT. Nothing too complicated) and use nicer modern plastics. Keep the seats the same, the simple dash design, the rugged drivetrain. Add some gears to the transmission for better highway cruising but don't sacrifice low range.
What would a modern XJ do that a Wrangler doesn't?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 24, 2018, 09:10:29 AM
What would a modern XJ do that a Wrangler doesn't?
This. If you want a car with solid axles and BOF and good approach and departure angles, buy a Wrangler.
The current lineup of Car-based off-roaders are perfect for Jeep clientele. Most old Cherokees stayed on road anyway. And the new style FWD crossovers actually don't embarass themselves off road, either.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 24, 2018, 09:10:29 AM
What would a modern XJ do that a Wrangler doesn't?
Be smaller. Have a more livable cabin.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 24, 2018, 09:12:19 AM
This. If you want a car with solid axles and BOF and good approach and departure angles, buy a Wrangler.
The current lineup of Car-based off-roaders are perfect for Jeep clientele. Most old Cherokees stayed on road anyway. And the new style FWD crossovers actually don't embarass themselves off road, either.
The Cherokee was never BOF.
It was also more livable with day-to-day, is smaller than modern Wranglers, and as capable as it needs to be.
Its always he guys that do not and have no interest in off roading that don't get it; and that's OK.
I like the looks of the XJ more than the Wrangler.
The Patriot is similar, and because of that I sometimes have a weird desire for one. But other than styling it's not very good.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 24, 2018, 09:19:56 AM
The Cherokee was never BOF.
It was also more livable with day-to-day, is smaller than modern Wranglers, and as capable as it needs to be.
Its always he guys that do not and have no interest in off roading that don't get it; and that's OK.
Who would buy one tho? I can't see Jeep making a unibody small RWD chassis with solid axles for people to buy. The last one they had was the Liberty (although had independent front suspension) and it was mediocre, and effectively got its ass handed to it by the CR-V crowd.
I could see something like a Jeep version of the new Suzuki Jimny working. But a compact RWD SUV? IDK it seems like it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 24, 2018, 09:25:00 AM
I like the looks of the XJ more than the Wrangler.
The Patriot is similar, and because of that I sometimes have a weird desire for one. But other than styling it's not very good.
That's a Lancer with a lift kit
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 24, 2018, 09:12:23 AM
Be smaller. Have a more livable cabin.
Smaller, yeah. But IDK modern wranglers (especially the very latest one) are pretty fuckin nice for what they are.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 24, 2018, 09:31:50 AM
That's a Lancer with a lift kit
That's why I said the styling is the only part that really attracts me. I wish it had a V6 and a beefier platform.
Quote from: 2o6 on October 24, 2018, 09:31:50 AM
Smaller, yeah. But IDK modern wranglers (especially the very latest one) are pretty fuckin nice for what they are.
Until they crash because the frame welds fail. :lol:
Yeah no chance that they'll make a modernized old-school Cherokee. It would just eat either Wrangler or CUV Cherokee sales, and 4Runners exist for people who want off-road capability with a comfortable cabin.
It'd be nice if Nissan brought back the Xterra though. That's basically the original Cherokee's market segment.
BTW, so that I don't have to scroll through 7 pages of posts, someone did post the follow-up video where they turned off X Mode and made it up, right?
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 05, 2018, 12:23:04 PM
BTW, so that I don't have to scroll through 7 pages of posts, someone did post the follow-up video where they turned off X Mode and made it up, right?
Yes.
They recently posted a new video demonstrating what Subaru's, and the other CUVs', AWD system is really designed for: slick road surfaces. They put rollers under varying wheels to simulate low/no traction (ice) at that wheel. Including scenarios when 3 tires are on ice.
Quote from: MX793 on November 05, 2018, 01:01:43 PM
They recently posted a new video demonstrating what Subaru's, and the other CUVs', AWD system is really designed for: slick road surfaces. They put rollers under varying wheels to simulate low/no traction (ice) at that wheel. Including scenarios when 3 tires are on ice.
90% of systems can pass that test... You only need to transfer maybe 3% of the engine power to move a car on level ground 1 foot
Quote from: r0tor on November 05, 2018, 02:41:21 PM
90% of systems can pass that test... You only need to transfer maybe 3% of the engine power to move a car on level ground 1 foot
If it makes you feel any better, they also did it on a sloped loading dock (though less successfully).
http://youtu.be/zE5hfbhN5FM?t=243
Most predictable...
Quote from: r0tor on November 05, 2018, 05:06:48 PM
Most predictable...
You predicted that the primary reason it wouldn't succeed was tire traction, not a limitation of the AWD system itself?
Poor tire traction is caused by poor articulation. It is unknown if it could transfer enough power if the wheel had enough traction.... or if the CVT would limit the power. It is incredibly hard to transfer power by brakes alone.
After a minute or two of that the system would completely overheat and fail... Like the original video.
Quote from: r0tor on November 05, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Poor tire traction is caused by poor articulation. It is unknown if it could transfer enough power if the wheel had enough traction.... or if the CVT would limit the power. It is incredibly hard to transfer power by brakes alone.
That's fair. I'd be interested to see what would happen if they put a block with traction under the fourth wheel so that all four would be at the same height. It's also kind of weird that they didn't try it with both VDC and X Mode on.
FWIW, they tried the same test with a Pilot with effectively the same results - it only got off the rollers because it slid sideways and gained traction on the edge of the riser. I don't think they've done the inclined test with any other vehicles yet. The Outback at least looked like it was trying a bit harder to find a wheel with traction. The Pilot had a lot more spinning.
Quote from: r0tor on November 05, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
After a minute or two of that the system would completely overheat and fail... Like the original video.
...but not like the follow-up where they made it up the same feature.
Besides, as has been reiterated, very few people purchase these cars to go up true off-road features like that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the CVT and will get a manual if I buy a Subaru, but calling them garbage off-road because of one video where they were obviously putting it somewhere the vehicle wasn't really supposed to go, especially since they went back and made it up later one, is... actually about what I've come to expect around here. :facepalm: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: BimmerM3 on November 05, 2018, 07:50:44 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the CVT and will get a manual if I buy a Subaru, but calling them garbage off-road because of one video where they were obviously putting it somewhere the vehicle wasn't really supposed to go, especially since they went back and made it up later one, is... actually about what I've come to expect around here. :facepalm: :lol:
The tests show Subaru has downgraded itself from class leading awd to just plain average. I have little doubt a 15 year old Outback would pass these tests relatively easily.
Is average fine for most - probably. Does it still deserve being highly touted for their awd... probably not. For a brand that pins its success on awd, I think it's a problematic direction.
I don't disagree, but they probably feel the need to have their consumption and on-road performance specs be somewhat competitive with the cheater AWD-lite configurations. They still need to sell units, and CVT gives them parity in the metrics that most [naive] customers care about.
Quote from: r0tor on November 05, 2018, 06:55:31 PM
Poor tire traction is caused by poor articulation. It is unknown if it could transfer enough power if the wheel had enough traction.... or if the CVT would limit the power. It is incredibly hard to transfer power by brakes alone.
After a minute or two of that the system would completely overheat and fail... Like the original video.
I really don't think those rollers are high enough for it to be an articulation issue. With an IRS, the rear tire should have still had a pretty square stance and contact patch. I'd say it came down to the fact that on an incline, there is less normal force between the road and tires, so friction is reduced. I'd also be curious just how grippy that loading dock pavement was relative to well-travel road pavement. It very well could have been contaminated with oils or other things that washed down the ramp in the rain and collected near the bottom. Or, if it had recently been sealed, it wouldn't be very grippy (coloration makes it look like it was sealed much more recently than the grayer pavement next to it).
Ummm... It's highly unlikely a loading ramp would require 4wd/awd since the trucks that use it are RWD with open diffs
Quote from: r0tor on November 06, 2018, 04:45:46 PM
Ummm... It's highly unlikely a loading ramp would require 4wd/awd since the trucks that use it are RWD with open diffs
No, they wouldn't normally have a problem. And the drive wheels barely enter the ramped portion at all.
Did get stuck in one once though. And then again at the driveway leaving the plant.
I imagine the folks at Subaru also have to take into account the strength of the half shafts. Can't just go putting full load on one CV shaft unless it's designed for it.
Quote from: Laconian on November 06, 2018, 03:47:21 PM
I don't disagree, but they probably feel the need to have their consumption and on-road performance specs be somewhat competitive with the cheater AWD-lite configurations. They still need to sell units, and CVT gives them parity in the metrics that most [naive] customers care about.
Not to mention that they still have more ground clearance than almost any other crossover, which is more important than AWD fanciness for the type of off-roading that real world owners buy these vehicles for (rough gravel roads).
I'd be a lot more concerned about long term durability of the CVT than whether or not it can push me up a ramp with one wheel.