Tesla

Started by SJ_GTI, February 23, 2017, 07:11:02 AM

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r0tor

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2017, 09:41:23 PM
The point as stated is despite costing only half as much, the Bolt has better quality, engineering and design. Sure the Model S has more power and what not but the Bolt is simply the better executed vehicle.




So better quality, engineering, and design = slow crappy econobox.... OK... Smoke another one
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 05:26:46 AM
So better quality, engineering, and design = slow crappy econobox.... OK... Smoke another one
Faster <> better engineered. The fact that GM was able to make a 200+ mile range electric car, I'm assuming at a profit, for half the Tesla's price = better engineering to me. Anyone can engineer anything with an unlimited budget and no profitability goals.  And what's crappy about the Bolt? It's an economy car, so what? Some of the best automotive engineering exercises have been economy cars.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

So Tesla starts building from scratch a luxury car that completely turned the idea of all electric cars upside-down.  The purposely went after the high price segment to drive funding for the program, fund a nation wide recharging system, and additional programs that would be cheaper...

GM, an established company, comes in ( decades after completely fucking up electric cars so badly that they disappeared for 20 years) after Tesla once again made electric cars at least palatable, and produces a generic econobox that is slower, worse handling, worse stopping, and has no real recharging infrastructure for a cheaper price... and this is superior engineering???
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Payman

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 11:14:35 AM
So Tesla starts building from scratch a luxury car that completely turned the idea of all electric cars upside-down.  The purposely went after the high price segment to drive funding for the program, fund a nation wide recharging system, and additional programs that would be cheaper...

GM, an established company, comes in ( decades after completely fucking up electric cars so badly that they disappeared for 20 years) after Tesla once again made electric cars at least palatable, and produces a generic econobox that is slower, worse handling, worse stopping, and has no real recharging infrastructure for a cheaper price... and this is superior engineering???

Where do you get your information from? The GM Impact was produced before Lithium-Ion battery technology, at a time when an electric car was on NOBODY's radar (except for a few B-grade celebrities). For the time though, it was a solid effort, but there was simply no profit to be had, and the low-cost tech wouldn't be realized for another 10-15 years. As for the Bolt, with every magazine test it's been lauded as one of the best small cars available in terms of performance, handling, fun to drive, and fit & finish.

2o6

You do realize the Bolt is 1/2 the price of a base model S, right?


No one knows how the model 3 will drive, and just from the looks of it it doesn't seem to be very well thought out

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 05:26:46 AM
So better quality, engineering, and design = slow crappy econobox.... OK... Smoke another one

Huh? The Bolt, at least on full charge, runs with the likes of a GT or Focus ST (0-60 in low 6s, 1/4 mile in high 14s). Not as fast as the Model S of course but decently quick.

The Model S is more a kit car what with the quality (particularly panel gap) issues and mounting reliability issues. Musk didn't do anything special other than selling snake oil - building and selling a car that will likely never turn a profit.

M/T chose the Bolt over the Tesla S because it's simply a better executed vehicle. GM wins again and you're just going to have to accept that.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 11:14:35 AM
So Tesla starts building from scratch a luxury car that completely turned the idea of all electric cars upside-down.
No, they didn't. And calling the Model S a luxury car is a stretch. If any car turned the idea of electric cars upside-down, it was- SURPRISE- the Volt, which was made and engineered by GM. Only thing Tesla has going for it is Musk, who is great at selling dreams and hype to people like you
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
No, they didn't. And calling the Model S a luxury car is a stretch. If any car turned the idea of electric cars upside-down, it was- SURPRISE- the Volt, which was made and engineered by GM. Only thing Tesla has going for it is Musk, who is great at selling dreams and hype to people like you

Oh come on.  The electric car died with this pile of shit



It was so damn aweful no manufacturer even bothered with full electric cars for what 20 years?  GM went out an put in people's minds that EV = slow + ugly + built like crap

Tesla went out and built a damn car that not only looks sexy, but it will accelerate like a supercar, handle like a sports car, and still have enough range to be useful.  That has changed the industry and the EV demographic.  Tesla actually made EVs desirable and something people strive to own.  This is why the 3 sold out for years in a matter of hours.

The Volt is hampered by failed logic that "it needs to look different".  It will be forgotten in history.  The Bolt will try and bring EV's back to being cheap like the original EV1 turd spaceship.  Hopefully it doesn't end up killing EVs again.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

Quote from: 2o6 on February 24, 2017, 11:54:37 AM
You do realize the Bolt is 1/2 the price of a base model S, right?


No one knows how the model 3 will drive, and just from the looks of it it doesn't seem to be very well thought out

The fact the 3 doesn't look like a $15,000 car that costs $37k+  is already leaps and bounds better than GM
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

Wow, such fanboi. Much butthurt.

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 02:59:45 PM
It was so damn aweful no manufacturer even bothered with full electric cars for what 20 years?  GM went out an put in people's minds that EV = slow + ugly + built like crap

Tesla went out and built a damn car that not only looks sexy, but it will accelerate like a supercar, handle like a sports car, and still have enough range to be useful.  That has changed the industry and the EV demographic.  Tesla actually made EVs desirable and something people strive to own.  This is why the 3 sold out for years in a matter of hours.

The Model S came out in 2012.... the same year as the RAV4 EV, Focus Electric, BYD e6 and Mitsubishi i. Not to mention the Fisker Karma, which came out in 2012. So they didn't jump start anything.

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 02:59:45 PMThe Volt is hampered by failed logic that "it needs to look different".  It will be forgotten in history.  The Bolt will try and bring EV's back to being cheap like the original EV1 turd spaceship.  Hopefully it doesn't end up killing EVs again.
The Bolt's exterior design is dictated by the fact that GM wanted to make it as practical as possible. You really think they wanted the Bolt to look like a breadbox? OR that every electric car has to look like Catharine Zeta-Jones slinking under the lasers in Entrapment? :confused:

And the EV1 came out 21 years ago.... do you know how much battery tech has advanced since then? The EV1 had NiMH.... they don't even use that shit anymore, it's all about lithium ion now which was not even available back then. Not to mention the fact that the EV1 came out at a time of historically low gas prices while the Tesla came out with gas at record highs:



Add that to the fact that most of the Tesla's main competitors- S-Class, 7, A8, LS and to a degree even the Panamera were all a little long in the tooth, with the first crop being pretty conservative in design, its no wonder Tesla got the reaction it did. A lot of its success came down to timing, not brilliance.... if it were brilliant they would have figured out how to sell a $90K car for a profit
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2017, 03:13:16 PM
Wow, such fanboi. Much butthurt.

The Model S came out in 2012.... the same year as the RAV4 EV, Focus Electric, BYD e6 and Mitsubishi i. Not to mention the Fisker Karma, which came out in 2012. So they didn't jump start anything.

Which one of those left a lasting impression?  If it was up to those cars with terrible sales and non existent interest to pave the way for EVs... would the Bolt even exist today?

Quote
The Bolt's exterior design is dictated by the fact that GM wanted to make it as practical as possible. You really think they wanted the Bolt to look like a breadbox? OR that every electric car has to look like Catharine Zeta-Jones slinking under the lasers in Entrapment? :confused:

It looks like a Spark which costs $25k less.  The Bolt will be centimated [-cougs-] based on sheer looks if the 3 resembles what they have shown at a similar price. 

Quote
And the EV1 came out 21 years ago.... do you know how much battery tech has advanced since then? The EV1 had NiMH.... they don't even use that shit anymore, it's all about lithium ion now which was not even available back then. Not to mention the fact that the EV1 came out at a time of historically low gas prices while the Tesla came out with gas at record highs:



Add that to the fact that most of the Tesla's main competitors- S-Class, 7, A8, LS and to a degree even the Panamera were all a little long in the tooth, with the first crop being pretty conservative in design, its no wonder Tesla got the reaction it did. A lot of its success came down to timing, not brilliance.... if it were brilliant they would have figured out how to sell a $90K car for a profit

So now your comparing it (rightfully so) to other lux manufacturers.  Good for you.  If it was all a matter of battery tech and gas prices - where is any other manufacturers EVs that people are waiting in line to get?  The fact is Musk had a certain genius vision that did change the entire segment.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

2o6

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 02:59:45 PM
Oh come on.  The electric car died with this pile of shit



It was so damn aweful no manufacturer even bothered with full electric cars for what 20 years?  GM went out an put in people's minds that EV = slow + ugly + built like crap

Tesla went out and built a damn car that not only looks sexy, but it will accelerate like a supercar, handle like a sports car, and still have enough range to be useful.  That has changed the industry and the EV demographic.  Tesla actually made EVs desirable and something people strive to own.  This is why the 3 sold out for years in a matter of hours.

The Volt is hampered by failed logic that "it needs to look different".  It will be forgotten in history.  The Bolt will try and bring EV's back to being cheap like the original EV1 turd spaceship.  Hopefully it doesn't end up killing EVs again.


Are you just talking out of your ass now?


The problem with the EV1 (and literally every electric car from that era; Nissan's Altra EV, and the RAV4 EV and the Chrysler EPIC had similar issues) was the batteries. Battery technology was just not there yet.


Actually the EV1 was the most drivable out of all the cars from 1996; the Chrysler EPIC only went 70MPH....

The EV1 was at least normal, went from 0-60 in 9 seconds which is totally normal.


The Tesla Model 3 is a commuter car. It will also be as pedestrian as the Bolt.


secondly, a lot of the information and lessons learned went into GM hydrogen and GM hybrid models - the first of which came out 10 years later. (GM sequel, the Hybrid Silverados, the Volt)

2o6

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 03:29:20 PM
Which one of those left a lasting impression?  If it was up to those cars with terrible sales and non existent interest to pave the way for EVs... would the Bolt even exist today?


do you not have any concept of how research and design works? The EV1 project contributed a lot of information which GM used on the Volt I and other EV and green projects.


It looks like a Spark which costs $25k less.  The Bolt will be centimated [-cougs-] based on sheer looks if the 3 resembles what they have shown at a similar price. 

no the fuck it doesn't. Besides, the model 3 also has a cheap and spartan interior....it's a mainstream Carl

So now your comparing it (rightfully so) to other lux manufacturers.  Good for you.  If it was all a matter of battery tech and gas prices - where is any other manufacturers EVs that people are waiting in line to get?  The fact is Musk had a certain genius vision that did change the entire segment.

your point?

12,000 RPM

#44
Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 03:29:20 PM
Which one of those left a lasting impression?  If it was up to those cars with terrible sales and non existent interest to pave the way for EVs... would the Bolt even exist today?
None of those cars could exist and the Bolt would still exist, as GM used the know how they got from the Volt :huh:

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 03:29:20 PMIt looks like a Spark which costs $25k less.  The Bolt will be centimated [-cougs-] based on sheer looks if the 3 resembles what they have shown at a similar price.
The 3 and Bolt are not competitors, the same way a 3 Active Hybrid and Prius Prime are not competitors. One has zero bearing on the other :huh:

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 03:29:20 PMSo now your comparing it (rightfully so) to other lux manufacturers.  Good for you.  If it was all a matter of battery tech and gas prices - where is any other manufacturers EVs that people are waiting in line to get?  The fact is Musk had a certain genius vision that did change the entire segment.
Its no different than goofy Apple hype. Is an Iphone technologically superior to my $200 Asus? Of course not. But they established a name, seized an opportunity and marketed brilliantly. No established manufacturer is going to be able to get a fresh start with their image the way Tesla did, so setting the same expectations for response is retarded. Once people hear "GM" their mind is already made up one way or another as you've been demonstrating with your froth mouthed fanboism here.

But for shit that actually matters- like turning a profit- GM has Tesla licked, easily, even if the Bolt/Mary Barra don't make you cum in your cheap ass ill fitting jeans. Being able to convince people shit is gold is a talent but I personally value actually building good things :huh:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

2o6

Aside from driving experience, technologically there's not that much cutting edge tech on the Tesla cars, aside from a super dense battery.


If you put the same battery density on say...a Nissan Leaf, it would go just as far, maybe farther than the Tesla cars. But obviously cost, packaging, manufacturing issues abound. I mean, hell, Tesla still hasn't turned a profit.


2o6

With that said, I think we should wait and see about this car. Elon's grandstanding IMO doesnt seem to help anything. Tesla is a very Apple-like company; they could release a piece of half-baked trash and the tesla fans would eat it up. That interior alone is one of the most ill-conceived things I've seen in a car lately.

12,000 RPM

I dont think its fair to compare to Apple.... as far as I know Apple has its manufacturing game locked down and hoovers up 90+% of smartphone profit share

Tesla is alive solely off of the good will of doe eyed investors and fanbois like r0tor.... by most meaningful metrics the company is a failure :neverforget:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

12,000 RPM

Also lulz @ handling like a supercar when it couldn't even make it around 1 lap of VIR :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 02:59:45 PM
Oh come on.  The electric car died with this pile of shit



It was so damn aweful no manufacturer even bothered with full electric cars for what 20 years?  GM went out an put in people's minds that EV = slow + ugly + built like crap

Tesla went out and built a damn car that not only looks sexy, but it will accelerate like a supercar, handle like a sports car, and still have enough range to be useful.  That has changed the industry and the EV demographic.  Tesla actually made EVs desirable and something people strive to own.  This is why the 3 sold out for years in a matter of hours.

The Volt is hampered by failed logic that "it needs to look different".  It will be forgotten in history.  The Bolt will try and bring EV's back to being cheap like the original EV1 turd spaceship.  Hopefully it doesn't end up killing EVs again.

The EV1 "failed" because the battery tech simply wasn't there. Virtually no one knows about the EV1 so no such precedent was set.

Any automaker could've built a Model S. There is nothing special about the Model S except that it has a big battery and the $70k+ price tag to go with it. Thing is, established automakers did not build a Model S because they knew that virtually nobody would buy it from them, and that it would be a huge money loser, just like Tesla is now proving.

Tesla does deserve some credit for elevating the notion of electric cars, but it did so on a wing and prayer - mountains of debt, running in the red, super cheap assets after the collapse, and Musk's salesmanship. Perhaps the Model 3 will turn Tesla's fortunes but all indications are the Bolt is the better car, and will be on the market. But then again, some 15 years on after the introduction of hybrid tech, and pretty much all hybrids that aren't Toyotas are market failures...


r0tor

Quote from: 2o6 on February 24, 2017, 03:37:07 PM

no the fuck it doesn't. Besides, the model 3 also has a cheap and spartan interior....it's a mainstream Carl


Spark or Bolt.... $13k or $37k





:violin:  :huh:

Let's see... One of those for about $40k or this... Yea, I know where my money would go - this isn't even a fair fight





2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

r0tor

As far as the Model S profit crybabyness, the damn car had to help bankroll the debt from its development, the development for the X, and the development of the 3, how many hundreds of Supercharging stations ( yea, try to charge up your Bolt on a trip), and a gigantic ass battery factory on US soil.

No car on earth is profitable enough to support those costs
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

CaminoRacer

Well you might want buy and drive the Bolt for 2-3 years while you wait for the 3.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

Tave

I read the MT review. They said the Model S was the better car, but the Bolt did well-enough for 1/2 the price that they picked it to win.

If the Tesla 3 receives as well as the S it's going to smash the Bolt. We will see if Tesla can deliver.
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

12,000 RPM

Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 24, 2017, 04:38:53 PM
Well you might want buy and drive the Bolt for 2-3 years while you wait for the 3.
If the 3 is out by then. Maybe GM will have the sexy 3 competitor r0tor is pining for by then.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 24, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
If the 3 is out by then. Maybe GM will have the sexy 3 competitor r0tor is pining for by then.

You can buy a fuck load of gas for the $24k price difference between the Spark and Bolt... -shrug-
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

CaminoRacer

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 04:53:23 PM
You can buy a fuck load of gas for the $24k price difference between the Spark and Bolt... -shrug-

Just buy a Civic instead of a Model 3 then
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

r0tor

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on February 24, 2017, 04:38:12 PM
As far as the Model S profit crybabyness, the damn car had to help bankroll the debt from its development, the development for the X, and the development of the 3, how many hundreds of Supercharging stations ( yea, try to charge up your Bolt on a trip), and a gigantic ass battery factory on US soil.

No car on earth is profitable enough to support those costs

Now you're getting it ;).


r0tor

Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2017, 05:27:50 PM
Now you're getting it ;).



Lucky for them, the best selling and most profitable car is next in line
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed