Return of the Mazda Rotary!

Started by Payman, October 02, 2018, 08:57:31 AM

Payman


MX793

From a size standpoint, makes a lot of sense.  Power output is quite high for the physical envelope of the engine.  Fuel efficiency, though...
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

r0tor

BSFC of a rotary engine is better than a piston engine at high loads. 

It makes sense to use a rotary like this... Just really sad this looks like what will come from over a decade of development time since the Renesis 1.3L
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

12,000 RPM

A good idea. I wonder how they will sound. Range extenders need to be quiet as possible. Vibration will be nonexistent but hopefully they can keep the revs low
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Laconian

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 02, 2018, 11:34:16 AM
A good idea. I wonder how they will sound. Range extenders need to be quiet as possible. Vibration will be nonexistent but hopefully they can keep the revs low

Why is that important? The engine ought to be able to run at a wide range of RPMs depending on the load.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

mzziaz

Nice! Rotary hybrid drivetrain sounds great
Cuore Sportivo

12,000 RPM

Quote from: Laconian on October 02, 2018, 11:39:09 AM
Why is that important? The engine ought to be able to run at a wide range of RPMs depending on the load.
Most range extenders default to a pre-programmed efficient RPM and hang there. The load is decoupled from the car's speed (at least in the way an engine connected through a transmission is). I don't think too many people want a rotary zinging at 9000 RPM to charge the battery or add thrust....
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Laconian on October 02, 2018, 11:39:09 AM
Why is that important? The engine ought to be able to run at a wide range of RPMs depending on the load.

If its a true series hybrid (and the term range extender kinda implies that), won't matter. Speed of the ICE is decoupled from the vehicle speed anyways. it actually simplifies a lot of things greatly.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Laconian

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 02, 2018, 02:24:42 PM
If its a true series hybrid (and the term range extender kinda implies that), won't matter. Speed of the ICE is decoupled from the vehicle speed anyways. it actually simplifies a lot of things greatly.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that low RPM operation probably isn't what's desirable, because then you've the overhead of an off-idle engine without any of the power. Instead, you probably want it to run at max efficiency RPM (cruising and recharging a battery) or max power RPM (accelerating with a depleted battery).

The beauty of the rotary is that you could spin it at higher RPMs without the NVH penalty you would have on a two cylinder. So, no need to have the engine loaf - just turn it off.
Kia EV6 GT-Line / MX-5 RF 6MT

giant_mtb

Could you just put a little Honda generator in the trunk of your Tesla or Leaf with a cord going to the charge plug?  In a soundproof box with proper ventilation, that is.

r0tor

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 02, 2018, 02:23:06 PM
Most range extenders default to a pre-programmed efficient RPM and hang there. The load is decoupled from the car's speed (at least in the way an engine connected through a transmission is). I don't think too many people want a rotary zinging at 9000 RPM to charge the battery or add thrust....

A rotary zinging at 9k rpms is actually smoother then idle
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

MrH

#11
Quote from: giant_mtb on October 02, 2018, 05:05:41 PM
Could you just put a little Honda generator in the trunk of your Tesla or Leaf with a cord going to the charge plug?  In a soundproof box with proper ventilation, that is.

A little Honda generator is what, 5 hp?  Assuming no transmission losses (which isn't true), you're still using more than 5 hp to move a car.  You're going to deplete your battery faster than you charge.  But in theory, yes, you can do that.  That's essentially what the BMW i3 does with it's gasoline range extender.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: giant_mtb on October 02, 2018, 05:05:41 PM
Could you just put a little Honda generator in the trunk of your Tesla or Leaf with a cord going to the charge plug?  In a soundproof box with proper ventilation, that is.

Yes, and I've actually seen that done.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on October 02, 2018, 05:05:53 PM
A rotary zinging at 9k rpms is actually smoother then idle

Yes, but I would think that the greater volumetric efficiency and less
wear at lower speeds would make a slower engine a better choice.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: MrH on October 02, 2018, 05:08:42 PM
A little Honda generator is what, 5 hp?  Assuming no transmission losses (which isn't true), you're still using more than 5 hp to move a car.  You're going to deplete your battery faster than you charge.  But in theory, yes, you can do that.  That's essentially what the BMW i3 does with it's gasoline range extender.

The most common sizes are 2200 and 4500 watts.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

AutobahnSHO

Diesel would be better economy. Like locomotives.
Will

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on October 02, 2018, 05:18:29 PM
Yes, but I would think that the greater volumetric efficiency and less
wear at lower speeds would make a slower engine a better choice.

Volumetric efficiency and brake specific fuel consumption are best in a rotary in the upper portion of the power curve as gas leakage past the apex seals is minimized.

Fuel mileage was one of the keys of the 787B winning at LeMans
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on October 02, 2018, 05:48:34 PM
Volumetric efficiency and brake specific fuel consumption are best in a rotary in the upper portion of the power curve as gas leakage past the apex seals is minimized.

Fuel mileage was one of the keys of the 787B winning at LeMans


Yes, the upper portion, whatever you design that to be. I would doubt it would be as high as 9000 RPM.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on October 02, 2018, 10:17:32 AM
BSFC of a rotary engine is better than a piston engine at high loads. 

It makes sense to use a rotary like this... Just really sad this looks like what will come from over a decade of development time since the Renesis 1.3L

That's true for T/C'ed rotaries.  For N/A, it's the opposite.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: r0tor on October 02, 2018, 05:48:34 PM
Volumetric efficiency and brake specific fuel consumption are best in a rotary in the upper portion of the power curve as gas leakage past the apex seals is minimized.

Fuel mileage was one of the keys of the 787B winning at LeMans

The 787's fuel mileage was largely achieved by driver technique.  Mazda figured out the driving techniques that got the best fuel economy results and then they had to have their drivers basically re-learn how to drive (specifically throttle application technique) to maximize efficiency.  They also fitted the cars with fuel economy indicators to warn the drivers if they slipped back into old habits.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

12,000 RPM

Quote from: r0tor on October 02, 2018, 05:05:53 PM
A rotary zinging at 9k rpms is actually smoother then idle
Not quieter though.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MX793

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 02, 2018, 06:33:44 PM
Not quieter though.

Wankels are actually pretty quiet at higher RPMs with a good muffler on them.  Also bear in mind that the rotors themselves aren't spinning at 9000 RPM.  The eccentric shaft is spinning that fast, but the rotors are running at 1/3 that speed.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Morris Minor

Quote from: MrH on October 02, 2018, 05:08:42 PM
A little Honda generator is what, 5 hp?  Assuming no transmission losses (which isn't true), you're still using more than 5 hp to move a car.  You're going to deplete your battery faster than you charge.  But in theory, yes, you can do that.  That's essentially what the BMW i3 does with it's gasoline range extender.
Not sure if this has already been done, but I wonder if you could have the gasoline engine drive the wheels through some kind gearbox arrangement. That was you could cut out the generator and electric motor middlemen
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 03, 2018, 09:08:26 PM
Not sure if this has already been done, but I wonder if you could have the gasoline engine drive the wheels through some kind gearbox arrangement. That was you could cut out the generator and electric motor middlemen

:lol:
Will

SJ_GTI

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 03, 2018, 09:08:26 PM
Not sure if this has already been done, but I wonder if you could have the gasoline engine drive the wheels through some kind gearbox arrangement. That was you could cut out the generator and electric motor middlemen

:golfclap:

Payman

I've wondered for some time now if it was practical to mount 2 - 4 alternators on the roof of an electric car, covered with an aerodynamic shroud. The alternators have turbine impellers on the shafts (about 6" diameter) and the shroud has NACA style ducts to feed ram air to the impellers. The alternators feed AC current to an ECU/converter, which then charges the batteries while you drive.

I assume this has been long thought of, but for some reason not feasible?

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on October 03, 2018, 09:08:26 PM
Not sure if this has already been done, but I wonder if you could have the gasoline engine drive the wheels through some kind gearbox arrangement. That was you could cut out the generator and electric motor middlemen

:clap: :lol:
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

cawimmer430

"Wankel range extender..."

The last thing that I associate with a Wankel engine is fuel efficiency and range. Also, does this not mean more maintenance costs as Wankel engines require frequent oil fill-ups?
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MX793

Quote from: Rockraven on October 04, 2018, 06:34:29 AM
I've wondered for some time now if it was practical to mount 2 - 4 alternators on the roof of an electric car, covered with an aerodynamic shroud. The alternators have turbine impellers on the shafts (about 6" diameter) and the shroud has NACA style ducts to feed ram air to the impellers. The alternators feed AC current to an ECU/converter, which then charges the batteries while you drive.

I assume this has been long thought of, but for some reason not feasible?

The energy generated would be less than the power expended to overcome the aerodynamic drag of the turbines.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Soup DeVille

Quote from: cawimmer430 on October 04, 2018, 07:21:50 AM
"Wankel range extender..."

The last thing that I associate with a Wankel engine is fuel efficiency and range. Also, does this not mean more maintenance costs as Wankel engines require frequent oil fill-ups?

As noted, under high load and at a constant speed, they're quite efficient.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm29WZpBJc
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator