https://globalnews.ca/news/7534323/a-legal-first-b-c-man-accused-of-dangerous-driving-for-sleeping-in-self-driving-speeding-tesla/
I thought most of these self-drive Tesla enthusiasts were like free solo climbers or wingsuit jumpers. Sooner rather than later they're all Darwin Award recipients and dead. Two more haven't received their award yet.
You can't give people an "autopilot" feature and then tell them "but you still need to be alert and paying attention". These systems need to be banned from consumer autos until they are developed enough that the occupants needn't remain alert.
I imagine a driver being a lot more tense having to have their hands hover near the steering wheel in case the auto pilot makes a mistake. Just drive the god damned car.
Quote from: MX793 on December 28, 2020, 07:01:17 AM
You can't give people an "autopilot" feature and then tell them "but you still need to be alert and paying attention". These systems need to be banned from consumer autos until they are developed enough that the occupants needn't remain alert.
I keep telling my brother in law, a huge Tesla/Musk fanboy, that once someone famous or their kid gets killed because of Tesla autopilot, it'll get banned. It'll happen soon.
If I had auto pilot, I'd fall asleep. I need something to do.
Quote from: veeman on December 28, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
I keep telling my brother in law, a huge Tesla/Musk fanboy, that once someone famous or their kid gets killed because of Tesla autopilot, it'll get banned. It'll happen soon.
Tesla's problem is the level of scrutiny it's under.
Ten Mercedes-Benz owners could kill themselves falling asleep the wheel when using driver assist. Nobody would care.
One person dies at the wheel of a Tesla and the technology is outlawed (thereby subsequently killing 1,000 whom Autopilot would have saved :lol: :devil: )
It's not the Mercedes level driver assist which is crazy dangerous though. It's the Tesla car's ability to make a left hand turn by itself at a traffic light with the driver asleep that's nuts. Crazy this sort of level of self drive is allowed on public roads.
Quote from: veeman on December 28, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
I keep telling my brother in law, a huge Tesla/Musk fanboy, that once someone famous or their kid gets killed because of Tesla autopilot, it'll get banned. It'll happen soon.
It's happened countless times already.
https://www.tesladeaths.com/
Tesla is single handily the biggest force against self driving cars. Falsely advertising what it's capable of and pushing the boundaries when it's really not ready is the biggest danger to adoption by far.
I can't see Autopilot being banned by the government.
I can see it being renamed after a massive lawsuit. I'm surprised that hasn't already happened.
How is it not an autopilot? It takes over routine driving operations under the control of the driver.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 28, 2020, 01:59:58 PM
How is it not an autopilot? It takes over routine driving operations under the control of the driver.
Is there a definition of "autopilot" which says that a responsible driver needn't be available to take over in case something happens? Does the FAA let pilots sleep when autopilot is engaged? (Probably not - we have copilots for redundancy)
Right now it's limited pilot. Not full autopilot
Quote from: veeman on December 28, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
I keep telling my brother in law, a huge Tesla/Musk fanboy, that once someone famous or their kid gets killed because of Tesla autopilot, it'll get banned. It'll happen soon.
:hesaid:
Quote from: MX793 on December 28, 2020, 07:01:17 AM
You can't give people an "autopilot" feature and then tell them "but you still need to be alert and paying attention". These systems need to be banned from consumer autos until they are developed enough that the occupants needn't remain alert.
:hesaid:
Quote from: MX793 on December 28, 2020, 07:01:17 AM
You can't give people an "autopilot" feature and then tell them "but you still need to be alert and paying attention". These systems need to be banned from consumer autos until they are developed enough that the occupants needn't remain alert.
Actually, in this case, the car was doing pretty good on it's own, just happened to be going a bit faster than it should have. I would wonder that the car would be a bit more aware of the speed limit given the mapping information it has.
Am I the only person in this thread with actual experience with Autopilot?
First off, this person is an idiot. It's not like they just fell asleep driving, they actually reclined their seat and made a conscious decision to go to sleep. I can't imagine being this dumb. Maybe they were drunk or high?
Autopilot definitely requires supervision. There are certain situations it doesn't handle well. For example, when traveling in the right lane it doesn't handle cars merging onto the highway very well. AFAIK, it won't react to items in the road (or maybe it will and I'm just not brave enough to let it try). It sometimes brakes for no reason ("phantom braking").
Some observations:
1) When travelling in the second from the right lane (so it doesn't have to deal with people merging), it can be quite good and go a hundred miles without intervention.
2) Supervising it isn't stressful or tiresome in my experience. It's definitely less work than actually driving.
3) People have died on Autopilot, but the question is whether fewer people die on Autopilot than driving manually. Humans are terrible drivers, and there are whole classes of mistakes that humans make that Autopilot won't. Autopilot won't fall asleep, it won't drift out of its lane, and it won't zone out and rear end the car ahead. It's possible that Autopilot, while not perfect, is still safer than a human driver. Unfortunately, Tesla is the only group with the right data to determine this, and they have a strong incentive to spin it positively.
Quote from: Laconian on December 28, 2020, 06:32:22 PM
Is there a definition of "autopilot" which says that a responsible driver needn't be available to take over in case something happens? Does the FAA let pilots sleep when autopilot is engaged? (Probably not - we have copilots for redundancy)
In civil aviation there's a copilot. In general aviation it can be just you. In either case the pilot is flying the plane, whether the autopilot is engaged or not.
Quote from: Morris Minor on December 29, 2020, 10:48:16 AM
In civil aviation there's a copilot. In general aviation it can be just you. In either case the pilot is flying the plane, whether the autopilot is engaged or not.
Planes also don't operated within a dozen feet of each other in routine flight traffic. Split second reactions are not need to avoid colliding with other planes. There also aren't telephone poles, trees, guard rails, debris, wild animals, or pedestrians at 20,000+ feet that might need to be avoided
Quote from: afty on December 29, 2020, 10:14:58 AM
Some observations:
2) Supervising it isn't stressful or tiresome in my experience. It's definitely less work than actually driving.
Because you aren't devoting as much attention to driving the car? And if you aren't devoting as much attention to driving, do you believe your reaction times will be as quick if you need to assume manual control?
Quote3) ...Humans are terrible drivers, and there are whole classes of mistakes that humans make that Autopilot won't. Autopilot won't fall asleep, it won't drift out of its lane,
Except for the one that swerved right into a concrete barrier and killed it's owner.
Quoteand it won't zone out and rear end the car ahead.
Except the multiple instances of them plowing into the back of stopped emergency vehicles (to be fair, humans do this too, sometimes, usually when drunk at night) or the one that went broadside into a semi truck.
We don't need autopilot; we need better drivers education and retraining.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 30, 2020, 08:45:42 AM
We don't need autopilot; we need better drivers education and retraining.
I truly believe that many people do not have the ability to safely drive no matter how much training they get.
As for autopilot, I'm kind of torn. I never trust any electronic device to be 100% dependable, either in its performance or in its reliability, so I would never want to be in a car completely under control of any type of autopilot. However, I also think that at least 50% of people currently driving, an autopilot could do a much better job.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 30, 2020, 10:46:05 AM
I truly believe that many people do not have the ability to safely drive no matter how much training they get.
As for autopilot, I'm kind of torn. I never trust any electronic device to be 100% dependable, either in its performance or in its reliability, so I would never want to be in a car completely under control of any type of autopilot. However, I also think that at least 50% of people currently driving, an autopilot could do a much better job.
An actual thorough driving test would weed out most of the idiots.
There are numerous videos on YouTube of autopiloted boats colliding at high speed.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 30, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
An actual thorough driving test would weed out most of the idiots.
Even the standard driving test should weed them out, but I believe that many get their license through nefarious means.
Quote from: FoMoJo on December 30, 2020, 01:26:51 PM
Even the standard driving test should weed them out, but I believe that many get their license through nefarious means.
No need for fraud. The standards are painfully low here. You literally just drive around a block and then parallel park.
Quote from: Laconian on December 30, 2020, 01:30:53 PM
No need for fraud. The standards are painfully low here. You literally just drive around a block and then parallel park.
Parallel parking would fail a good many drivers I've seen. I've watched some that seemed not to know which way to turn the steering wheel when trying to back up.
Quote from: Laconian on December 28, 2020, 06:32:22 PM
Is there a definition of "autopilot" which says that a responsible driver needn't be available to take over in case something happens? Does the FAA let pilots sleep when autopilot is engaged? (Probably not - we have copilots for redundancy)
No, but people gonna people.
Tesla actually goes one step further though; the base level is "autopilot.". The top level is "full self drive."
A driver asleep with autopilot engaged is probably only as worse as an average american driver texting and finger fucking their infotainment
Quote from: r0tor on January 01, 2021, 12:07:53 PM
A driver asleep with autopilot engaged is probably only as worse as an average american driver texting and finger fucking their infotainment
Great point. It's safer to fall asleep at the wheel of an autopiloted car vs. one than one that isn't.
In the early days of seat belts resistance to them was strong, with specious arguments in the same vein as some above. Same with air bags, "They'll encourage reckless driving."
One day there'll be no steering wheels or controls taking up the valuable space needed for our naps and snoozes. :zzz:
Quote from: MX793 on December 28, 2020, 07:01:17 AM
You can't give people an "autopilot" feature and then tell them "but you still need to be alert and paying attention". These systems need to be banned from consumer autos until they are developed enough that the occupants needn't remain alert.
Bingo. Halfway in this realm is really dangerous. Most people aren't the brightest bulbs to begin with, even people who are nominally intelligent. We're all stupid in some way. My new car has halfway "self-driving" features that I don't utilize. I remain and alert and in control at all times, even when it tells me that it is controlling the car. Sometimes it dings and tells me to resume control. Imagine if I really weren't paying attention. In the time it took me to wake up and regain consciousness, the car could plow into something or go off the road.
Driving skills are like muscles. The less you use them, the more they atrophy. The same is true of brains. It's clear that for many people, both driving skills and brains are atrophying badly with all the technology people are using today.
Quote from: Morris Minor on January 02, 2021, 05:39:59 AM
Great point. It's safer to fall asleep at the wheel of an autopiloted car vs. one than one that isn't.
In the early days of seat belts resistance to them was strong, with specious arguments in the same vein as some above. Same with air bags, "They'll encourage reckless driving."
One day there'll be no steering wheels or controls taking up the valuable space needed for our naps and snoozes. :zzz:
Seatbelts or airbags may reduce injuries or save lives, but one would still have the burden of repairing their car if they should crash it. That's a significant financial incentive to continue to drive safely even with belts and bags. What incentive is there for people not tune out and let semi-automated systems take over? There have already been numerous documented crashes where the driver "thought the auto emergency braking" would stop the car for them so they put their attention on texting their friends.
These semi-autonomous aids need a consequence to encourage people to stay alert. Like if the emergency automated braking kicks in more than once inside of 30 minutes, the car starts squawking at you or goes into a limp mode that cuts top speed and disables most features.