Motorcycles.

Started by S204STi, July 21, 2008, 10:19:36 AM

S204STi

I figured I'd update my impressions about beginner bikes, after all the reading and research I have continuously performed, and after putting close to 1000mi on my EX500 since I bought it this spring.  I saved my original post below in quotes for reference to what I originally said on the topic.  But since that time I have learned a lot about what constitutes a good beginner's bike, which isn't necessarily dependent upon engine displacement.  You simply can't always judge a bike that way.  For example, the Ninja 650 (possibly the spiritual successor to the 500R/EX500) while displacing more than the ZX-6R makes less top end power but a fair amount of useful torque (around 48.5 ft/lbs of it).  Similarly the new Yamaha FZ6R (not to be confused with the FZ6 "Fazer") and Suzuki GSX650F, while sporting 4 cylinders and more displacement from motors that are basically descended from the YZF-R6 and GSX600R respectively, are less power (significantly, in the case of the Yamaha, not as much with the Suzuki).  

Also, when considering a bike there is a lot to be said for suspension geometry and riding triangle.  I still have a lot to learn about it, but generally bikes with steeper rake and less trail tend to be dart-ier, and potentially more prone to head shake in some circumstances.  Not necessarily a bad thing for a seasoned rider, but for a newbie it can be terrifying.  (I haven't experienced it yet... don't want to, either, to be honest).  Some of the beginner bikes on the market have very easy ergos and suspension geometry which allow a rider to quickly get comfortable with a bike that won't bite you as hard if you mess up.  You can still really mess up all on your own if you try hard enough, but at least the bike won't contribute much to that...

There are a ton or resources online, particularly at Cycle World's TWIST page, but I would just add that I would personally write the Buell Blast off my previous list, along with probably the GS500F too.  It's just too focused on beginners to be a good all-round bike.  Instead I would go for the Ninja 650R or a used 500R, a Suzuki Gladius or used SV650, or another nice option is the FZ6R.  All of them new are pretty cheap as bikes go, and used I bet you could get a good deal on most of these.  Expect to pay $4k-$5k on these bikes with low miles, I'd think.  The SV650 is generally considered to be one of the all-time greatest bikes ever, great for beginners or experienced riders alike (very readily modified thanks to broad aftermarket support).  The Kawasakis are pretty close in terms of performance.  Really it's personal preference.  The GSX650F might be a little more bike than a lot of beginners would want right away, but it seems to have the power and general sophistication to be a solid all-rounder as well, something that you can really grow into and won't bite you in the butt.  

A lot of this is just impressions I've had from reading, but as far as personal experience goes... I really think the 500R is a really solid first bike.  It's a bike that you would most likely be happy with for at least a few years, it's relatively light even if it isn't that powerful so it's performance in a straight line is stonking compared to most cars on the road.  Sure the 600/1000 supersports will leave you in their dust, but you're not ready for that sort of riding anyway after just a few months, so you just chug along confidently, knowing that you have enough power to EASILY keep up with traffic on the freeway, but not enough to likely put yourself in situations where you run out of talent before courage.  Plus my observed 50mpg in the city is very good.  The 650R and Gladius or SV650 get as good, or better in the case of the Suzies.  They tend to make more power on paper, but again they are tuned to be tractable down low do you don't have to rev the heck out of these motors to get along effortlessly.  

And really, buy a used bike.  You'll thank me when you lay it down.  I put mine down in traffic within the first couple of months.  It was the sort of wake up call I needed to keep me from becoming overconfident in my skill, so it didn't scare me off the bike.  If anything it made me a much better rider, so I am thankful for putting the bike down without hurting myself in the process.  But if it had been a brand new bike, I'd be really angry about it.  As it is, I was able to apply touch-up paint to cover it up slightly and just go on with life.  If you can do that with new stuff, fine, but I guess I'm just too possessive.

One final thing, really consider doing the MSF course.  It helped me a ton as a person without offroad experience to learn the basics to riding in a safe environment.  You can ride their bikes, all you have to bring is your own gear.  It allows you to get a feel without buying the bike first.  If you don't feel completely stoked about riding after that class, just give up the idea entirely.  Bikes aren't cheap, and you don't need another pretty toy cluttering your garage.  Also, take the followup course in a year.  I plan on taking it next spring.  More skills sharpening in a safe environment.  And read everything you can find about riding technique. 

I hope this is helpful to somebody...  happy riding!


Quote from: R-inge on July 21, 2008, 10:19:36 AM
So, it's about time for another Motorcycle thread.  I am registered for a motorcycle training course at the end of September, and I am doing a ton of research on possible rides.

Naturally as a beginner I won't be riding anything larger than 500cc right away. Even 500 might be a bit larger than I need...

But here are the three bikes I narrowed my choices down to. Whether I buy it new or not is still up for debate.  If I want a recent model I will have to pay close to MSRP even on the used market since starter bikes seem to hold value if they are in good condition.

In no particular order:

Buell Blast

Suzuki GS500F

Kawasaki Ninja 250R or its big brother Ninja 500R.

Personally I am a bit torn.  The Ninja 250R, from all reports, is not exactly the fastest thing on two wheels but should still walk away from traffic in most situations.  It would not be very effective however on the interstate, where it lacks serious passing power.  I could always work around that by not driving the interstate I suppose.  

One big thing is that the Ninja seems to have going for it is a very low seat, meaning you can put both feet down at a stop.  I think for a first time rider this would be very important...the last time I rode a motorcycle it was my dad's 400 dirt bike with a rather high seating position. I went to stop and laid it over because I wasn't prepared for the weight, plus I couldn't reach the ground to brace myself before it was already falling over.  The Ninja 250 is also the lightest bike in my group, at 330 or so lbs dry.

The Buell is a large displacement single but it doesn't seem particularly powerful- which for me is not a bad thing. 30 or so horsepower should be sufficient for a bike this size with me on it.  My only concern is that it doesn't seem to have the same low seat height of the Ninja 250, based on the one I saw in a parking lot this weekend. Upon review it turns out it might even have a lower seat height than the Ninja 250. It appears to lack good instrumentation with no tach, but it also seems to be low maintenance, being air cooled and with a belt drive rather than chain.  Plus 73mpg wouldn't hurt...  It is second lightest at abuot 360lbs dry.

The Suzuki GS500 is appealing because it seems like the kind of bike that I could learn to ride on but could continue to own for some time, since it would theoretically make enough power to satisfy even experienced riders, yet is lightweight and fundamentally less intense in nature than a 600+GSXR.  That same logic draws be towards the Ninja 500R.  The 500R however is even heavier than the roughly 400lbs GS500, at about 430lbs dry.

I have yet to even look at any of these bikes in person to see how well they would actually fit me.  I also need to find out what it would cost to insure these bikes.  If the 250s are significantly less expensive than the 500s, then that narrows it down rather quickly to the Ninja 250R.  But if not then I suppose I have a conundrum.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

S204STi

One question, the Buell site says the Blast has a 27.7 inch seat height; is that from the ground or from some other point of reference?  I seem to recall the last one I saw having a higher seat than that.

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: R-inge on July 21, 2008, 10:22:40 AM
One question, the Buell site says the Blast has a 27.7 inch seat height; is that from the ground or from some other point of reference?  I seem to recall the last one I saw having a higher seat than that.
Thats from the ground!
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

Gotta-Qik-C7

You also have to understand that the seat height is with no weight on the bike. I ride a GSXR (don't know the seat height) and have no problem putting both feet (I'm only 5'6") down. The rear spring setting also has some effect on seat height also. Mine is set a lil soft so that may help a little.
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

S204STi

Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on July 21, 2008, 10:24:08 AM
Thats from the ground!

Wow, that is quite low.  That makes a difference in the decision making...

S204STi

Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on July 21, 2008, 10:29:29 AM
You also have to understand that the seat height is with no weight on the bike. I ride a GSXR (don't know the seat height) and have no problem putting both feet (I'm only 5'6") down. The rear spring setting also has some effect on seat height also. Mine is set a lil soft so that may help a little.

Oh jeeze, so maybe that isn't such a big concern after all. Thanks!

Gotta-Qik-C7

Sport Rider has an excellent review on the GSX (they rode the 650 'tho) in this months Full Pin section. As you can see I'm biased but I'd take a long look at the Zook.

PS. don't worry about passing power. It'll have more than enough power to pass 99% of vehicles on the road. Just kicck it down a couple and off you go! 
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

S204STi

Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on July 21, 2008, 10:37:17 AM
Sport Rider has an excellent review on the GSX (they rode the 650 'tho) in this months Full Pin section. As you can see I'm biased but I'd take a long look at the Zook.

PS. don't worry about passing power. It'll have more than enough power to pass 99% of vehicles on the road. Just kicck it down a couple and off you go! 

Good to know, thanks!

Cobra93

Go test ride a Suzuki SV650 before you make your final decision. It's a little bigger than what you're looking at, but you'll quickly outgrow a smaller bike. Most motorcycle journalists think the SV650 is a great all around bike and one of the best values out there.

Raza

Champ has an SV650, I think.
First bike, too.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PM
It's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

S204STi

#10
Cool, I will check it out.  I certainly love the looks.

Fortunately, thanks to owning a home and having a clean record it will cost very little for me to insure a motorcycle I just found out. :praise:

Tave

I hear anything under 500cc is pretty cheap, and also a naked bike keeps insurance down.

A friend of mine just got a (slightly) used aprilia rsv mille. I hope he's alive in september. :lol:
As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
Depending on price, that could be a good deal.

hotrodalex

I'd get a 500R. Just remember to respect the bike and don't try anything above your skill and you'll be fine starting on that.

I don't really like the Blast, even though I'm a Buell guy. The Firebolt and 1125R are where it's at if you're getting a Buell (neither of which are good for beginners)

S204STi

Quote from: hotrodalex on July 21, 2008, 03:06:27 PM
I'd get a 500R. Just remember to respect the bike and don't try anything above your skill and you'll be fine starting on that.

I don't really like the Blast, even though I'm a Buell guy. The Firebolt and 1125R are where it's at if you're getting a Buell (neither of which are good for beginners)

Just out of curiosity, is your dislike based on riding the bike or something else?

MX793

Quote from: gotta-qik-z28 on July 21, 2008, 10:37:17 AM
Sport Rider has an excellent review on the GSX (they rode the 650 'tho) in this months Full Pin section. As you can see I'm biased but I'd take a long look at the Zook.

PS. don't worry about passing power. It'll have more than enough power to pass 99% of vehicles on the road. Just kicck it down a couple and off you go! 

The latest GSX650 is based on the latest Bandit family.  It's basically a 650 Bandit (which for whatever reason is not offered in the US) with GSX-R body work.  Looks like a sportbike, but with the more upright seating position of a standard or sport-tourer.  Personally, I think it's a good ergonomic layout for a beginner.  The motor is supposedly tuned for smooth delivery (the 1250 is very smooth and easy to use) with strong low and mid range presence, which is also beneficial to beginners.  Although there's a good amount of power there, which can sometimes land a newbie in trouble.  On the other hand, it also means you aren't as apt to outgrow the bike in one season of riding.

Biggest downside I could see to the GSX650 would be the weight.  I believe it rings in at around 480 lbs (which is within 20 lbs of a 1250 Bandit).  That said, if it's anything like the 1250 then it should feel and ride much lighter than it is (so long as you don't have to pick it up off the ground).  When I was bike shopping, I threw a leg over a 650 V-Strom and, getting the bike up off the sidestand and rocking the bike side to side as I sat on it in comparison to the Bandit, I would have sworn the two weighed about the same.  IIRC, the V-Strom is roughly 80 lbs lighter.

Another viable option would be the Kawi 650 Ninja.  Sporty looks, but also with a standard seating position.  It's faily light and has a pretty low seat from what I understand.  A bit less power than an SV650 or GSX, but still plenty for a new rider.  A bit pricier than the 500, though.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

BimmerM3

I wouldn't get a Ninja 250 just because all the prices I've seen recently are ridiculously high for what a Ninja 250 is. Kawasaki raised the MSRP for the 2008 model year (to $3499, I believe it was $2999 in 2007), and it's supposedly really hard to find one. I know I've seen more then one on eBay sell for over MSRP.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Motorcycles___2008-Kawasaki-Ninja-250EX-WOW-AREA-P-FULL-EXHAUST_W0QQitemZ120285083348QQddnZMotorcyclesQQddiZ2283QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120285083348&_trksid=p3756.m14.l1308

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Motorcycles___2008-08-Kawasaki-Ninja-250_W0QQitemZ280246790790QQddnZMotorcyclesQQddiZ2283QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280246790790&_trksid=p3756.m14.l1318

S204STi

Yeah they are Kawasaki's best selling bike yet for being so common they really hold onto their value.

Payman



Royal Enfield 500 cc Cafe Racer

Cobra93

Quote from: Payman on July 22, 2008, 09:10:06 AM


Royal Enfield 500 cc Cafe Racer

Japan must be in a sheer panic over the high tech motorcycle industry from India. :ohyeah:

280Z Turbo

That looks like it's from 1929.

Pancor

You may be a new rider, but don't get a bike that's too underpowered.  You'll probably be shocked at how quickly you'll outgrow a weak bike.  Plenty of mid-powered bikes are very docile and easy to handle, but'll still scream when you twist the throttle.  IMO, safety is all about self control and maturity, not how much power your bike has.   I started on my Dad's Yamaha 250, and a year later he owned a VMAX 1200 and I got the 650, because the 250 was just so underwhelming.  As well, it may be personal opinion, but I'm not a fan of any crotch-rocket type bike and view them as quite unpractical and hard to operate when compared to a naked/standard type bike.

Heres mine, just because I've never posted pics of it!:




Champ

#21
As Raza said I have a '01 SV650 - LOVE it.

The NEW 250 ninja is a fantastic bike.  I was looking at the old ones when I was searching, but their looks didn't appeal to me.  The new one looks great.

The best part about the 250's is they hold their value like crazy.  You could probably buy one in fall and sell it in spring for more money.

The hardest part about the new 250's is finding one.

I think the SV was a perfect choice, I'd look for one of those again in a heart beat.

Seating height shouldn't be a concern really if you are over 5'6", I can flatfoot the SV. I'm 5'11"

MX793

Quote from: Champ on July 22, 2008, 02:23:25 PM
As Raza said I have a '01 SV650 - LOVE it.

The NEW 250 ninja is a fantastic bike.  I was looking at the old ones when I was searching, but their looks didn't appeal to me.  The new one looks great.

The best part about the 250's is they hold their value like crazy.  You could probably buy one in fall and sell it in spring for more money.

The hardest part about the new 250's is finding one.

I think the SV was a perfect choice, I'd look for one of those again in a heart beat.

Seating height shouldn't be a concern really if you are over 5'6", I can flatfoot the SV. I'm 5'11"

IIRC, 1st gen SVs had a lower seat than the 2nd gen ('03+) bikes.  Second gen is on a slightly larger chassis (more in common with the SV1000).  But they are so narrow, especially at the front of the seat, that it's still pretty easy to touch the ground unless you're vertically challenged.  I have a 32" inseam and I don't recall having issues touching the ground on the newer SVs when I sat on one.  Although I also didn't find the seat to be particularly comfortable.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

S204STi

Cycle World has a current article up on the best starter bikes, and the SV650 was on the list, here.

I have to say, this made a big difference in my considerations.

A sub 400lbs bike able to hit 60 in 3.5 seconds and get more than twice the fuel economy of my WRX... wow.

They too mentioned that the seat wasn't great.

Also shocking, if you read about some of the other bikes in that article is that the Honda Nighthawk 250 gets 90mpg (though it seems like way too much of a beginner's/compromise bike for me).

S204STi

I gotta say, if the 883 Sportster wasn't nearly $7,000 I would kinda dig it.
http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=818

hotrodalex

Quote from: R-inge on July 21, 2008, 05:43:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, is your dislike based on riding the bike or something else?

It's a good bike, just not for me. I'm not fond of the looks or seating position (I like sportier positions). I don't know about you though, so I would say you should go take one for a spin and find out if you like it.

BimmerM3

Quote from: R-inge on July 22, 2008, 06:10:41 PM
Also shocking, if you read about some of the other bikes in that article is that the Honda Nighthawk 250 gets 90mpg (though it seems like way too much of a beginner's/compromise bike for me).

lol... 0-60 in 12.2 seconds. I don't want a bike slower than my car.

Champ

Quote from: R-inge on July 22, 2008, 06:10:41 PM
Cycle World has a current article up on the best starter bikes, and the SV650 was on the list, here.

I have to say, this made a big difference in my considerations.

A sub 400lbs bike able to hit 60 in 3.5 seconds and get more than twice the fuel economy of my WRX... wow.

They too mentioned that the seat wasn't great.
It's a damn good bike, there is a reason they sell well.

A lot of people use them for racing too, since they handle great and are cheap.

Gotta-Qik-C7

Quote from: BimmerM3 on July 22, 2008, 10:00:06 PM
lol... 0-60 in 12.2 seconds. I don't want a bike slower than my car.
+1,000
2014 C7 Vert, 2002 Silverado, 2005 Road Glide

Cobra93

#29
Quote from: R-inge on July 22, 2008, 09:41:30 PM
I gotta say, if the 883 Sportster wasn't nearly $7,000 I would kinda dig it.
http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=818
Even though it's got that iconic Harley styling, "real" Harley riders don't really consider it a real Harley, but more of a girl's bike. The performance is dreadful too, considering the displacement. I still think the SV650 is the bike for you. I'm even considering one myself for a second bike to go out and play on. I would also expect better mileage from the SV650 than 51 mpg. I've gotten 51 out of my GL1800 on some leisurely rides. Maybe Champ can weigh in here with some real world mileage numbers.