I know your comments will be negative, but Porsche gives me hope. :praise:
Porsche Thinks Its Synthetic Fuel Could Be As Green As Electric Propulsion
Porsche has been on the synthetic fuel train for a while now, and its latest assertion is that the technology will be as green as an electric vehicle when considered holistically.
We reported last week that the German manufacturer expects to start testing e-fuels as soon as 2022. Now, speaking to Evo Magazine, Frank Walliser, Porsche's vice president of motorsports and GT cars, has said that considered on a "wheel to well" perspective, the technology will be impressively green.
"Emissions are way better than current pump fuel, with less particulates and less NOx produced," said Walliser. "From a 'well to wheel' perspective – and you have to consider the well to wheel impact of all vehicles – this will be the same level of CO2 produced in the manufacture and use of an electric vehicle."
Indeed, EVs are emission-heavy to produce. Polestar revealed last year that its research indicated that, as a result of how hard batteries are to produce, its electric vehicles only start being greener than gas-powered cars after at least 30,000 miles.
As better technology progresses, the hope is that battery production will become greener. As demand rises, though, it will be hard to balance environmentalism with the need to quickly produce batteries.
Although Porsche is making the all-electric Taycan, its CEO, Oliver Blume, has previously said that up to 70% of the cars the company has ever built could run on e-fuel. That could allow owners of older Porsches to continue enjoying their rides in the future.
Porsche's e-fuel is made by combining hydrogen and carbon captured from the air to produce methanol. That is then brewed into a fuel that internal combustion engines can use. The company admits, though, that producing high volumes will be the work of many years.
Link: https://www.carscoops.com/2021/02/porsche-thinks-its-synthetic-fuel-could-be-as-green-as-electric-propulsion/
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 25, 2021, 08:08:34 AM
I know your comments will be negative, but Porsche gives me hope. :praise:
FWIW, I don't think the comments about synthetical fuels are negative...just very skeptical.
It would be nice if someone figured out a way to make such a thing, but the laws of physics makes it seem extraordinarily unlikely to be economical (because it will always take more energy to create the synthetic fuel than the synthetic fuel can generate).
Porsche isn't touting this as a mainstream gasoline replacement. They are touting this as a specialty product so that collectors of vintage cars will be able to continue to drive them in the future when all new cars are electric and gasoline is hard to come by. As a niche, specialty product produced in relatively small quantities, like leaded fuel today (still produced in low volume for those with vintage cars that require leaded fuel), this has some viability. It is not a viable alternative to electric power.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 25, 2021, 08:23:41 AM
FWIW, I don't think the comments about synthetical fuels are negative...just very skeptical.
It would be nice if someone figured out a way to make such a thing, but the laws of physics makes it seem extraordinarily unlikely to be economical (because it will always take more energy to create the synthetic fuel than the synthetic fuel can generate).
The excess energy from renewables could be used to produce synthetic fuels for a start. I think eFuels seriously have a place in the next decades as a transition fuel until either EVs become better or something better comes along.
Quote from: MX793 on February 25, 2021, 09:08:07 AM
Porsche isn't touting this as a mainstream gasoline replacement. They are touting this as a specialty product so that collectors of vintage cars will be able to continue to drive them in the future when all new cars are electric and gasoline is hard to come by. As a niche, specialty product produced in relatively small quantities, like leaded fuel today (still produced in low volume for those with vintage cars that require leaded fuel), this has some viability. It is not a viable alternative to electric power.
Yes, but there's still a solid case for eFuels in the automotive world. EVs are not going to take off in places like Central or South America, most of Asia and Africa. The internal combustion engine will be the dominant form of motorized transportation in those areas for decades to come.
Hence, more research and investments into efficient eFuel production should at least be considered. If it doesn't happen then what's the point of the Western World going "green" or "climate neutral" if the rest of the world won't play along?
I am no sure where the logic is in this.
Efuels are going to be expensive, You are not going to power a scooter with e fuels. With electric vehicles, the primary problem is the battery but the amount of innovation that is currently ongoing is working on that problem, and the probability of success is greater then cheap efuels.
Converting classics to run on ethanol will probably be cheaper than efuel
Quote from: Galaxy on February 28, 2021, 01:06:40 PM
I am no sure where the logic is in this.
Efuels are going to be expensive, You are not going to power a scooter with e fuels. With electric vehicles, the primary problem is the battery but the amount of innovation that is currently ongoing is working on that problem, and the probability of success is greater then cheap efuels.
I don't think cheap is part of the equation. It'll be a boutique fuel for those older vehicles which are either too expensive or too rare to convert to other fuels.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 28, 2021, 01:08:24 PM
Converting classics to run on ethanol will probably be cheaper than efuel
In Europe, with their multiplicity of rules which we don't have to deal with, that might not always be an option.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on February 26, 2021, 03:45:08 AM
Yes, but there's still a solid case for eFuels in the automotive world. EVs are not going to take off in places like Central or South America, most of Asia and Africa. The internal combustion engine will be the dominant form of motorized transportation in those areas for decades to come.
Hence, more research and investments into efficient eFuel production should at least be considered. If it doesn't happen then what's the point of the Western World going "green" or "climate neutral" if the rest of the world won't play along?
These synth fuels will be far too expensive to be a staple fuel for developing nations.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on February 28, 2021, 02:19:02 PM
I don't think cheap is part of the equation. It'll be a boutique fuel for those older vehicles which are either too expensive or too rare to convert to other fuels.
I was replying to Wimmers "The internal combustion engine will be the dominant form of motorized transportation in those areas for decades to come. Hence, more research and investments into efficient eFuel production should at least be considered. " As a fuel for classic cars, I think e fuels are a good solution.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 28, 2021, 04:36:19 PM
I was replying to Wimmers "The internal combustion engine will be the dominant form of motorized transportation in those areas for decades to come. Hence, more research and investments into efficient eFuel production should at least be considered. " As a fuel for classic cars, I think e fuels are a good solution.
The be clear though, I think what Wimmer was saying is that the ICE will be dominant (regardless of whether eFuels exist or not) so more research into eFuels makes sense.
Countries in places like Western Europe can outlaw petroleum fuel, but as long as petroleum fuel is cheaper and/or more practical than batteries in less developed areas they will keep using them. In that case I agree more research is a good idea (even if I very skeptical that it will ever be a practical solution).
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 01, 2021, 06:14:25 AM
The be clear though, I think what Wimmer was saying is that the ICE will be dominant (regardless of whether eFuels exist or not) so more research into eFuels makes sense.
Countries in places like Western Europe can outlaw petroleum fuel, but as long as petroleum fuel is cheaper and/or more practical than batteries in less developed areas they will keep using them. In that case I agree more research is a good idea (even if I very skeptical that it will ever be a practical solution).
^THIS^What's the point of the Western world going "green" if the majority of the world's underdeveloped and poor countries have other priorities than "saving the climate and planet"? The West can outlaw gasoline and Diesel cars and it won't make a difference on a global scale since the ICE will be the dominant form of transportation in non-Western nations. And they won't be using synthetic fuels since many of these nations are sitting on huge oil reserves themselves - which means cheap gasoline/Diesel.
And for that reason alone (as well as airplanes, heavy duty construction gear, military vehicles etc.) synthetic fuels should be taken under consideration.
These EV fetishes are not going to happen in the Western world overnight as well. It will take decades for the last ICE cars to be mustered out (unless they are outright banned). People here love their cars - ICE cars, not EVs. If the government bans the sale of new ICE cars, then people are going to hold on to their "old" ICE cars and keep them running for as long as possible. Also, the production of new EV cars is an ecological disaster. It makes perfect sense to keep our ICE cars for as long as possible and run them on eFuels. That's far better for the environment than producing millions of new EVs and scrapping ICE cars or shipping them off to Africa etc.
I would hope that the less developed nations, they seem to be primarily in the equatorial zones, make use of the abundance of renewable energy opportunities, solar panels, etc. and thus promote the usage of EVs. Countries like Morocco have invested in a lot of solar. It would be a transformational investment in, for example, India where there is so much development and so much pollution. Streets packed with E-auto-rickshaws would make a huge difference in the air quality as well as the noise.
Quote from: FoMoJo on March 01, 2021, 09:52:25 AM
I would hope that the less developed nations, they seem to be primarily in the equatorial zones, make use of the abundance of renewable energy opportunities, solar panels, etc. and thus promote the usage of EVs. Countries like Morocco have invested in a lot of solar. It would be a transformational investment in, for example, India where there is so much development and so much pollution. Streets packed with E-auto-rickshaws would make a huge difference in the air quality as well as the noise.
Exactly. The nations near the equator should be making use of solar power. But they will also need a reliable and always-on-call power source for the times when there is no sun. I'm all in favor of green energy, but it needs to be done rationally, intelligently and over time.
What is currently happening, at least in Europe, is that the EU[SSR] and some local governments are literally panicking and FORCING us into new forms of mobility at an unnatural speed - despite the infrastructure not being there.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 01, 2021, 09:44:29 AM
^THIS^
What's the point of the Western world going "green" if the majority of the world's underdeveloped and poor countries have other priorities than "saving the climate and planet"? The West can outlaw gasoline and Diesel cars and it won't make a difference on a global scale since the ICE will be the dominant form of transportation in non-Western nations. And they won't be using synthetic fuels since many of these nations are sitting on huge oil reserves themselves - which means cheap gasoline/Diesel.
And for that reason alone (as well as airplanes, heavy duty construction gear, military vehicles etc.) synthetic fuels should be taken under consideration.
These EV fetishes are not going to happen in the Western world overnight as well. It will take decades for the last ICE cars to be mustered out (unless they are outright banned). People here love their cars - ICE cars, not EVs. If the government bans the sale of new ICE cars, then people are going to hold on to their "old" ICE cars and keep them running for as long as possible. Also, the production of new EV cars is an ecological disaster. It makes perfect sense to keep our ICE cars for as long as possible and run them on eFuels. That's far better for the environment than producing millions of new EVs and scrapping ICE cars or shipping them off to Africa etc.
But electricity is cheaper then gasoline generally, if it is not then it is being subsidized. The current cost of the batteries is more the issue.
I think most people will switch over on their own accord if the range issue is solved. And with the newest Tesla batteries in the X and S it frankly is. It just needs to trickle down to lower priced cars.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 01, 2021, 03:28:02 PM
But electricity is cheaper then gasoline generally, if it is not then it is being subsidized. The current cost of the batteries is more the issue.
I think most people will switch over on their own accord if the range issue is solved. And with the newest Tesla batteries in the X and S it frankly is. It just needs to trickle down to lower priced cars.
Once batteries and charging become better, and EVs become affordable, then I can see a willingeness to switch over. But that won't happen anytime soon. The prices may drop, but the flexibility of EVs won't reach those of ICEs for a long time.
And there's still a market for eFuels. People will still be driving ICE cars in the next decade because they can't afford an EV for example. And for such people and their ICE car, eFuels are a viable option to drive CO2-Neutral.
Check this out.
https://t3n.de/news/e-fuels-siemens-baut-werk-wasserstoff-power-to-x-1363148/
If they can't afford an EV they probably can't afford e-fuels either.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 04, 2021, 10:48:38 AM
If they can't afford an EV they probably can't afford e-fuels either.
Gas here is already fluctuating between $6 and 7 per gallon. And it will continually rise thanks to that deranged Swedish kid, Merkel, Luisa Neubauer, the idiotic SPD and the eco terrorist Greens. The people who depend on their ICE to get around will be able to afford the fuel since they have no choice. They will have to save money somewhere else so that they can buy the fuel. It's already happening at this very moment thanks to the idiotic CO2 tax we received this year. For days now gasoline in my area has been fluctuating between 1.50 and 1.55 per liter. Shell V-Power Racing is even sold at 1.77/1.80 Euros per liter.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 04, 2021, 04:28:18 PM
Gas here is already fluctuating between $6 and 7 per gallon. And it will continually rise thanks to that deranged Swedish kid, Merkel, Luisa Neubauer, the idiotic SPD and the eco terrorist Greens. The people who depend on their ICE to get around will be able to afford the fuel since they have no choice. They will have to save money somewhere else so that they can buy the fuel. It's already happening at this very moment thanks to the idiotic CO2 tax we received this year. For days now gasoline in my area has been fluctuating between 1.50 and 1.55 per liter. Shell V-Power Racing is even sold at 1.77/1.80 Euros per liter.
If you think $6 per gallon for regular petrol is bad, wait until you see what synthetic fuels cost.
Quote from: MX793 on March 04, 2021, 04:45:59 PM
If you think $6 per gallon for regular petrol is bad, wait until you see what synthetic fuels cost.
My point was the high price of eFuels won't really matter much given how the price of fossil fuel-derived gasoline/Diesel will soon approach 2/3 Euros per liter. Most experts say that if eFuels were available on the market today they'd be priced at a little over 2 Euros per liter. Out of habit I am now spending less so that I have more money available to fill up my car.
The good news is that certain political parties, organizations and companies in Germany are realizing that the ICE is still needed and therefore eFuels. The FDP and AfD and parts of the CDU/CSU are in support of them. Last week there was an interesting livestream discussion between politicians of the FDP (Christian Lindner), CSU (Dr. Michael Haberland), Hildegard Müller (president of the VDA [Association of the German Automotive Industry), Lutz Leif Linden (VDA) and Manfred Schön (BMW works council chief) had an interesting livestream discussion on the planned EURO 7 emission act as well as the necessity for eFuels. In fact this was the second livestream to make it clear how important eFuels are.
Link (in German) in the next post. Might be interesting for
Galaxy.
https://www.facebook.com/KeinKFZDieselverbotinDeutschland/videos/285109153006187/?__tn__=%2CO-R
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 05, 2021, 03:51:53 AM
My point was the high price of eFuels won't really matter much given how the price of fossil fuel-derived gasoline/Diesel will soon approach 2/3 Euros per liter. Most experts say that if eFuels were available on the market today they'd be priced at a little over 2 Euros per liter. Out of habit I am now spending less so that I have more money available to fill up my car.
The good news is that certain political parties, organizations and companies in Germany are realizing that the ICE is still needed and therefore eFuels. The FDP and AfD and parts of the CDU/CSU are in support of them. Last week there was an interesting livestream discussion between politicians of the FDP (Christian Lindner), CSU (Dr. Michael Haberland), Hildegard Müller (president of the VDA [Association of the German Automotive Industry), Lutz Leif Linden (VDA) and Manfred Schön (BMW works council chief) had an interesting livestream discussion on the planned EURO 7 emission act as well as the necessity for eFuels. In fact this was the second livestream to make it clear how important eFuels are.
Link (in German) in the next post. Might be interesting for Galaxy.
German and European fuel prices are artificially inflated by taxes that are intended to encourage people to use less fuel.
Specialty fuels like race fuel cost upwards of 5x what regular pump gas costs. Synthesized hydrocarbon fuels will cost even more.
Germany wants to wean itself off Russia too, right? AFAIK Russia has the EU in a tight spot because of thejr dependence on its oil.
Quote from: MX793 on March 05, 2021, 05:46:19 AM
German and European fuel prices are artificially inflated by taxes that are intended to encourage people to use less fuel.
Specialty fuels like race fuel cost upwards of 5x what regular pump gas costs. Synthesized hydrocarbon fuels will cost even more.
Economies of scale. We will see what happens but it's good that more and more politicians and organizations are rallying for eFuels.
Plus, remember, it's better to drive an existing (already-produced) vehicle than one which still needs to be produced. Existing ICE cars and eFuels are sustainable.
Quote from: Laconian on March 05, 2021, 10:22:27 AM
Germany wants to wean itself off Russia too, right? AFAIK Russia has the EU in a tight spot because of thejr dependence on its oil.
Our idiot politicians talk about being energy self-sufficient and think that if the German car industry produces EVs, we will "not depend on imports to produce them". No lie. They are just that stupid. They don't realize that Germany lacks the natural resources (Germany is very poor in natural resources except for various forms of coal) which are needed for the production of batteries etc.
Also, our communist Dear Leader and Eternal Dicta.... I mean Chancellor Kim Jong Merkel has forced the exit out of atomic energy and also coal power meaning we don't have enough energy and...buy... for a lot of money, French and Czech atomic energy and Polish brown coal power. Our dumb politicians think that solar and wind can sustain the growing energy needs of an industrial nation like Germany. Here, our remaining coal power plants constantly need to be reactivated in order to prevent a blackout. :lol:
Link (German): https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article227601671/Kohle-Ausstieg-Der-Fehlstart-wird-fuer-Uniper-zum-Geschaeftsmodell.html
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2021, 02:20:40 AM
Economies of scale. We will see what happens but it's good that more and more politicians and organizations are rallying for eFuels.
Plus, remember, it's better to drive an existing (already-produced) vehicle than one which still needs to be produced. Existing ICE cars and eFuels are sustainable.
As we've already covered, the energy required to produce this in large scale is beyond our capacity to generate. Short of a transformational breakthrough in power generation, you won't be able to produce this in large quantities on par with gasoline or diesel today.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2021, 02:25:20 AM
They don't realize that Germany lacks the natural resources (Germany is very poor in natural resources except for various forms of coal) which are needed for the production of batteries etc.
Germany also lacks the natural resources needed for the production of gasoline, and internal combustion engines. :huh: Scandinavia does have the resources to produce batteries, and frankly I would rather buy from them then Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela.
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Also, our communist Dear Leader and Eternal Dicta.... I mean Chancellor Kim Jong Merkel has forced the exit out of atomic energy
Our PhD in nuclear physics Chancellor forced the exit from nuclear power.
Personally I would have rather retired the coal plants first, and then the nuclear ones but oh well.
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and also coal power meaning we don't have enough energy and...buy... for a lot of money, French and Czech atomic energy and Polish brown coal power. Our dumb politicians think that solar and wind can sustain the growing energy needs of an industrial nation like Germany. Here, our remaining coal power plants constantly need to be reactivated in order to prevent a blackout. :lol:
And you are conveniently forgetting that Germany often exports more power then it imports, and German wind and solar has been used several times to prevent a grid collapse in France, where they mostly heat via electricity from nuclear power. Germany has been a net exporter of electricity for several years. Germany's problem is that most of the energy gets produced in the north, but most of the consumption is in the south, and the infrastructure is lacking to transport it. If anything this is an argument for a better EU wide grid.
Quote from: MX793 on March 06, 2021, 04:59:50 AM
As we've already covered, the energy required to produce this in large scale is beyond our capacity to generate. Short of a transformational breakthrough in power generation, you won't be able to produce this in large quantities on par with gasoline or diesel today.
I hear you and it makes sense, BUT... I am a wishful thinker. :tounge:
Still, and in all seriousness, there has to be a market for eFuels. If the rest of the world will continue to use fossil fuels for airplanes, ships, heavy duty and military applications then what is the point of the small Western World going "green"? Seems like a complete waste of time.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 06, 2021, 06:51:50 AMOur PhD in nuclear physics Chancellor forced the exit from nuclear power.
I believe Merkel's doctorate work was checked by Oxford University recently and they called it trash. :lol:
Quote from: Galaxy on March 06, 2021, 06:51:50 AMPersonally I would have rather retired the coal plants first, and then the nuclear ones but oh well.
The entire
Energiewende to me comes across as poorly managed and planned. Solar and wind cannot sustain our energy needs, but Merkel forces an exit of both nuclear and coal at the same time without a serious backup alternative. If at the end of September we're gonna get Grün-Rot-Rot instead Schwarz-Grün, then we're truly screwed on the energy front. Blackouts are preprogrammed...
Quote from: Galaxy on March 06, 2021, 06:51:50 AMAnd you are conveniently forgetting that Germany often exports more power then it imports, and German wind and solar has been used several times to prevent a grid collapse in France, where they mostly heat via electricity from nuclear power. Germany has been a net exporter of electricity for several years. Germany's problem is that most of the energy gets produced in the north, but most of the consumption is in the south, and the infrastructure is lacking to transport it. If anything this is an argument for a better EU wide grid.
Yes, those times when solar and wind produce excess energy should be used to produce hydrogen and eFuels instead of PAYING our neighbors to accept our excess electricity production. Like I said, the
Energiewende is so poorly planned it's embarrassing.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/worlds-dumbest-energy-policy-11548807424 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/worlds-dumbest-energy-policy-11548807424)
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 06, 2021, 11:33:19 AM
I believe Merkel's doctorate work was checked by Oxford University recently and they called it trash. :lol:
Did some quick googling and did not find anything problematic regarding her PhD. Since it is a given hat her political rivals will be paying people to go over her work with a microscope I would say she is safe. Of course for others it was a problem. The most famous example being Secretary of Defence Karl-Theodore zu Guttenberg.
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The entire Energiewende to me comes across as poorly managed and planned. Solar and wind cannot sustain our energy needs, but Merkel forces an exit of both nuclear and coal at the same time without a serious backup alternative. If at the end of September we're gonna get Grün-Rot-Rot instead Schwarz-Grün, then we're truly screwed on the energy front. Blackouts are preprogrammed...
Yes, those times when solar and wind produce excess energy should be used to produce hydrogen and eFuels instead of PAYING our neighbors to accept our excess electricity production. Like I said, the Energiewende is so poorly planned it's embarrassing.
Could it be planned better? Yes. However the question is how much planning the state should be doing anyways. Overall many important goals have been reached, such as building the underwater cables to Norway, to store energy. Nuclear power is not that good really as a complement to renewables, since they do not react fast enough.
I do not really think Blackouts are going to be that much of a concern, renewables are actually quite predictable.
https://www.tennet.eu/de/e-insights/energiewende/day-ahead-prognose-tatsaechliche-erzeugung-windenergie/
Besides , one great benefit of the Energiewende is that we are going to become more decentralized, with many people creating and storing their own energy.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 07, 2021, 06:26:56 PM
Did some quick googling and did not find anything problematic regarding her PhD. Since it is a given hat her political rivals will be paying people to go over her work with a microscope I would say she is safe. Of course for others it was a problem. The most famous example being Secretary of Defence Karl-Theodore zu Guttenberg.
It's interesting, I also searched for it and it's gone - almost as if Merkel and her corrupt entourage pulled some strings to get rid of this news on the Internet.
But when you see how this country is run it does not surprise me anymore. Franziska Giffey of the SPD can continue to run for major of Berlin despite having plagiarized numerous passages in her dissertation...
Quote from: Galaxy on March 07, 2021, 06:26:56 PMBesides , one great benefit of the Energiewende is that we are going to become more decentralized, with many people creating and storing their own energy.
I agree that this is the way to go. Every bit of decentralized and regenerative energy helps here and there. However, there is also so much bureaucratic BS being put in the way of preventing this. Years ago when my parents wanted to place solar panels on the roof of their home they were denied this by the local authorities because of two reasons: 1) it would hurt the visual appearance of the historic
Altstadt and 2) apparently it was calculated that the neighboring homes would block most of the sun rays that would fall on these solar panels - which is weird since our roof is higher than those of our two neighbors.