Tesla

Started by SJ_GTI, February 23, 2017, 07:11:02 AM

Morris Minor

One of Tesla's huge advantages is that it's not shackled to legacy parts bins. As evidenced by the the ID4's design. Its engineers were palpably bound by accountants, & a risk averse traditional corporate culture.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

afty

https://www.motor1.com/news/507229/tesla-quarter-mile-production-record/

"According to the [unconfirmed] report, a Model S Plaid made a 9.23-second quarter-mile pass at Autoclub Famoso Raceway in Bakersfield, California. The speed across the line was 152.16 mph, but nothing else is known about the run or the car."   :devil:

CaminoRacer

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 15, 2021, 05:30:08 AM
One of Tesla's huge advantages is that it's not shackled to legacy parts bins. As evidenced by the the ID4's design. Its engineers were palpably bound by accountants, & a risk averse traditional corporate culture.

But that's how they manage to keep costs down. Tesla doesn't benefit from that. Instead they're "forced" to develop a 1 piece casting of the entire rear unibody or whatever, which may or may not be a good thing.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

r0tor

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 14, 2021, 06:19:01 PM
I have concerns.

Die castings are notoriously brittle; they're fine up to a point, but they don't bend (much). They crack.

They don't crack if done correctly and have control over the weld lines from the material flow... Wheels take the most abuse in a car and tend to do pretty well.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on May 15, 2021, 11:12:50 AM
They don't crack if done correctly and have control over the weld lines from the material flow... Wheels take the most abuse in a car and tend to do pretty well.

And material flow becomes harder to ensure in larger and thinner castings; which this is both.

Its also a piece which is under a lot of stress in multiple directions.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

r0tor

CAD simulations for casting are amazing now... I don't doubt it can be done well
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Soup DeVille

Quote from: r0tor on May 15, 2021, 11:24:59 AM
CAD simulations for casting are amazing now... I don't doubt it can be done well

CAD simulations are one thing, actually making the part is quite another.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MrH

If it was actually a good idea, you don't think the other OEMs would be pushing for this? There are certain areas Tesla has an advantage (basically just software). Casting is not one of them. VWAG has more casting engineers than Tesla probably has total engineers.

The giga cast is running outdoors for fucking sake! This man has no manufacturing credibility. He's an effective cult leader, not a manufacturing genius.

Remember the alien dreadnaught? He was moving cars with forklifts and hand assembling them in tents.
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Morris Minor

Quote from: MrH on May 15, 2021, 12:15:05 PM
If it was actually a good idea, you don't think the other OEMs would be pushing for this? There are certain areas Tesla has an advantage (basically just software). Casting is not one of them. VWAG has more casting engineers than Tesla probably has total engineers.

The giga cast is running outdoors for fucking sake! This man has no manufacturing credibility. He's an effective cult leader, not a manufacturing genius.

Remember the alien dreadnaught? He was moving cars with forklifts and hand assembling them in tents.
Wow.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MrH

#4269
There are reddit threads of anonymous engineers within the facility.  It's laugh out loud levels of crazy.  Massive, massive scrap numbers.  The bigger the casting, the harder it is to get material flow correct and minimal porosity.  And as you go bigger, you need a higher and higher clamping force and injection force.  I have a lot more experience with injection molding than casting, but a lot of the same principles apply.  The rumor is they can't even maintain enough clamping force, so you're getting molten metal spilling out and catching things on fires.  There have been tons of fires at the facility :lol:  This is probably why it's sitting outside.  There are aerial shots of the plant with just tons of scrap sitting around.  Pretty amazing stuff.

Then there's the whole reparability of doing something like a single casting for the rear of a car... is a rear end collision going to total this thing?  Who knows.  Tesla is the worst OEM I've worked with in terms of spare part planning.

Keep in mind, this is the same company with the infamous whompy wheel syndrome from suspension members snapping.  Granted, they are buying these parts, not producing internally, but there is not a lot of credibility here when it comes to design and material.
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

FoMoJo

It looks pretty impressive :huh:...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr4S0QlGVwQ

This ones in Shanghai.
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

The repairability question is a big one I didn't even think of before.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Morris Minor

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 15, 2021, 02:24:40 PM
It looks pretty impressive :huh: ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr4S0QlGVwQ

This ones in Shanghai.
Looks like it's indoors. All this time I'd been thinking minimizing the number of components, increasing stiffness & lightness, and simplifying assembly is inferior. Now we need to get away from this silly idea of casting cylinders in single blocks.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MrH

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2021, 02:40:48 PM
The repairability question is a big one I didn't even think of before.

Don't worry, neither did Elon.
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Soup DeVille

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 15, 2021, 03:20:47 PM
Looks like it's indoors. All this time I'd been thinking minimizing the number of components, increasing stiffness & lightness, and simplifying assembly is inferior. Now we need to get away from this silly idea of casting cylinders in single blocks.


Chassis flex; if an engine block flexes you're pretty much fucked. That's why they work as castings; they are rigid enough that they don't flex, because if they do, they'll crack.

So the challenge is either to design a chassis that is so stiff it never flexes, or to find a metallurgy that will allow greater flex than we currently can.

Plus, this is an extremely challenging mold process at this size.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Morris Minor

I'm just not seeing the arguments against this being a worthy & laudable goal.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 15, 2021, 07:34:43 PM
I'm just not seeing the arguments against this being a worthy & laudable goal.

I'm just pointing out the challenges it faces; and I'm unconvinced it will in the end be a better product for the consumer.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

GoCougs

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2021, 02:40:48 PM
The repairability question is a big one I didn't even think of before.

Current unit-body construction is not very repairable either really - a mild jolt in the right spot(s) totals many a modern vehicle. Sounds like it might be more cost effective too by sidestepping the fasteners, welding and adhesives of the typical unit-body chassis. Cars started going unit-body in mass (started with Mopar mostly) in the '60s and was mostly all there by the end of the '70s and still there today. Perhaps this is the next evolution? I mean, when a corporation operates free of pecuniary, shareholder, SEC and LE oversight, Jesus, anything's possible. Maybe they get this right eventually?

Morris Minor

It would not surprise me if Tesla bought IDRA Group. Musk loves vertical integration (see Starlink phased array dishes.) Doing this would have the side benefit of making life difficult for the competition.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

MrH

Quote from: Morris Minor on May 17, 2021, 05:37:35 AM
It would not surprise me if Tesla bought IDRA Group. Musk loves vertical integration (see Starlink phased array dishes.) Doing this would have the side benefit of making life difficult for the competition.

Lol, that is Tesla's MO.  Greatly oversimplify everything, try to vertical integrate it, crash and burn, rinse and repeat.
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Morris Minor

Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2021, 10:02:37 AM
Lol, that is Tesla's MO.  Greatly oversimplify everything, try to vertical integrate it, crash and burn, rinse and repeat.
It works for Apple. The incumbent manufacturers have yet to understand that EVs are computers on wheels. They still think EVs are collections of "because we've always it this way" parts bin components with irritating computer thingies that somehow make it all work.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤

FoMoJo

Jay Leno Breaks Land-Speed Record Driving Tesla Model S Plaid

A bit misstated, but...

Quote
Jay Leno just set a new land-speed record, and he has Elon Musk to thank for it.

The former "Tonight Show" host was recording a segment for an upcoming edition of his CNBC show "Jay Leno's Garage" by taking a Tesla Model S Plaid out for a spin on a racetrack in an attempt to break the quarter-mile land-speed record for a production model.

"I'll tell you what I did. I went up to Famoso Dragway in Bakersfield," Leno said when he called into the "Spike's Car Radio" podcast. "And the Tesla Plaid... I drove by, and the NHRA guy was there to make it official. It turned a 9.247, at 152 MPH,"

Speaking with CNBC's Shepard Smith (above), Leno confirmed that the Tesla broke the existing record, putting the electric vehicle in some pretty rarified company.
.....
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

afty

Quote from: FoMoJo on June 12, 2021, 12:04:05 PM
Jay Leno Breaks Land-Speed Record Driving Tesla Model S Plaid

A bit misstated, but...


For context, here is the complete list of sub-10-second production cars:

1. Tesla Model S Plaid 9.247
2. Bugatti Chiron Sport 9.4
3. Porsche 918 Spyder 9.7
4. McLaren P1 9.8
5. Bugatti Veyron Super Sport 9.9 (w/o rollout)
6. McLaren 720S 9.9

That's some good company to be in!

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration#By_1/4_mile_or_400_meter_times_(11_seconds_or_less)%5Bii%5D)

GoCougs

Motortrend has a Model S Plaid drag strip test up today: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review/

In short, they got 0-60 in 2.0 sec and 1/4 mile in 9.25 sec @ 153 mph. Note that this is quicker than any street legal super bike on sale today by a huge margin (they're usually at 9.50 - 9.75 @ 145 - 150 mph, so like upwards of 5-10 car lengths).

There's even more drama to put the car into max acceleration mode, but no surprise. So, legit acceleration (i.e., without waiting for many minutes for battery prep - just stab the throttle and go) will be slower by a lot, but no mention of what that is.

Also lots of drama from Tesla handlers too.

The yoke thing is an atrocity, but in the least interior, ergonomics and NVH have been improved.

JWC

Reading how the Tesla Plaid launches from a dead stop, reminded me of my ride in a Sunbeam Tiger back in 1977. When the owner said "watch this" and floored it from a dead stop on a San Mateo street, I thought I'd gotten whiplash.

r0tor

#4285
Quote from: GoCougs on June 17, 2021, 11:24:35 AM
Motortrend has a Model S Plaid drag strip test up today: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review/

In short, they got 0-60 in 2.0 sec and 1/4 mile in 9.25 sec @ 153 mph. Note that this is quicker than any street legal super bike on sale today by a huge margin (they're usually at 9.50 - 9.75 @ 145 - 150 mph, so like upwards of 5-10 car lengths).

There's even more drama to put the car into max acceleration mode, but no surprise. So, legit acceleration (i.e., without waiting for many minutes for battery prep - just stab the throttle and go) will be slower by a lot, but no mention of what that is.

Also lots of drama from Tesla handlers too.

The yoke thing is an atrocity, but in the least interior, ergonomics and NVH have been improved.

The prep procedure is no different then anyone going to a drag strip with an ICE car and chilling down intakes/intercoolers before a run.

Nobody even in modified cars pulls off the road, up to a drag strip with zero time prepping  - and does a 9 sec run.
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

CaminoRacer

Quote from: r0tor on June 17, 2021, 12:53:23 PM
The prep procedure is no different then anyone going to a drag strip with an ICE car and chilling down intakes/intercoolers before a run.

Nobody even in modified cars pulls off the road, up to a drag strip with zero time prepping  - and does a 9 sec run.

True. Or they have to prep the nitrous bottle.
2020 BMW 330i, 1969 El Camino, 2017 Bolt EV

GoCougs

Quote from: r0tor on June 17, 2021, 12:53:23 PM
The prep procedure is no different then anyone going to a drag strip with an ICE car and chilling down intakes/intercoolers before a run.

Nobody even in modified cars pulls off the road, up to a drag strip with zero time prepping  - and does a 9 sec run.

The (scant few) factory cars that can dip into the 9s (or still run insanely quick low 10s) need no such extended prep. Plus, said ICE prep is to improve performance, not lessen to some extent the damage caused by each Ludacris/Plaid launch. So, insanely quick, but still with an * (i.e., EV equivalency is many years and a "Mr. Fusion" invention away):


r0tor

Quote from: GoCougs on June 17, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
The (scant few) factory cars that can dip into the 9s (or still run insanely quick low 10s) need no such extended prep. Plus, said ICE prep is to improve performance, not lessen to some extent the damage caused by each Ludacris/Plaid launch. So, insanely quick, but still with an * (i.e., EV equivalency is many years and a "Mr. Fusion" invention away):



Oh right... precooling the battery pack is completely different then icing down an intercooler.  Or something like the dodge demon where you get to swap ecu's and front wheels or s GT500 that has a special full power key.  Or the GTR that had the legendary launch control counter or Porsche that logs over rev events.  A Veyron that could only reach full speed in an aero mode that prevents you from turning and requiring you to x-ray your tires to ensure they won't blow up...

Yawn
2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee No Speed -- 2004 Mazda RX8 6 speed -- 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia All Speed

Laconian

Quote from: r0tor on June 17, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
requiring you to x-ray your tires to ensure they won't blow up...

No way... I haven't heard that one before.
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