EVs

[SJ_GTI]

This is the type of EV I want introduced in the US:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1132318_vw-id-x-concept-teases-electric-hot-hatch

[ChrisV]

$40k is for the fleet model - the "customer facing" model starts at $52k.

Best case range is 300 miles, so normal driving is more like 225-250 miles, when taking into account temperature extremes, real freeway speeds, and being mindful of not running the battery to 0%. Towing at 10,000 lbs is bound to be 125 miles or less.

Like the Mustang Mach E and Bolt, the range is probably UNDER STATED. Not OVER STATED. My Bolt is rated at 259 miles, but regularly sees, in real world use, 285-330 miles. Even in the winter, at highway speeds, we saw 220 miles. Most of these F150s wont be used for towing OR highway use. They will be used, as current F150 crew cabs are, for contractors, landscapers and commuters. All of which will be well under the rated range. And the range will probably be more than the rated range for them as the EPA test (and subsequent stated range) does not factor in the amount of regen you see in suburban and stop and go driving. I can see you have little real world experience with EVs.

Sorta interesting, but yet another EV that 90+% of people can't legit afford and that is WAY less usable than an IC-powered F-150.

Actually just as usable as the uses most F150 buyers put their trucks to And just about the same price as a equally equipped and powerful ICE F150.

I predict that like the Bolt, Mustang EV, and any other EV that isn't a Tesla, few will actually be sold.

The Mustang and the F150 Lightning are already selling out. The first year's production of the Mach E has already been spoken for and 20,000 pre-orders for the F150 Lightning had been done in the first 12 hours. You really need to buy a clue, Cougs. Oh, and the Bolt sold all they could make. And the last three years they were sold a profit even at the $25k price point that most of them were sold at for the last year and a half.

[ChrisV]

This is the type of EV I want introduced in the US:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1132318_vw-id-x-concept-teases-electric-hot-hatch

yassss. I'd love that!

Actually, what I want is my Bolt's 200hp/266lb ft drivetrain in my MINI roadster. I want a convertible sports car EV.

[CaminoRacer]

Guesstimate for the Lightning battery capacity is 115 kwh and 150 kwh for the extended range.

Twice as big as a Bolt/Kona/similar for the same range, to give an idea on the efficiencies.

[GoCougs]

Like the Mustang Mach E and Bolt, the range is probably UNDER STATED. Not OVER STATED. My Bolt is rated at 259 miles, but regularly sees, in real world use, 285-330 miles. Even in the winter, at highway speeds, we saw 220 miles. Most of these F150s wont be used for towing OR highway use. They will be used, as current F150 crew cabs are, for contractors, landscapers and commuters. All of which will be well under the rated range. And the range will probably be more than the rated range for them as the EPA test (and subsequent stated range) does not factor in the amount of regen you see in suburban and stop and go driving. I can see you have little real world experience with EVs.

Actually just as usable as the uses most F150 buyers put their trucks to And just about the same price as a equally equipped and powerful ICE F150.

Maybe, but EVs regularly underperform on range, especially outside of ideal environmental conditions. Most trucks are not for fleet use, and those that are, aren't terribly useful with a range of 125 miles or less (when towing, as many fleet trucks do).

The Mustang and the F150 Lightning are already selling out. The first year's production of the Mach E has already been spoken for and 20,000 pre-orders for the F150 Lightning had been done in the first 12 hours. You really need to buy a clue, Cougs. Oh, and the Bolt sold all they could make. And the last three years they were sold a profit even at the $25k price point that most of them were sold at for the last year and a half.

The fact is to date no EV sells worth a damn that isn't a Tesla. Maybe that changes but I'll see it when I believe it. The Bolt never came close to selling out. They're available everywhere. Sans supercharging, it's the best EV on the market today, but alas, has only sold a fraction of a fraction of the Model 3.

At this pace EVs are 20 years out from being functional replacements, and many billions $$$, maybe even $1T or more, will be spent in making it so, and the benefit overall is quite dubious, especially considering the increasing environmental toll of manufacturing ever more electronics. Even then, they're bound to be much more expensive than their ICE counterparts, just as they are today.

For 100+ years EVs have had applications - city buses/trolleys, subways, commuter trains. Battery-powered EVs are even narrower in scope - forklifts, golf carts, wheel chairs. As I see it this is still the case - EVs have their applications as they always have, but it's limited. Our culture didn't think through the consequences and it will cost us, esp. should EVs become mandated by law (= ever more people are shut out economically).

[GoCougs]

This is the type of EV I want introduced in the US:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1132318_vw-id-x-concept-teases-electric-hot-hatch

Just as with all EVs thus far, it'll never sell worth a damn in the US because it's not a Tesla.

[SJ_GTI]

Just as with all EVs thus far, it'll never sell worth a damn in the US because it's not a Tesla.

To be fair though, the equivalent gas car (the Golf R) only sells ~5,000 units a year, so its not like anyone would expect it to be a best seller. 

[Morris Minor]

Ford just knocked it out of the ballpark with the F150 Lightning. $40,000  base (before credits), AWD, 426hp for the base, 10,000lbs towing, it can provide over 9kw of electrical power to consumers, and when plugged in at home it can act as a back up power bank. 


We will have to wait about the weight, it won't be pretty, but it should not be a 9000lbs behemoth like the Hummer H1.

Wondering why GM chose Hummer fuckery rather than doing this with the Silverado.

[Laconian]

Here's what 0-60 in 1.1 seconds would look like, if the Tesla Roadster gets its rocketpack:
https://twitter.com/Pslavi/status/1275325130667745280

[GoCougs]

Wondering why GM chose Hummer fuckery rather than doing this with the Silverado.

Risk maybe? GM got stung on the Bolt (and Volt). Ginormous investment. Great product (at least as good as the competition). Paltry sales vs. the competition and nothing but red ink. Could be said that is risky to bring that into the product that literally keeps them alive (Silverado - though a quick Google trip shows an EV Silverado is due in a 2-3 years). Ford saw it differently obviously for who knows why. Either way, the Hummer truck EV is just an awful awful idea.

Almost 10 years on and pretty much Telsa is the only EV that anyone buys in any appreciable volume much as some 20 years on and pretty much Toyota is the only hybrid that anyone buys in any appreciable volume (i.e., the "Prius/Pious effect"). History points to the EV F-150 getting Prius'd as well (by the Cyber Truck - which has 500,000+ reservations thus far). They'll sell some of course, but it's bound to be in the noise.

[Morris Minor]

The EV ecosystems are breaking a bit towards something analogous to those of smartphones. Tesla, with an Apple-akin devoted base of happy bunnies, living in its lovely walled garden. And the rest - more diverse, more open, more hacker friendly.

[ChrisV]

Maybe, but EVs regularly underperform on range, especially outside of ideal environmental conditions. Most trucks are not for fleet use, and those that are, aren't terribly useful with a range of 125 miles or less (when towing, as many fleet trucks do).

That's not actually true except in winter. And you forget the effects of regen on real world range. That's not accounted for in EPA tests (and thus not factored in in manufacturer advertising estimates). And towing, especially in suburban areas for fleet operators like landscapers, will be greater than you think because the trailer adds mass that is generating more regen (not as much as it takes to move that mass, but it means that in those suburban and semi-rural scenarios the range is not reduced by towing as much as YOU think. There's no way a 300 mile range truck (or even a 230 mile range) drops to 125 or less when towing a landscaping trailer.

The fact is to date no EV sells worth a damn that isn't a Tesla. Maybe that changes but I'll see it when I believe it. The Bolt never came close to selling out. They're available everywhere.

Actually they sold over 100k of them so far and sold enough at a profit for the last two years that they are just now releasing to the dealers the second gen, redesigned Bolt AND Bolt EUV crossover. The dealers couldn't keep the Bolts in stock (the dealer that I got mine from did always have about 25-30 on hand at any given time, but individually they rarely stayed on the lot for more than a week or two at a time. They basically flowed out of the dealership like water for the last two years. The battery pack for the last two years has only been about $6600 of the cost of a Bolt. Not much more than the cost of a modern 4cyl engine. Which is why they've been able to turn a profit off of them.

At this pace EVs are 20 years out from being functional replacements, and many billions $$$, maybe even $1T or more, will be spent in making it so, and the benefit overall is quite dubious, especially considering the increasing environmental toll of manufacturing ever more electronics. Even then, they're bound to be much more expensive than their ICE counterparts, just as they are today.

How is a $25k hatch like my Bolt "much" more expensive than a $25k Golf or GTi? Or MINI Cooper? Those are it's ICE counterparts. For most people (and since most people in the US live with a hundred miles or so of the coasts or major urban areas) 250 miles of range that is topped of every night for a "full tank" every morning is sufficient to replace an ICE car for day to day use. And talking about billions spent on development? How much did Ford spend developing the new 7.3 liter NA V8 and how many vehicles will it take to sell to recoup that cost? Typically a new engine family costs a billion or more to develop and certify. EVs don't have that issue.

I live with an EV every day. And I've been studying them since 2010 and following the developments and what real owners are talking about and use them for. You obviously haven't.

[Morris Minor]

We're in a very hilly area, lots of steep grades and switchback bends. Tesla owners do well because of regen - saves their brakes & rotors, which get killed here. And no overheating automatic transmissions.

(The CVT in my late unlamented CR-V went nuts on us once. Could not handle it... dash display lit up like a Christmas tree with cascades of errors & warnings.)

[Speed_Racer]

I am amped (pun intended) about the Lightning but non-Tesla charging infrastructure needs improvement where I'm at.

[GoCougs]

That's not actually true except in winter. And you forget the effects of regen on real world range. That's not accounted for in EPA tests (and thus not factored in in manufacturer advertising estimates). And towing, especially in suburban areas for fleet operators like landscapers, will be greater than you think because the trailer adds mass that is generating more regen (not as much as it takes to move that mass, but it means that in those suburban and semi-rural scenarios the range is not reduced by towing as much as YOU think. There's no way a 300 mile range truck (or even a 230 mile range) drops to 125 or less when towing a landscaping trailer.

It's only partially about what I think. There's also dose of experience, and spotch of engineering knowledge and experience in electric motors and drives, and a healthy heaping of near-infinite Model X towing tests available online which show with a 5,000 lb payload range is easily cut in half. Regen helps with range of course, but it's not a cure-all.

Actually they sold over 100k of them so far and sold enough at a profit for the last two years that they are just now releasing to the dealers the second gen, redesigned Bolt AND Bolt EUV crossover. The dealers couldn't keep the Bolts in stock (the dealer that I got mine from did always have about 25-30 on hand at any given time, but individually they rarely stayed on the lot for more than a week or two at a time. They basically flowed out of the dealership like water for the last two years. The battery pack for the last two years has only been about $6600 of the cost of a Bolt. Not much more than the cost of a modern 4cyl engine. Which is why they've been able to turn a profit off of them.

This simply is not true. Bolts have been slow sellers since debut, average sales inventory has been upwards of 100 days or more, and a quick perusal of AutoTrader shows new Bolts listed at 30-40% off MSRP. Mary Barra has said many GM doesn't expect EVs to be profitable for GM until 2029 or there abouts (without providing any details mind you).

How is a $25k hatch like my Bolt "much" more expensive than a $25k Golf or GTi? Or MINI Cooper? Those are it's ICE counterparts. For most people (and since most people in the US live with a hundred miles or so of the coasts or major urban areas) 250 miles of range that is topped of every night for a "full tank" every morning is sufficient to replace an ICE car for day to day use. And talking about billions spent on development? How much did Ford spend developing the new 7.3 liter NA V8 and how many vehicles will it take to sell to recoup that cost? Typically a new engine family costs a billion or more to develop and certify. EVs don't have that issue.

Paying 30-40% off MSRP for a new car should be an indicator of something, right? The Bolt MSRP is $36k for the base model, and that's not profitable. GM's mum on how much it loses on each Bolt, but bet it's at least $5k. So all in, best case, a profitable Bolt has an MSRP 100+% more than its ICE equivalent (say a base Civic or Corolla).

I live with an EV every day. And I've been studying them since 2010 and following the developments and what real owners are talking about and use them for. You obviously haven't.

Great. Other have experience and knowledge too as shown ITT. ~10 years on since The Legit Debut and EVs are still not equivalent to their ICE counterparts - better, but price, profitability and range aren't nearly up to par. The EV F-150 is showing to be exactly the same, when towing or otherwise. GM says another ~10 years, my bet is it's way longer than that (20+ years), and will require some sort of revolutionary tech that today would be considered magic.

[Submariner]

It's a lot of weight but it has 3 motors and enough battery power to haul its mass over 300 miles. It also has a ton of complexity (removable panels, adjustable ride height, etc.) that adds up to a lot of extra pounds. When you consider that a Tesla Model S can weigh in close to 5000 pounds and a Ford F-250 can tilt the scales at over 7500 pounds and neither of them have the complexity of the Hummer, I am not surprised this thing is the weight of a small elephant.

For some reason I suspect those mileage figured will be revised downwards shortly after customers take delivery.

[CaminoRacer]

For some reason I suspect those mileage figured will be revised downwards shortly after customers take delivery.

Mach-E appears to have an accurate range estimate from the factory

[AutobahnSHO]

A guy at work traded in his wife's (3yr old) F150 for an Accord about a month ago.

Saturday he traded in his 2018 4door Wrangler for a Wrangler "4xE" (4door plugin hybrid). He got $35k tradein on the old jeep ( ) and the only 4xE in the area was a custom order the guy said nevermind (and forfeited his $1000 deposit).

He should be able to get to work and home on just battery- lives about 8miles of stop and go traffic away.

[CaminoRacer]

My wife has a busy day today. Going to work in the morning, but taking off early to go to a graduation ceremony up in Ogden. Since we sold the Mazda6 and I haven't taught her to drive the Miata yet, the Bolt is the only option. But it'll tackle the day pretty easily. It's about 150 miles total, and we charged it up last night to about 175 miles of range (not 100% full). That's just what the Guessometer on the dash says, it'll probably go further than that. I think the "GOM" is still reading low from the winter.

The 12 amp option on the Level 1 charger is pretty good. 8 amp is slow, but usually fine for our needs. Bumping it up to 12 amps has always been sufficient for when we need to charge faster. For emergency back-up, there's a Chevy and Ford dealership within decent walking distance and each have a level 2 charger in their lot. But we've never had to use them.

[afty]

We're going on a family trip for Memorial Day.  It's 210 miles, so I can get there without charging in my 310-mile Model 3 LR.  I'll charge to 100% before leaving so that I don't have to charge immediately after we arrive.  There's an L2 Chargepoint at the hotel, but you never know if it'll be taken when we arrive.  There's also a Supercharger in the town where we're staying.

[CaminoRacer]

My wife has a busy day today. Going to work in the morning, but taking off early to go to a graduation ceremony up in Ogden. Since we sold the Mazda6 and I haven't taught her to drive the Miata yet, the Bolt is the only option. But it'll tackle the day pretty easily. It's about 150 miles total, and we charged it up last night to about 175 miles of range (not 100% full). That's just what the Guessometer on the dash says, it'll probably go further than that. I think the "GOM" is still reading low from the winter.

She ended up with 50 miles left when she got home, better than expected.

Combination of the GOM reading a bit low for the current weather conditions, and any slow downs on the freeway increase efficiency a lot and therefore the range increases.

[AutobahnSHO]

any slow downs on the freeway increase efficiency a lot and therefore the range increases.

LOL so funny.

I think Miata is "only" getting 28mpg to work because I'm pushing 65-75mph for most of it, which is upwards of 3.5k on the tach. Even though there are only a couple of lights/ stop signs, that buzzy speed can't be the most optimal.

[CaminoRacer]

LOL so funny.

I think Miata is "only" getting 28mpg to work because I'm pushing 65-75mph for most of it, which is upwards of 3.5k on the tach. Even though there are only a couple of lights/ stop signs, that buzzy speed can't be the most optimal.

45-50 mph tends to be the most efficient speed for most cars. Top gear, lower RPMs.

Since EVs have very efficient motors at pretty much any speed, their top efficiency is at a very low speed to minimize drag. Probably like 20 mph. But not even hypermillers will put up with that.

[Morris Minor]

Tesla does a two motor combo: squirrel-cage induction motor for lower speeds & acceleration, and a synchronous reluctance motor for high speeds, where it's more efficient. They do that in the S - not sure about the rest the range.

[afty]

We're going on a family trip for Memorial Day.  It's 210 miles, so I can get there without charging in my 310-mile Model 3 LR.  I'll charge to 100% before leaving so that I don't have to charge immediately after we arrive.  There's an L2 Chargepoint at the hotel, but you never know if it'll be taken when we arrive.  There's also a Supercharger in the town where we're staying.

Trip went as planned. Left at 100%, arrived at 23%. 4 Chargepoint L2 chargers at the hotel, all of which were available when we arrived. They're a bit pricy at $0.40/kWh, but we used them anyway for convenience.

[CaminoRacer]

4 chargers is impressive. I think I usually only see 1-2

[afty]

4 chargers is impressive. I think I usually only see 1-2

Yeah, it was a pleasant surprise.

I was playing around with A Better Route Planner to see how other extended range EVs would do on this trip. A Taycan and id.4 would both have to charge. A Model Y and Mach-E would make it with 11% and 16% battery remaining, respectively. Surprisingly a Bolt would also make it if you keep your speed below 60 mph.

[afty]

The Mach-E outsold the Mustang in June: https://jalopnik.com/the-ford-mustang-mach-e-just-outsold-the-gas-mustang-fo-1847220363

[cawimmer430]

This is the type of EV I want introduced in the US:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1132318_vw-id-x-concept-teases-electric-hot-hatch

NEIN! ZEE US-MARKET VILL GET ZEE NEW ID.4 SÜW!!! 

[Morris Minor]

Harry Metcalfe interviewed Anthony Bamford, the boss of JCB - a huge maker of construction & agricultural equipment: tractors, diggers, backhoes, loaders, you name it.
He's betting on ICE engines fueled by hydrogen. Batteries are fine for lightweight light duty gear that does only four or five hours per day (sort of thing you'd tow behind an F250.) But for the big expensive stuff that's worked continuously for eight, 16, or round the clock -  batteries won't do it: way too heavy, low energy density, low capacity. ICE engines are lightweight, cheap to build, & super reliable.

The sound is bad - guess Harry could not get lapel mics together for this.
https://youtu.be/wDKLoLUQgH0