Simply due to it's color...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/carb-so-crazy/
Yeah, yet I cannot tint my front 2 windows over 70% to cool it down in CA. So I can only use clear tint in reality.. great!
well, I guess you should just paint your car like one of these, then:
(http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/chrome_BMW_M3_2.jpg)
(http://www.strangevehicles.com/images/content/102415.jpg)
(http://media.nextautos.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/chrome-audi-with-sheihk.jpg)
It's a huge shame, though. That triple black Prius is probably the only Prius I'd ever drive, and ironically, CARB won't have any of it in the name of eco-friendliness :rolleyes:
Fuck it, my next car is still going to be a satin black 2009+ CTS-V :devil:
besides, I doubt that the energy required to cool the interior of a car is affected at all by it's exterior color. If anything, they should encourage limo tints on all windows except the windshield.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 26, 2009, 12:17:59 PM
besides, I doubt that the energy required to cool the interior of a car is affected at all by it's exterior color. If anything, they should encourage limo tints on all windows except the windshield.
They're saying that a black car absorbs the heat more, so it takes more effort for the A/C to cool it down.
This is the hugest crock of BS I've ever heard.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 26, 2009, 12:21:56 PM
They're saying that a black car absorbs the heat more, so it takes more effort for the A/C to cool it down.
But I don't think the heat absorbed transfers into the interior. Am I wrong? In either case, it's insanely dumb. Dark window tints go a much longer way in keeping the car cool than paint color.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 26, 2009, 12:25:48 PM
But I don't think the heat absorbed transfers into the interior. Am I wrong? In either case, it's insanely dumb. Dark window tints go a much longer way in keeping the car cool than paint color.
Yet, they do not allow dark tinted windows on cars.. well now they allow the rears to be as dark as possible but not the front 2.
Next thing you know, you cannot have black interiors too.
My understanding of the law isn't that is excludes black specifically, but that paints must have reflect a specific minimum amount of heat, uv, etc, 20% I believe, and that when the additives needed to do that are put into the black paint, it makes it brown instead. Once the paint manufactures develop the necessary additives to not discolor the paint, it won't be a problem.
It still sounds like BS to me, don't get me wrong. But they aren't outlawing black, black just can't meet the requirements at the moment.
Quote from: cozmik on March 26, 2009, 12:52:54 PM
My understanding of the law isn't that is excludes black specifically, but that paints must have reflect a specific minimum amount of heat, uv, etc, 20% I believe, and that when the additives needed to do that are put into the black paint, it makes it brown instead. Once the paint manufactures develop the necessary additives to not discolor the paint, it won't be a problem.
It still sounds like BS to me, don't get me wrong. But they aren't outlawing black, black just can't meet the requirements at the moment.
We'll end up having excessive amount of discolored black car that becomes doo doo brown which started to have their resale value drop like a rock because they literally looks like shit
Quote from: cozmik on March 26, 2009, 12:52:54 PM
It still sounds like BS to me, don't get me wrong. But they aren't outlawing black, black just can't meet the requirements at the moment.
But there shouldn't be any requirements for color of a car (short of obvious environmental issues/health issues such as lead paint, etc.). What is the difference in fuel consumption with A/C use between a black car and the same car in white? Pretty freaking tiny, I bet.
I'm simply amazed (and disenchanted) that, with all the shit going on, something like this even sees the light of day.
Quote from: cozmik on March 26, 2009, 12:52:54 PM
It still sounds like BS to me, don't get me wrong. But they aren't outlawing black, black just can't meet the requirements at the moment.
The result is the same regardless of logical mechanism. If black can't meet the requirements, then the requirements cause black to be banned.
That is so idiotic that it doesn't even deserve a comment.
WHAT IF YOU DON'T USE A/C AND YOU LIKE YOUR CAR TO KEEP WARM INSIDE IN THE WINTER WITHOUT HAVING TO RUN THE ENGINE? STUPID CALIFORNIA.
Quote from: Vinsanity on March 26, 2009, 12:25:48 PM
But I don't think the heat absorbed transfers into the interior. Am I wrong? In either case, it's insanely dumb. Dark window tints go a much longer way in keeping the car cool than paint color.
Actually, it does.
Quote from: MX793 on March 26, 2009, 04:19:52 PM
Actually, it does.
It can't be enough to make a huge difference.
Say you have a black cardboard box and a white cardboard box. Within each (closed) box is a wireless temperature probe from which you have constant readings of internal temperature of the boxes. Now, put both boxes into the sun and monitor the temperatures. Which box is warmer? The black box or the white box?
:facepalm:
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 26, 2009, 04:24:32 PM
Say you have a black cardboard box and a white cardboard box. Within each (closed) box is a wireless temperature probe from which you have constant readings of internal temperature of the boxes. Now, put both boxes into the sun and monitor the temperatures. Which box is warmer? The black box or the white box?
:facepalm:
Cardboard doesn't conduct heat as well as metal.
Still, this is probably the worst idea I've ever heard.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 26, 2009, 04:21:31 PM
It can't be enough to make a huge difference.
Most new cars don't consume that much more fuel when the AC is on vs off, so no, it doesn't make that much difference. On top of that, there are other reasons to run the AC besides keeping the car cool. Mine runs almost all winter and much of the late fall and early spring with the defrost.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Cardboard doesn't conduct heat as well as metal.
Still, this is probably the worst idea I've ever heard.
Okay, so...instead of cardboard boxes you have metal boxes.
Why is it the worst idea you've ever heard? It will simply show that the inside of a black box is going to be much warmer than the inside of a white box because black absorbs more heat and thus transfers that heat to the air within the box itself. The white box reflects more light, absorbs less energy, and is thus cooler on the inside.
Physics?
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Cardboard doesn't conduct heat as well as metal.
Still, this is probably the worst idea I've ever heard.
That further proves his point. Metal conducts heat very well, which means heat absorbed into the metal gets transfered into the car more quickly (since the body is attached to the frame which is attached to the interior bits).
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 26, 2009, 04:27:40 PM
Okay, so...instead of cardboard boxes you have metal boxes.
Why is it the worst idea you've ever heard? It will simply show that the inside of a black box is going to be much warmer than the inside of a white box because black absorbs more heat and thus transfers that heat to the air within the box itself. The white box reflects more light, absorbs less energy, and is thus cooler on the inside.
Physics?
Oh, I see what you're saying now.
And I was talking about banning black cars as the worst idea I've ever heard of, not your post. ;)
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 04:25:38 PM
Cardboard doesn't conduct heat as well as metal.
Still, this is probably the worst idea I've ever heard.
So, we just start making cars out of cardboard.. problem solved!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBn4oqgCbfQ
Which would you rather be inside of? The white jacket (white car) or the black pants (black car)?
So is Alaska going to ban white cars? After all at -50 every little bit of heat absorbtion is helpful.
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 26, 2009, 04:30:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBn4oqgCbfQ
Which would you rather be inside of? The white jacket (white car) or the black pants (black car)?
Grey car.
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 26, 2009, 04:30:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBn4oqgCbfQ
Which would you rather be inside of? The white jacket (white car) or the black pants (black car)?
If both the jacket and pants have A/C then I don't care. :huh:
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 04:32:37 PM
If both the jacket and pants have A/C then I don't care. :huh:
K.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 26, 2009, 04:31:59 PM
So is Alaska going to ban white cars? After all at -50 every little bit of heat absorbtion is helpful.
Heating the car makes use of otherwise wasted heat, so you're making it more efficient.
Quote from: MX793 on March 26, 2009, 04:34:55 PM
Heating the car makes use of otherwise wasted heat, so you're making it more efficient.
Right, that was not 100% thought through.
However in my defence, many diesels have auxiliary heaters because the engines produce little waste heat.
They should quit beating around the bush and just ban A/C. And cars. Everyone gets a Segway.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 26, 2009, 04:38:08 PM
Right, that was not 100% thought through.
However in my defence, many diesels have auxiliary heaters because the engines produce little waste heat.
Block heaters? Those are to keep the engine (more importantly the fuel system) warm when parked so that the parafin in the diesel doesn't solidify and turn the fuel to gel. Diesels produce plenty of heat.
Quote from: MX793 on March 26, 2009, 04:42:44 PM
Block heaters? Those are to keep the engine (more importantly the fuel system) warm when parked so that the parafin in the diesel doesn't solidify and turn the fuel to gel. Diesels produce plenty of heat.
Maybe the big diesels in commercial trucks produce enough heat. Most diesels for consumer cars use engine independent heaters because the things have gotten so efficient. VW uses electric furnaces from Webasto, unless one orders a preheat system then the heat is supplied by a diesel furnace.
Even the V10 TDI has one.
Man, speaking of wasted heat. Imagine if they can harness the wasted heat from the engines.. to.. I don't.. power something else? Create Hydrogen even?
Hmm.. Rotary Engine produces a lot of heat, Rotary engine can run on Hydrogen.
So you use the heat from the Rotary engine to create electricity to produce hydrogen.. so you can perpetually keep a car running by adding more water!
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it hotter then fuck in California for most of the year? And don't people drive around with the A/C on no matter what colour the car is? I know here in the Okanagan, most people use their A/C all summer no matter what they drive because it's so damn hot.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 04:33:53 PM
:huh:
If you didn't notice, I was trying to contrare the fact that Vinsanity said that he didn't think heat absorbed by the sheet metal would transfer to the interior.
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:07:35 PM
Man, speaking of wasted heat. Imagine if they can harness the wasted heat from the engines.. to.. I don't.. power something else? Create Hydrogen even?
Hmm.. Rotary Engine produces a lot of heat, Rotary engine can run on Hydrogen.
So you use the heat from the Rotary engine to create electricity to produce hydrogen.. so you can perpetually keep a car running by adding more water!
BMW is working on that.
(http://www.steamcar.net/other-cars/bmw-2.jpg)
Quote from: Galaxy on March 26, 2009, 05:10:25 PM
BMW is working on that.
Yeah, but they're using a boinger engine.. I want a rotary!!
Quote from: HEMI666 on March 26, 2009, 05:08:23 PM
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it hotter then fuck in California for most of the year? And don't people drive around with the A/C on no matter what colour the car is? I know here in the Okanagan, most people use their A/C all summer no matter what they drive because it's so damn hot.
Their argument is that in a white car the AC will need to work less then in a black car. I doubt the difference is that big. Perhaps they should instead work on AC efficiency. A few years ago I read an artice on AC systems. I do not remember the details but there where great differences in fuel consumption.
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:11:24 PM
Yeah, but they're using a boinger engine.. I want a rotary!!
Well that would work to. All the Turbosteamer does is use the exhaust heat to power a generator.
I think the secret mission is actually to conserve water, as black is such an impossible color to keep clean.
Honestly black looks awesome but I would go crazy trying to keep it clean and swirl free.
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:07:35 PM
Man, speaking of wasted heat. Imagine if they can harness the wasted heat from the engines.. to.. I don't.. power something else? Create Hydrogen even?
Hmm.. Rotary Engine produces a lot of heat, Rotary engine can run on Hydrogen.
So you use the heat from the Rotary engine to create electricity to produce hydrogen.. so you can perpetually keep a car running by adding more water!
Perpetual motion machines defy the 2nd law.
Quote from: MX793 on March 26, 2009, 05:21:39 PM
Perpetual motion machines defy the 2nd law.
Well, you have to add water (fuel) so it's not a true perpetual motion machine. It's just a really cheap fuel.
It isn't a real perpetual motion machine if you must continually add fuel (water) to the system.
Edit: Snaked! :lockedup:
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:24:11 PM
Well, you have to add water (fuel) so it's not a true perpetual motion machine. It's just a really cheap fuel.
Problem is, it takes more electrical energy to split H2 from H2O than the energy that H2 releases when it oxidizes.
There seems to be a great amount of hot air coming out of Sacramento.
Ban that.
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:24:11 PM
Well, you have to add water (fuel) so it's not a true perpetual motion machine. It's just a really cheap fuel.
The water does not release energy though without energy being expended to release it.
Quote from: MX793 on March 26, 2009, 05:33:51 PM
Problem is, it takes more electrical energy to split H2 from H2O than the energy that H2 releases when it oxidizes.
Quote from: Galaxy on March 26, 2009, 05:36:09 PM
The water does not release energy though without energy being expended to release it.
Yeah, but the engine cannot run purely on electricity. So the heat is converted to electricity. You have to use electricity for something that can be used by the engine. What I can think of off the top of my head right now is H2 from H20. So you yield H2 and consume it to produce heat and motion, and use the heat to generate electricity, which creates H2 from H20, rinse and repeat.
And you can even harness the exhaust fuse from the H2 Rotary engine to reclaim the water.
But, since the engine is not 100% efficient, you'll still be using more H2 than created so you'll still have to add some H2 into the system, but it would be infinitely more efficient in theory than a pure H2 system.
Quote from: NomisR on March 26, 2009, 05:41:21 PM
But, since the engine is not 100% efficient, you'll still be using more H2 than created so you'll still have to add some H2 into the system, but it would be infinitely more efficient in theory than a pure H2 system.
Your just wasting energy to split the water.
What your saying is how the BMW steamster works except with steam not H2. The engine produces heat, the heat turns a liquid into steam, which drives a generator. You are still using energy, but the waste gets reduced.
Sorry that I was not more precise in the first post where I mentioned the Steamster.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 26, 2009, 11:57:02 AM
Simply due to it's color...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/carb-so-crazy/
Category NINE :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Quote from: thecarnut on March 26, 2009, 12:24:01 PM
This is the hugest crock of BS I've ever heard.
Nope. Black vehicles get hugely hot. Decades ago, my late father had a black T-Bird with a black vinyl roof. Hottest mutha on the planet! Let it sit in the sun for thirty minutes on an August afternoon and the doors would whoosh outwards when you opened them. In its defense, the car had A/C that had two positions: "Off" and "Frostbitten Balls". Coldest damned A/C on Earth.
Whether or not this is a worthwhile regulation, it is nonetheless based upon factual observance. And yes, the heat penetrates from the black finish on the exterior into the interior in short order, even with protective layers of insulation/sound deadener in between. Tinted windows help, but they help regardless of the color of the exterior paint...
Yes, heat penetrates to the interior, but not that much. Believe me, I have cars with dark exteriors and light exteriors. The difference is not huge. And if it's hot enough to have the A/C on, I'll have it on the whole time anyway. So I won't save any energy by changing the exterior color.
If the AC is working harder, it'll pull more power from the engine, reducing fuel mileage. Especially climate control systems, vs just rotary dial ACs.
As mythbusters found, a black car can be up to 10 degrees hotter inside during regular use.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 27, 2009, 01:45:12 PM
If the AC is working harder, it'll pull more power from the engine, reducing fuel mileage. Especially climate control systems, vs just rotary dial ACs.
As mythbusters found, a black car can be up to 10 degrees hotter inside during regular use.
But it doesn't work harder, it would just work longer (for me, at least). But that's irrelevant since if it's hot, I'll just turn the A/C on and leave it on.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 27, 2009, 01:49:07 PM
But it doesn't work harder, it would just work longer (for me, at least). But that's irrelevant since if it's hot, I'll just turn the A/C on and leave it on.
Climate control automatically adjusts to maintain a temperature. It's not like systems that you simply turn on or off. So if it's hotter inside the car, then it works harder to maintain a set temp than if it's cooler in the car.
in my car, for example, you set the temp you want the car to be at, not just low/high/max.
Quote from: ChrisV on March 27, 2009, 01:45:12 PM
If the AC is working harder, it'll pull more power from the engine, reducing fuel mileage. Especially climate control systems, vs just rotary dial ACs.
As mythbusters found, a black car can be up to 10 degrees hotter inside during regular use.
Yeah, if you have regular A/C chances are you'll leave it on and just adjust the temperature/fan speeds (I don't, but then I am a cheap-ass) which I believe wouldn't change the load on the engine.
But, with a climate controlled car, the A/C will cut on and off automatically. So, obviously both manual A/C and black cars need to be banned.
Quote from: hotrodalex on March 27, 2009, 01:49:07 PM
But it doesn't work harder, it would just work longer (for me, at least). But that's irrelevant since if it's hot, I'll just turn the A/C on and leave it on.
In theory, the greater the temperature difference (and higher the humidity, too) the harder the compressor works.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 27, 2009, 04:29:23 PM
In theory, the greater the temperature difference (and higher the humidity, too) the harder the compressor works.
A local tv station did an experiment a couple of summers ago, testing "A/C on" vs. "A/C off" and windows down and compared fuel mileage. A car got better gas mileage with A/C on and windows up...past 45-50 mph. The car was more aerodynamic with the windows up. At lower speeds, the mileage got better with a/c off and the windows down.
In less humid areas, you guys can always go back to swamp coolers mounted on the passenger door.
(http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/dic/pix/swampcooler2.jpg)
What the...?
:confused:
In the future, all cars will be green. Their surfaces will be a clay-like surface, mixed with plant nutrients, that can sustain a thick, live grass. This will reduce reflective heat and the plant life will help offset global warming.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/183194254_8486e45864.jpg?v=0)
Come on...admit it...deep down, you fear that this is what environmentalist really want!
Grass Car is no match for Adobe, the sassy new Mexican import that's made of clay!
Quote from: NACar on March 27, 2009, 07:28:05 PM
Grass Car is no match for Adobe, the sassy new Mexican import that's made of clay!
German engineering meets Mexican know-how...
Just to add yet another unscientific little story to the mix, I can notice a significant temperature difference inside my blue WRX versus my white Outback, (outback being cooler), which both use the same brand and shade window tint and have dark grey/black interiors. The Outback also has a lot more window surface and overall surface area to bake itself with.
Would it make a big difference in A/C use? Certainly, if the vehicles have sat unused for a period of time in the sun. It would require more A/C use to bring the temps down in the Impreza, but that said I leave the A/C on almost all the time in the summer like most folks, so I wouldn't notice a real difference at the gas pump.
The WRX also has leather, doesn't it? That probably makes a difference too.
This is where we have reached.
Absurdity is creeping and creeping into our lives and we're here discussing "paint additives"?
Quote from: TBR on March 28, 2009, 04:07:53 PM
The WRX also has leather, doesn't it? That probably makes a difference too.
I don't see much of a difference between leather or cloth. Now vinyl, that's another story...
California is so stupid
They should do a real scientific study seeing whether or not paint color actually affects HVAC efficiency in a car. I would bet window tint and interior color would make more of a difference than exterior color. Black leather + no tints = oven