BMW Says The Days Of Manuals And DCTs Are Numbered
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The vice-president of sales and marketing for BMW's M division says that both manual and dual clutch transmissions will die out.
The imminent death of the manual transmission has been coming for years and shouldn't surprise anyone, however Peter Quintus' belief that DCTs are also on the way out might shock a few people.
While speaking to Drive, Quintus said that the advantage of quicker shifts dual-clutch transmissions once had over traditional automatic gearboxes are dwindling.
"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go. How long will it last? We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics."
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher. Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter," Quintus said.
The executive also revealed he isn't sure if the next-generation M3 or M4 will have the option of a manual transmission.
Link: http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/bmw-says-days-of-manuals-and-dcts-are.html
I feel like we discussed this, but if we didn't I'm not surprised. The only ///M car worth talking about anymore is the M2; the rest have lost their way chasing horsepower.
Well, if the goal it to chase ever higher performance and efficiency, manuals are definitely on the way out.
DCTs are interesting but it'd be mega complicated to make them have the smoothness and driveability of a slushie AT.
The 8 sp ZF slushie was the tipping point and the new GM/Ford 10 sp AT in the ZL1 looks to be the beginning of the end.
People are stupid. It wasn't supposed to end this way
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 24, 2017, 08:12:03 AM
I feel like we discussed this, but if we didn't I'm not surprised. The only ///M car worth talking about anymore is the M2; the rest have lost their way chasing horsepower.
That's all from personal experience surely. (I mean personal experience reading Car and Driver).
I really don't feel it's any real loss to go from a DCT to an auto if the auto shifts as fast and can be smoother as well. The auto box in the big ///M SUV's is fantastic. It shifts instantly, I don't miss a DCT at all.
Now, leaving the manual behind is another matter. But take rates are so low that for all the bitching and moaning it's tough to blame BMW or any other manufacturer making a similar decision.
When I go looking here for used cars, even Porsches are basically all PDK. Probably a 10-1 ratio PDK to manuals here in Mexico. There were more back when Porsche had the awful tiptronic box, but these days everybody gets the PDK. (I'd still get a manual though).
Autos and ACTs are the same shit to me. The death of the manual has been on the cards for years now, but it is as terrible as it is inevitable.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on April 24, 2017, 09:27:12 AM
I really don't feel it's any real loss to go from a DCT to an auto if the auto shifts as fast and can be smoother as well. The auto box in the big ///M SUV's is fantastic. It shifts instantly, I don't miss a DCT at all.
I agree with you in concept, but again I will say I have driven several cars with the supposedly magical ZF 8-speed auto and it felt just like any other auto for me. I would take the Audi/VW ancient 6-speed DSG over it any day of the week. :huh: I've never driven the PDK transmission but by all accounts it surpassed the DSG.
Quote
Now, leaving the manual behind is another matter. But take rates are so low that for all the bitching and moaning it's tough to blame BMW or any other manufacturer making a similar decision.
When I go looking here for used cars, even Porsches are basically all PDK. Probably a 10-1 ratio PDK to manuals here in Mexico. There were more back when Porsche had the awful tiptronic box, but these days everybody gets the PDK. (I'd still get a manual though).
Manuals definitely more fun for me, but for a track I would prefer a DSG/DCT/PDK.
All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 24, 2017, 11:37:51 AM
I agree with you in concept, but again I will say I have driven several cars with the supposedly magical ZF 8-speed auto and it felt just like any other auto for me. I would take the Audi/VW ancient 6-speed DSG over it any day of the week. :huh: I've never driven the PDK transmission but by all accounts it surpassed the DSG.
Manuals definitely more fun for me, but for a track I would prefer a DSG/DCT/PDK.
All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.
I'd want an ACT on a track....if I were a professional. But the days where I could be a racing god have long since passed. Any time on the track is purely for enjoyment--and that enjoyment is enhanced by full control over the car and the involvement of a manual transmission.
Quote from: Raza on April 24, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
I'd want an ACT on a track....if I were a professional. But the days where I could be a racing god have long since passed. Any time on the track is purely for enjoyment--and that enjoyment is enhanced by full control over the car and the involvement of a manual transmission.
Have you driven on a track? There's a lot going on. A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.
Quote from: MrH on April 24, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Have you driven on a track? There's a lot going on. A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.
Yeah that is my thinking. I am not an expert with manuals. I feel like if I am at a track I would be perfectly willing to shift with paddles in order to focus on other things happening around me. Granted manually operating a clutch becomes somewhat second nature, but I make mistakes occasionally. Not a big deal on the drive in to work but on a track where I am trying to maximize performance I think it might be more irritating than rewarding for me.
Quote from: MrH on April 24, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Have you driven on a track? There's a lot going on. A DSG makes a lot more sense for track work.
Yes, multiple times. Automatic and manual and an automated manual Ferrari.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 24, 2017, 12:41:27 PM
Yeah that is my thinking. I am not an expert with manuals. I feel like if I am at a track I would be perfectly willing to shift with paddles in order to focus on other things happening around me. Granted manually operating a clutch becomes somewhat second nature, but I make mistakes occasionally. Not a big deal on the drive in to work but on a track where I am trying to maximize performance I think it might be more irritating than rewarding for me.
Who cares about being an expert? It's not your job; it's a hobby. You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there. What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it? Part of driving is changing gear. Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 24, 2017, 11:37:51 AM
All the above being said with electric cars on the horizon the issue of manual/DCT/torque converter may be moot.
I was expecting them to say something along those lines.
Quote from: Raza on April 24, 2017, 01:07:39 PM
Who cares about being an expert? It's not your job; it's a hobby. You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there. What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it? Part of driving is changing gear. Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.
There's a lot more to driving on a track than changing gears. If that's all driving is to you, then the track is probably a waste of time.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 24, 2017, 01:33:36 PM
There's a lot more to driving on a track than changing gears. If that's all driving is to you, then the track is probably a waste of time.
:facepalm:
So reductive. Of course it's only one part; I literally said "Part of driving is changing gear". You should know that, because it's in the post that you supposedly read and definitely quoted. So if I were to say something like "A roof is part of a house" and you say "There's a lot more to a house than a roof", it makes you seem a little silly doesn't it? So we can both agree that changing gear is part of driving. But why give that one part up? To make it easier? If you're going to give up part of your control over the car to make it easier, why not give up more? And more? And more still? Until you're not challenging yourself at all.
Quote from: Raza on April 24, 2017, 01:07:39 PM
Who cares about being an expert? It's not your job; it's a hobby. You're out there for fun, not because you have to be there. What's the point of driving on the track if it's not to challenge yourself and have fun with it? Part of driving is changing gear. Might as well get on a track in a Tesla, put it on Autopilot, and start texting while you wait for the battery to die.
I guess it depends on where you gain satisfaction from.
Keeping in mind I am a bit older than you, for me the initial pull of a manual gearbox was being able to control which gear I was in while also getting a significant bump in performance. Being able to manually control the clutch with my foot was not even on my radar and it wasn't something I particularly relished. The first automated manual I ever drove was BMW's old "SMG" transmission and I thought it was great (even though it was generally panned in the press). You got the direct connection between the engine and transmission while getting guaranteed perfect shifts at a faster pace than any human could do it. I didn't end up buying it because it was still a bit clunky and there were times where it wasn't as smooth as I could do it myself with a traditional manual.
Since then automated manuals have gotten better and better. I have stuck with the traditional manual out of habit largely, but one other downside with automated manuals is that they are all sequential in nature. When I drive my car I skip gears all the time. The only times I have sequentially is when I am accelerating. I don't derive a ton of pleasure simply by operating the clutch with my foot...I just like being able to put the gear in to any gear at any time. There is also a bit of muscle memory when it comes to shifting by hand using the stickshift itself...I can pretty much tell what gear I am in based on where my hand is at when I put it on the knob.
On a track I feel like going sequentially will cover 99% of the situations you run in to (or at least a much higher percentage than when you are driving in stop and go traffic). You still control what gear you are in and every shift happens exactly when you want it with expert precision and amazing speed.
Quote from: Raza on April 24, 2017, 02:02:47 PM
:facepalm:
So reductive. Of course it's only one part; I literally said "Part of driving is changing gear". You should know that, because it's in the post that you supposedly read and definitely quoted. So if I were to say something like "A roof is part of a house" and you say "There's a lot more to a house than a roof", it makes you seem a little silly doesn't it? So we can both agree that changing gear is part of driving. But why give that one part up? To make it easier? If you're going to give up part of your control over the car to make it easier, why not give up more? And more? And more still? Until you're not challenging yourself at all.
It's not a necessary part for driving enjoyment. To expand on your house metaphor, it's like saying a house is no good if it doesn't have a mud room. Plus in the context of your car philosophy it's not reductive. You write off anything with an automatic as not fun, and anyone with an automatic sports car as lazy. No exceptions.
I think stickshift can add to the driving experience in the right car and context, but unlike you, I actually believe there are other fun aspects of driving besides using a 3rd pedal... I don't just say so to appear impartial :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 24, 2017, 02:33:01 PM
It's not a necessary part for driving enjoyment. To expand on your house metaphor, it's like saying a house is no good if it doesn't have a mud room. Plus in the context of your car philosophy it's not reductive. You write off anything with an automatic as not fun, and anyone with an automatic sports car as lazy. No exceptions.
I think stickshift can add to the driving experience in the right car and context, but unlike you, I actually believe there are other fun aspects of driving besides using a 3rd pedal... I don't just say so to appear impartial :lol:
I get what you're saying. For me, though, still with the houses, it's like a nice house with no doors. Sure, it seems great at first, but then I can't get in.
Such a shame, but BMW traded in their "ultimate driving machine" for "efficient dynamics" years ago, so no big surprise. Oh well, just another car I'll never buy as long as someone else still makes a decent stick.
I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 24, 2017, 04:02:10 PM
I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??
Yes. In the best autos there is no lag. Not your father's torqueflite.
DCT is great on the track... No doubt about it.
These however are street cars and 99% of the cars will spend 99% of their time on the street - where a manual is still more involving and a better driver experience.
Automatics are great for boring stop and go city traffic. And in that case, the sooner we get to full automation the better.
DCTs/Fast sports automatics can be good on a track too. As some have said, in that setting there is so much going on that you don't really think "I wish this was a manual" during a lap. If driving a manual on track, however, you feel that "I'm a driving god" plus if you pull off a perfect heel'n'toe downshift.
Newer manuals blip the throttle for you so they take that bit away....but.....again....on a track setting you don't really miss that. The GT4 does that automatic throttle blipping. Like with a DCT, so much going on that I don't really miss manually blipping on track driving. Plus, it sounds fantastic since the car does it perfectly every time. That sound counts for something too.
Manuals are great on a fast mountain drive IMO. Can't be beat there for pleasure.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on April 24, 2017, 04:02:10 PM
I don't care how many speeds an automatic has- is that awful Torque Converter lag any better in the fancier high-HP autos??
High HP does a good job of making the transmission less relevant no matter what.
One issue I had with the DCT was getting a decent launch in the rain... It's hard to control the clutch engagement pressure, what rpm it dumps the rpms at, and then deal with the turbo spooling and boost when you only have a single pedal :hmm:
Quote from: r0tor on April 25, 2017, 10:07:59 AM
One issue I had with the DCT was getting a decent launch in the rain... It's hard to control the clutch engagement pressure, what rpm it dumps the rpms at, and then deal with the turbo spooling and boost when you only have a single pedal :hmm:
Lack of control when launching is my biggest gripe with all autos, including SMG/DSG boxes. Particularly in inclement weather. On a race track, you are seldom launching from a dead stop, so that largely falls out of the equation. In daily driving, not so much.
That is my one annoyance with the G. When it's wet it's like starting on ice.
I've never driven on a track, but I know I prefer an automatic off road and that's about it. Granted, it will be a long time before I own another car/sedan and I wouldn't want a truck with a manual anyways. But damn, A4 spoiled me on manuals. I've yet to drive one as nice. Thing was a joy to row.
When I bought my Miata in 2013 I hadn't driven a manual car since 2003. That car's clutch and transmission were so beautiful I hopped in and it was like I had been driving manual every day. Never stalled the car, never had any issues with mis-shifts or spinning the tires (except when it was raining and the kids were outside :mrcool: ).
Quote from: GoCougs on April 24, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
Well, if the goal it to chase ever higher performance and efficiency, manuals are definitely on the way out.
DCTs are interesting but it'd be mega complicated to make them have the smoothness and driveability of a slushie AT.
The 8 sp ZF slushie was the tipping point and the new GM/Ford 10 sp AT in the ZL1 looks to be the beginning of the end.
Bingo. But by what metric? Is the added weight, complexity, and cost of repair worth it in exchange for the 1-2mpg improvement in EPA-cycle testing?
Why shouldn't our goal be to build a simple, robust, cheap-to-repair transmission that also gets decent mileage? You know, like a manual...
I think it has way more to do with market demand. There's not enough people who know how to drive stick or have the desire to learn.
Quote from: Tave on April 28, 2017, 01:46:07 PM
Bingo. But by what metric? Is the added weight, complexity, and cost of repair worth it in exchange for the 1-2mpg improvement in EPA-cycle testing?
Why shouldn't our goal be to build a simple, robust, cheap-to-repair transmission that also gets decent mileage? You know, like a manual...
I think it has way more to do with market demand. There's not enough people who know how to drive stick or have the desire to learn.
Ain't that the truth. My manual transmission weighs half as much as an old automatic - probably 1/3 as much as a new auto.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 28, 2017, 01:57:41 PM
Ain't that the truth. My manual transmission weighs half as much as an old automatic - probably 1/3 as much as a new auto.
Old auto, sure. New auto, sincerely doubt it. That gap has been pretty much closed.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 30, 2017, 09:06:36 PM
Old auto, sure. New auto, sincerely doubt it. That gap has been pretty much closed.
Weight? 10 speed auto has gotta be YUUUUGGGGEEE
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 30, 2017, 09:37:12 PM
Weight? 10 speed auto has gotta be YUUUUGGGGEEE
It's about the same size as their old 6 speed
Quote from: 68_427 on April 30, 2017, 09:46:52 PM
It's about the same size as their old 6 speed
Huh, nice. Okay, so only twice as heavy
Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 30, 2017, 10:20:50 PM
Huh, nice. Okay, so only twice as heavy
It's like 220-230lbs. At least the version in the Raptor is.
Yea new autos are small. Thank you based metallurgy
Small? The six speed in my Miata is probably only like 70 pounds. The big beefy Tremec 7spd GM is pairing with the 8 and 10spd autos is a svelte 140 pounds.
A ~100 pound weight savings on a single part is absolutely enormous. And not only is the manual lighter; it's cheaper to maintain, cheaper to repair, less likely to fail, and carries little-to-no real world performance penalty. From an object engineering costs standpoint, it's a no-brainer. But people by and large will pay a premium to deal with the added complexity because they value transmission automation highly.
With the advent of widespread electric cars and fully autonomous driving, I predict the AT to be a dead-end itself, anyways.
Yea, traditional manuals are much heavier then manuals and DCT's and also manuals typically don't have transmission cooler that further adds to the weight and also thermal issues.
Quote from: Tave on May 01, 2017, 07:41:22 AM
Small? The six speed in my Miata is probably only like 70 pounds. The big beefy Tremec 7spd GM is pairing with the 8 and 10spd autos is a svelte 140 pounds.
A ~100 pound weight savings on a single part is absolutely enormous. And not only is the manual lighter; it's cheaper to maintain, cheaper to repair, less likely to fail, and carries little-to-no real world performance penalty. From an object engineering costs standpoint, it's a no-brainer. But people by and large will pay a premium to deal with the added complexity because they value transmission automation highly.
With the advent of widespread electric cars and fully autonomous driving, I predict the AT to be a dead-end itself, anyways.
😂 Come on man. The Miata transmission has to handle about 170lb/ft. Those GM transmissions handle 700. I think transmissions in general weigh a bit more than that too
I agree with the rest.
I've had more problems with manual transmissions (mostly used) than automatics to be honest. Adding that human factor makes reliability more of a question mark; plus everyone knows the clutch is a wear item.
Quote from: Rich on May 01, 2017, 09:34:14 AM
😂 Come on man. The Miata transmission has to handle about 170lb/ft. Those GM transmissions handle 700. I think transmissions in general weigh a bit more than that too
I agree with the rest.
Don't c'mon man me, I quoted the weight of the Tremec 7spd that handles the same power, and GM/Ford will cram the 8 spd ZF or the new 10 spd into any and everything they can if people are willing to pay for it, regardless of power output.
Most modern manuals are gonna be in between the Miata's and the GM 7 speed. Like 100 lbs probably. Light enough for one guy to install it, versus a guaranteed two man job for an automatic.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 01, 2017, 09:45:26 AM
I've had more problems with manual transmissions (mostly used) than automatics to be honest. Adding that human factor makes reliability more of a question mark; plus everyone knows the clutch is a wear item.
I've had to replace a few clutches as well, but they have a fairly predictable service life and are relatively inexpensive. Never had any synchro or gear issues but I've known a couple people who have. Mind you, I can count them on one hand, while I've heard of so many people replacing or rebuilding their automatic that I'm honestly not sure if it's in the hundreds or thousands. That anecdotal experience seems to be backed up by the numbers, although admittedly the newest autos might have taken a quantum leap forward in reliability and we won't know until 5-10 yrs down the road when the data is in.
Yeah, even CVT autos are somehow starting to become fairly reliable.
Quote from: Tave on May 01, 2017, 11:00:28 AM
I've had to replace a few clutches as well, but they have a fairly predictable service life and are relatively inexpensive. Never had any synchro or gear issues but I've known a couple people who have. Mind you, I can count them on one hand, while I've heard of so many people replacing or rebuilding their automatic that I'm honestly not sure if it's in the hundreds or thousands. That anecdotal experience seems to be backed up by the numbers, although admittedly the newest autos might have taken a quantum leap forward in reliability and we won't know until 5-10 yrs down the road when the data is in.
Part of that is that there are so many more automatics in service. Just my experience of course, but all in all, when considering clutch service and linkage/cable issues, the automatics are maybe slightly less troublesome.
I think modern automatics are as, if not more reliable than manuals when you factor in the clutch. Between economy of scale and general design/manufacturing/metallurgy advances there's really nothing to fear in an automatic anymore IMO. It's now to the point where all we can ding them for is less than perfect shift quality/programming (i.e. ZF 9AT)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 01, 2017, 02:18:13 PM
I think modern automatics are as, if not more reliable than manuals when you factor in the clutch. Between economy of scale and general design/manufacturing/metallurgy advances there's really nothing to fear in an automatic anymore IMO. It's now to the point where all we can ding them for is less than perfect shift quality/programming (i.e. ZF 9AT)
My ZF 9 shifts perfectly. :huh:
3 of my 4 cars have had transmission problems. :mask: :lol:
To be fair the newest of those 3 was 23 years old when I bought it...
I've had a variety of 7spd+ autos as rentals lately and good gracious they've been absolutely miserable in terms of smoothness and anticipation. Laughable really.
I have no doubt that a few companies have programmed the ZF8spd to be as silky as advertised, but I'm wondering if that's going to prove the exception rather than the rule. It seems like the average auto has taken a quantum leap backwards in areas that were traditional strong suits.
The 7AT in the G is worse than good. Thankfully it has enough HP and aggression in the programming to over come that. But yea, ZF8 is in another league.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2017, 11:26:57 AM
The 7AT in the G is worse than good. Thankfully it has enough HP and aggression in the programming to over come that. But yea, ZF8 is in another league.
I think the programming is as important as the hardware. I've driven the ZF 8-speed in a few BMW's and Audi's and it didn't seem like much to write home about. Smooth enough but not particularly responsive (compared to DSG/DCT). Supposedly the Guilia shifts much quicker though.
Random question about automatics - what's the best way to wear them out quickly?
Because I do what I can to prolong the transmission life in my car - and I hope what I am doing will help keep it functional for a long period of time. For example, instead of keeping it in "D" 24/7 during long city/traffic stops, I always shift into "N" like you would in with a manual transmission in those situations.
Is that advisable?
I do this because I feel that keeping it in "D" means...
1) Less wear and tear on the brakes...
2) Less wear and tear on the driveshaft...
Of course my constant high-speed Autobahn speeding probably isn't doing the transmission life any favors, but so far it's holding up fine.
Yea I don't know that shifting into N does anything. Might actually be worse than leaving it alone.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2017, 01:28:14 PM
Yea I don't know that shifting into N does anything. Might actually be worse than leaving it alone.
But when I keep it in "D" I feel that I am unnecessarily causing wear and tear on some components. Shifting into "N" leads me to think that I am doing the components a favor because the driveshaft isn't turning and the brakes don't have to stop wheels that would be attempting to rotate.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 09, 2017, 01:07:25 PM
Random question about automatics - what's the best way to wear them out quickly?
Because I do what I can to prolong the transmission life in my car - and I hope what I am doing will help keep it functional for a long period of time. For example, instead of keeping it in "D" 24/7 during long city/traffic stops, I always shift into "N" like you would in with a manual transmission in those situations.
Is that advisable?
I do this because I feel that keeping it in "D" means...
1) Less wear and tear on the brakes...
2) Less wear and tear on the driveshaft...
Of course my constant high-speed Autobahn speeding probably isn't doing the transmission life any favors, but so far it's holding up fine.
Doing what you are doing--dropping the car into D from N while driving--is the best way to wear it out quickly. It's pretty much the only way you as the driver can damage an auto other than excessive torque-brake launching.
Holding a stationary car at rest causes no additional wear and tear on your brakes.
By trying to fix an imaginary problem you're risking serious damage to the tranmission.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 09, 2017, 01:32:12 PM
But when I keep it in "D" I feel that I am unnecessarily causing wear and tear on some components. Shifting into "N" leads me to think that I am doing the components a favor because the driveshaft isn't turning and the brakes don't have to stop wheels that would be attempting to rotate.
You aren't really preserving anything by doing that. Get one of those autostart/autostop vehicles.
(http://bestride.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Auto-Start-Stop-BMW.jpg)
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 09, 2017, 01:07:20 PM
I think the programming is as important as the hardware. I've driven the ZF 8-speed in a few BMW's and Audi's and it didn't seem like much to write home about. Smooth enough but not particularly responsive (compared to DSG/DCT). Supposedly the Guilia shifts much quicker though.
In a slushie AT however, programming is limited by the hardware. Slushies work on pressures and actuators/solenoids and fluid bodies and clutches, and to support more aggressive/responsive programming the corresponding elements have to more aggressive/responsive (stronger, higher quality, quicker, etc.).
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 09, 2017, 01:32:12 PM
But when I keep it in "D" I feel that I am unnecessarily causing wear and tear on some components. Shifting into "N" leads me to think that I am doing the components a favor because the driveshaft isn't turning and the brakes don't have to stop wheels that would be attempting to rotate.
In theory you'll actually cause more wear by doing that. When you sit in D at a standstill there is no wear on brakes or drive shaft as the engine just spins against the torque converter. When you shift to/from N you actually engage clutches, and in theory that causes a minute amount of wear. In reality though, neither method will cause more wear than the other, but it's simply less hassle to just leave the car in D.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 09, 2017, 02:48:03 PM
In theory you'll actually cause more wear by doing that. When you sit in D at a standstill there is no wear on brakes or drive shaft as the engine just spins against the torque converter. When you shift to/from N you actually engage clutches, and in theory that causes a minute amount of wear. In reality though, neither method will cause more wear than the other, but it's simply less hassle to just leave the car in D.
makes good sense- only time I've heard of shifting to N is in snow/ ice while trying to stop, which helps control a bit.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 09, 2017, 02:48:03 PM
In theory you'll actually cause more wear by doing that. When you sit in D at a standstill there is no wear on brakes or drive shaft as the engine just spins against the torque converter. When you shift to/from N you actually engage clutches, and in theory that causes a minute amount of wear. In reality though, neither method will cause more wear than the other, but it's simply less hassle to just leave the car in D.
Also, if he slips up on his timing and loads the engine before shifting back into D, it has the potential for more serious damage.
Torque converter crawl phobia!
I had an Uber driver who would constantly put his car in "N" at every stoplight. I bet he thought he was getting better gas mileage or preserving the transmission or something, but all it did was cause that annoying engagement jerk every time he would put it back in "D". And this was in Chicago, where you aren't going longer than a block without a red light.
In theory you can probably get a miniscule fuel efficiency gain by shifting into neutral. Leaving it in drive and letting the trans spin against the torque converter does put a tiny bit more load on the engine then the trans in neutral.
This is actually an advantage of a DCT with fuel mileage - you can engage the clutch while coasting and while stopped to reduce engine load
I shift to neutral sometimes in an automatic car just so I don't have to hold the brakes at a stop light.
I'm so lazy. :lol:
Quote from: Tave on August 09, 2017, 01:41:20 PM
Doing what you are doing--dropping the car into D from N while driving--is the best way to wear it out quickly. It's pretty much the only way you as the driver can damage an auto other than excessive torque-brake launching.
Holding a stationary car at rest causes no additional wear and tear on your brakes.
By trying to fix an imaginary problem you're risking serious damage to the tranmission.
Thank you. I will condition myself to keep it in "D" from now on. It really
is was an imaginary problem!
Quote from: shp4man on August 09, 2017, 01:42:14 PM
You aren't really preserving anything by doing that. Get one of those autostart/autostop vehicles.
Call me old fashioned, but I really don't like the feeling of Start-Stop. I've ridden in some cars and I found it really annoying when the engine would stop and start. The last time I rode in one such car was with Colin in a 2017 Range Rover diesel. He turned it off because he also found it annoying! :thumbsup:
Plus, wouldn't Start-Stop be something that really wears and tears on the mechanical components?
Quote from: GoCougs on August 09, 2017, 02:48:03 PM
In theory you'll actually cause more wear by doing that. When you sit in D at a standstill there is no wear on brakes or drive shaft as the engine just spins against the torque converter. When you shift to/from N you actually engage clutches, and in theory that causes a minute amount of wear. In reality though, neither method will cause more wear than the other, but it's simply less hassle to just leave the car in D.
Great info and advice. :cheers:
Quote from: Xer0 on August 09, 2017, 03:23:34 PM
I had an Uber driver who would constantly put his car in "N" at every stoplight. I bet he thought he was getting better gas mileage or preserving the transmission or something, but all it did was cause that annoying engagement jerk every time he would put it back in "D". And this was in Chicago, where you aren't going longer than a block without a red light.
I had a cab in Vegas who'd put in in PARK every time he came to a stop in bumper-to-bumper traffic! Crawl forward, stop, put in Park, wait for eight seconds, put in Drive, move a car length, stop, put in Park, wait five seconds, put in Drive, move 10 ft, stop, put in Park...
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2017, 03:40:30 PM
I shift to neutral sometimes in an automatic car just so I don't have to hold the brakes at a stop light.
I'm so lazy. :lol:
I'm paranoid about smartphone drones behind me seeing the brakelights turning off as a cue to accelerate into my rear bumper.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 09, 2017, 03:40:30 PM
I shift to neutral sometimes in an automatic car just so I don't have to hold the brakes at a stop light.
I'm so lazy. :lol:
I do it fairly often in the drive-thru if it's a long line.
Quote from: Laconian on August 09, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
I'm paranoid about smartphone drones behind me seeing the brakelights turning off as a cue to accelerate into my rear bumper.
If doing it in traffic, I just keep a light toe on the brake pedal so the lights stay on.
Quote from: Laconian on August 09, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
I'm paranoid about smartphone drones behind me seeing the brakelights turning off as a cue to accelerate into my rear bumper.
4 realz!
Quote from: 93JC on August 09, 2017, 06:44:59 PM
I had a cab in Vegas who'd put in in PARK every time he came to a stop in bumper-to-bumper traffic! Crawl forward, stop, put in Park, wait for eight seconds, put in Drive, move a car length, stop, put in Park, wait five seconds, put in Drive, move 10 ft, stop, put in Park...
weird and obnoxious!
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 09, 2017, 07:28:34 PM
I do it fairly often in the drive-thru if it's a long line.
Same here
Quote from: Laconian on August 09, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
Torque converter crawl phobia!
Get a higher stall converter and you won't have that problem. My dad's Camaro has a 2600-2800 rpm converter and doesn't budge until you push the gas.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on August 09, 2017, 04:01:29 PM
Great info and advice. :cheers:
Slushiet ATs are the last weak link of the modern automobile. Other than keeping the maintenance up (which is usually zero as these days most ATs have lifetime lubrication - the G37 for example doesn't even have a transmission dipstick or fill tube) there's nothing that can be done to extend its life.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 09, 2017, 09:22:30 PM
Slushiet ATs are the last weak link of the modern automobile. Other than keeping the maintenance up (which is usually zero as these days most ATs have lifetime lubrication - the G37 for example doesn't even have a transmission dipstick or fill tube) there's nothing that can be done to extend its life.
I have a ZF 6-speed automatic in the BMW. Have not heard any major reliability complaints about it on the BMW 1-Series Forums. 50% of my driving is on highways and I do like to speed. I'd like to think that transmission was made for all that stress! :praise:
Quote from: Tave on August 09, 2017, 10:50:30 AM
I've had a variety of 7spd+ autos as rentals lately and good gracious they've been absolutely miserable in terms of smoothness and anticipation. Laughable really.
I have no doubt that a few companies have programmed the ZF8spd to be as silky as advertised, but I'm wondering if that's going to prove the exception rather than the rule. It seems like the average auto has taken a quantum leap backwards in areas that were traditional strong suits.
Automatics are the worst.
Quote from: Laconian on August 09, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
I'm paranoid about smartphone drones behind me seeing the brakelights turning off as a cue to accelerate into my rear bumper.
I usually sit at lights/trains/whatever in neutral with my foot off the brake. Whenever I see a car approaching, I put the brake on until they stop.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
I usually sit at lights/trains/whatever in neutral with my foot off the brake. Whenever I see a car approaching, I put the brake on until they stop.
Yep, exactly.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
I usually sit at lights/trains/whatever in neutral with my foot off the brake. Whenever I see a car approaching, I put the brake on until they stop.
Do you have your foot off the clutch pedal as well or keep it depressed?
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 10, 2017, 04:24:55 PM
Do you have your foot off the clutch as well or keep it depressed?
Why would you keep the clutch in if you're in neutral?
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
I usually sit at lights/trains/whatever in neutral with my foot off the brake. Whenever I see a car approaching, I put the brake on until they stop.
That, too.
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 10, 2017, 04:24:55 PM
Do you have your foot off the clutch pedal as well or keep it depressed?
Depends on when I got to the light and whether or not I know how long of a light it is.
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
I usually sit at lights/trains/whatever in neutral with my foot off the brake. Whenever I see a car approaching, I put the brake on until they stop.
Dito. Although, I've been noticing that a lot of MT drivers around me will still keep the brake pressed standing on even ground. I'm not sure why. One of my favorite things about a manual is that I don't have to constantly be on the brake.
Quote from: Xer0 on August 10, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
Dito. Although, I've been noticing that a lot of MT drivers around me will still keep the brake pressed standing on even ground. I'm not sure why. One of my favorite things about a manual is that I don't have to constantly be on the brake.
It's such a simple and strange pleasure, but I'm with you. Every time I'm in an automatic car, I forget to hold the car on the brake at least once.
Quote from: Xer0 on August 10, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
Dito. Although, I've been noticing that a lot of MT drivers around me will still keep the brake pressed standing on even ground. I'm not sure why. One of my favorite things about a manual is that I don't have to constantly be on the brake.
I feel like ground that flat is pretty rare (and I live in South Jersey, which is basically a giant sandbar with a thin layer of topsoil). Even in my garage if I don't have the brake or emergency brake the car will slowly start to roll forward. Most roads have at least some incline to them IME.
Plenty of it around here, despite general hilliness. That's what happens when basically your entire county was at one point covered in mines, where flat land is created on purpose for roads, railroads, and facilities...which eventually become towns and streets. :lol:
Around here (Chicago FWIW) there are very few roads that I have to actually hold the brakes on. I can't tell you the last time I did. I still engage the parking brake when I park the car though cause I'm paranoid, but truthfully, I probably don't need to.
I keep the brake applied while stopped... I was once rammed into by a Mexican at a stop light and almost succeeded in pushing me into the car in front of me
Quote from: r0tor on August 11, 2017, 09:27:37 AM
I keep the brake applied while stopped... I was once rammed into by a Mexican at a stop light and almost succeeded in pushing me into the car in front of me
Yeah, which is why you keep the brakes on till traffic has stopped behind you.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on August 11, 2017, 09:34:21 AM
Yeah, which is why you keep the brakes on till traffic has stopped behind you.
We were all stopped for probably a good minute... He reached down to pick up his taco, foot pegged the gas WOT, and held it there for way too long
Quote from: Raza on August 10, 2017, 05:24:41 PM
Depends on when I got to the light and whether or not I know how long of a light it is.
I only ask because it saves wear and tear on the throw-out bearing by slipping the transmission into neutral when coming to a stop and letting the clutch pedal back out; but maybe they're a bit more robust these days.
It became such a reflex action with me that when I slammed into the front wheel of a Cadillac making an illegal turn in front of me, I found myself sitting in the car with the car idling in neutral declutched. The only problem with that was that the radiator had been pushed back into the fan and it was making a loud grating noise. I had the presence of mind to turn the ignition switch off.