You can only pick one, and there is a right and wrong answer.
Rebooted Star Trek film series aside, they aren't really comparable. One is serious SciFi and the other a space opera.
Quote from: MX793 on May 15, 2017, 06:28:13 AM
Rebooted Star Trek film series aside, they aren't really comparable. One is serious SciFi and the other a space opera.
Semi-serious sci-fi. They make a lot of shit up to drive plot points or make statements.
They're comparable because they are both arguably the biggest science fiction enterprises in pop culture, and their names sound the same.
If I have to pick, I'll go with Star Trek.
Star Wars, of course. The only good things about Star Trek were TNG and the rebooted movies.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 06:38:24 AM
Semi-serious sci-fi. They make a lot of shit up to drive plot points or make statements.
They're comparable because they are both arguably the biggest science fiction enterprises in pop culture, and their names sound the same.
If I have to pick, I'll go with Star Trek.
There's very little science in Star Wars. It's a sword & sorcery yarn with space ships and laser guns.
I like both to a degree, but preferred Star Wars.
Quote from: MX793 on May 15, 2017, 07:18:42 AM
There's very little science in Star Wars. It's a sword & sorcery yarn with space ships and laser guns.
I was calling Trek semi-serious.
Star Wars is populated by magical space wizards.
Star Wars. Star Trek stopped being truly what it was after TNG finished it's series. As bad as a couple of the Star Wars films has been, some of the animated series has turned out ok.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. They're both good. Biggest difference? May the force be with you.
Quote from: Northlands on May 15, 2017, 07:33:41 AM
Star Wars. Star Trek stopped being truly what it was after TNG finished it's series. As bad as a couple of the Star Wars films has been, some of the animated series has turned out ok.
For me the high point of my Star Trek fandom is Deep Space Nine. Best series IMHO and Sisko was the best Captain. :praise:
Neither has ever compelled me.
Star Trek is legit sci-fi (deep, thoughtful, purposeful) and Star Wars is fantasy (light, fluffy, magic). So of course Star Trek by a million miles or more. The separation is the writing, delivery and amount of content.
As to Star Trek, 80% of it is The Next Generation, and then The Original Series, then DS9 and then some of the feature films (the reboots are great, and better than the Star Wars reboots I might add).
I also read The Next Generation books - I've read most of them, I'd say at least 200. The quality has fallen off in recent years unfortunately, no doubt because TNG is but a distant memory and it's not attracting the writing talent.
They're both pretty bad :huh:
Quote from: MrH on May 15, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
They're both pretty bad :huh:
you don't like anything fun, tho
Likely one of the few who watched Star Trek when it originally debuted in the '60s so I'm inclined to favour it; it being a giant leap forward in sci-fi entertainment.
I never really understood the whole concept of Star Wars though I did go with my son to see it when it first came out. Besides, I never cared much for Princess Leia and her goofy hairdo and considered Luke Skywalker too much of a wimp. The only character I liked in the whole series was Obi-Wan Kenobi as played by Alec Guinness; and they got rid of him far too quickly.
Star Wars has no character development. You never get to know any given planet for more than 20 minutes at a time. Most of the characters are standins that represent their entire races - they are basically uninteresting as individuals. The names they choose are childish and the morality is unambiguous. Star Trek is the opposite of all that. Trek wins.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 15, 2017, 12:15:42 PM
Likely one of the few who watched Star Trek when it originally debuted in the '60s so I'm inclined to favour it; it being a giant leap forward in sci-fi entertainment.
I never really understood the whole concept of Star Wars though I did go with my son to see it when it first came out. Besides, I never cared much for Princess Leia and her goofy hairdo and considered Luke Skywalker too much of a wimp. The only character I liked in the whole series was Obi-Wan Kenobi as played by Alec Guinness; and they got rid of him far too quickly.
Han Solo was always cool
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 12:28:10 PM
Han Solo was always cool
I suppose. Never as cool as Obi-Wan Kenobi, imo.
Quote from: FoMoJo on May 15, 2017, 12:45:01 PM
I suppose. Never as cool as Obi-Wan Kenobi, imo.
Alec Guinness hated his role, and thought it was fairy tale nonsense that was going to be the end of George Lucas's career.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
Alec Guinness hated his role, and thought it was fairy tale nonsense that was going to be the end of George Lucas's career.
A couple of his letters, presumably...
I have been offered a movie (20th Cent. Fox) which I may accept, if they come up with proper money. London and N. Africa, starting in mid-March. Science fiction – which gives me pause – but is to be directed by Paul [sic] Lucas who did "American Graffiti, which makes me feel I should. Big part. Fairy-tale rubbish but could be interesting perhaps.... new rubbish dialogue reaches me every other day on wadges of pink paper – and none of it makes my character clear or even bearable. I just think, thankfully, of the lovely bread, which will help me keep going until next April even if Yahoo collapses in a week ... I must off to studio and work with a dwarf (very sweet – and he has to wash in a bidet) and your fellow countrymen Mark Hamill and Tennyson (that can't be right) Ford. Ellison (? – No!) – well, a rangy, languid young man who is probably intelligent and amusing. But Oh, God, God, they make me feel ninety – and treat me as if I was 106. – Oh, Harrison Ford – ever heard of him?Still, he elevated the film and, apparently, was appreciative of the money.
Alec Guinness, in many respects, is still my favourite actor. His role in Bridge on the River Kwai, is unforgettable.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Wars because it's lighthearted fun where only a small percentage of the fans are snobby about how good or serious or scientific it is, as opposed to a huge percentage of Trek fans.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on May 15, 2017, 07:36:47 AM
For me the high point of my Star Trek fandom is Deep Space Nine. Best series IMHO and Sisko was the best Captain. :praise:
Yeah, it's difficult to ask "Star Trek vs. Star Wars?" and not elaborate further, because both properties have had their names attached to schlock.
The only Trek really worth one's time were:
- the original series, simply for having been there first (although if you're a fan and have never seen the film Forbidden Planet from 1956 you'll be amazed at similar it was to Star Trek despite being a decade older)
- The Next Generation
- Deep Space Nine
Voyager and
Enterprise had their moments, but overall were a step far below the aforementioned. The movies were hit or miss: over time I've come to appreciate
The Motion Picture more but it is still inescapably a snooze-fest,
The Wrath of Khan is classic,
The Search for Spock is meh,
The Voyage Home was funny,
The Final Frontier was not,
The Undiscovered Country was a great send-off for the aged group from the TV show,
Generations was meh,
First Contact was great,
Insurrection was meh and
Nemesis was flat-out bad. The new movies are utterly forgettable.
On that basis can I really say "Star Trek!" when asked this question? It's pretty hard to make the argument when a lot of it, looking back, was mediocre at best.
But, on the other hand, I can't in good conscience just exclaim "Star Wars!" either. Can anyone, given the 'prequel' trilogy's existence? "Episodes" I, II and III sullied the rest of the films; they told a story—that we'd already known the outcome to decades before—so poorly that they dragged the old movies down with them. They are just unabashedly awful in a way no Star Trek property ever sank to.
If you'd asked this question when I was a little kid I would have probably said Star Wars. If you'd asked this question in the mid '90s I'd probably say Star Trek. If you asked this question of me about 15 years ago I probably would have sheepishly tried to answer "both" but deep down I would have meant "neither", sadly. Now? I loved
Rogue One, which I cannot say of the new Trek movies, but
The Force Awakens was merely okay (which was enough, at the time). I don't have high hopes for the new Star Trek series that 's supposedly coming out in the fall, and I'm keeping my expectations low for
The Last Jedi too. Looking back on it all
The Empire Strikes Back was a higher 'high' than any Trek property, but overall there's much more good 'Trek' out there than 'Wars'.
I agree with most of what you said.
They are hard to compare. TNG and DS9 deliver hundreds of hours of quality entertainment, interrupted by some shitty holodeck or time travel non-plots. Star Wars is just some movies motivated by the usual three-act story arcs. I hear the Clone Wars series is pretty good, but I haven't seen more than a couple episodes.
Quote from: 93JC on May 15, 2017, 05:14:40 PM
Yeah, it's difficult to ask "Star Trek vs. Star Wars?" and not elaborate further, because both properties have had their names attached to schlock.
The only Trek really worth one's time were:
- the original series, simply for having been there first (although if you're a fan and have never seen the film Forbidden Planet from 1956 you'll be amazed at similar it was to Star Trek despite being a decade older)
- The Next Generation
- Deep Space Nine
Voyager and Enterprise had their moments, but overall were a step far below the aforementioned. The movies were hit or miss: over time I've come to appreciate The Motion Picture more but it is still inescapably a snooze-fest, The Wrath of Khan is classic, The Search for Spock is meh, The Voyage Home was funny, The Final Frontier was not, The Undiscovered Country was a great send-off for the aged group from the TV show, Generations was meh, First Contact was great, Insurrection was meh and Nemesis was flat-out bad. The new movies are utterly forgettable.
On that basis can I really say "Star Trek!" when asked this question? It's pretty hard to make the argument when a lot of it, looking back, was mediocre at best.
But, on the other hand, I can't in good conscience just exclaim "Star Wars!" either. Can anyone, given the 'prequel' trilogy's existence? "Episodes" I, II and III sullied the rest of the films; they told a story—that we'd already known the outcome to decades before—so poorly that they dragged the old movies down with them. They are just unabashedly awful in a way no Star Trek property ever sank to.
If you'd asked this question when I was a little kid I would have probably said Star Wars. If you'd asked this question in the mid '90s I'd probably say Star Trek. If you asked this question of me about 15 years ago I probably would have sheepishly tried to answer "both" but deep down I would have meant "neither", sadly. Now? I loved Rogue One, which I cannot say of the new Trek movies, but The Force Awakens was merely okay (which was enough, at the time). I don't have high hopes for the new Star Trek series that 's supposedly coming out in the fall, and I'm keeping my expectations low for The Last Jedi too. Looking back on it all The Empire Strikes Back was a higher 'high' than any Trek property, but overall there's much more good 'Trek' out there than 'Wars'.
Also on the Star Wars front were the spin-off TV series, which were also hit or miss (more hit than miss, IMO). The original Droids and Ewoks animated series from the mid-80s weren't particularly good. Both Clone Wars animated series (the mini-series of shorts by Genndy Tartakovsky and the longer running CGI series) were excellent. The newer Rebels series hasn't been quite as good as its immediate predecessors (the best episodes are as good as anything from The Clone Wars series, but not as consistently good), but is decent.
FWIW, the Forbidden Planet was intended as a sci-if adaptation of Shakespeare's The Tempest, and it holds up pretty well even today.
Quote from: Laconian on May 15, 2017, 05:25:21 PM
I agree with most of what you said.
They are hard to compare. TNG and DS9 deliver hundreds of hours of quality entertainment, interrupted by some shitty holodeck or time travel non-plots. Star Wars is just some movies motivated by the usual three-act story arcs. I hear the Clone Wars series is pretty good, but I haven't seen more than a couple episodes.
I would put Wrath of Khan on the same shelf as The Empire Strikes Back.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 07:30:09 AM
I was calling Trek semi-serious.
Star Wars is populated by magical space wizards.
Q
Quote from: Laconian on May 15, 2017, 12:19:10 PM
Star Wars has no character development. You never get to know any given planet for more than 20 minutes at a time. Most of the characters are standins that represent their entire races - they are basically uninteresting as individuals. The names they choose are childish and the morality is unambiguous. Star Trek is the opposite of all that. Trek wins.
The morality is unambiguous only if you don't think about it (and take some Lucas-fault liberties in the process), and the characters don't need a lot of development because they're archetypes that have already been developed over 5000 years. In the TV shows, there is substantially more development, though, because it's such a longer form format.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 15, 2017, 03:31:00 PM
Wars because it's lighthearted fun where only a small percentage of the fans are snobby about how good or serious or scientific it is, as opposed to a huge percentage of Trek fans.
:clap: :clap:
Quote from: MX793 on May 15, 2017, 05:34:05 PM
Also on the Star Wars front were the spin-off TV series, which were also hit or miss (more hit than miss, IMO). The original Droids and Ewoks animated series from the mid-80s weren't particularly good. Both Clone Wars animated series (the mini-series of shorts by Genndy Tartakovsky and the longer running CGI series) were excellent. The newer Rebels series hasn't been quite as good as its immediate predecessors (the best episodes are as good as anything from The Clone Wars series, but not as consistently good), but is decent.
The best Rebels episodes are better than the best Clone Wars episodes, IMO, but I agree that they vary a lot, down to being not very good pretty often.
The Tartakovsky animations were brilliant, a mile above the others, but I was a big Samurai Jack fan (for the first season) back in the day.
Q is.
If you can find him. I mean, why would he lie?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 15, 2017, 05:36:53 PM
FWIW, the Forbidden Planet was intended as a sci-if adaptation of Shakespeare's The Tempest, and it holds up pretty well even today.
It is one of my favorite movies, and holds up today, save for some of the piloting of the ship in the beginning.
There are some parallels with
The Tempest but it doesn't hold as a retelling, IMO particularly the ending, and the ultimate lesson. It is more
Frankenstein, and the perils of humanity with "god" technology (and still way far away from a retelling). I think it stands alone plenty well.
I can't recommend it enough.
Quote from: Rupert on May 15, 2017, 07:01:18 PM
Q
"Q" (John de Lancie) both as the actor and the dialog given to him was leagues beyond anything in Star Wars.
Why didn't he have a bigger career? I loved how he played Q to the hilt.
I'm not sure if screen acting was his primary gig/focus, but just in general, there are tons of very talented artistic types that never make it big. Plus, probably looks had something to do with it - not a typical hunk/lead but also not a quirky sideman looker like WH Macy or Steve Buscemi.
Star Wars. From 1977 to 1999, nothing inspired so many kids to act out their fantasies as did the Star Wars trilogy. Yoda and Vader quotes were instantly recognizable and often repeated. The concept of the "Force" was even religion to some fanatics. Every kid has played with a toy light saber. There was so much international fervor for Phantom Menace. It was palpable in the streets. People waiting hours in line to watch on opening night. People even payed money to just see the original 3 movies again in the theater with some added irrelevant digitally created creatures thrown in and brighter colors. And then George Lucas screwed it all up with the greatest movie disappointment in history.
Star Trek and all its spin offs is niche. It's probably better written, overall better acted, better whatever. But Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with.
Hmm, I dunno man, I was a kid in that time frame and by the early '90s Star Wars seemed to have very little pop culture relevancy. I never played with a toy light sabre; by the late '80s they didn't exist anymore. When they re-released the original films to theatres in 1997 there was an excitement for it but it came from the adults who were old enough to have seen and vividly remembered when the first one came out 20 years prior, not the kids. There was indeed a yuuuge amount of hype in anticipation of The Phantom Menace, in no small part because of the marketing machine that Lucasfilm/20th Century Fox had become. The disappointment was palpable too, from the opening crawl's prattling about trade embargoes or some bullshit.
I think you vastly underestimate how much currency, say, Spock's hand gesture has in pop culture.
The success of Star Wars unleashed a entire new generation of Sci-Fi movies and franchises. From Battlestar Galactica, to Buck Rogers; even arguably to Star Trek TNG, they all existed because Star Wars showed what a succesful franchise in that genre can be.
Quote from: 93JC on May 16, 2017, 03:58:22 PM
Hmm, I dunno man, I was a kid in that time frame and by the early '90s Star Wars seemed to have very little pop culture relevancy. I never played with a toy light sabre; by the late '80s they didn't exist anymore. When they re-released the original films to theatres in 1997 there was an excitement for it but it came from the adults who were old enough to have seen and vividly remembered when the first one came out 20 years prior, not the kids. There was indeed a yuuuge amount of hype in anticipation of The Phantom Menace, in no small part because of the marketing machine that Lucasfilm/20th Century Fox had become. The disappointment was palpable too, from the opening crawl's prattling about trade embargoes or some bullshit.
I think you vastly underestimate how much currency, say, Spock's hand gesture has in pop culture.
Prior to the prequels in the 90s, it probably had to do with parents more than anything. But I was born in '87 and I was absolutely a Star Wars fan prior to the prequels coming out since I grew up watching them thanks to my parents.
Today, it's undeniable that Star Wars is the bigger franchise. In the US, The Force Awakens grossed almost 1.5x as much as all three of the Star Trek reboots combined, and Rogue One still did twice as well as the first (and most successful) Trek reboot. It's just something that appeals to a larger audience.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 16, 2017, 04:13:51 PM
Prior to the prequels in the 90s, it probably had to do with parents more than anything. But I was born in '87 and I was absolutely a Star Wars fan prior to the prequels coming out since I grew up watching them thanks to my parents.
Today, it's undeniable that Star Wars is the bigger franchise. In the US, The Force Awakens grossed almost 1.5x as much as all three of the Star Trek reboots combined, and Rogue One still did twice as well as the first (and most successful) Trek reboot. It's just something that appeals to a larger audience.
Bit older than you, but I was born, after the original films were in theaters. I think I first saw the Star Wars films in the late 80s. My parents weren't (and still aren't) much into scifi-type movies and definitely not Star Wars fans. Not sure they'd even seen any of the Star Wars movies before we watched them as a family. I was immediately hooked. Most of my friends were introduced at around the same time and most of them were equally enthralled. I remember pretending wiffle ball bats were lightsabers and have sword fights with my friends every afternoon after school. At the same time, the marketing machine had gone cold. It was a hugely successful movie series that had been played out and now people were on to the next new thing. They weren't making Star Wars toys or other merchandise anymore. It had largely fallen off the map. I remember being really jealous of one of my friends, who had much older siblings, who had the full set of original Star Wars action figures that got handed down to him. They had long since stopped making them by that point and the only place you could get them is if you scored some at a yard sale or at collectible toy expos (where you'd pay an arm and a leg for a mint-condition one).
I prefer the epics like Prometheus, Alien, 2001: A Space Odyssey, etc. when it comes to the space stuff. I get turned off by lots of sequels, prequels, and "next generations." Usually just feels like a money grab to me. Three movies for a series is really enough, IMO. Though it's not like I don't appreciate the depth and work that goes into things like Star Wars or Star Trek. I've honestly never watched Star Trek, so I can't knock it 'til I rock it, but it's not my cup of tea.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 15, 2017, 09:58:38 PM
"Q" (John de Lancie) both as the actor and the dialog given to him was leagues beyond anything in Star Wars.
You mean he isn't that annoying in person? After Wesley Crusher, Q is probably the most annoying in a bad way Trek character.
Maybe third after Neelix or fourth after Ezri Dax. Or fifth after Neelix's girlfriend in S01...
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 16, 2017, 04:13:51 PM
Prior to the prequels in the 90s, it probably had to do with parents more than anything. But I was born in '87 and I was absolutely a Star Wars fan prior to the prequels coming out since I grew up watching them thanks to my parents.
Today, it's undeniable that Star Wars is the bigger franchise. In the US, The Force Awakens grossed almost 1.5x as much as all three of the Star Trek reboots combined, and Rogue One still did twice as well as the first (and most successful) Trek reboot. It's just something that appeals to a larger audience.
You and I are about the same age, and when the remasters hit the movie theaters in the mid to late 90s, my friends and I rushed out to see them. Seeing Empire Strikes Back with my friends Matt and Danny in 5th grade is one of my favorite childhood memories.
Quote from: Raza on May 30, 2017, 09:41:04 PM
You and I are about the same age, and when the remasters hit the movie theaters in the mid to late 90s, my friends and I rushed out to see them. Seeing Empire Strikes Back with my friends Matt and Danny in 5th grade is one of my favorite childhood memories.
Damn you fuckers make me feel old.
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 16, 2017, 08:07:33 PM
Prometheus, Alien
Quote
I get turned off by lots of sequels, prequels, and "next generations."
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/28/28513377646ba5ecd6622f6247f603fcb5d49b3a359cef4f5b3eae07f9691dff.jpg)
Alien, Aliens, Alien III, Alien: Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator (crossover), Alien vs. Predator Requiem (crossover), Prometheus (prequel), Alien: Covenant (prequel).
There are as many Alien movies as there are Fast and Furious movies and Star Wars movies. A quadrilogy, two crossovers, and two prequels. And I bet Alien: Covenant will have a sequel too.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 30, 2017, 09:49:56 PM
Damn you fuckers make me feel old.
I make myself feel old.
Quote from: Raza on May 30, 2017, 09:41:04 PM
You and I are about the same age, and when the remasters hit the movie theaters in the mid to late 90s, my friends and I rushed out to see them. Seeing Empire Strikes Back with my friends Matt and Danny in 5th grade is one of my favorite childhood memories.
I think you've got a couple of years on me, but yeah, I remember my dad taking me to see Ep IV in the theater, and how awesome it was to watch the movie in a theater instead of on VHS at home (which I actually still have :lol: They're the only VHSs I've hung on to).
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 30, 2017, 10:00:09 PM
I think you've got a couple of years on me, but yeah, I remember my dad taking me to see Ep IV in the theater, and how awesome it was to watch the movie in a theater instead of on VHS at home (which I actually still have :lol: They're the only VHSs I've hung on to).
I'm only a year older than you. Born 1986. I just embrace my oldness.
Quote from: Raza on May 30, 2017, 09:52:28 PM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/28/28513377646ba5ecd6622f6247f603fcb5d49b3a359cef4f5b3eae07f9691dff.jpg)
Alien, Aliens, Alien III, Alien: Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator (crossover), Alien vs. Predator Requiem (crossover), Prometheus (prequel), Alien: Covenant (prequel).
There are as many Alien movies as there are Fast and Furious movies and Star Wars movies. A quadrilogy, two crossovers, and two prequels. And I bet Alien: Covenant will have a sequel too.
Alien: Covenant was definitely written with a sequel in mind. It was a bit of a bust at the box office though so I am not sure if it will get made.
I think I also heard they are considering a new sequel to Aliens, which would essentially ignore Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection.
Also worth noting that Prometheus essentially wiped out the "continuity" of the Alien v Predator movies. IIRC the new Star Wars films still consider all the crappy movies (prequels) as canon.
Fun fact: Even though I am not remotely a fan of the AvP movies, the first one was actually based on a story written by the guys who created (wrote) the original Alien movie. The first AvP movie introduced Weyland (played by the same actor who played the Bishop android) and then the second movie introduced Yutani at the end.
There's an Easter egg in Prometheus that strongly hints at a link between Peter Wayland and Eldon Tyrell (from Blade runner).
Quote from: MX793 on May 31, 2017, 07:04:31 AM
There's an Easter egg in Prometheus that strongly hints at a link between Peter Wayland and Eldon Tyrell (from Blade runner).
I didn't catch that myself but I heard a reviewer mention it before. Do you know what the easter egg/hint/link actually is?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/moviepilot.com/posts/3889464/amp (https://www.google.com/amp/s/moviepilot.com/posts/3889464/amp)
I used to enjoy Star Trek when I was younger, but seeing the reruns now on TV reminds me of how campy and cheesy many episodes are. I never got into Star Wars and to this day I have not seen a single Star Wars film, so I guess my answer will be Star Trek, especially helped by the great story arc of Deep Space 9 (despite having also many crap episodes!). :ohyeah:
By the way, for those of you who are SciFi geeks, this page reviews Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica etc. in detail on an episode-to-episode, season-to-season and movie style. The comments section is especially entertaining. :ohyeah:
http://www.jammersreviews.com/
The top 5-10 ST:TNG episodes seal the deal over which is better:
The Inner Light
The Defector
Measure of a Man
Tapestry
Cause and Effect
Darmok
Lower Decks
Yesterday's Enterprise
All Good Things...
Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 16, 2017, 04:13:51 PM
Prior to the prequels in the 90s, it probably had to do with parents more than anything. But I was born in '87 and I was absolutely a Star Wars fan prior to the prequels coming out since I grew up watching them thanks to my parents.
I'm a little older than you and I was a fan of both, and grew up with Star Wars too, due entirely to home video. Like I said, by the late '80s Star Wars was in many respects passé and a fad that was seemingly over, succinctly echoed by MX793:
Quote from: MX793 on May 16, 2017, 05:01:02 PM
At the same time, the marketing machine had gone cold. It was a hugely successful movie series that had been played out and now people were on to the next new thing. They weren't making Star Wars toys or other merchandise anymore. It had largely fallen off the map. I remember being really jealous of one of my friends, who had much older siblings, who had the full set of original Star Wars action figures that got handed down to him. They had long since stopped making them by that point and the only place you could get them is if you scored some at a yard sale or at collectible toy expos (where you'd pay an arm and a leg for a mint-condition one).
:lol: I remember finding a Yoda action figure buried in the playground at my school; it was like an archaeological find. I imagine it would be especially hard for people born post-1990ish to believe but by the turn of that decade Star Wars really had "gone cold" and was "played out". That's really all I was remarking on, veeman's assertion, "
From 1977 to 1999, nothing inspired so many kids to act out their fantasies as did the Star Wars trilogy." I was there and I can say from about 1987 to 1997 that just wasn't true.
I feel 1987 and 1997 were the cut-offs because 1997 was when they re-released the "special editions" in theatres, which in no small part sold the idea of a prequel trilogy on Fox, and 1987 because that's the year
Spaceballs came out. Interest in Star Wars hit a nadir when it became the punchline to a joke. (The cynical part of me thinks Lucas wanted to make the prequel trilogy for no other reason than, as 'Yogurt' would put it: "
Moichandising! Moichandising!")
QuoteToday, it's undeniable that Star Wars is the bigger franchise. In the US, The Force Awakens grossed almost 1.5x as much as all three of the Star Trek reboots combined, and Rogue One still did twice as well as the first (and most successful) Trek reboot. It's just something that appeals to a larger audience.
At this point I can't deny that Star Wars makes more money, but that's not really what I was remarking on in the first place. Arguing Star Trek is culturally 'niche' is a little silly, I think. It's perhaps a little morbid but I think all the evidence one needs as proof that Star Trek is still relevant is the passing of Leonard Nimoy a couple years ago. He was 83 and had done very little acting other than Star Trek movies and guest appearances on TV since the 1980s, and there was still a huge popular outpouring of grief and sadness when it was announced that he'd died. No smaller than when Carrie Fisher died six months ago.
To say "
Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with," is, at best, naive. I don't think the "it made more money" argument holds water:
Avatar and
Titanic made more money (worldwide) than
The Force Awakens did but I wouldn't argue those movies are more culturally relevant. Adjusted for inflation
ET: The Extra-Terrestrial is still far higher grossing than
The Force Awakens, and I wouldn't argue it was particularly relevant past 1985ish.
Avatar too was but a passing fad.
I guess my overarching point is that there's a recency bias at work here.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 01, 2017, 12:59:41 PM
The top 5-10 ST:TNG episodes seal the deal over which is better:
The Inner Light
The Defector
Measure of a Man
Tapestry
Cause and Effect
Darmok
Lower Decks
Yesterday's Enterprise
All Good Things...
For you TNG buffs, the best TNG episode, "The Inner Light," debuted on this exact day 25 years ago.
Quote from: 93JC on June 01, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
I'm a little older than you and I was a fan of both, and grew up with Star Wars too, due entirely to home video. Like I said, by the late '80s Star Wars was in many respects passé and a fad that was seemingly over, succinctly echoed by MX793:
:lol: I remember finding a Yoda action figure buried in the playground at my school; it was like an archaeological find. I imagine it would be especially hard for people born post-1990ish to believe but by the turn of that decade Star Wars really had "gone cold" and was "played out". That's really all I was remarking on, veeman's assertion, "From 1977 to 1999, nothing inspired so many kids to act out their fantasies as did the Star Wars trilogy." I was there and I can say from about 1987 to 1997 that just wasn't true.
I feel 1987 and 1997 were the cut-offs because 1997 was when they re-released the "special editions" in theatres, which in no small part sold the idea of a prequel trilogy on Fox, and 1987 because that's the year Spaceballs came out. Interest in Star Wars hit a nadir when it became the punchline to a joke. (The cynical part of me thinks Lucas wanted to make the prequel trilogy for no other reason than, as 'Yogurt' would put it: "Moichandising! Moichandising!")
At this point I can't deny that Star Wars makes more money, but that's not really what I was remarking on in the first place. Arguing Star Trek is culturally 'niche' is a little silly, I think. It's perhaps a little morbid but I think all the evidence one needs as proof that Star Trek is still relevant is the passing of Leonard Nimoy a couple years ago. He was 83 and had done very little acting other than Star Trek movies and guest appearances on TV since the 1980s, and there was still a huge popular outpouring of grief and sadness when it was announced that he'd died. No smaller than when Carrie Fisher died six months ago.
To say "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with," is, at best, naive. I don't think the "it made more money" argument holds water: Avatar and Titanic made more money (worldwide) than The Force Awakens did but I wouldn't argue those movies are more culturally relevant. Adjusted for inflation ET: The Extra-Terrestrial is still far higher grossing than The Force Awakens, and I wouldn't argue it was particularly relevant past 1985ish. Avatar too was but a passing fad.
I guess my overarching point is that there's a recency bias at work here.
I stand by the statement "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with"
The Star Wars saga had three consecutive movies which captured the minds of hundreds of millions of young'uns globally. That was followed by nothing for about 20 years. That was followed by one of the biggest disappointments in cinematic history. A collective groan was let out because the religion of the Force was neutered by its very own creator, its very own god. One story line, one space opera, was supposed to be revived from the dead but instead of it being resurrected, it was defiled. Star Trek had some really good movies, some bad movies, and a niche group of very devoted Trekkies. It has had big cultural impact but not at the level of Star Wars. No collective groan or ruining of the very franchise itself ever occurred because of a poor Star Trek flick. 300 million Star Wars action figures were sold from 1978-1985. To put that in perspective there are currently 74 million persons under age 18 in the U.S.
I'm not saying that the Star Wars saga is a better movie. I'm saying its cultural impact was far greater.
In recent decades Harry Potter has had the greatest cultural impact as a literary and perhaps cinematic work among young'uns globally and has surpassed the impact Star Wars had. Nothing in the last decade or two comes close.
Star Wars made its impression on everybody, young and adult geeks alike.
Trek was and remains mostly an adult thing.
That alone makes Star Wars more influential.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 02, 2017, 10:31:59 AM
Star Wars made its impression on everybody, young and adult geeks alike.
Trek was and remains mostly an adult thing.
That alone makes Star Wars more influential.
Star Wars also has a larger appeal outside of the "geek" world.
Quote from: veeman on June 02, 2017, 07:37:19 AM
I stand by the statement "Star Wars is part of the fabric of our culture that Spock's hand gesture just can't compete with"
And you're still categorically wrong. :huh: :tounge:
Quote from: 93JC on June 01, 2017, 12:59:48 PM
I don't think the "it made more money" argument holds water: Avatar and Titanic made more money (worldwide) than The Force Awakens did but I wouldn't argue those movies are more culturally relevant.
I think it does. Avatar and Titanic made so much money primarily because, in one way or another, they were unique cinematic experiences, and Avatar didn't beat The Force Awakens (adjusted or not) in the domestic box office, which is an important distinction when we're talking about US/Canadian culture. The Force Awakens was damn near a remake of A New Hope. It really didn't bring anything new to the table. It was just a Star Wars movie that didn't suck, and that alone was enough for it to become the top grossing movie (unadjusted) and 11th top grossing movie (inflation adjusted) OF ALL TIME in the domestic box office.
Now I'm certainly not saying that Star Trek is culturally insignificant, and in the franchise's defense, Trek had a bigger impact through TV than in cinemas. But get a bunch of random US/Canadian citizens in a room, and I'd bet pretty good money that more people know what "No,
I am your father" is from than Spock's hand gesture; that more people recognize the Millennium Falcon than the USS Enterprise; that more people could tell you who Jar Jar Binks is than
any Trek character except maybe Spock.
I think the impact of Trek and Wars have been about equally deep, but Wars' impact has been much wider. I think anyone who knows who Luke is knows who Spock is, but I would guess far more people are familiar with the basics of Wars (the movies) than the basics of Trek (like maybe the best 20% of TOS and TNG episodes).
Quote from: Raza on May 30, 2017, 09:52:28 PM
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/28/28513377646ba5ecd6622f6247f603fcb5d49b3a359cef4f5b3eae07f9691dff.jpg)
Alien, Aliens, Alien III, Alien: Resurrection, Alien vs. Predator (crossover), Alien vs. Predator Requiem (crossover), Prometheus (prequel), Alien: Covenant (prequel).
There are as many Alien movies as there are Fast and Furious movies and Star Wars movies. A quadrilogy, two crossovers, and two prequels. And I bet Alien: Covenant will have a sequel too.
Indeed, and I've never seen or really intend to see any of those sequels/prequels. ;)
(but I see your point :lol:)
Of course, I've seen Prometheus. May watch the new Alien movie. But I don't watch them because I want to connect them...they can be viewed as totally stand-alone movies. Connecting all the dots is too much rabbit hole for me.
Make it so, numba one. ;)
Here is Star Trek vs. Star Wars for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCBwob65Nw
That is surprisingly well done. I would say it is fair and balanced. Star Wars fans do not get upset until the end.
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 03, 2017, 02:07:40 PM
Of course, I've seen Prometheus. May watch the new Alien movie. But I don't watch them because I want to connect them...they can be viewed as totally stand-alone movies. Connecting all the dots is too much rabbit hole for me.
Just watch Alien and Aliens and burn the rest.
Quote from: Raza on June 04, 2017, 01:50:00 PM
Just watch Alien and Aliens and burn the rest.
I believe that. I've never seen Alien, but the tidbits I've seen regarding its many sequels is part of what has kept me away from it...they look like trash. AvP looked like such a garbage series when the previews came out. I honestly didn't know they were connected for quite some time. I know the original Alien is highly regarded, but I haven't done it yet! Maybe this weekend.
Alien is brilliant! I also stayed away for a long time because the sequels looked horrible.
Alien was excellent. Jaws in space. Aliens was also excellent. The rest of them ranged from mediocre to bad (haven't seen Covenant yet).
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 06, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
I believe that. I've never seen Alien, but the tidbits I've seen regarding its many sequels is part of what has kept me away from it...they look like trash. AvP looked like such a garbage series when the previews came out. I honestly didn't know they were connected for quite some time. I know the original Alien is highly regarded, but I haven't done it yet! Maybe this weekend.
Alien is fantastic. It's a true horror movie, extremely well done. Aliens is a flat out action movie, but also extremely well done.
Quote from: Raza on June 08, 2017, 07:51:52 AM
Alien is fantastic. It's a true horror movie, extremely well done. Aliens is a flat out action movie, but also extremely well done.
The director's cut is the better version there; although there are too many aliens.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 08, 2017, 08:30:01 AM
The director's cut is the better version there; although there are too many aliens.
I think I've only seen the director's cut.
Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?
Quote from: Raza on June 08, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
I think I've only seen the director's cut.
Did it have the remote sentry guns?
Quote from: MX793 on June 08, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?
Yes. Haven't heard anything of it in a long time though.
Quote from: MX793 on June 08, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Anybody remember SeaQuest DSV?
Yes. Talking dolphin, right?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 09, 2017, 04:43:15 AM
That was the directors cut then.
That wasn't in the theatrical version?!
Quote from: Soup DeVille on June 09, 2017, 01:31:13 PM
Nope.
Well I'll be. Next you're going to tell me that in the director's cut of Titanic, the ship doesn't sink.
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.
Quote from: 93JC on June 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.
:lol:
It just dawned on me that both films were directed by the same person...
Quote from: 93JC on June 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.
:lol:
Quote from: 93JC on June 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
The director's cut of Titanic has a scene where the ship's crew set up sentry posts in the corridors in steerage, mowing down the Irishmen as they crash the gates to second-class.
Also in the director's cut, when the band sets up and plays to calm the passengers, they play a rendition Queen's "The Show Must Go On".
Quote from: MX793 on June 18, 2017, 12:53:44 PM
Also in the director's cut, when the band sets up and plays to calm the passengers, they play a rendition Queen's "The Show Must Go On".
I'd watch that.