301 hp. 8 sp AT. Flappy paddles. Quad exhaust. All new lighter and stiffer chassis. Should break into the 13s if it can put the power down.
(http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/01/2018-Toyota-Camry-XSE-V-6-rear-three-quarters.jpg)
Flappy paddles in a Camry? Why? :confused:
Hopefully they give it a Revoknuckle style front suspension and LSD, or the option for AWD. Otherwise......
To be fair though, the Maxima I drove did OK with conventional struts and an open diff. But yea this thing looks pretty sweet.
I don't get the "poser class" comment when you drive a G37, which is arguably the least nice out of all the C segment entry level lux cars
Are there really people that will buy a performance Camry? I mean I picture the typical Camry owner of being someone who does not care about cars and wants good value and reliability and nothing more.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 21, 2017, 12:20:11 PM
Are there really people that will buy a performance Camry? I mean I picture the typical Camry owner of being someone who does not care about cars and wants good value and reliability and nothing more.
The SE V6 ("performance" model) has been a fixture in the Camry lineup since 2007, so, apparently enough people are buying them...
Quote from: 2o6 on June 21, 2017, 09:22:50 AM
I don't get the "poser class" comment when you drive a G37, which is arguably the least nice out of all the C segment entry level lux cars
Not only was the G37 the best in class (you had to bump up to the S4 or M3 to getting something materially better), it was never in the poser class. Poser class would be the Q50 2.0T, which you'd have to be a lunatic to buy.
Is there anything more poser than a fwd 4 door Camry with body cladding and quad exhaust tips?
Quote from: Rockraven on June 21, 2017, 12:49:56 PM
Is there anything more poser than a fwd 4 door Camry with body cladding and quad exhaust tips?
...and flappy paddles on an eight speed?
Centimation... Centimated... You keep using this word but I don't think it means what you think that it means.
Also, it's not a real word (not in the dictionary).
Quote from: MX793 on June 21, 2017, 01:01:31 PM
Centimation... Centimated... You keep using this word but I don't think it means what you think that it means.
Also, it's not a real word (not in the dictionary).
In an alternate universe, Bizarro world, perhaps it has a meaning similar to decimate.
I always assumed he was using it in a sarcastic (sardonic?) way.
IIRC someone nitpicked his use of the term decimated. He then started using this term instead. I assumed he was using it in a clearly incorrect way (ie: "centimated" somehow being worse than decimated even though the phraseology would suggest that something being centimated is less extreme than it being decimated).
Quote from: GoCougs on June 21, 2017, 12:39:09 PM
The SE V6 ("performance" model) has been a fixture in the Camry lineup since 2007, so, apparently enough people are buying them...
Yeah, but weren't those 250/270-hp models with zero sporting pretensions?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 21, 2017, 01:29:11 PM
Yeah, but weren't those 250/270-hp models with zero sporting pretensions?
They had a sporty-looking set of body add-ons and bigger standard wheels...
Quote from: GoCougs on June 21, 2017, 12:41:20 PM
Not only was the G37 the best in class (you had to bump up to the S4 or M3 to getting something materially better), it was never in the poser class. Poser class would be the Q50 2.0T, which you'd have to be a lunatic to buy.
It's good you like your car, but the G cars are *okay*
The E90, F30, and whatever Audi and MB made are better luxury vehicles. Quieter, more refined. Maybe slower in base trim, but that can be fixed by buying a bigger engined model.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/camry/2018/2018-toyota-camry-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign&utm_content=594a7be404d30171fc381164&utm_medium&utm_source
Quote from: 2o6 on June 21, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
It's good you like your car, but the G cars are *okay*
The E90, F30, and whatever Audi and MB made are better luxury vehicles. Quieter, more refined. Maybe slower in base trim, but that can be fixed by buying a bigger engined model.
E90 and Audis, yes. F30, no. Bells, whistles and IDrive aside it did not feel more upscale than a current year Accord LX, and this was no stripper model.
I will say this- the G's materials are unacceptably cheap. Leather in the back seat on mine is worn, and the faux aluminum trim is flaking. But aside from that it's solid. F30 dash feels like Rubbermaid by comparison.
Faux aluminum? My G had real metal with a swirly wire brush texture?
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/2018-toyota-camry-inline3-photo-674537-s-original.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwGMuKfHNNo
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 21, 2017, 02:42:57 PM
I will say this- the G's materials are unacceptably cheap. Leather in the back seat on mine is worn, and the faux aluminum trim is flaking. But aside from that it's solid. F30 dash feels like Rubbermaid by comparison.
Are you sure it's not the clearcoat applied on top of the aluminum that's flaking?
Quote from: MX793 on June 21, 2017, 01:32:05 PM
They had a sporty-looking set of body add-ons and bigger standard wheels...
Also some steering and suspension tweaks. But nothing that was going to take on a luxury sports sedan except in the 0-60, which is of course what separates a great car from a poseur.
Quote from: ifcar on June 21, 2017, 03:45:47 PM
Also some steering and suspension tweaks. But nothing that was going to take on a luxury sports sedan except in the 0-60, which is of course what separates a great car from a poseur.
It was nothing that was going to take on a V6 Accord Sport, forget anything in the "poseur" class.
Quote from: Laconian on June 21, 2017, 02:49:10 PM
Faux aluminum? My G had real metal with a swirly wire brush texture?
It's real/unpainted AL in my car too, knowingly obvious as it dents and scratches very easily.
My leather has held up great. The driver's seat is a bit scrunched and shiny but looks better than average for 120k miles (and I've never treated it).
Quote from: 2o6 on June 21, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
It's good you like your car, but the G cars are *okay*
The E90, F30, and whatever Audi and MB made are better luxury vehicles. Quieter, more refined. Maybe slower in base trim, but that can be fixed by buying a bigger engined model.
"Better" in that they had awful infotainment and would eat Camcord V6 dust (yes, it matters, A LOT) all for $40k+, and to get materially more one has to bump up to the $50k S4, C43, etc.
The vast majority of poser class buyers would be far better served in a Camcord, but decadence and narcissism are powerful elixirs.
The only leeway that may be given is for the new A4 - at least with DSG/6MT and AWD, there's at least some differentiation that matters.
The Camry is loud and less composed. It's not meant to be on the same level; it's a different car for a different buyer.
Curiously, you continually ignore the IS.....
Quote from: GoCougs on June 21, 2017, 05:01:10 PM
"Better" in that they had awful infotainment and would eat Camcord V6 dust (yes, it matters, A LOT) all for $40k+, and to get materially more one has to bump up to the $50k S4, C43, etc.
???
The 3-series has always had an engine option short of the M's that will beat a Camry in a straight line.
Quote from: 2o6 on June 21, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
The Camry is loud and less composed. It's not meant to be on the same level; it's a different car for a different buyer.
Curiously, you continually ignore the IS.....
I don't care much for the IS, and actually have very little respect for it, but holy hell the Lexus folks must be pissed that the Camry just got its motor.
Quote from: Tave on June 21, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
???
The 3-series has always had an engine option short of the M's that will beat a Camry in a straight line.
Not for at least twice the price
From a roll I see a 328i/330i having a hard time getting away... and a 320i, forget about it :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on June 21, 2017, 05:42:17 PM
I don't care much for the IS, and actually have very little respect for it, but holy hell the Lexus folks must be pissed that the Camry just got its motor.
No one gives a shit.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 21, 2017, 05:42:17 PM
I don't care much for the IS, and actually have very little respect for it, but holy hell the Lexus folks must be pissed that the Camry just got its motor.
I doubt it. Lexus RWD lineup is dying on the vine, largely in part I think because people can get their RWD kicks without having to deal with that asinine infotainment system. Bad infotainment is really destroying whole generations of cars.
The new Camry is not bad-looking, but if you really want a performance-oriented Camry then you can't beat the ultra rare 1980-1982 A50 Celica Camry.
The only REAR-WHEEL-DRIVE "Camry" ever made. And technically it wasn't a Camry, it was a sportier Toyota Carina sedan.
(https://i.wheelsage.org/image/format/picture/picture-gallery-full/t/toyota/celica_camry/toyota_celica_camry_1.jpeg)
(https://i.wheelsage.org/image/format/picture/picture-gallery-full/t/toyota/celica_camry/toyota_celica_camry_7.jpeg)
(https://i.wheelsage.org/pictures/t/toyota/celica_camry/toyota_celica_camry_3.jpeg)
RWD =! Performance oriented
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 21, 2017, 05:46:21 PM
Not for at least twice the price
From a roll I see a 328i/330i having a hard time getting away... and a 320i, forget about it :lol:
I'm not disputing the Camry is a better value dollar-for-dollar over every luxer. I'm responding to the factual assertion that any 3 short of the M "would eat Camcord V6 dust." It's not true now and never has been.
There is something there WRT Mercedes, which wasn't serious about the C-Class until relatively recently, and Audi, which does tend to limit engine upgrades outside of their performance lines, but the assertion falls flat with the 3-series.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 21, 2017, 12:20:11 PM
Are there really people that will buy a performance Camry? I mean I picture the typical Camry owner of being someone who does not care about cars and wants good value and reliability and nothing more.
They'll buy it without regard to its performance because it's a Camry. All they need to do is be competitive within the class and remain competent within the class and people will continue to buy it. The performance is a luxury.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on June 21, 2017, 01:29:11 PM
Yeah, but weren't those 250/270-hp models with zero sporting pretensions?
Body kit.
I drove an I4 SE manual transmission model once. It was....floaty. But it looked sporty.
Quote from: Tave on June 22, 2017, 09:42:58 AM
I'm not disputing the Camry is a better value dollar-for-dollar over every luxer. I'm responding to the factual assertion that any 3 short of the M "would eat Camcord V6 dust." It's not true now and never has been.
There is something there WRT Mercedes, which wasn't serious about the C-Class until relatively recently, and Audi, which does tend to limit engine upgrades outside of their performance lines, but the assertion falls flat with the 3-series.
Fair enough
The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales. I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride. They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point.
Quote from: Tave on June 21, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
???
The 3-series has always had an engine option short of the M's that will beat a Camry in a straight line.
Never said otherwise.
(Be very careful of trying too hard.)
Quote from: veeman on June 22, 2017, 12:19:57 PM
The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales. I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride. They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point.
I disagree
Toyota knows what its customers want and the SE has got sportier with each iteration. The 07-11s got the 3.5; 12-14 got paddle shifters and chassis bracing; current one retained all the stuff the 12-14 got. I see this new XSE V6 as a legitimate alternative to something like a Maxima or TLX, which are def more focused on driver engagement than the ES.
Quote from: veeman on June 22, 2017, 12:19:57 PM
The V6 makes up about 10% of Camry sales. I think people shopping for it are not looking for a sporty ride. They want a Lexus ES ride at a cheaper price point.
History says you're right, in the form of whatever the top end lux Camy is (XLE V6). The video days SE/XSE V6 take rate is ~3% so at least some want the "performance" Camry.
That's ~600/month. So it does sell, about half as well as the poor selling models in the poser class
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 23, 2017, 05:57:05 AM
I disagree
Toyota knows what its customers want and the SE has got sportier with each iteration. The 07-11s got the 3.5; 12-14 got paddle shifters and chassis bracing; current one retained all the stuff the 12-14 got. I see this new XSE V6 as a legitimate alternative to something like a Maxima or TLX, which are def more focused on driver engagement than the ES.
The first Camry SE had its own unique engine -- it had the 3.3-liter while the LE and XLE had the 3.0. For 2007, it switched to having the same engine as the rest of the lineup. It was a better engine, to be sure, but it reduced the SE distinction.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 23, 2017, 05:44:00 PM
That's ~600/month. So it does sell, about half as well as the poor selling models in the poser class
10%? By my calcs that's 3,000-3,500/mo (10% of ~360-420K/yr)... better than only the top sellers (3 series, C-class, ES, 5er). I'd argue the XLE/XSE are nicer than the 328i as well
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 23, 2017, 06:51:08 PM
10%? By my calcs that's 3,000-3,500/mo (10% of ~360-420K/yr)... better than only the top sellers (3 series, C-class, ES, 5er). I'd argue the XLE/XSE are nicer than the 328i as well
He said 3%
(I don't have a clue what the % is, just going off that & average monthly sales of 20k)
I would take a V6 Camry over a 320i. The 320i is everything that is wrong with BMW - It's ugly, slow and has no good features. It drives like a buick, it looks cheap as hell and it would get werked by a Camry in almost every objective measure.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 23, 2017, 08:49:19 PM
He said 3%
(I don't have a clue what the % is, just going off that & average monthly sales of 20k)
OK.... quick check of Autotrader inventory of 2012+ cars = ~6%. At the Camry's volumes, enough to keep around. That extra power should make a nice difference too. Last Camry V6 was quick, but the power didn't impress me like the 300HP Maxima did. With the conventional 8AT this should have shorter gearing off the line, which will make it feel even peppier.
#coilovernation
(http://i.imgur.com/Zi3S5gi.png)
$35K plus taxes etc. Not bad. Plus a 14-pound sledge hammer to smack the rear bumper for the obligatory dent... and you'd be running with the big dogs.
I'd get the silver with the red interior.
Thinking more about it, I think Toyota may have priced these things in dangerous territory. The $25K 4 banger SE puts it right in the middle of GTI/Civic Si territory, and the $35K V6 is Golf R or even BMW 330i fodder. Back when the V6 was like $25K it was a more compelling package.
The only relevant comparison there is the 330i, and that's only barely relevant IMO. A Camry buyer isn't going to even know what a GTI or Civic Si is most likely, and they're buying a Camry for value/comfort/reliability which pretty much rules out a BMW. (trying to think like a Camry buyer here)
Yes there are exceptions but that's all they are.
IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 31, 2017, 05:48:34 AM
IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.
I guess if you consider just the ultra low volume V6 XSE your argument makes more sense to me as a much larger % of buyers for that particular model will be "enthusiasts" even if only slightly, but I still don't think the comparison to the Golf R is a very good one. They are only comparable on price and that's really it. Someone buying a Golf R is unlikely to look at the Camry IMO, and someone looking at the Camry has priorities that are probably not going to be met by the Golf R.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 31, 2017, 05:48:34 AM
IDK man. I could see someone like Cougs cross shopping the Camry XSE V6 and Golf R. And the market for sedans is shrinking, which could make such weird cross shopping more relevant. The fact that Toyota has sought to make the Camry sportier makes such comparisons more relevant.
Cougs only considers straight line performance relevant in a performance car. The typical GTI/R buyer does not.