An interesting read: https://shift.newco.co/amp/p/38b843bd4fe0
TL;DR
EVs are far more reliable than ICE cars.
When autonomous cars arrive, transportation costs will be drastically cheaper.
Car ownership will die.
It will happen fast.
Big oil will be in trouble.
It will not happen fast. Car ownership will not die.
Who's going to buy 10k+ autonomous cars to get every individual in my area to work each morning? lol nobody.
It all depends on autonomous driving. If that pans out, it will happen fast.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 04, 2017, 02:38:13 PM
An interesting read: https://shift.newco.co/amp/p/38b843bd4fe0
TL;DR
EVs are far more reliable than ICE cars.
When autonomous cars arrive, transportation costs will be drastically cheaper.
Car ownership will die.
It will happen fast.
Big oil will be in trouble.
Interesting. But where will the power to charge all those batteries come from? I know! Unicorns and Rainbows! :lol:
And they'll also fly
Quote from: mzziaz on August 04, 2017, 02:38:13 PM
An interesting read: https://shift.newco.co/amp/p/38b843bd4fe0
TL;DR
EVs are far more reliable than ICE cars.
When autonomous cars arrive, transportation costs will be drastically cheaper.
Car ownership will die.
It will happen fast.
Big oil will be in trouble.
If those are the cliff notes I dont even have to read the article.
1. Planes are more reliable than cars, but we all drive to work :lol:
2/3/4. It won't happen fast. Off the top of my head there are a shitload of issues slowing down this conversion.
- Lithium scarcity
- The monumental gulf to the viability of Level 5 autonomy from where we are now
- Lack of faith in autonomous tech (currently for good reason)
- Limitations in manufacturing capacity- in the US we have 300M private cars; even if everyone abandoned them overnight for ride sharing the industry can only crank out ~25M cars a year, and that's a generous estimate
- Range and charging
Etc.
Don't become to EVs what shippy has become to Trump or r0tor has become to Tesla, we are already at capacity for zealotry here
It will take a while for everything to start that direction, but once they take off it will be WHAM FAST!!!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 04, 2017, 03:33:39 PM
If those are the cliff notes I dont even have to read the article.
1. Planes are more reliable than cars, but we all drive to work :lol:
2/3/4. It won't happen fast. Off the top of my head there are a shitload of issues slowing down this conversion.
- Lithium scarcity
- The monumental gulf to the viability of Level 5 autonomy from where we are now
- Lack of faith in autonomous tech (currently for good reason)
- Limitations in manufacturing capacity- in the US we have 300M private cars; even if everyone abandoned them overnight for ride sharing the industry can only crank out ~25M cars a year, and that's a generous estimate
- Range and charging
Etc.
Don't become to EVs what shippy has become to Trump or r0tor has become to Tesla, we are already at capacity for zealotry here
It is only uncertainty about level 5 autonomy which is a valid counterpoint, imo.
However, EVs will probably still come fast, because they most likely will offer cheaper transportation than ICE counterparts.
EVs and autonomous cars are not the same thing. To say that the end of the ICE is near because EVs are on the rise is fine...but to then say that "car ownership will die"....nah, man. Relax.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 05, 2017, 01:56:13 AM
EVs and autonomous cars are not the same thing. To say that the end of the ICE is near because EVs are on the rise is fine...but to then say that "car ownership will die"....nah, man. Relax.
This.
I have no doubt that shared ownership models for cars will rise, but for many people there are to many downsides. For example one always has to remove the child seats, and the kids drawing set from the vehicle after every ride.
I have to say, this is a fairly ignorant piece if but for nothing else than if the West manages to self-loath itself out of using fossil fuels, the other half of the planet will be throttle down on fossil fuels for the next few centuries - Africa, SE Asia and China will not see their cultures rise with EVs and solar panels and the like. Big Oil and fossil fuels will never die - there are 3B+ people who need to come into the 21st century.
As to the other bits, EV tech has been around for more than 100 years, and yet here we are, w/EVs still but a curiosity, plus, as I've mentioned before, the analogy to hybrids is apt - 15 years since the first Prius and hybrids are still but a curiosity as well. Autonomous driving won't ever happen w/out catastrophic levels of government spending and regulation.
As to EVs themselves, batteries are of course the deal breaker - too heavy, too expensive, too inefficient, they still pollute o' plenty, and there is no path to getting them to be materially better. There needs to be a Mr. Fusion-like breakthrough before EVs (on their own merit) can hope to be more than a curiosity. EVs will likely be less expensive to own however, which would be a bonus.
Quote from: Galaxy on August 05, 2017, 05:25:59 AM
This.
I have no doubt that shared ownership models for cars will rise, but for many people there are to many downsides. For example one always has to remove the child seats, and the kids drawing set from the vehicle after every ride.
The whole child seat thing is long overdue for an update. I'm sure with all the families they can make some cars with fixed child seats.
But after actually starting to read the article.... whew. "I got time today cuz". We are going to emulsify this thing word by word. Just off the rip, ICE are complicated.... to people who don't understand cars. The electronics of an EV would be no less bewildering to some clueless tech blogger. But I'll be bak
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 05, 2017, 06:46:44 AM
The whole child seat thing is long overdue for an update. I'm sure with all the families they can make some cars with fixed child seats.
You (or your wife) gonna strap your kid into a carseat that countless strangers have barfed and had explosive diarrhea all over? Carseats can get gross. Plus people take them out of the base and use them as a carrier, clip them into a stroller etc. A universal base would make sense but they don't seem to be going that way.
Beyond carseats just think of the amount of personal "stuff" many people have in their cars, esp on longer trips/vacations etc. I don't want to load my shit in and out of a glorified taxi each time we head out.
Gross. I never considered that angle. It'd be like strapping your kid down to a McDonald's ball pit.
Fair point about the car seat- permanent one is no go. But agreeing on a single base to snap the seat into, rather than those tether hooks, seems like a smarter idea. And again everyone doesn't have the luxury of buying their own car; plenty of parents rely on public transportation. For people of limited economic means with a shorter "future time orientation", the idea of paying per ride vs paying a car note makes a lot more sense. And the economics may still work for people who can afford their own cars.
Anyways after a long ass bike ride, I don't want to break this article down. Don't have the energy. However, an ICE is simpler than something a cell phone for example, if we are going to count every single nut and bolt (or transistor and capacitor). But we don't question the cell phone's viability or future. There is just too much breathless convenient speculation in this article to attack.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 05, 2017, 06:35:49 AM
I have to say, this is a fairly ignorant piece if but for nothing else than if the West manages to self-loath itself out of using fossil fuels
Of course... nobody can be legitimately concerned about man made climate change; they just hate themselves. This is the kind of reductive ad-hominem you bitched about the left lobbing at Trump supporters.... how quaint of you to turn around and do the same :rolleyes:
I doubt I'll buy another ICE car, with the exception of something fun for leisurely use.
With the incentives EV cars have here, it makes financial sense, and I rather enjoy the driving characteristics.
Again, the premise doesn't hold. Most if not the vast majority of the market has no interest in EVs, autonomous cars, or driving/sharing services. Why should the whole of the culture be upended to accommodate such a relative few?
I get that WtP are desperate for the next Big Thing but this isn't it.
Yea, I think Norway's appetite, geography and infrastructure make EVs feel a lot more viable than they are in the rest of the world.
The fact that much of that appetite is fueled by govt incentives kind of says it all.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 05, 2017, 12:06:44 PM
I doubt I'll buy another ICE car, with the exception of something fun for leisurely use.
With the incentives EV cars have here, it makes financial sense, and I rather enjoy the driving characteristics.
If they are so efficient why are they subsidized?
Quote from: Lebowski on August 05, 2017, 02:48:26 PM
If they are so efficient why are they subsidized?
Because they are more expensive to produce (for now).
:huh:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 05, 2017, 01:20:59 PM
Yea, I think Norway's appetite, geography and infrastructure make EVs feel a lot more viable than they are in the rest of the world.
The fact that much of that appetite is fueled by govt incentives kind of says it all.
Norwegian geography is not very EV friendly. It is the heavy incentives that fuel EV demand, combined with comparatively high gas taxes and low electricity costs.
But seriously, where is the energy coming from to power the extra load on the power companies of a total electric car system? Natural gas? Renewables? Nukes? Oil?
I don't think renewables can do it. What's the point?
Don't know much about Scandinavian energy sources, I will admit.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 05, 2017, 01:20:59 PM
Yea, I think Norway's appetite, geography and infrastructure make EVs feel a lot more viable than they are in the rest of the world.
The fact that much of that appetite is fueled by govt incentives kind of says it all.
India...
India is betting big on electric vehicles, but where does that leave the makers of hybrids? (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/industry/india-is-betting-big-on-electric-vehicles-but-where-does-that-leave-the-makers-of-hybrids/articleshow/59195648.cms)
Interesting article.
Hydroelectric energy, mostly.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 05, 2017, 03:25:37 PM
Hydroelectric energy, mostly.
It may be feasible then.
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 05, 2017, 03:25:15 PM
India...India is betting big on electric vehicles, but where does that leave the makers of hybrids? (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/industry/india-is-betting-big-on-electric-vehicles-but-where-does-that-leave-the-makers-of-hybrids/articleshow/59195648.cms)
Interesting article.
Yes, that is pretty ambitious by Indian government. I'm glad they make plug in hybrids less attractive. Except the Volt/Ampera, I have serious doubts about their eco friendliness m
Quote from: shp4man on August 05, 2017, 03:24:42 PM
But seriously, where is the energy coming from to power the extra load on the power companies of a total electric car system?
We already discussed this. Most people would charge their cars at night, which would actually be better for electrical grids. I posted this diagram in another discussion.
(http://i.imgur.com/AKNY6FG.png)
Utilities could easily incentivize and even lock out charging during peak times, and make better use of generators, which hate variations in load. Solar would help a ton in covering additional summer load. Only real loser in the electricity chain would be transmission, but the added use could fund much needed updates and maintenance.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 05, 2017, 03:24:40 PM
Norwegian geography is not very EV friendly. It is the heavy incentives that fuel EV demand, combined with comparatively high gas taxes and low electricity costs.
The geography is more friendly. Average commute in Norway is about 9 miles; average commute in the US is about 15. And I personally know a lot of people who do a lot more. My wife's commute is 18 miles each way; mine is about 35; and I know people who travel 50+ miles each way. Norway is a smaller + more dense country.
And again, the fact that EV's demand is being driven by incentives, both directly and by artificially high gas costs, shows the demand is not real. If the govt paid me enough, I would drive an EV too :lol: That lack of
real demand is probably the EV's biggest hurdle. PEople in the US want nothing to do with EVs that aren't Teslas or BMW i whatevers. And range anxiety is still legit + real. I'm not going to buy 2 cars just to have an EV.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 05, 2017, 05:15:37 PM
We already discussed this. Most people would charge their cars at night, which would actually be better for electrical grids. I posted this diagram in another discussion.
(http://i.imgur.com/AKNY6FG.png)
Utilities could easily incentivize and even lock out charging during peak times, and make better use of generators, which hate variations in load. Solar would help a ton in covering additional summer load. Only real loser in the electricity chain would be transmission, but the added use could fund much needed updates and maintenance.
Nice chart. Specially the notations. :lol:
Quote from: shp4man on August 05, 2017, 05:27:16 PM
Nice chart. Specially the notations. :lol:
Plagerized but it's flattering ;).
Plagiarized from where?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 05, 2017, 05:21:23 PM
The geography is more friendly. Average commute in Norway is about 9 miles; average commute in the US is about 15. And I personally know a lot of people who do a lot more. My wife's commute is 18 miles each way; mine is about 35; and I know people who travel 50+ miles each way. Norway is a smaller + more dense country.
And again, the fact that EV's demand is being driven by incentives, both directly and by artificially high gas costs, shows the demand is not real. If the govt paid me enough, I would drive an EV too :lol: That lack of real demand is probably the EV's biggest hurdle. PEople in the US want nothing to do with EVs that aren't Teslas or BMW i whatevers. And range anxiety is still legit + real. I'm not going to buy 2 cars just to have an EV.
I'm not even sure what your arguments are.
* Geography=commuting distances?
* Longer commutes somehow makes EVs less useful?
* Incentives create demand?
* People will buy only status EVs?
* 200+ miles EV range still creates anxiety?
All of those are wrong except #3, which is the whole point of incentives.
Yeah, Norway is more like Wyoming with a Denver thrown in then Southern California.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 04, 2017, 02:38:13 PM
An interesting read: https://shift.newco.co/amp/p/38b843bd4fe0
TL;DR
EVs are far more reliable than ICE cars.
When autonomous cars arrive, transportation costs will be drastically cheaper.
Car ownership will die.
It will happen fast.
Big oil will be in trouble.
There's your answer. Big oil will be protected, so what you're talking about likely won't happen.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 05, 2017, 03:20:57 PM
Because they are more expensive to produce (for now).
:huh:
If they are only viable with significant subsidies as well as punitive taxation on gasoline, what does that tell you?
Quote from: Lebowski on August 06, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
If they are only viable with significant subsidies as well as punitive taxation on gasoline, what does that tell you?
I suppose it tells some people that pollution is a good trade off when something is cheaper to make.
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 06, 2017, 08:21:50 AM
I suppose it tells some people that pollution is a good trade off when something is cheaper to make.
Americans always choose to pollute the shit out of everything when it's cost effective to do so. :neverforget:
Quote from: Lebowski on August 06, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
If they are only viable with significant subsidies as well as punitive taxation on gasoline, what does that tell you?
That they aren't competitive yet without incentives in the marketplace.
However, I recently saw an analysis predicting cost parity between ICE and EV cars within a couple of years.
:huh:
Cost parity is not an issue. We can get used Nissan Leafs for dirt cheap here, yet people still get shit like the Mitsubishi Mirage for more.
Quote from: Lebowski on August 06, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
If they are only viable with significant subsidies as well as punitive taxation on gasoline, what does that tell you?
Many things require a leg up to get off the ground, and then become viable. The entire basis of the internet was bankrolled by governments.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 06, 2017, 08:40:54 AM
That they aren't competitive yet without incentives in the marketplace.
However, I recently saw an analysis predicting cost parity between ICE and EV cars within a couple of years.
:huh:
Hybrids have been (mostly) there for a while, and lo and behold, 15 years on, they're still pretty much only a curiosity in the marketplace.
200+ mile range helps but even if there was cost parity, there are still usage issues, such as "fill up" time, temp extremes and long distances.
To make any sort of rational (i.e., absent fascist intervention) and meaningful headway in the market (at least in the US) EVs will have to be equivalent to ICEs - cost, functionality, practicality - and at present there is no path to get there.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2017, 09:43:17 AM
Hybrids have been (mostly) there for a while, and lo and behold, 15 years on, they're still pretty much only a curiosity in the marketplace.
200+ mile range helps but even if there was cost parity, there are still usage issues, such as "fill up" time, temp extremes and long distances.
To make any sort of rational (i.e., absent fascist intervention) and meaningful headway in the market (at least in the US) EVs will have to be equivalent to ICEs - cost, functionality, practicality - and at present there is no path to get there.
There is always the possibility of making IC engines perfectly 'clean'...
Undesirable emissions include unburned hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx), and particulate matter (PM). Certainly, much progress has been made over the last few decades. There may even be a feasible solution; a better catalytic converter? How hard can that be?
Interesting article...
The evolution of catalytic converters (https://eic.rsc.org/feature/the-evolution-of-catalytic-converters/2020252.article)
Quote from: mzziaz on August 06, 2017, 08:40:54 AM
That they aren't competitive
Wasn't the article you posted all about superior efficiency and simplicity? I'm confused. Free markets are pretty good at sorting this stuff out.
Quote from: FoMoJo on August 06, 2017, 10:14:40 AM
There is always the possibility of making IC engines perfectly 'clean'... Undesirable emissions include unburned hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen oxides (NOx), and particulate matter (PM).
Certainly, much progress has been made over the last few decades. There may even be a feasible solution; a better catalytic converter? How hard can that be?
Interesting article...The evolution of catalytic converters (https://eic.rsc.org/feature/the-evolution-of-catalytic-converters/2020252.article)
I'm not sure about "perfectly" clean but they can be cleaner, though I'm not sure how to get there. But really, just simply improved MPG is less total emissions.
Quote from: Lebowski on August 06, 2017, 10:29:32 AM
Wasn't the article you posted all about superior efficiency and simplicity? I'm confused. Free markets are pretty good at sorting this stuff out.
What is your point? That EVs can never be competitive without incentives because they aren't today?
Quote from: mzziaz on August 06, 2017, 11:05:05 AM
What is your point? That EVs can never be competitive without incentives because they aren't today?
My point is current market dynamics don't seem to support the thesis of the article.
If a given technology is economically viable, it doesn't need subsidies.
I think the political push for getting rid of IC engines is huge and will only grow.
(On a prosaic note my neighbor ditched his gas lawnmower & replaced it with a battery-powered one - it has two plugin Li-ion packs. He loves it: quiet - no smelly gasoline & oil to worry about. As to longevity - I don't know)
"Smelly gasoline." Geeeez we're getting soft. Oil? Lawnmowers take like, what, a quart and a half? You can get away with never even changing it if you want to.
I'd enjoy a quieter mower. It's a great opportunity to listen to music or podcasts, but I don't like to do that too often since you have turn the volume up a lot in order to drown out the engine.
Dealing with oil/gas on lawn equipment is a pain. My edger is the worst. Have to get + mix the 2 stroke oil, I have to wear earplugs to use it, and the vibration makes my hands numb. I think I'm gonna jump on an all electric kit once shit goes on sale this fall. It would be worth it for the edger alone.
Quote from: Morris Minor on August 06, 2017, 08:26:27 PM
I think the political push for getting rid of IC engines is huge and will only grow.
(On a prosaic note my neighbor ditched his gas lawnmower & replaced it with a battery-powered one - it has two plugin Li-ion packs. He loves it: quiet - no smelly gasoline & oil to worry about. As to longevity - I don't know)
I have had my electric lawnmower (B&D) for ~5 years now. The mower still works but a couple months ago I tried to take off the blade to sharpen it and it is stuck. The electric motor and batteries still work fine though. I am still using it, but the blade is dull so it is making mowing more difficult.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 07, 2017, 04:33:29 AM
Dealing with oil/gas on lawn equipment is a pain. My edger is the worst. Have to get + mix the 2 stroke oil, I have to wear earplugs to use it, and the vibration makes my hands numb. I think I'm gonna jump on an all electric kit once shit goes on sale this fall. It would be worth it for the edger alone.
i had a 4-cycle edger. It was not too bad. Needs ethanol-free gas though (or an additive).
Another prediction of EV world takeover.
https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 07, 2017, 07:48:01 AM
I have had my electric lawnmower (B&D) for ~5 years now. The mower still works but a couple months ago I tried to take off the blade to sharpen it and it is stuck. The electric motor and batteries still work fine though. I am still using it, but the blade is dull so it is making mowing more difficult.
(http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image/ae235/?$p$&wid=281&hei=281&op_sharpen=1&layer=0&size=281,281&layer=1&size=281,281&src=ae235/60320_P)
Quote from: mzziaz on August 11, 2017, 08:40:41 AM
Another prediction of EV world takeover.
https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death
But without logic, reason, and economics; in short, it's simply a wish by the author(s).
The "takeover" will only happen via fascist law.
Quote from: mzziaz on August 11, 2017, 08:40:41 AM
Another prediction of EV world takeover.
https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death
Bunch of doom & gloom with no facts, just like everything else in the media today. :lol:
At this point I would just settle for not getting stuck in traffic behind trucks with fuck tons of black smoke billowing out their exhaust stacks every time they go up a hill or start from a standstill.
But no, I will continue to have days shaved off my life because "oh boo hoo think about the poor trucking industry"
Do you honestly believe that being behind a semi-truck in traffic takes days off your life?
Put your air on recirculate. :lol:
Quote from: r0tor on August 11, 2017, 09:24:51 AM
At this point I would just settle for not getting stuck in traffic behind trucks with fuck tons of black smoke billowing out their exhaust stacks every time they go up a hill or start from a standstill.
Then you should move............................
And trucks don't come out of the factory billowing black smoke. That's not a regulatory problem, that's a law enforcement problem.
Pretty rare I see trucks billowing black smoke these days. Usually only if it's an old clunker. There are a shitload of trucks traveling on public roads around here (logging, mining), and I've yet to be offended by them besides by their occasional (lack of) speed.
Coal rollers are much worse.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on August 11, 2017, 11:48:30 AM
Coal rollers are much worse.
Agreed. The definition of douchebag.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2017, 10:57:30 AM
Then you should move............................
And trucks don't come out of the factory billowing black smoke. That's not a regulatory problem, that's a law enforcement problem.
The regulatory problem is we grandfather old clunkers in every bit of environmental legislation
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 11, 2017, 11:02:46 AM
Pretty rare I see trucks billowing black smoke these days. Usually only if it's an old clunker. There are a shitload of trucks traveling on public roads around here (logging, mining), and I've yet to be offended by them besides by their occasional (lack of) speed.
My area is quickly becoming the east coast warehouse capital... I see shit spewers every few miles.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 11, 2017, 09:29:59 AM
Do you honestly believe that being behind a semi-truck in traffic takes days off your life?
Put your air on recirculate. :lol:
Air Pollution is probably one of largest health factors outside of directly smoking
I agree - I see dirty big rigs all the time, and it's nasty.
Quote from: r0tor on August 11, 2017, 02:50:23 PM
The regulatory problem is we grandfather old clunkers in every bit of environmental legislation
Then lets address that. The gulf between a dirty ancient smoke billowing rig to a clean diesel truck is way ibigger than the gap between a clean diesel and an electric rig. While not having anywhere near as huge of a logistical or financial hurdle
Quote from: r0tor on August 11, 2017, 02:51:36 PM
My area is quickly becoming the east coast warehouse capital... I see shit spewers every few miles.
If it's up and coming, why are they not using newer trucks? I think you're exaggerating the "billowing black smoke" bit for effect here... :huh:
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 12, 2017, 05:04:57 AM
If it's up and coming, why are they not using newer trucks? I think you're exaggerating the "billowing black smoke" bit for effect here... :huh:
New warehouses don't mean new trucks
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2017, 05:52:03 PM
Then lets address that. The gulf between a dirty ancient smoke billowing rig to a clean diesel truck is way ibigger than the gap between a clean diesel and an electric rig. While not having anywhere near as huge of a logistical or financial hurdle
We can't because of the boo frikkin hoo trucking industry "can't afford " to buy new trucks.
Like I really give a damn about that industry. If it moves them out of the shipping market - then lets find a new answer... But we won't because the US will take money over the environment every time
Quote from: r0tor on August 12, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
We can't because of the boo frikkin hoo trucking industry "can't afford " to buy new trucks.
Like I really give a damn about that industry. If it moves them out of the shipping market - then lets find a new answer... But we won't because the US will take money over the environment every time
If you require all the many millions of commercial trucks to be replaced that is money that corporations won't/can't spend on new machines, new products, new buildings, new planes, etc. (i.e., other things that will emit less emissions).
WtP don't take "money over the environment." Cultures will take a natural balanced approach. For example, sidestepping the fascist nature of it, if you required all corporations to have the newest most efficient environmental tech (trucks, cars, machines, ships, processes, buildings, etc.) our culture comes to a screeching halt, which includes advancements in safety, medicine, food, etc. Circa 1925 it was totally a benefit to have very polluting industry because it saved millions of lives in total (= advancements in medicine, auto and plane safety, sanitation, food production, etc.).
Quote from: r0tor on August 12, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
We can't because of the boo frikkin hoo trucking industry "can't afford " to buy new trucks.
Like I really give a damn about that industry. If it moves them out of the shipping market - then lets find a new answer... But we won't because the US will take money over the environment every time
Everything you buy in a store was brought there by a truck. Everything. They
are the answer for the shipping market. :nutty:
Did a truck touch you in a bad place in your childhood or something? Jesus.