http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/09/production-2019-porsche-mission-e-will-priced-around-85000-80-percent-charge-takes-15-minutes-nets-250-mile-range
(https://i1.wp.com/www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/2015-Porsche-Mission-E-Matthias-Mueller.jpg)
Apparently this thing is gonna cost $85K to start, have a ~310 mile range, and 350kW charging capacity (enabling getting 250 miles worth of charge in ~15 minutes)
$85K for this! From Porsche! Tesla who?
It looks amazing but I'm wondering what the production version will look like. Also, it's coming out like 2 years from now... Tesla should have a new S by then with probably very comparable specs... I think Tesla is safe for now.
As this is still 2 years away, i expect that 85K price to creep up a bit, but damn is it sexy. I wonder if there will be a none electric version sold?
I think its impossible proportions are only possible with electric hardware. There's very little overhang and it's very cab forward... where would a decent sized gas engine go?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 13, 2017, 10:33:22 AM
I think its impossible proportions are only possible with electric hardware. There's very little overhang and it's very cab forward... where would a decent sized gas engine go?
In the ass.
Yeah, Tesla is going to get murdered if they're even able to survive for another 2 more years.
Looks like Porsche is figuring out how to build electric cars profitably with this one. If this really comes out at $85k and they're making money with it, it's over. Tesla's big advantage has just been having the balls to take financial risks that other companies wouldn't do. With this car, Tesla is going to have to compete in all areas, like fit and finish, quality, driving dynamics, etc. Porsche is going to be better at all of those things.
Manufacturing as well. Porsche can probably start building these tomorrow no problem. They are just letting the beat build.
Damn that's sexy.
Tesla has a massive trump card... its charging network.
Fuck me if this Porsche isn't gorgeous though. :wub:
I hope it comes with a Ludicrous mode. They should call it Blitzkreig mode. :tounge:
Loved that concept when it came out... Reminds me of my RX8 with rear suicide doors and rear bucket seats :muffin:
BMW too:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-i-vision-dynamics-concept-photos-and-info-news
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/media/51/bmw-ivision-dynamics-concept-inline2-photo-690924-s-original.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=800:*)
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/17q3/685272/bmw-i-vision-dynamics-concept-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-690866-s-original.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=900:*)
And the 400Volt Infrastructure exists where?
No need, they can just incorporate a step up transformer. That current draw on the low side will be :mask: though
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 13, 2017, 04:22:31 PM
No need, they can just incorporate a step up transformer.
A 350kw step up transformer? That is going to be larger then the car.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on September 13, 2017, 01:18:12 PM
BMW too:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-i-vision-dynamics-concept-photos-and-info-news
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/media/51/bmw-ivision-dynamics-concept-inline2-photo-690924-s-original.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=800:*)
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod-cad-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/images/17q3/685272/bmw-i-vision-dynamics-concept-photos-and-info-news-car-and-driver-photo-690866-s-original.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,center&resize=900:*)
Get rid of that goofy B pillar treatment and make the front kidneys smaller, and yeah, that's pretty nice too.
Someone should start selling adapters to plug non-Teslas into Tesla charging stations.... :mask:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 13, 2017, 10:57:07 AM
Manufacturing as well. Porsche can probably start building these tomorrow no problem. They are just letting the beat build.
Yeah, they know how to actually launch a car. So when they say it'll start production in 2 years, it will :lol:
Tesla will say it will launch in two years, then delay for another 2.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 14, 2017, 06:19:53 AM
Someone should start selling adapters to plug non-Teslas into Tesla charging stations.... :mask:
Tesla holds the cards with its charging infrastructure. They have a strong case to make their connectors the industry standard, and then install point-of-sale credit card readers to charge a few bucks for non-Tesla users. Pretty sure they planned for this goldmine, and the gov't helped them do it.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 14, 2017, 07:49:36 AM
Tesla holds the cards with its charging infrastructure. They have a strong case to make their connectors the industry standard, and then install point-of-sale credit card readers to charge a few bucks for non-Tesla users. Pretty sure they planned for this goldmine, and the gov't helped them do it.
I am actually surprised this has not happened. It also would not surprise me if a large car manufacturer bought Tesla for their charging network. Or maybe an energy company.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 14, 2017, 07:56:43 AM
I am actually surprised this has not happened. It also would not surprise me if a large car manufacturer bought Tesla for their charging network. Or maybe an energy company.
The real value in Tesla is indeed their charging network. I don't think they're concerned about Porsche or anyone else for that matter. In fact, they're probably wringing their hands and grinning.
Standardization will come. The government is certainly not going to subsidize another network. For reasons why Musk has been all chummy with this administration... there you go.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 14, 2017, 07:56:43 AM
I am actually surprised this has not happened. It also would not surprise me if a large car manufacturer bought Tesla for their charging network. Or maybe an energy company.
That would be brilliant and solve a lot of problems. Shit deal for anyone who has a used non-Tesla EV though. Standardization of batteries and charging protocol would also be awesome (sorry Cougs)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 14, 2017, 08:47:58 AM
Standardization of batteries and charging protocol would also be awesome (sorry Cougs)
They sort of do that in Europe. For vehicles the IEC 62196 Typ 2 has been defined as the standard. Tesla uses a modified version of that, meaning a Tesla can be charged at any Typ 2 charging station, but other other Type2 vehicles can not use the Superchargers. Also US Teslas are not compatible in Europe.
This Porsche prototype is beautiful no doubt but can it do autopilot like a Tesla can in 2 years time? I think that will continue to be a distinguishing feature between Tesla and everyone else for a while.
I'd hope somebody buying a Porsche isn't buying it for autopilot. :huh:
Nobody outside of Silicon Valley tech bros and city dwellers gives a shit about automation. (yet)
Quote from: Galaxy on September 14, 2017, 07:56:43 AM
I am actually surprised this has not happened. It also would not surprise me if a large car manufacturer bought Tesla for their charging network. Or maybe an energy company.
The slight problem is that today Tesla is already valued higher than most "large car manufacturers".
Quote from: Rockraven on September 14, 2017, 07:49:36 AM
Tesla holds the cards with its charging infrastructure. They have a strong case to make their connectors the industry standard, and then install point-of-sale credit card readers to charge a few bucks for non-Tesla users. Pretty sure they planned for this goldmine, and the gov't helped them do it.
Worldwide there are far more chargers with CHAdeMO and SAE connectors than Tesla's proprietary one.
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 12:03:03 PM
Worldwide there are far more chargers with CHAdeMO and SAE connectors than Tesla's proprietary one.
Organized like Tesla's network? Can you drive from Lisbon to St. Petersburg with those chargers mapped out for you? Are they all 20 minutes @ 80%?
Standardization on (fast) charging and battery tech will never come on its own, and it will be a bad thing when it does (i.e., through the force of immoral government action), for it will radically slow the pace of innovation.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 14, 2017, 12:10:32 PM
Organized like Tesla's network? Can you drive from Lisbon to St. Petersburg with those chargers mapped out for you? Are they all 20 minutes @ 80%?
Can you drive from Lisbon to St. Petersburg using only Tesla Superchargers? Hint: opposite of 'yes'. And guess what? Teslas in Europe use the European standard connector, like every other electric car, because it's law there.
There will come a time, soon I imagine, that US FMVSS and CMVSS standards will be created that deal with this very issue in North America, and the standard chosen will be the SAE standard.
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 02:05:47 PM
Can you drive from Lisbon to St. Petersburg using only Tesla Superchargers? Hint: opposite of 'yes'. And guess what? Teslas in Europe use the European standard connector, like every other electric car, because it's law there.
There will come a time, soon I imagine, that US FMVSS and CMVSS standards will be created that deal with this very issue in North America, and the standard chosen will be the SAE standard.
You said worldwide, and I was just pointing out that, yeah you are correct, but finding those available chargers is nothing like Tesla's North American network.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Standardization on (fast) charging and battery tech will never come on its own, and it will be a bad thing when it does (i.e., through the force of immoral government action), for it will radically slow the pace of innovation.
Well, like it or not, the gov't already spent billions on Tesla's network, so it only makes sense for the gov't to support it.
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 02:05:47 PM
Can you drive from Lisbon to St. Petersburg using only Tesla Superchargers? Hint: opposite of 'yes'. And guess what? Teslas in Europe use the European standard connector, like every other electric car, because it's law there.
There will come a time, soon I imagine, that US FMVSS and CMVSS standards will be created that deal with this very issue in North America, and the standard chosen will be the SAE standard.
What does Tesla use? Their own proprietary system? Again, if the gov't already spent billions on Tesla's network, you'd think they'd support it.
Quote from: 93JC on May 09, 2017, 02:22:06 PM
(http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/web/516/11484_14979.jpg)
Look at how clunky that SAE CCS plug is, with its weird shape and... are those holes on the wall receptacle for screws? You mean you're gonna see exposed screw heads? Ugh, the whole plug is probably screwed together; yuck.
Now, look at the Tesla connector:
(http://www.irishevowners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/DSC00735.jpg)
Ooh. So svelte, so sexy. Who cares if it's incompatible with everything else when it looks that good? Look at how it's all smooth molded plastic with an aluminum flourish rather than that cheap, bulky plasticky SAE connector. And look at how it's got an indent in the bottom of the head of the plug, so the car can use a current-sensing latch with a solenoid that'll lock it in place while it's charging rather than something simple like that passé push-button latch on the SAE plug. And that's not even getting into the size of the cord; look at how big the SAE cord is! The Tesla one is much smaller, because the Tesla engineers were smart enough to use two smaller stranded conductor wires for each pole rather than one conductor per pole (which everyone else does because doubling up on conductors is a crap practice that I'm pretty sure is flat-out illegal to do with building wiring).
There's nothing magical about Tesla's Superchargers. To make them compatible with everyone else would require replacing the Tesla-specific plugs pictured above with the standard (whatever that may be). And letting owners of other cars use them, of course, but that's up to Tesla.
Quote from: veeman on September 14, 2017, 10:31:40 AM
This Porsche prototype is beautiful no doubt but can it do autopilot like a Tesla can in 2 years time? I think that will continue to be a distinguishing feature between Tesla and everyone else for a while.
Are you serious? Not only the VW group has been experimenting with autonomous driving long before Tesla was even created, but the new Audi A8 is already equipped with a much more advanced system, though not yet activated due to legislation. And don't forget that Teslas autopilot has just been partially blamed for the deadly accident of the guy who hit a lorry because the camera couldn't made the difference between a white color vehicle and the bright sky
It is debatable who is more advanced. The Volvo system is active at more higher speeds, where Audi is being a bit more audacious is driver responsibility, in that the steering wheel pulls back and the driver is actively encouraged to pursue other activities and not monitor the vehicle.
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
There's nothing magical about Tesla's Superchargers. To make them compatible with everyone else would require replacing the Tesla-specific plugs pictured above with the standard (whatever that may be). And letting owners of other cars use them, of course, but that's up to Tesla.
It's much more than just a connector.
The Supercharger moves the charging smarts from the car into the Supercharger unit itself. This means the Supercharger has to know the details of the battery pack - # of cells, capacity, etc. - and this is done with a (Tesla-specific) software exchange between the car and the Supercharger. So, for cars to be compatible, they need this Tesla software functionality and batteries within a certain range and design.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Standardization on (fast) charging and battery tech will never come on its own, and it will be a bad thing when it does (i.e., through the force of immoral government action), for it will radically slow the pace of innovation.
Yea, we heard you the first 1000 times, and you're still wrong. Thanks
I think standardization of charging will be inevitable, just like fuel and fuel pumps.
Edit: Are there any gas station empires embracing electric charging? Or will they start to disappear as gas phases out and electric becomes the norm over the next few decades? Surely they're paying attention to this...
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 14, 2017, 04:34:12 PM
I think standardization of charging will be inevitable, just like fuel and fuel pumps.
Edit: Are there any gas station empires embracing electric charging? Or will they start to disappear as gas phases out and electric becomes the norm over the next few decades? Surely they're paying attention to this...
You'd think Shell, BP, or Chevron would have some sort of plan. The lack of a connector standard might be holding them back?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
It's much more than just a connector.
The Supercharger moves the charging smarts from the car into the Supercharger unit itself. This means the Supercharger has to know the details of the battery pack - # of cells, capacity, etc. - and this is done with a (Tesla-specific) software exchange between the car and the Supercharger. So, for cars to be compatible, they need this Tesla software functionality and batteries within a certain range and design.
So how do Teslas work in Europe?...
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 14, 2017, 04:40:06 PM
You'd think Shell, BP, or Chevron would have some sort of plan. The lack of a connector standard might be holding them back?
Could be. Until electric charging becomes very widespread and able to make them big money, I don't see why they'd really bother. But, I've no real idea what the charging infrastructure is like at this point. I've only ever seen EV charging stations in parking garages and shit.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
It's much more than just a connector.
The Supercharger moves the charging smarts from the car into the Supercharger unit itself. This means the Supercharger has to know the details of the battery pack - # of cells, capacity, etc. - and this is done with a (Tesla-specific) software exchange between the car and the Supercharger. So, for cars to be compatible, they need this Tesla software functionality and batteries within a certain range and design.
Tesla's proprietary signalling protocol isn't substantially different than the SAE standard, but yes, it's true the greatest stumbling block is that Tesla simply won't open the proverbial cookie jar to other manufacturers by keeping the Tesla-specific parts of the electronic handshake a secret. Fundamentally the only reason why a Chevy Spark EV can't charge at a Tesla Supercharger is when that electronic handshake begins and the car says "Hey, I'm a Chevy Spark EV and I can handle _______ amps of DC; fill me up!" the Tesla Supercharger replies "I'm for Teslas only, so unplug yourself and go choke on a cock."
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 14, 2017, 04:34:12 PM
I think standardization of charging will be inevitable, just like fuel and fuel pumps.
Edit: Are there any gas station empires embracing electric charging? Or will they start to disappear as gas phases out and electric becomes the norm over the next few decades? Surely they're paying attention to this...
Gas stations will decline in necessity big time. You can put an electric charger anywhere. Only places they might be are at rest stops, but otherwise I think most people would be happy to charge at home or at work.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 14, 2017, 05:45:20 PM
Gas stations will decline in necessity big time. You can put an electric charger anywhere. Only places they might be are at rest stops, but otherwise I think most people would be happy to charge at home or at work.
Right. But once electric cars are the norm, you're gonna need charging stations outside of home/work for those that are, like, traveling...like gas stations off the highways are now. :huh:
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 14, 2017, 05:52:35 PM
Right. But once electric cars are the norm, you're gonna need charging stations outside of home/work for those that are, like, traveling...like gas stations off the highways are now. :huh:
Yea, you just said what I said :lol:
The gas stations ~1 mile from my house will probably become something else. But the ones on the highway on my commute to nowhere will become charging stations. Point is the # of "fueling stations" will definitely go down.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 02:03:38 PM
Standardization on (fast) charging and battery tech will never come on its own, and it will be a bad thing when it does (i.e., through the force of immoral government action), for it will radically slow the pace of innovation.
yeah cuz standardization killed the vhs, CD, bluray, HDMI, WiFi, gasoline, etc... Markets....
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 14, 2017, 06:28:19 PM
yeah cuz standardization killed the vhs, CD, bluray, HDMI, WiFi, gasoline, etc... Markets....
None of those (except maybe gasoline) was due to government intervention.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on September 14, 2017, 06:30:57 PM
None of those (except maybe gasoline) was due to government intervention.
Not sure about the others, bur wifi is highly regulated.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on September 14, 2017, 06:30:57 PM
None of those (except maybe gasoline) was due to government intervention.
But gov't has already intervened. It practically paid for Tesla's vast charging network.
Quote from: Rockraven on September 14, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
But gov't has already intervened. It practically paid for Tesla's vast charging network.
Fair enough
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 05:39:14 PM
Tesla's proprietary signalling protocol isn't substantially different than the SAE standard, but yes, it's true the greatest stumbling block is that Tesla simply won't open the proverbial cookie jar to other manufacturers by keeping the Tesla-specific parts of the electronic handshake a secret. Fundamentally the only reason why a Chevy Spark EV can't charge at a Tesla Supercharger is when that electronic handshake begins and the car says "Hey, I'm a Chevy Spark EV and I can handle _______ amps of DC; fill me up!" the Tesla Supercharger replies "I'm for Teslas only, so unplug yourself and go choke on a cock."
It's more than just comm protocol too. The charging system has to know the specifics of the battery pack, which means for Tesla to allow non-Tesla cars to work on Superchargers Tesla would have to go through the work of validating the charging protocol of each non-Tesla battery pack. If Tesla were to sign onto some sort of standard, it would have taken much longer for them to roll out the Supercharger network, as the tables would have been turned - Tesla would beholden to some other entity for comm and charge protocols.
So, it's connector + comm protocol + charging protocol. Rolling out the Supercharging stations as fast as they have done has been critical to EV acceptance, and Tesla cars in specific.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2017, 07:56:09 PM
It's more than just comm protocol too. The charging system has to know the specifics of the battery pack, which means for Tesla to allow non-Tesla cars to work on Superchargers Tesla would have to go through the work of validating the charging protocol of each non-Tesla battery pack. If Tesla were to sign onto some sort of standard, it would have taken much longer for them to roll out the Supercharger network, as the tables would have been turned - Tesla would beholden to some other entity for comm and charge protocols.
So, it's connector + comm protocol + charging protocol. Rolling out the Supercharging stations as fast as they have done has been critical to EV acceptance, and Tesla cars in specific.
Which is not a problem with the IEC 62196 Typ 2 standard, which charges everything from BMW, Mercedes, VW, Volvo, Tesla, GM, Renault and so on.
Quote from: AltinD on September 14, 2017, 02:41:10 PM
Are you serious? Not only the VW group has been experimenting with autonomous driving long before Tesla was even created, but the new Audi A8 is already equipped with a much more advanced system, though not yet activated due to legislation. And don't forget that Teslas autopilot has just been partially blamed for the deadly accident of the guy who hit a lorry because the camera couldn't made the difference between a white color vehicle and the bright sky
I am serious. At least in the U.S. there is nothing even remotely close to what is available from Tesla for the general public today regarding autonomous driving. It's not foolproof and the guy who died was a moron and was warned by Tesla several times prior to dying that he was being a moron.
Quote from: 93JC on September 14, 2017, 05:39:14 PM
"Hey, I'm a Chevy Spark EV and I can handle _______ amps of DC; fill me up!" the Tesla Supercharger replies "I'm for Teslas only, so unplug yourself and go choke on a cock."
HA
Quote from: AltinD on September 14, 2017, 02:41:10 PM
Are you serious? Not only the VW group has been experimenting with autonomous driving long before Tesla was even created, but the new Audi A8 is already equipped with a much more advanced system, though not yet activated due to legislation. And don't forget that Teslas autopilot has just been partially blamed for the deadly accident of the guy who hit a lorry because the camera couldn't made the difference between a white color vehicle and the bright sky
Not available due to legislation = not ready other than for demo journalists rides. Just like Audi's electrics so far. A joke.
Tesla has a HUGE advantage in the autopilot space. People forget that Tesla built deep instrumentation into their cars from day one. They have been collecting reams of data to help them continuously improve their ML automation models. They have at least an order of magnitude more data than anyone else from sensors and camera in all of their cars.