https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/4063973-car-and-driver-announces-zr1-first-pic-and-info.html
750HP. Not as much exotic stuff as one would expect.
Excited about this vs Mid engine Corvette.
Manufacturers need a new gimmick besides horsepower
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2017, 08:34:02 PM
Manufacturers need a new gimmick besides horsepower
That's the #1 way to make a car faster. :huh:
Boost the power then improve the chassis to be able to handle it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 08, 2017, 08:34:02 PM
Manufacturers need a new gimmick besides horsepower
It's a goddamn Corvette, dude. :lol:
Cause the Z06 already didn't have enough issues with its monsterous power, 110 more HP can't possibly make it any worse..
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 08, 2017, 08:43:54 PM
That's the #1 way to make a car faster. :huh:
Boost the power then improve the chassis to be able to handle it.
To what end? Just seems stupid for a street car. And six figures will easily put you in a purpose built track car. IDK I'm just tired of this horsepower hedonistic treadmill. Performance car makers have run out of ideas
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2017, 08:14:23 AM
To what end? Just seems stupid for a street car. And six figures will easily put you in a purpose built track car. IDK I'm just tired of this horsepower hedonistic treadmill. Performance car makers have run out of ideas
Or they fucking build what people are buying.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 08, 2017, 08:43:54 PM
That's the #1 way to make a car faster. :huh:
Boost the power then improve the chassis to be able to handle it.
Does anyone need a faster car to drive on the street?
I can understand if you're competing for 'fastest car in the world'. Apparently Koenigsegg just got that back, but just to add a bit of boost for marketing purposes doesn't really add to a car's driving appeal. I'll be impressed when Corvette shows up with a mid-engine modern sports car.
I'm sort of with sporty and "yay, even more power -rolleyes-"
Well, it's not like that's all they did...
What the hell guys. Corvette builds another exotic slayer for 1/3rd the price, as they've always done with each model cycle, and we're bitching?
Quote from: Rockraven on November 09, 2017, 11:29:18 AM
What the hell guys. Corvette builds another exotic slayer for 1/3rd the price, as they've always done with each model cycle, and we're bitching?
Because the Camaro is the better car ;).
Quote from: Rockraven on November 09, 2017, 11:29:18 AM
What the hell guys. Corvette builds another exotic slayer for 1/3rd the price, as they've always done with each model cycle, and we're bitching?
Theres more to exotics than bench racing stats. It's just a broken record at this point. Plus they never sorted out the Z06 so I don't know what another 100HP is supposed to do. It's time for the mid engined Zora.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 09, 2017, 08:15:15 AM
Or they fucking build what people are buying.
I'm not questioning the business case for these, I'm sure the C&C crowd will be all over them. I'm just kind of over this rinse lather repeat cycle personally :huh:
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2017, 11:59:58 AM
Because the Camaro is the better car ;).
The almighty market disagrees
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2017, 11:59:58 AM
Because the Camaro is the better car ;).
The Camaro is definitely a track monster, but for me it's a a ridiculous car beyond $50k.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
Well, it's not like that's all they did...
They did something else?
Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
They did something else?
Well there's that big wing too.
It would be fair to assume there's some significant suspension changes. And special embroidery on the seats.
Oh well then, I'm ultra impressed
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2017, 12:04:36 PM
Theres more to exotics than bench racing stats. It's just a broken record at this point. Plus they never sorted out the Z06 so I don't know what another 100HP is supposed to do. It's time for the mid engined Zora.
Have you not seen how well the ZL1 1LE is sorted out? This thing will be a beast and I'm sure some of thos records held by the Viper ACR TA will ge getting broken also!
Quote from: Rockraven on November 09, 2017, 11:29:18 AM
What the hell guys. Corvette builds another exotic slayer for 1/3rd the price, as they've always done with each model cycle, and we're bitching?
I'm not complaining! I can't wait to see how this thing kicks German and Italian ass at the next VIR shootout!
A lot of hate going around (Jalopnik commenters mostly) for the styling, but fuck 'em... I love it.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/lmgcjxzoex6ipbq2qzpg.jpg)
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/sgzglm93ovspfpnblzuv.jpg)
Sexy.
The grille is a little outrageous, but I'm sure it's a matter of function over form.
Quote from: MX793 on November 12, 2017, 06:26:23 PM
The grille is a little outrageous, but I'm sure it's a matter of function over form.
Yeah, it's got 13 coolers.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 12, 2017, 06:27:37 PM
Yeah, it's got 13 coolers.
How many does the stock Z06 have?
Quote from: Rockraven on November 12, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/sgzglm93ovspfpnblzuv.jpg)
Sexy!!!!!!
Quote from: Xer0 on November 12, 2017, 09:15:46 PM
How many does the stock Z06 have?
8 maybe?
No one can complain about the grill if they also complained about the heat problems on the Z06.
Meh...Corvettes have always had great looking silhouette, but loose it entirely in the details...tacked on wings, air intakes, ground effects, etc.
Quote from: Submariner on November 12, 2017, 09:55:25 PM
Meh...Corvettes have always had great looking silhouette, but loose it entirely in the details...tacked on wings, air intakes, ground effects, etc.
Seen a 911 GT3 RS lately.....
GT3 RS was always crazy though. C7 looks Japanese... not in a good way like the last RX-7; the Civic Type R comparisons are apt
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 13, 2017, 06:39:53 AM
GT3 RS was always crazy though. C7 looks Japanese... not in a good way like the last RX-7; the Civic Type R comparisons are apt
Apparently you've never seen a '63 Grand Sport
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 13, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Apparently you've never seen a '63 Grand Sport
Was going to mention this, although I see this look as something more akin to the old IMSA GT cars and street versions inspired by them like the Greenwood Vettes and things Koenig and Ruf did with the Germans.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 13, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Apparently you've never seen a '63 Grand Sport
Thank goodness for dear old Zora. Without him, you guys wouldn't have much to brag about. :ohyeah:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 13, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Apparently you've never seen a '63 Grand Sport
I hadn't. But the fact that you had to go back 54 years to find another overstyled Corvette kind of proves my point :lol:
C6 is peak Corvette IMO aside from the Ebay special headlights.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 13, 2017, 01:07:44 PM
C6 is peak Corvette IMO aside from the Ebay special headlights.
I agree. The right amount of style and the right amount of aggressive.
Quote from: giant_mtb on November 13, 2017, 01:09:40 PM
I agree. The right amount of style and the right amount of aggressive.
Yup...... :praise:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 13, 2017, 01:07:44 PM
I hadn't. But the fact that you had to go back 54 years to find another overstyled Corvette kind of proves my point :lol:
C6 is peak Corvette IMO aside from the Ebay special headlights.
I went all the way back to '63 to show that overstlying has been a part of the Corvette's DNA since the beginning.
(Not that I like the Grand Sport. I think it's ugly. This ZR1 is okay. Form follows function)
Is this the most powerful manual transmission car?
Quote from: Galaxy on November 13, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
Is this the most powerful manual transmission car?
Since the Demon is auto only, yes I think it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_adY_b-aLQ
I'd like to see the 10 speed in it...
Starts at $120k
That's GT3 money.....................................................
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 29, 2017, 01:57:58 PM
That's GT3 money.....................................................
Some people would rather have a Corvette....................................
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 29, 2017, 01:57:58 PM
That's GT3 money.....................................................
And I'm willing to bet it puts the GT3 on the trailer..........
This will have a better power/weight ratio better than anything that isn't a $1M+ hyper exotic. Whether it can put it down in a meaningful manner, well, that is TBD.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 29, 2017, 01:57:58 PM
That's GT3 money.....................................................
I was looking at the GT3 configurator the other day and was surprised that the GT3's now starts at 143K. And in standard Porsche fashion, they nickel and dime you for everything. if you want like things like seats that adjust more than 4 ways ($2640) or paint that isn't one of 4 flat colors ($720-$4220), or ceramic brakes ($9200), it quickly puts to price to 160K. I think those are all features the ZR1 comes with.
And some of the options are just hilarious. You can get your air vents painted for $1700. I just clicked all the options just for shits and giggles and you can get it to go over 200K.
Quote from: 565 on November 29, 2017, 06:03:06 PM
I was looking at the GT3 configurator the other day and was surprised that the GT3's now starts at 143K. And in standard Porsche fashion, they nickel and dime you for everything. if you want like things like seats that adjust more than 4 ways ($2640) or paint that isn't one of 4 flat colors ($720-$4220), or ceramic brakes ($9200), it quickly puts to price to 160K. I think those are all features the ZR1 comes with.
And some of the options are just hilarious. You can get your air vents painted for $1700. I just clicked all the options just for shits and giggles and you can get it to go over 200K.
Crazy!
(https://s5.postimg.org/clw6u15vr/6218933_F-52_EE-4_DD3-84_CC-88_B0_B753_E348.jpg)
Daaaamn
I think many saw that coming.
To be fair, the current Ford GT is a race car first, compromised a fair amount, to run on the street. The ZR1 is honed to run on the street and track, and is every bit a production car.
But yeah, GM has Ford's number when it comes to performance, and has, for quite some time.
Will be interesting to see what the Zora does
GM should break Corvette off into it's own marque.
Stingray
Grand Sport
ZR1
Zora
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 31, 2018, 04:20:11 PM
Will be interesting to see what the Zora does
Why even bother making it?
Quote from: Rockraven on January 31, 2018, 04:22:50 PM
GM should break Corvette off into it's own marque.
Stingray
Grand Sport
ZR1
Zora
Yup! It makes sense to keep the Regular Vette (Poop Rods) and have a limited production rear engine (DOHC) model!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on January 31, 2018, 04:53:14 PM
Why even bother making it?
I think they're pretty much at the limit of performance for the "Front Engined" Vette!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on January 31, 2018, 06:11:48 PM
I think they're pretty much at the limit of performance for the "Front Engined" Vette!
I feel like that's what people have been saying for quite a while now.
Quote from: giant_mtb on January 31, 2018, 07:01:40 PM
I feel like that's what people have been saying for quite a while now.
True! Maybe they should add an AWD model (No SUV) along with the rear engine car! All bases covered......
Video!
https://youtu.be/j7j1gCM6-5M
Quote from: Rockraven on January 31, 2018, 04:22:50 PM
GM should break Corvette off into it's own marque.
Stingray
Grand Sport
ZR1
Zora
I said this years ago, and people said I was crazy. I think they should bring the Camaro and redo the SS under that brand. Escalade should be its own brand as well.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 01, 2018, 05:43:01 AM
I said this years ago, and people said I was crazy. I think they should bring the Camaro and redo the SS under that brand. Escalade should be its own brand as well.
No. This is BS modern marketing that ruins brands and their legacy. The Camaro is not a Corvette - they both have their own storied history and customers.
Base model Corvette with v6 for under $50k. Could do with a slightly lighter duty drivetrain and decontented interior for a target weight of ~3000lbs.
Quote from: 68_427 on February 01, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
Base model Corvette with v6 for under $50k. Could do with a slightly lighter duty drivetrain and decontented interior for a target weight of ~3000lbs.
When they were developing the Solstice, they briefly flirted with a Chevy version, and even talked of putting it under the Corvette marque as an entry level roadster. I remember reading they also discussed a Corvette-Cadillac marque, with their own upscale dealership network.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 01, 2018, 07:49:52 AM
No. This is BS modern marketing that ruins brands and their legacy. The Camaro is not a Corvette - they both have their own storied history and customers.
I would bet the average Camaro buyer today is more influenced by its appearance in Transformers than its storied history, which from what I've seen is largely women in the rural south buying V6s, and rental companies buyin urrrthang :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 01, 2018, 11:18:13 AM
I would bet the average Camaro buyer today is more influenced by its appearance in Transformers than its storied history, which from what I've seen is largely women in the rural south buying V6s, and rental companies buyin urrrthang :lol:
But if Escalade is its own brand, what does that make Cadillac...GM's premier brand...? lol
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 01, 2018, 01:24:25 PM
But if Escalade is its own brand, what does that make Cadillac...GM's premier brand...? lol
Exactly. Consolidated brands can build much better equity. There's a reason Scion is gone.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 01, 2018, 01:33:31 PM
Exactly. Consolidated brands can build much better equity. There's a reason Scion is gone.
Every model should be its own brand!
Quote from: 68_427 on February 01, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
Base model Corvette with v6 for under $50k. Could do with a slightly lighter duty drivetrain and decontented interior for a target weight of ~3000lbs.
A hypothetical 300hp, 45K or so Corvette would probably get destroyed by the 45K Camaro SS 1LE that's on the dealer lot and I doubt anyone would buy it. Making a down market Vette unfortunately runs into the wall that is the current Camaro which already puts a ton of pressure on the Vettes as is.
The Camaro basically is the new Corvette. Corvette sales dropped dramatically when the new Camaro came out.
2007, they sold 40,500 Vettes. New Camaro comes out. Sales plummeted more than 50% within two years...and stayed that low until ~2014 when they broke back into the 30k sales mark.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 01, 2018, 01:59:49 PM
The Camaro basically is the new Corvette. Corvette sales dropped dramatically when the new Camaro came out.
2007, they sold 40,500 Vettes. New Camaro comes out. Sales plummeted more than 50% within two years...and stayed that low until ~2014 when they broke back into the 30k sales mark.
Everything dropped in 2008-09. The Camaro did well because it was its rebirth. I don't believe the Camaro had anything to do with 'Vette sales... different market demographic.
Then what explains the ~7 years of shit Vette sales while everyone was ejaculating all over the Transformer Machine? 2008 wasn't seven years long. :huh:
I realize they're different demographics, but I see just as many FOGs driving new Camaros as I see housewives in V6s.
Quote from: Xer0 on February 01, 2018, 01:50:43 PM
A hypothetical 300hp, 45K or so Corvette would probably get destroyed by the 45K Camaro SS 1LE that's on the dealer lot and I doubt anyone would buy it. Making a down market Vette unfortunately runs into the wall that is the current Camaro which already puts a ton of pressure on the Vettes as is.
Yup! Thats why I say keep the front engine Vette as the entry model........
Quote from: Xer0 on February 01, 2018, 01:50:43 PM
A hypothetical 300hp, 45K or so Corvette would probably get destroyed by the 45K Camaro SS 1LE that's on the dealer lot and I doubt anyone would buy it. Making a down market Vette unfortunately runs into the wall that is the current Camaro which already puts a ton of pressure on the Vettes as is.
V6 Corvette buyers and SS 1LE buyers would be completely different people we all know that.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 01, 2018, 01:24:25 PM
But if Escalade is its own brand, what does that make Cadillac...GM's premier brand...? lol
Cadillac is a garbage can, Escalade is floating the brand
Imo, splitting off the Corvette brand would be as dumb as splitting Ram from Dodge. However Fiat/Chrysler did that sooo...
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 01, 2018, 04:26:29 PM
Cadillac is a garbage can, Escalade is floating the brand
The Escalade accounted for less than 15% of Cadillac's total sales last year...?
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 01, 2018, 04:42:02 PM
The Escalade accounted for less than 15% of Cadillac's total sales last year...?
You're right, forgot about the XT5
But the XT5 is the only Caddy w/o double digit losses. And even it was down from this December vs last. I thought the Escalade was strong but it's not. Whole brand is being carried by *drumroll* an Epsilon based car. I think someone here said Caddy should pivot to that but I can't remember who :hmm:
Quote from: 68_427 on February 01, 2018, 03:19:22 PM
V6 Corvette buyers and SS 1LE buyers would be completely different people we all know that.
I honestly don't think so, but using a garden variety SS illustrates the same point anyway. A V6 Vette wouldn't even be that much cheaper anyway.
Word. Camaro and Corvette, and all their incarnations, are inexorably linked to Chevrolet.
"Jeep" and now "Ram" are their own brand because Chrysler as a whole is failing, and these two were pretty much all that was good.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 01, 2018, 06:14:10 PM
Word. Camaro and Corvette, and all their incarnations, are inexorably linked to Chevrolet.
"Jeep" and now "Ram" are their own brand because Chrysler as a whole is failing, and these two were pretty much all that was good.
I agree! But I also think the Vette should have its own "Space" within the brand. Separate showrooms (2 or 3 car) and Service bays. Even if they are located on existing Chevy lots. Although the Vette is considered "Cheap" it's still a lotta dough to (60K-120K) drop on a toy. The owners should have a better dealer experience than someone buying 20K subcompact. Just my biased .02
We have a huge Corvette only showroom here (Van Bortel Corvette) and it's doing VERY well.
Quote from: 68_427 on February 02, 2018, 04:36:33 AM
We have a huge Corvette only showroom here (Van Bortel Corvette) and it's doing VERY well.
I just googled it! That's exactly what the Corvette needs......
I'd buy a $45K Corvette before a $45K Camaro, even if the latter is faster.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 02, 2018, 11:11:27 AM
I'd buy a $45K Corvette before a $45K Camaro, even if the latter is faster.
I bet you aren't the only one. It's not like a 350hp 3000lbs car is a slouch
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 02, 2018, 11:00:30 AM
I just googled it! That's exactly what the Corvette needs......
They work on modded Corvettes too 😎
Quote from: 68_427 on February 02, 2018, 05:12:14 PM
They work on modded Corvettes too 😎
If you want to make your Corvette go fast go to McCluskey Chevrolet in Cincinnati
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 02, 2018, 05:38:37 PM
If you want to make your Corvette go fast go to McCluskey Chevrolet in Cincinnati
I meant they'll let some things slide when it comes to warranty claims
Quote from: 68_427 on February 02, 2018, 05:10:26 PM
I bet you aren't the only one. It's not like a 350hp 3000lbs car is a slouch
But the 370Z is basically that and DOA. Plus I think the C7 is like 3400lb to start
I think the big driver there would be the brand. But there is only so much market capacity for 2 seaters
The GM V6 weighs a little over 100lbs less than the LT1, so there is 3250lbs. (The base C7 is 3350) I'm sure they would get it to 3100 or just slightly below since the drive line wouldn't have to be as heavy duty, smaller brakes/wheels/tires etc. And yes the Corvette brand image would be important as always, but it couldn't hurt to get the starting price to under $50k again.
There's no way GM will put a V6 in a Vette! You think Ford caught hell for using a V6 in the new GT? Vette guys would never forgive GM for that! If you want a V6 sports car buy a Camaro or go elsewhere.......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 05, 2018, 08:03:22 PM
There's no way GM will put a V6 in a Vette! You think Ford caught hell for using a V6 in the new GT? Vette guys would never forgive GM for that! If you want a V6 sports car buy a Camaro or go elsewhere.......
I would not bet money on that.
The first 'Vette had a 6.
Quote from: Galaxy on February 09, 2018, 07:06:56 PM
I would not bet money on that.
I think I would.
The cost differential between a DOHC V6 and pooprod V8 can't be a lot. On the Silverado, all else the same, it's only a $1,200 charge to move from a pooprod V6 to the 5.3L pooprod V8 (and a DOHC V6 is obviously more expensive than a pooprod V6). Designing a rear transaxle for just the V6 could very well be cost prohibitive. Even if so, that, plus samller brakes/wheels/tires, all told, I bet you'd not be looking at more than $5,000 or so savings, and that's on a ~$55,000 car. I think it's the case of the 1er or CLA - it'd be so decontented the existing customer base wouldn't really be too interested.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 05, 2018, 08:03:22 PM
There's no way GM will put a V6 in a Vette! You think Ford caught hell for using a V6 in the new GT? Vette guys would never forgive GM for that! If you want a V6 sports car buy a Camaro or go elsewhere.......
They'd have to do a twin turbo first; and sell it as a new breed of Vette. Performance would have to
nip at the heels of the regular Vette, but the whole package would be marketed as a little more raw. Less comfort, more Serious Business.
That would sell; then after its established, you unveil the NA "club sport" V6 Vette.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 08, 2017, 08:43:54 PM
That's the #1 way to make a car faster. :huh:
Boost the power then improve the chassis to be able to handle it.
I'd argue that making a car lighter is the number one way. And it improves everything else.
Whoa
Quote from: Onslaught on February 10, 2018, 10:57:23 AM
I'd argue that making a car lighter is the number one way. And it improves everything else.
With 5 posts, you don't get an opinion yet. Noob.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
With 5 posts, you don't get an opinion yet. Noob.
Can I buy points?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 09, 2018, 10:07:06 PM
I think I would.
The cost differential between a DOHC V6 and pooprod V8 can't be a lot. On the Silverado, all else the same, it's only a $1,200 charge to move from a pooprod V6 to the 5.3L pooprod V8 (and a DOHC V6 is obviously more expensive than a pooprod V6). Designing a rear transaxle for just the V6 could very well be cost prohibitive. Even if so, that, plus samller brakes/wheels/tires, all told, I bet you'd not be looking at more than $5,000 or so savings, and that's on a ~$55,000 car. I think it's the case of the 1er or CLA - it'd be so decontented the existing customer base wouldn't really be too interested.
What automakers charge for options isn't necessarily reflective of the actual cost to implement them. There are also economies of scale benefits that come with the 5.3. The 4.3 V6 is only offered in the lowest trims of the half-ton truck line. The V8s (5.3 and 6.2) are used in a wider range of vehicles and sell in higher volumes. And, since the 5.3 is just a de-bored version of the 6.2, there is more that can be shared (like crankshafts).
Why would they need to completely redesign the transaxle for a V6? Different gear ratios, sure, but they change up the gear ratios (and gear strength) depending on which of the V8 motors is equipped. Also, the transmission sections of the Vette's transaxle are heavily based on non-transaxle transmissions used in many other GM vehicles (like the 8L90 8AT).
The 3.6 V6 in the Camaro is a jewel. I just checked the configurator and it starts at $27K. The 6.2 V8 starts at $37K. A Corvette with the 3.6, and 300-400 lbs trimmed off, coming in at $45,000 would do just fine, IMHO.
Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2018, 11:37:56 AM
What automakers charge for options isn't necessarily reflective of the actual cost to implement them. There are also economies of scale benefits that come with the 5.3. The 4.3 V6 is only offered in the lowest trims of the half-ton truck line. The V8s (5.3 and 6.2) are used in a wider range of vehicles and sell in higher volumes. And, since the 5.3 is just a de-bored version of the 6.2, there is more that can be shared (like crankshafts).
Sure there is definable correlation, otherwise the cost differentiation would not exist.
Quote
Why would they need to completely redesign the transaxle for a V6? Different gear ratios, sure, but they change up the gear ratios (and gear strength) depending on which of the V8 motors is equipped. Also, the transmission sections of the Vette's transaxle are heavily based on non-transaxle transmissions used in many other GM vehicles (like the 8L90 8AT).
That was the Presumed Proffered Premise ("drive line wouldn't have to be as heavy duty"); weaker motor = opportunity for less expensive transaxle.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 11:58:00 AM
The 3.6 V6 in the Camaro is a jewel. I just checked the configurator and it starts at $27K. The 6.2 V8 starts at $37K. A Corvette with the 3.6, and 300-400 lbs trimmed off, coming in at $45,000 would do just fine, IMHO.
The V6 Camaro is a beast no doubt but the $27k base V6 model is a rental fleet grade, which has been part of the Camaro lineup since day one. The Corvette has never had such a trim level.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2018, 12:23:54 PM
Sure there is definable correlation, otherwise the cost differentiation would not exist.
Do you think it costs GM $10K more to build an Escalade vs a Yukon Denali?
Do you think the Turbo-4 banger in the Explorer costs $900 more to make than the DOHC V6 base engine? Do you think Ford's 3.5TT V6 costs $2K more to make than the 2.7TT V6?
Actually, you have to subtract out the margin; i.e., the difference to build is not the difference in revenue. In theory, cost is not a factor in price - it's what the market will bear, but yes, yes and yes, in principal; if it costs more to purchase the model/option it costs the automaker more to make it.
Well that's not always true. When the MX-5 came out people paid way over the sticker price for it. So they just raised the price right after that with no changes to the car.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 11:58:00 AM
The 3.6 V6 in the Camaro is a jewel. I just checked the configurator and it starts at $27K. The 6.2 V8 starts at $37K. A Corvette with the 3.6, and 300-400 lbs trimmed off, coming in at $45,000 would do just fine, IMHO.
There's no way Chevy is trimming 400lbs by using the V6. The V6 Camaro vs V8 Camaro is around 200 lbs and that also includes bigger brakes, 20in vs 18in wheels, an LSD, and tons of extra cooling in the V8 car. I also doubt there is 10K that GM can easily take out of the Vette to make this hypothetical car exist.
Quote from: Xer0 on February 10, 2018, 01:50:15 PM
There's no way Chevy is trimming 400lbs by using the V6. The V6 Camaro vs V8 Camaro is around 200 lbs and that also includes bigger brakes, 20in vs 18in wheels, an LSD, and tons of extra cooling in the V8 car. I also doubt there is 10K that GM can easily take out of the Vette to make this hypothetical car exist.
There's more to trimming than just the engine. Lots of components can be trimmed down or swapped out for lighter ones. If GM can make the entry level V6 Camaro priced $10K less than the entry V8, it's not impossible to make an entry level 'Vette come in at $12-15K less than the Stingray. $63,000+ is still just out of range for most people, and the $30K range already has several sportscar options. The $40-50K range is an unfilled sweet spot, IMHO.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 02:58:15 PM
There's more to trimming than just the engine. Lots of components can be trimmed down or swapped out for lighter ones. If GM can make the entry level V6 Camaro priced $10K less than the entry V8, it's not impossible to make an entry level 'Vette come in at $12-15K less than the Stingray. $63,000+ is still just out of range for most people, and the $30K range already has several sportscar options. The $40-50K range is an unfilled sweet spot, IMHO.
Camaro is on a shared platform with several other vehicles. Vette is bespoke and fabricated using more expensive methods (hydroformed frame). Economies of scale.
Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2018, 03:10:54 PM
Camaro is on a shared platform with several other vehicles. Vette is bespoke and fabricated using more expensive methods (hydroformed frame). Economies of scale.
Right, economies of scale. 100,000 units of the platform vs 40,000. (Unsure the numbers, but the point stands).
Hell, dust of the Kappa (Solstice/Sky). It was an excellent yet underutilized platform.
It costs MORE money to strip weight. Not less
You guys suck.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 03:24:39 PM
Right, economies of scale. 100,000 units of the platform vs 40,000. (Unsure the numbers, but the point stands).
Hell, dust of the Kappa (Solstice/Sky). It was an excellent yet underutilized platform.
It was also a really compromised platform. No trunk space, clunky roof mechanism, and it used a very similar frame, fabricated using the same expensive process, as the Vette. The Colorado pickup transmission paired with an engine to which the ratios weren't set up for didn't help much either.
Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2018, 03:36:58 PM
It was also a really compromised platform. No trunk space, clunky roof mechanism, and it used a very similar frame, fabricated using the same expensive process, as the Vette. The Colorado pickup transmission paired with an engine to which the ratios weren't set up for didn't help much either.
None of this has anything to do with the basic platform, except the fabrication part. They were still able to crank out $25K sportscars with this platform.
Quote from: Rockraven on February 09, 2018, 09:49:38 PM
The first 'Vette had a 6.
And it was 2 seconds from being CANCELLED! The V8 saved it! :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 10, 2018, 11:09:19 AM
Whoa
:hesaid: The cost of Tooling ALONE at the Plant wouldn't be worth it. If you want the V6 buy a Camaro!
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2018, 03:42:33 PM
None of this has anything to do with the basic platform, except the fabrication part. They were still able to crank out $25K sportscars with this platform.
Which received mediocre reviews and sold poorly. The lack of storage space (by even small roadster standards) and poorly executed convertible top were inherent to the platform. Much like the Fiero before it, the Skystice was a great concept foiled by parts-bin engineering.
Quote from: Xer0 on February 10, 2018, 01:50:15 PM
There's no way Chevy is trimming 400lbs by using the V6. The V6 Camaro vs V8 Camaro is around 200 lbs and that also includes bigger brakes, 20in vs 18in wheels, an LSD, and tons of extra cooling in the V8 car. I also doubt there is 10K that GM can easily take out of the Vette to make this hypothetical car exist.
Much of the Corvette's price premium is tied up in the space frame chassis, plastic/fantastic body panels and rear-mount transaxle. All those things would remain for a V6 option. The only way to suck $10k out of it is by virtually killing it - cloth interior, rental spec wheels/tires, no infotainment, etc. Virtually no one would buy such a thing. They'd take their $45k and buy a loaded Camaro 2SS, which would be its better in all objective and subjective measures.
Transaxle has to stay, but I wonder if there would be significant net benefits to moving to a conventional platform. Odd, given that Alpha sacrificed so much for sportiness (to the point that they cannot build crossovers off of it) that they did not use it for the Vette. Starting with the Vette as the base for that platform kind of makes sense. "Derived from the Corvette" has a good marketing ring to it... much better than "Tuned 3000 miles away"
Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2018, 06:59:02 PM
Much of the Corvette's price premium is tied up in the space frame chassis, plastic/fantastic body panels and rear-mount transaxle. All those things would remain for a V6 option. The only way to suck $10k out of it is by virtually killing it - cloth interior, rental spec wheels/tires, no infotainment, etc. Virtually no one would buy such a thing. They'd take their $45k and buy a loaded Camaro 2SS, which would be its better in all objective and subjective measures.
I'd certainly buy it over a $45,000 Camaro.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2018, 08:38:38 AM
Transaxle has to stay, but I wonder if there would be significant net benefits to moving to a conventional platform. Odd, given that Alpha sacrificed so much for sportiness (to the point that they cannot build crossovers off of it) that they did not use it for the Vette. Starting with the Vette as the base for that platform kind of makes sense. "Derived from the Corvette" has a good marketing ring to it... much better than "Tuned 3000 miles away"
because making a near-supercar level coupe off a sedan chassis nets you a 350Z.
Quote from: 2o6 on February 12, 2018, 12:38:56 PM
because making a near-supercar level coupe off a sedan chassis nets you a 350Z.
What about making a sedan off of a pure sports car platform?
Quote from: 2o6 on February 12, 2018, 12:38:56 PM
because making a near-supercar level coupe off a sedan chassis nets you a 350Z.
Which not only outperformed the Mustang of the times, but it was a decent hit along with the G35; both helped put Nissan back on the performance/enthusiast map. It's also worked wonders for the 5th and 6th gen Camaro.
The Corvette has always been its own standalone thing. No one is buying a stripper $45k V6 Corvette no matter how that's achieved, and GM knows this.
Yea sports cars are never going to be volume sellers, no matter how many cheap variants are made. Jag did just as you guys suggested by putting the 2.0T in the F-Type and sales are still down. What is the point of a Vette that don't put hair on your chest???
Quote from: GoCougs on February 12, 2018, 12:57:50 PM
The Corvette has always been its own standalone thing. No one is buying a stripper $45k V6 Corvette no matter how that's achieved, and GM knows this.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 12, 2018, 01:06:22 PM
Yea sports cars are never going to be volume sellers, no matter how many cheap variants are made. Jag did just as you guys suggested by putting the 2.0T in the F-Type and sales are still down. What is the point of a Vette that don't put hair on your chest???
YUP!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 12, 2018, 12:54:53 PM
What about making a sedan off of a pure sports car platform?
Then you get absolutely no room
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 12, 2018, 01:06:22 PM
Yea sports cars are never going to be volume sellers, no matter how many cheap variants are made. Jag did just as you guys suggested by putting the 2.0T in the F-Type and sales are still down. What is the point of a Vette that don't put hair on your chest???
Well, they sort of shot themselves in the foot. Nearly 300hp and it doesn't even really outrun my 10 year old Z4 for a $62K starting price. No manual and 3700 pounds. :facepalm:
With a bespoke aluminum platform! I was going to say my G weighs the same with 2x the seats and 50% more cylinders but FFS Jag's own current XE 35t's weigh the same with all that and a blower :facepalm:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 13, 2018, 05:57:56 AM
With a bespoke aluminum platform! I was going to say my G weighs the same with 2x the seats and 50% more cylinders but FFS Jag's own current XE 35t's weigh the same with all that and a blower :facepalm:
Don't get me wrong, I love the F-Type, but at 62K with a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds and no manual, you're better off saving up for a V6 manual or just getting something else.
I think Jag is using an aluminum-lead amalgam. No idea how their cars, making extensive use of aluminum, are so heavy. When I learned that their V6 is essentially their V8 with two cylinders not populated (as distinct from chopped off like other V8-based 6s, the block is the same length on the Jag), I understood why the V6 models were about the same weight as the V8s. But the F-Type weighs as much as my mostly-steel Mustang while being something like a foot and a half shorter. Can't figure that out.
The basic structure is engineered to handle a supercharged V8, being topless, plus be somewhat luxurious... Not surprising it's heavy
Quote from: r0tor on February 13, 2018, 08:19:04 AM
The basic structure is engineered to handle a supercharged V8, being topless, plus be somewhat luxurious... Not surprising it's heavy
And the Mustang's structure isn't designed to have a high-powered V8 or be a convertible?
For half the price, with a back seat :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on February 13, 2018, 08:21:12 AM
And the Mustang's structure isn't designed to have a high-powered V8 or be a convertible?
...Plus AWD...
How much reinforcement is put into the chassis between a base model and a Shelby?
The Jag is compromised and expensive, but god is it gorgeous and looks great. What more do you really need?
A 2 seat car that doesn't weigh as much as a crossover with the same engines
F-Type's best modes of consumption are the eyes and ears. Depreciation is blood curdling and even the most diplomatic reviews of it are mixed at best.
Quote from: r0tor on February 13, 2018, 09:06:43 AM
...Plus AWD...
How much reinforcement is put into the chassis between a base model and a Shelby?
IIRC, the Shelby (not the R) is within 100 lbs of the GTPP.
If you told me the V8AWD one weighs as much as a Mustang GT, OK. But the RWD weighs more than a Mustang GT. The 4-banger weighs about the same the Mustang GT. Given that it's about a foot shorter and mostly aluminum, I would expect it to weigh at least 10% less than Mustang with an equivalent engine (4-banger vs 4-banger or V8 vs V8).
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 13, 2018, 10:31:19 AM
A 2 seat car that doesn't weigh as much as a crossover with the same engines
F-Type's best modes of consumption are the eyes and ears. Depreciation is blood curdling and even the most diplomatic reviews of it are mixed at best.
But its oh so important for the type of car it is.
Besides, resale value doesn't seem too bad on those cars. I was actually looking at 6spd examples out of curiosity and those aren't anything less than 50K.
Quote from: MX793 on February 13, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
IIRC, the Shelby (not the R) is within 100 lbs of the GTPP.
If you told me the V8AWD one weighs as much as a Mustang GT, OK. But the RWD weighs more than a Mustang GT. The 4-banger weighs about the same the Mustang GT. Given that it's about a foot shorter and mostly aluminum, I would expect it to weigh at least 10% less than Mustang with an equivalent engine (4-banger vs 4-banger or V8 vs V8).
so what's the luxury weight penalty?
I have to believe it's like bicycles.
High-end or wal-mart bike, they have 2 wheels and mostly the same components. Even made of the same basic frame materials, the $100 bike weighs so much more than the nice bike because it's easier to build strong and heavy than strong and light.
Usually though the more expensive bike means lighter too so :huh:
looks like a bulbous cancerous pos. Not a fan of that design.
Quote from: Char on March 21, 2018, 02:19:23 PM
looks like a bulbous cancerous pos. Not a fan of that design.
:whatshesaid:
Serial Number 0004 delivery to Street Speed 717. First and only Manual ZR1 in the country....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i6DCgpp_MQ
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 29, 2018, 04:06:14 PM
Serial Number 0004 delivery to Street Speed 717. First and only Manual ZR1 in the country....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i6DCgpp_MQ
Jesus. That guy is fucking terrible.
Quote from: Submariner on March 30, 2018, 10:49:13 AM
Jesus. That guy is fucking terrible.
Yeah! He'll ruin it like both his over modded C7 Z06s and his McClaren he drives in the damn snow instead of his Duramax!
Young money. He'll be nothing but a memory in 3 years.
I would drive a McLaren in the snow too. An F40 and F50 even
Quote from: Submariner on March 30, 2018, 10:49:13 AM
Jesus. That guy is fucking terrible.
In the same category as Shmee (or as he pronounces it, Shthmee).... cars through the lens of a 14 year old
Car dyno'd at 668. Only 200 miles on it!
Quote from: 68_427 on March 30, 2018, 05:53:13 PM
I would drive a McLaren in the snow too. An F40 and F50 even
I hope you're kidding about those last two......
In some snow, sure...anything over a couple inches (aka, real snow), you're an idiot.
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 30, 2018, 10:05:09 PM
In some snow, sure...anything over a couple inches (aka, real snow), you're an idiot.
DUDE! His car was covered in SALT! And to top it off he took his effing Quad to the wash a sprayed it off but left the McChicken (as he calls it) filthy! SMH! Crazy if you ask me! :nutty: :huh:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 30, 2018, 08:19:34 PM
Car dyno'd at 668. Only 200 miles on it!
I hope you're kidding about those last two......
No I'm not. If they're my car's I can do what I want with them.
There's a guy here in Rochester that has been daily driving his 06 Z06 year round since new. Over it's life it's had snow tires, tire chains, and he even tows his snowmobiles, jet skis, and ski boat with it.
Quote from: 68_427 on March 31, 2018, 08:24:18 AM
No I'm not. If they're my car's I can do what I want with them.
There's a guy here in Rochester that has been daily driving his 06 Z06 year round since new. Over it's life it's had snow tires, tire chains, and he even tows his snowmobiles, jet skis, and ski boat with it.
So you're comparing a 2006 Z06 (25K) to two Ferrari that are worth over a million bucks apiece? First of all if you can afford either of those cars you can afford PLENTY of cars and trucks to drive in the winter! And I'm pretty sure you'd have more fun (and be safer) in a proper winter vehicle than in a damn F40 in the snow......... :nutty: :huh:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 30, 2018, 11:30:57 PM
DUDE! His car was covered in SALT! And to top it off he took his effing Quad to the wash a sprayed it off but left the McChicken (as he calls it) filthy! SMH! Crazy if you ask me! :nutty: :huh:
It's not like carbon fiber will rust...
Quote from: 68_427 on March 30, 2018, 05:53:13 PM
I would drive a McLaren in the snow too. An F40 and F50 even
Eh I probably would not do the F40/F50 in the snow. Not because they're just expensive, they're pieces of automotive history at this point.
Quote from: MX793 on April 02, 2018, 07:07:34 AM
It's not like carbon fiber will rust...
The underpinnings with look like shit tho......
I understand both sides of this.
If you have a car, drive it.
But...a McClaren isn't meant to be in snow...so why not choose the better tool for the job.
To troll the h8rs
Personally, that's a bridge too far for me. I revere those cars and value my time and safety too much to endanger myself and my car to anger strangers. I can do that from the safety of my keyboard
It's not to troll anyone. If I enjoy it I don't care what other people think.
Quote from: giant_mtb on April 02, 2018, 04:51:49 PM
I understand both sides of this.
If you have a car, drive it.
But...a McClaren isn't meant to be in snow...so why not choose the better tool for the job.
BINGO!
Good review of the new ZR1 by Matt Farrah of One Take fame: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a19903865/2019-corvette-zr1-review-first-drive-photos-info/
In short, some how, some way, despite 100+ more hp than the Z06, it is a vastly superior performance car, including being able to put all that power, in a car smaller than a Civic, to the street.
Oh, and it runs 10.1 @ 134 and destroyed the Ford GT's time at VIR...
Wow wow wow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0oZlLKi1R0
It sounds like this thing is shaping up to be the car the Z06 was always promised to be but never was. And just like the last ZR1, its incredibly ugly and tacky.
Wowow do want. I fucking love this thing
Quote from: GoCougs on April 23, 2018, 09:41:20 PM
Good review of the new ZR1 by Matt Farrah of One Take fame: https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a19903865/2019-corvette-zr1-review-first-drive-photos-info/
In short, some how, some way, despite 100+ more hp than the Z06, it is a vastly superior performance car, including being able to put all that power, in a car smaller than a Civic, to the street.
Oh, and it runs 10.1 @ 134 and destroyed the Ford GT's time at VIR...
Special car indeed! I can't wait to see what the C8 does!
I was going to try to play the hipster "who cares" card but after watching that video... man, this is the real deal.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 24, 2018, 01:15:15 PM
I was going to try to play the hipster "who cares" card but after watching that video... man, this is the real deal.
It absolutely devoured the track... drool..
Quote from: Laconian on April 24, 2018, 03:48:51 PM
It absolutely devoured the track... drool..
And it's doing it with dino tech.
That thing's about as dino as a GT-R.... DI, VVT, active diff, magna ride, probably the best TC system in the industry... this ain't yer grandpa's Corvette
Pooprods, non-active aero, leaf springs.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2019-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-instrumented-test-review
135mph trap speed.
The top end difference is striking compared to the z06.
ZR1 0-160 16.1 sec
Z06 0-160 22.9 sec
This is even with the ZR1 in the ZTK high downforce package.
Also more straight line speed than the Ford GT
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/ford-gt-full-test-of-the-blue-oval-supercar-review
134mph trap speed.
Ford GT 0-160 17.5 sec
The McLaren 720S, however is still bonkers in comparison
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mclaren-720s-instrumented-test-review
trap speed 145
0-160 12.7 sec (WTF?!!?!)
720S is truly a nutty car. It's like a P1 for a fraction of the price.
Its fucking nuts that 0-160 is the new metric. They must have new testing venues.
Quote from: 565 on May 25, 2018, 06:18:43 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2019-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-instrumented-test-review
135mph trap speed.
The top end difference is striking compared to the z06.
ZR1 0-160 16.1 sec
Z06 0-160 22.9 sec
This is even with the ZR1 in the ZTK high downforce package.
Also more straight line speed than the Ford GT
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/ford-gt-full-test-of-the-blue-oval-supercar-review
134mph trap speed.
Ford GT 0-160 17.5 sec
The McLaren 720S, however is still bonkers in comparison
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mclaren-720s-instrumented-test-review
trap speed 145
0-160 12.7 sec (WTF?!!?!)
I've driven cars made in recent memory that take as long to get to 60.
I like how they spent so much time talking about how shitty the road is in that McLaren review. Looks perfect compared to some of the shit we have here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNoMcL5Zsw8
Oops.
It was a GM VP driving, both airbags deployed...!
https://jalopnik-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/jalopnik.com/gm-exec-is-the-first-person-to-publicly-crash-a-2018-1826521390/amp?amp_js_v=0.1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on June 03, 2018, 09:49:06 PM
It was a GM VP driving, both airbags deployed...!
https://jalopnik-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/jalopnik.com/gm-exec-is-the-first-person-to-publicly-crash-a-2018-1826521390/amp?amp_js_v=0.1#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s
Yup!
Ha, I'd shrivel up and die of embarassment.
That's a great product endorsement right there
Look how well the safety system worked, though!
Quote from: Laconian on June 03, 2018, 11:49:12 PM
Ha, I'd shrivel up and die of embarassment.
Total knewb mistake - 0.0001% of people can effectively drive this caliber car with the safety nannies off. And he totally looks like a GM VP ;).
Cars like this are the fighter jets of the automotive world (I think?)
They are inherently unstable. Turning off the nannies is like taking a bolt or two out of the suspension linkages. Only a matter of time before the hurt comes.
Man the zr1 had a good showing in LL 2018. Ford guys pepper thy angus'
Quote from: 68_427 on June 10, 2018, 03:05:20 PM
Man the zr1 had a good showing in LL 2018. Ford guys pepper thy angus'
Was that leaked somewhere? I know the ZR1 unofficially lapped faster than the GT, but haven't see anything.
Quote from: Xer0 on June 10, 2018, 03:21:27 PM
Was that leaked somewhere? I know the ZR1 unofficially lapped faster than the GT, but haven't see anything.
I play GT with a kid that works for C&D. Stacked car lineup this year
Quote from: 68_427 on June 10, 2018, 03:49:04 PM
I play GT with a kid that works for C&D. Stacked car lineup this year
Nice.
So ZR1, the Huracane, Civic Type R, the Ford, new GT3 (hopefully they run both PDK and 6spd), V8 Vantage? Not sure what else came out this year.
Quote from: Xer0 on June 10, 2018, 07:51:23 PM
Nice.
So ZR1, the Huracane, Civic Type R, the Ford, new GT3 (hopefully they run both PDK and 6spd), V8 Vantage? Not sure what else came out this year.
720S and GT2 RS as well. Big surprise car for next year which should be interesting.
Oh, I think there are lots of add'l good candidates - both new and significantly refreshed: Golf R, TT-RS, RS3, RS5, Mustang GT, M5, E63S, Challenger Hellcat Widebody, Civic Type R.
The widebody was there for sure
So the ZR1 loses to the GT2 RS by 1 point in the August Issue of C&D. But C&D reduced the points given for AS TESTED PRICE from 20 to 10 to give this test to the fancy Beetle. As tested the Porsche cost $204,920 MORE than the ZR1!
Da fuh
I have always hated the mags scoring. Is C&D the rag with the "Gotta Have It" factor? Average auto journalist takes pride in NOT owning cars and just living off the manufacturers' collective teat
Little surprise - the ZR1 was beatin' 'em 10 years ago... (https://www.motortrend.com/cars/nissan/gt-r/2009/2009-corvette-zr1-vs-porsche-gt2-vs-ferrari-599-vs-nissan-gtr/)
Quote from: GoCougs on July 14, 2018, 09:43:58 AM
Little surprise - the ZR1 was beatin' 'em 10 years ago...
(https://www.motortrend.com/cars/nissan/gt-r/2009/2009-corvette-zr1-vs-porsche-gt2-vs-ferrari-599-vs-nissan-gtr/)
Still gets no love!!!
I can't imagine that anyone with 599 GTB money is picking a ZR1 over one, unless they just love America that much :neverforget:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2018, 01:19:06 PM
I can't imagine that anyone with 599 GTB money is picking a ZR1 over one, unless they just love America that much :neverforget:
Depends if they're actually a car person or a poseur.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2018, 01:19:06 PM
I can't imagine that anyone with 599 GTB money is picking a ZR1 over one, unless they just love America that much :neverforget:
I would do it if I had an obnoxious friend with a 599.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 14, 2018, 02:30:50 PM
Depends if they're actually a car person or a poseur.
A car person can't appreciate a 599????
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 14, 2018, 03:08:57 PM
A car person can't appreciate a 599????
Sure, but most Ferrari buyers are just buying the badge.
So are most Corvette buyers :lol:
I see a lot more Corvettes at track days & autox events than Ferraris. :huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 14, 2018, 05:43:56 PM
I see a lot more Corvettes at track days & autox events than Ferraris. :huh:
Corvettes can be run and maintained for track days without flying in factory mechanics and 4,000 dollar brake jobs.
Ferraris are 100% about the badge. Take any era Ferrari and the equivalent Corvette, and the Corvette is the vastly superior vehicle to own (i.e., repair and modify). It's not even a discussion.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on July 14, 2018, 05:43:56 PM
I see a lot more Corvettes at track days & autox events than Ferraris. :huh:
There are a lot more Corvettes than Ferraris
Quote from: GoCougs on July 14, 2018, 06:34:47 PM
Ferraris are 100% about the badge. Take any era Ferrari and the equivalent Corvette, and the Corvette is the vastly superior vehicle to own (i.e., repair and modify). It's not even a discussion.
And a Civic Si is a vastly superior vehicle to own than either....................................................
The vast majority of Corvette owners have about 3% of the talent to utilize its capabilities.................................
This argument's logical conclusion reduces to nonsense.