Poll
Question:
Which of these ~$120K, 12x MPH trappin' cars would you actually buy?
Option 1: 991 C2S (3.2 0-60, 11.5@121)
votes: 9
Option 2: Z06 (3-3.2 0-60, 11-11.2 @127)
votes: 4
Option 3: E63 S AMG (3.4 0-60, 11.7 @ 122)
votes: 1
Option 4: GT-R (3 0-60, 11.2@125)
votes: 0
Option 5: Tesla P100D (2.something 0-60, 10.6@125)
votes: 1
ZR1 thread got me thinking.... for straight line speed at least, "supercar" performance has been fully democratized. (Actually, supercar performance is a step further- cars like the 488 GTB and Huracan trap in the mid 130s). So knowing now that for all intents and purposes these cars are about as fast as each other, which would you refinance your house to buy?
Z06 because it probably has the lowest cost of living. Besides maybe the GT-R or Tesla. But I wouldn't want the Tesla because it runs on Energizer bunnies. GT-R would be sweet, but this is 'Murrica.
Z06 because it's damn sexy.
911, easy. I'd do a GS over the Z06 personally so it doesn't really appeal to me. Hell, I'd probably do a Boxster GTS over all of them, but its not an option :cry:
Why is the Tesla even on here? It can only do that number basically only once.
I'll just settle for an M3 and a bunch of extra money
Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:08:20 PM
I'll just settle for an M3 and a bunch of extra money
Not an option dude.
Otherwise I'd be like "a C5 Z06, an NA Miata, an FJ62 Land Cruiser with trailer, and a Dixie Chopper lawn mower."
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2017, 03:33:48 PM
Not an option dude.
Otherwise I'd be like "a C5 Z06, an NA Miata, an FJ62 Land Cruiser with trailer, and a Dixie Chopper lawn mower."
It traps at 12Xmph
Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:52:51 PM
It traps at 12Xmph
Your kid will think less of you if you buy a used car :lol:
No but seriously the rules are the rules.
You guys know my choice. 911 all dayay, the rich man's GTI.
My kid would love me getting an M3... He wears the M School shirt I bought him all the damn time
911. Most well-rounded of the bunch.
Quote from: r0tor on November 09, 2017, 03:52:51 PM
It traps at 12Xmph
Doing the math, I have about 40 grand left over from that collection. I could get the lawnmower to trap at 120 for that.
I mean a $10K motorcycle will trap 120s with the shittiest rider ever on board. Maybe for my next thread I will do "Cheapest street legal cars to trap in the 120s"
Z-Oh-Six........
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 09, 2017, 04:33:00 PM
Doing the math, I have about 40 grand left over from that collection. I could get the lawnmower to trap at 120 for that.
Fine... the New M3 CS and I will pay a dealer rape charge and option it out with european delivery and M School
There's something about a car that starts at 30K being kitted out to six figures that just rubs me the wrong way...
While I agree, is it any better then a $90k car kitted out to sell for $294k?
Yes because a 90K car can be a good base to expand on. To get a car to 30K you have to cut corners
Don't know... The M3 has a completely different power train, suspension, brakes, suspension mounting points, body work, electronics, ect...
In most companies, it has enough changes to be a completely different product line.
Probably the 911 followed by ZO6 but I would take a loaded CRV + $90k over any of them.
I'd probably go 991 but I do love the Z06.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 09, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
Yes because a 90K car can be a good base to expand on. To get a car to 30K you have to cut corners
You're making some rather bold assumptions there.
Mercedes because it's the only one that's good for long distance travel with family and luggage and you can have fun on highway onramps and offramps. I would have picked the GT-R but recently in last several years reviews have indicated it's ride sucks; too racetrack. I don't know. I'd probably rather have a Porsche Cayman than any other Porsche right now, outside of exotics. The Panamera wasn't on your list. It's still not very good looking. Can you do more than a few racetrack runs with a Z06 before you have to let it cool off?
Just for me to drive, I'd take the Tesla.
Quote from: MX793 on November 10, 2017, 05:58:28 AM
You're making some rather bold assumptions there.
Somebody has to
And I don't think it's that bold... a car with a $90K base price has a lot more latitude for things like interior materials and suspension design than a $30K car.
Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:50:11 AM
Somebody has to
And I don't think it's that bold... a car with a $90K base price has a lot more latitude for things like interior materials and suspension design than a $30K car.
One glaring hole in that argument is that the retail price actually represents the true cost of the product. I'd point out that Porsche averages 5-figure profits per vehicle sold. $17K per vehicle with an average selling price of $90K. BMW averages about $5K per vehicle sold, and on a base 3er, it's probably around 2500-3K. There's a lot of badge tax associated with Porsche (several times what BMW charges).
Secondly, ignoring brand-name markups, the cost of a vehicle is more than the cost of labor or materials that go into making it. You have the myriad non-recurring expenses, such as tooling and development costs. And corporate overhead (somebody's gotta pay the CEO's multi-million-dollar salary). Here, volume comes into play, as the more you make/sell, the more those expenses are diluted. BMW sells over twice as many 3/4 series globally as Porsche sells cars annually. BMW moves over 500K 3/4 series models per year. Porsche moves about 30K 911s. BMW likely spent more money and effort in development and design of the 3er than Porsche did the 911, but since the cost is so much more diluted by the far higher volume, it doesn't show up in the sale price.
Suppose that both BMW and Porsche spent 750 million in developing their respective models. Both set their pricing such that they recoup the development cost in 2 years. BMW banks on 500K/year 3er sales and would need to add $750 to the price of each car to cover development costs. Porsche, moving 30K units per year, would need to add $12,500 to the price of each 911 above and beyond recurring costs (material and labor) to cover development costs.
I mean, even with your numbers in mind, a $30K BMW costs $26K or so to make, a $90K Porsche costs $75K. I doubt the manhours per car is much different, and even if it is that's baked into the cost. Most importantly the end result reflects my point. Aside from piddly shit like parking sensors a $90K 911 is a nicer car than a $90K M4. Dynamically, build quality wise, w/e... and that's a general trend across the board.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
I mean, even with your numbers in mind, a $30K BMW costs $26K or so to make, a $90K Porsche costs $75K. I doubt the manhours per car is much different, and even if it is that's baked into the cost. Most importantly the end result reflects my point. Aside from piddly shit like parking sensors a $90K 911 is a nicer car than a $90K M4. Dynamically, build quality wise, w/e... and that's a general trend across the board.
Profit is just a small piece of the picture. You'd have to extract the NRE component in the price as well, which is impossible unless you're privy to the financial details of both companies. But if we assume that the development costs of the 911 and 3er are the same, based on differences in volume, it would be at least a full order of magnitude higher in the Porsche's pricing. If we were talking about 2 cars that sold in comparable numbers, the argument that the more expensive one is a comensurately "better" car is much more valid. A 911 or Boxster/Cayman vs a Miata, for example. But given the differences in volume between the 3 series and the 911, that the Porsche is ~3x the price is a shaky argument that the Porsche has 3x the amount of engineering or 3x the complexity or 3x quality of materials, or some combination thereof, behind it.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:52:07 AM
Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special
I love the 8. It's extremely 1 dimensional in many ways though. While it's seating gives it some flexibility, it's ultra hyper personality doesn't.
What I love the most about the M3 is it's flexibility. It can be a weapon on the track. It can be a great cruiser just as easily. No problem going to get groceries and blowing by people on the way or fitting the family. Love the somewhat simplistic interior and aggressive exterior.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2017, 11:52:07 AM
Also r0tor I'm a little surprised at your M3 fanboyism; seems to be the polar opposite of the RX-8 in many ways. For all its flaws the RX-8 was very special
So the M3 with all of its merits is very mundane?
Quote from: Soup DeVille on November 10, 2017, 07:52:58 PM
So the M3 with all of its merits is very mundane?
No, it's a good car, just seems to run counter to a lot of what r0tor likes about the 8. It's (comparatively) heavy, lumpy power delivery, less than great exhaust note, unsorted suspension, quasi cynical corporate money grab and dilution of the ///M badge
I'm guessing you haven't actually driven a new M3 comp package... It's non of those things
To Sporty's original options I'd probably spend my money on the 991. I also like the Tesla but here it is about 50K mor expensive than a 991S. The E63S is a great option too.
And about that M3. The Comp Pack is excellent, what an M3 should be. It's the best M car available today IMO. A friend has one and I have driven it on and off track quite a bit.
Quote from: r0tor on November 10, 2017, 09:38:00 PM
I'm guessing you haven't actually driven a new M3 comp package... It's non of those things
I'm thinking if you drove one we'd have heard about it. In any case the comp package is not the only M3
Quote from: r0tor on November 10, 2017, 04:03:56 PM
I love the 8. It's extremely 1 dimensional in many ways though. While it's seating gives it some flexibility, it's ultra hyper personality doesn't.
What I love the most about the M3 is it's flexibility. It can be a weapon on the track. It can be a great cruiser just as easily. No problem going to get groceries and blowing by people on the way or fitting the family. Love the somewhat simplistic interior and aggressive exterior.
Jesus, buy an m3 already.
Quote from: Laconian on November 11, 2017, 11:45:45 AM
Sell him yours
For someone so obsessed with M3s he doesn't seem very interested in actually buying one. Highly suspicious.
911, manual. Z06 second choice. GT-R in third. Followed by the E, then the Tesla in a distant last, right below the Honda CRV.
I think my last pick would be the GT-R. On the street, all the other cars are as fast, and either much nicer or much more fun to drive. It should be like 1/2 its price.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 11, 2017, 11:20:26 AM
I'm thinking if you drove one we'd have heard about it. In any case the comp package is not the only M3
Ummm... I did M School and a BMW Track Day this year... They just might use M cars there
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 11, 2017, 02:07:39 PM
I think my last pick would be the GT-R. On the street, all the other cars are as fast, and either much nicer or much more fun to drive. It should be like 1/2 its price.
No.
ZL1 at 11.5 sec @ 125 mph above all of them w/out thinking twice.