Only a rumor for now but it makes sense. I must say I did not see this coming.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/03/death-comes-lincoln-continental/
Forget the stickshift RWD 6+ cylinder sedan.... any sedan that isn't a mainstream compact or a Camcord is on thin ice.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/John_Wilkes_Booth-portrait.jpg/1396px-John_Wilkes_Booth-portrait.jpg)
People are a lot less boring than they lead on.
It sounds like Ford is just gonna stop making sedans altogether. That sounds like a clever way to meet CAFE standards.
Ford is smart to not make what people aren't buying. Can't call it the old developmental catch 22 either (i.e. company stops putting money into a car, people stop buying it, company says "aw shucks well we have to cancel it- no interest")- several brand new mainstreamers (Sonata, Optima, 200) have flat out bombed. People trade their old sedans in and leave the dealership in a crossover or pickup truck.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 15, 2018, 08:13:54 AM
Ford is smart to not make what people aren't buying. Can't call it the old developmental catch 22 either (i.e. company stops putting money into a car, people stop buying it, company says "aw shucks well we have to cancel it- no interest")- several brand new mainstreamers (Sonata, Optima, 200) have flat out bombed. People trade their old sedans in and leave the dealership in a crossover or pickup truck.
Although Fusion sales have been dropping, it still sells more than 200K units every year. I'm not convinced that 200K buyers will be happy in an Escape.
But it looks like Ford will stop making anything vaguely car shaped now; Fusion, Fiesta, Focus....
I bet Ford feels a bit silly right now for selling Land Rover...
Quote from: 2o6 on March 15, 2018, 08:21:39 AM
Although Fusion sales have been dropping, it still sells more than 200K units every year. I'm not convinced that 200K buyers will be happy in an Escape.
But it looks like Ford will stop making anything vaguely car shaped now; Fusion, Fiesta, Focus....
It sold over 200K last year... and over 250K the year before that... and over 300K the year before that....
Through February it's down ~15% vs last year and
40% vs the year before.... the trend line is headed towards zero. Canceling it completely is probably not the move but Ford would be stupid to invest in it. And maybe all Fusion drivers wouldn't be happy in an Escape... but I bet some would be happy in an Edge, or an F-150, or a Focus. They sold 200K Fusions last year after losing 100K sales in 2 years... it's curtains for the Fusion.
I am just shocked the Continental is also doing bad. It's new and not bad.
It's weird. Cars are going out of style and a stripper full size pickup costs $28K.
What's the world coming to?
Quote from: shp4man on March 15, 2018, 08:52:03 AM
It's weird. Cars are going out of style and a stripper full size pickup costs $28K.
What's the world coming to?
This is my big concern. SUV shaped things are generally more expensive than car shaped ones. I can't picture people my age shelling out $325 a month on a base Escape. AND paying on student loans.
Quote from: Submariner on March 15, 2018, 08:29:10 AM
I bet Ford feels a bit silly right now for selling Land Rover...
Absolutely not. Well they probably think so but Landover is happy AF. Ford would have mismanaged them into oblivion.
Everything ford was touching was turning to shit then
Truecar puts average transaction for a Lincoln Continental at @$50 thousand. I did for comparison what is the average transaction for an MB E class which is @$52 thousand.
They're not really competitors or even in the same size class but which would you rather have?
Dang shame because it's really a nice looking big luxury cruiser.
Quote from: Rich on March 15, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
Absolutely not. Well they probably think so but Landover is happy AF. Ford would have mismanaged them into oblivion.
Everything ford was touching was turning to shit then
Under Ford's stewardship, LR introduced the Range Rover Sport and the LR3...pretty good additions to the lineup...
Read American Icon. You'll get a feel for how bad it was. And probably how bad it is now that Mullay is gone.
Quote from: veeman on March 15, 2018, 09:40:26 AM
Truecar puts average transaction for a Lincoln Continental at @$50 thousand. I did for comparison what is the average transaction for an MB E class which is @$52 thousand.
They're not really competitors or even in the same size class but which would you rather have?
Dang shame because it's really a nice looking big luxury cruiser.
You are right that they are not competitors. For the same money the Continental is more roomy, powerful, refined and better equipped. That it fails while the Benz is the benchmark speaks to the irrationality of the luxury market. The Lincoln is the better car, drive wheels be damned. The best selling luxury midsizer is the Lexus ES.
With modern, modular platforms, aren't cars like the Focus/Escape, Fusion/Edge, and Taurus/Explorer developed at the same time? I get being concerned about lower sales, but how many extra dollars are saved by ignoring the car side of the thing entirely?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 15, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
irrationality of the luxury market
Glad someone else sees it. It's all about the badge & 'prestige'...
Luxury cars aren't just about gadgets and the brand. Some cars are built better, drive better, ride better, have a nicer cabin than others, etc.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 15, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
You are right that they are not competitors. For the same money the Continental is more roomy, powerful, refined and better equipped. That it fails while the Benz is the benchmark speaks to the irrationality of the luxury market. The Lincoln is the better car, drive wheels be damned. The best selling luxury midsizer is the Lexus ES.
Says the guy who owns a Lincoln and Infiniti. :nutty:
Quote from: giant_mtb on March 15, 2018, 01:48:16 PM
Says the guy who owns a Lincoln and Infiniti. :nutty:
There was definitely an irrational + emotional aspect in those purchases (as is the case with most car purchases)
Me calling the luxury market irrational wasn't a dig; humans are irrational; it only makes sense that people with means have more freedom to do irrational things :huh:
Quote from: Submariner on March 15, 2018, 01:36:48 PM
Luxury cars aren't just about gadgets and the brand. Some cars are built better, drive better, ride better, have a nicer cabin than others, etc.
Do you really think the average Benz buyer is cross shopping with Lincolns (or anything for that matter)? I would argue that most luxury car sales are definitely driven by brand first and everything else later. Someone who trades their E class in every 3 years for a new one cannot know whether or not it rides/drives/is built/outfitted better than its competitors.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/fords-future-lineup-laid-bare-heres-what-we-know-including-bronco-gt500-and-more/
Applies to this discussion. Piggy backing along the same lines as what I was thinking earlier, there is this:
"The brand also plans to reduce its offerings to variants of just five vehicle architectures worldwide: a front-drive unibody, a rear-drive unibody, a van unibody, body-on-frame for trucks, and an electric platform. Apparently, only 30 percent of each model based off one of those platforms will be customizable—with variations limited to styling elements such as headlights and hoods. The number of vehicle combinations and trims that can be ordered will also be reduced, lowering costs and reducing build complexity."
Sounds like MQB and MLB. Probably the right move but the industry homogenization continues. Damn, limited headlight modules.... What will happen with the other Lincolns?
Quote from: shp4man on March 15, 2018, 08:52:03 AM
It's weird. Cars are going out of style and a stripper full size pickup costs $28K.
What's the world coming to?
:hesaid: :nutty:
I don't get the CUV love. I see too many flipped over on the freeway to like them. I'll take my low center of gravity sedan, please.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 16, 2018, 03:03:37 PM
I don't get the CUV love. I see too many flipped over on the freeway to like them. I'll take my low center of gravity sedan, please.
Lol what?
Last vehicle I saw flipped over was a pickup truck, but that is just statistics. They make up like 50% of the passenger vehicles here.
I love my low sedan, but for family duty something like a Cayenne or X5M sounds really nice. I'm not ashamed to admit there's definitely more status in something like that vs a minivan or even an E Class wagon.... so if I can't have the buttoned down razor sharp dynamics I desire I might as well have something that makes me feel cool. For now that's an expensive crossover
*awaits Raza & MCM hate*
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 16, 2018, 03:03:37 PM
I don't get the CUV love. I see too many flipped over on the freeway to like them. I'll take my low center of gravity sedan, please.
Lol wut?
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/billingsgazette.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/25/e25723ee-8c5e-5ac4-acdd-19bd63107f5c/592c3649163b1.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C696)
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/f13b3fc8ebdc99addb595e38c60e87d0?width=1024)
I'm not saying CUVs and SUVs don't roll over. I'm saying you're lying to yourself if you think you're safe in a sedan. While the rate goes to the SUV, the total numbers of rollovers goes to sedans and sports cars.
(http://www.vettetube.com/gallery/data/512/medium/c5-corvette-rollover.jpg)
(http://www.corvetteblogger.com/images/content/2018/021318_2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5l3qWRl.jpg)
Yeah, if you suck at driving on country roads and go into a ditch. But I don't think I've ever seen a sedan rolled over on the freeway, whereas I've seen 4 SUV/CUVs rolled in the past month or so.
Lincoln is still in business?
Quote from: Raza on March 18, 2018, 09:48:21 AM
Lincoln is still in business?
They've made some decent improvement. The Navigator is a legitimate luxury player, and dealers can't keep $100k Black Label trims on the lot
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 18, 2018, 12:55:28 AM
Yeah, if you suck at driving on country roads and go into a ditch. But I don't think I've ever seen a sedan rolled over on the freeway, whereas I've seen 4 SUV/CUVs rolled in the past month or so.
I watched a dude roll his Accord on the freeway, getting a bit sideways to avoid someone doing something stupid. All it takes is catching the edge of the pavement/pothole or jersey barrier to flip a car truck or SUV. The point is, in actual numbers, cars outnumber CUV rollovers by over double. And in either case, the numbers are simple: .0001% of vehicles roll over. It's pretty easy to be in the 99.9999% that don't roll regardless of kind of vehicle you're in. Avoiding a vehicle because you think your chances are high that you'll flip over means you suck at driving and math.
Quote from: 68_427 on March 18, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
They've made some decent improvement. The Navigator is a legitimate luxury player, and dealers can't keep $100k Black Label trims on the lot
They need a SWB 2 row Navigator
Quote from: ChrisV on March 18, 2018, 02:09:19 PM
I watched a dude roll his Accord on the freeway, getting a bit sideways to avoid someone doing something stupid. All it takes is catching the edge of the pavement/pothole or jersey barrier to flip a car truck or SUV. The point is, in actual numbers, cars outnumber CUV rollovers by over double. And in either case, the numbers are simple: .0001% of vehicles roll over. It's pretty easy to be in the 99.9999% that don't roll regardless of kind of vehicle you're in. Avoiding a vehicle because you think your chances are high that you'll flip over means you suck at driving and math.
Okay.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 18, 2018, 05:22:23 PM
They need a SWB 2 row Navigator
You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?
Quote from: MX793 on March 18, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?
No!That was really a fancy Explorer. More like the First two generations of the Gator (And the SWB Escalade) before it got stretched.......
And a Navigator is just really a fancy Expedition... ;)
I read somewhere that a new Aviator is in the pipeline.
I wonder if any aviators will buy one :huh:
Quote from: MX793 on March 18, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
You mean like the Aviator (which was an utter flop)?
The Navigator wasn't doing too well at that time either. Lincoln in general was in a bad place. Now there's clear interest in the Navigator again, but not everyone wants an 18 foot long SUV.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 18, 2018, 08:37:24 PM
No!That was really a fancy Explorer. More like the First two generations of the Gator (And the SWB Escalade) before it got stretched.......
Exactly. Though looking at the specs, this Navigator is only 4" longer than the old one. But I don't know that I believe it. IT looks a lot bigger. I'm wondering if some of these dimensions are wrong. A few days ago I parked next to a ~2000 Tahoe, and I swear it was the same length as my car, even though specs say it's like a foot longer.
In any case the next Exploder is gonna be RWD based and will have a Lincoln version. It sounds like they are keeping the MKX as well. Lot of Lincoln trucks. Long overdue
The hood height and beltline have gone up on all trucks. By the numbers, its only a couple of inches, but visually it makes an impact.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2018, 10:12:30 AM
The hood height and beltline have gone up on all trucks. By the numbers, its only a couple of inches, but visually it makes an impact.
I was right next to a new Highlander the other day and the hood was MASSIVE. I think the top of the hood was at my eyeline in my Mazda6.
I think the SUV flipping tendency has largely been mitigated by stability control, better engineering, and better tires. They're still more apt to flip over but the flip tendency of early Explorers with worn Firestone tires and early Cherokees is much improved.
A head on car collision on a two lane road between a heavy SUV and light compact, the occupants in the SUV will likely fare better just based on vehicle mass.
Kid driving too fast on a windy wet road and doesn't know they should aim straight for the deer rather than swerve to avoid it, they're better off in a sedan rather than in a Jeep.
As a teenager and in my early 20s, I had a couple real close calls. In a Taurus I slid down a football field's length down an embankment from a highway onramp and came to a stop after hitting a tree. In a Dodge Daytona on a busy four lane road during morning rush hour I did a 180 and ended up in the opposite lane. In both cases I had either mismatched or badly worn tires (or both) and no stability control.
I try to change my tires now before they look like they need to be changed. I can feel the difference in the wet.
People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity. Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?). And many SUV's today aren't really SUV's...they're closer to raised wagons that have lower centers of gravity than say, a 92' Blazer.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 19, 2018, 03:21:07 AM
The Navigator wasn't doing too well at that time either. Lincoln in general was in a bad place. Now there's clear interest in the Navigator again, but not everyone wants an 18 foot long SUV.
Exactly. Though looking at the specs, this Navigator is only 4" longer than the old one. But I don't know that I believe it. IT looks a lot bigger. I'm wondering if some of these dimensions are wrong. A few days ago I parked next to a ~2000 Tahoe, and I swear it was the same length as my car, even though specs say it's like a foot longer.
In any case the next Exploder is gonna be RWD based and will have a Lincoln version. It sounds like they are keeping the MKX as well. Lot of Lincoln trucks. Long overdue
The new Navigator is huge. It looks just as big as the old Excursion. I'm not sure if there are optical illusions at play, but it's a monster of a vehicle. Much more imposing than say, the Escalade.
Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:37:42 PM
People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity. Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?).
Chevy K5 Blazer, Chevy S-10 Blazer, GMC K5 Jimmy, GMC S-15 Jimmy, Chevy/GMC Suburban, Dodge Ramcharger, Dodge Raider, Plymouth Trailduster, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, Jeep (Grand) Wagoneer, Jeep Cherokee, Jeep CJ, Jeep Wrangler, Isuzu Trooper, Isuzu Rodeo, Suzuki Samurai, International Scout, International Travelall, and... you know... the Ford Bronco and Bronco II...
LOL My dad bought a Cherokee a few years back- it was like 20yrs old but low mileage and still good condition. The sun visor had a HUGE WARNING about the high center of gravity.
Quote from: 93JC on March 19, 2018, 01:39:10 PM
Chevy K5 Blazer, Chevy S-10 Blazer, GMC K5 Jimmy, GMC S-15 Jimmy, Chevy/GMC Suburban, Dodge Ramcharger, Dodge Raider, Plymouth Trailduster, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, Jeep (Grand) Wagoneer, Jeep Cherokee, Jeep CJ, Jeep Wrangler, Isuzu Trooper, Isuzu Rodeo, Suzuki Samurai, International Scout, International Travelall, and... you know... the Ford Bronco and Bronco II...
Oh boy do I stand corrected.
What I should have said was, these vehicles simply weren't as popular for the average consumer as they are today.
Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:38:53 PM
The new Navigator is huge. It looks just as big as the old Excursion. I'm not sure if there are optical illusions at play, but it's a monster of a vehicle. Much more imposing than say, the Escalade.
The OG Navi looked like a blown up wagon by comparison. An odd juxtaposition. In any case, we will see what Ford does.
I think midsize crossovers are an untapped avenue for the second and third tier luxury brands to grab market share. 3 series customers are 3 series customers... as long as BMW keeps subsidizing leases you will need the jaws of life to pry them out of their dealerships. But I think there are a lot of customers who want something luxurious and somewhat utilitarian that isn't a full size pickup. Sounds like opportunity
Quote from: Submariner on March 19, 2018, 12:37:42 PM
People are also more acclimated to driving vehicles with high centers of gravity. Before the Explorer, there was the GMC Jimmy, and a handful of full-size pickup derived offerings from Chevy, Ford and (Dodge?). And many SUV's today aren't really SUV's...they're closer to raised wagons that have lower centers of gravity than say, a 92' Blazer.
They also have suspensions much better sorted to highway use.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on March 19, 2018, 02:54:41 PM
They also have suspensions much better sorted to highway use.
Yeah! Those old trucks would get outta sorts much quicker than these tall wagons!
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 19, 2018, 01:50:53 PM
LOL My dad bought a Cherokee a few years back- it was like 20yrs old but low mileage and still good condition. The sun visor had a HUGE WARNING about the high center of gravity.
Basically all SUVs and trucks had this warning back in the 90s. GM stopped putting them in beginning in the early 2000s. It's nothing out of the ordinary. You can put "CAUTION: HOT" on as many cups as you want, but people are still idiots.
I sold a 2008 Saturn VUE that had that warning on the sun visor
Quote from: 2o6 on March 19, 2018, 07:13:13 PM
I sold a 2008 Saturn VUE that had that warning on the sun visor
I think my Taco has one, but it might just be an airbag warning...can't remember. :lol:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 15, 2018, 10:31:29 AM
You are right that they are not competitors. For the same money the Continental is more roomy, powerful, refined and better equipped. That it fails while the Benz is the benchmark speaks to the irrationality of the luxury market. The Lincoln is the better car, drive wheels be damned. The best selling luxury midsizer is the Lexus ES.
The Continental is bigger, but it's absolutely nothing like a Mercedes to drive, or in the cabin. An E-Class can dazzle, and the Continental is more like "yeah, pretty nice."
My 4Runner has that warning :huh: