Read a piece (sorry, can't link - can't remember where is was :( ) speculating that some manufacturers are considering discontinuing sales of traditional 3-box sedans in the US. Exceptions cited were Toyota & Honda, whose mainstream sedans crush the rest. Possible strategies might be to introduce hatchback/liftbacks, that have some of the utility of SUVs but still with sedan goodness.
But D-Segment-sized hatchbacks are alien to most Americans - so I dunno. But it's plausible that Ford say, could ditch the Fusion in the US & try the liftback Mondeo, or even the estate version.
Thoughts?
The only things I like sedans for is for car rentals, because you can carry your luggage discretely without advertising it to everyone that peers in the window, and for sound insulation. Trunks capture the sound that comes up through the rear wheel wells.
Otherwise, I'm quite happy to see more five-door options on the road. You can do a lot more with less if you're working with a two-box shape, and I appreciate efficiency.
As long as they don't all look like the CrossTour.
Quote from: Laconian on March 28, 2018, 11:43:38 AM
Otherwise, I'm quite happy to see more five-door options on the road. You can do a lot more with less if you're working with a two-box shape, and I appreciate efficiency.
Wagons and hatchbacks, yes. CUVs are stupid.
There are a lot of pieces to this. Just going to spit ball.
- C segment is the new D segment. Something like a Corolla + Civic are as big, fast and refined as a Camcord from ~10-15 years ago, while costing significantly less to own and operate. Functionally, aside from fitting a rear facing infant seat, there's no practical upside to an Accord over a Civic for the first 2 standard distributions (F2SDs) of the market.
- Obviously, crossovers. Again, coming back to the prior point.. the mainstream sedan market has gravitated towards a 105-107" wheelbase for probably the last 40 years. With crossovers eating the sedan market everything on the fringes has become that much more redundant.
- Luxury leases and the glut of CPO cars on the market haven't helped. Between the low rates and manufacturer incentives/subsidies, it's never been easier to get behind the wheel of something with a badge that makes you matter™. Most people are OK with buying a used car. For $25K, what sounds better... a mid grade Camry or a 5 series?
Personally, something like a top grade Civic sounds way more enticing to me than a mid grade Accord. All the C-segment needs is a little more room and a good bit more refinement, at least in higher trims. Access to bigger engines would help too... Civic with the 2.0T + 10AT would be a rocket, but not everyone wants to look like a 15 year old in the CTR.
The free market at work....
The sedan is dying a slow death. I'm willing to bet most car manufacturers will be carrying only one or two sedans in the near future!
What has the world come to? A future in which everyone is literally driving around in an SUVs and CUVs?
Yuck. How depressing and how boring.
I am not opposed to SUVs as I find a handful of them quite nice, mainly the Mazda CX-5, Mercedes GLC and Citroen DS7 Crossback. But if I don't do off-roading then I don't need a frigging SUV. Period. I just can't imagine buying an SUV and using it like a car. But that's just weird old me.
Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate. They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.
Quote from: veeman on March 29, 2018, 08:59:08 AM
Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate. They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.
My dad just bought an Accord Sport for like 21.5K and that is A LOT of car for that price. Strangely enough, they are not offering any finance incentives on the car which I think will get just as many people through the door, if not more.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 29, 2018, 06:14:24 AM
What has the world come to? A future in which everyone is literally driving around in an SUVs and CUVs?
Yuck. How depressing and how boring.
I am not opposed to SUVs as I find a handful of them quite nice, mainly the Mazda CX-5, Mercedes GLC and Citroen DS7 Crossback. But if I don't do off-roading then I don't need a frigging SUV. Period. I just can't imagine buying an SUV and using it like a car. But that's just weird old me.
Sedans and hatchbacks are, for the most part, every bit as boring as CUVs and SUVs. And no, people aren't buying CR-Vs or C4 Cactii to go off road. Crossovers are essentially tall hatchbacks/wagons.
My CR-V is a better vehicle for the bendy, twisty, hilly narrow roads here; it's sure-footed, nimble and the CVT is always in the perfect sweet-spot ratio.Very practical. The G37 is much less happy in this environment.
But for long journeys on wide open highways - I'll take the G.
Quote from: veeman on March 29, 2018, 08:59:08 AM
Even Honda is feeling the sedan hate. They have a relative glut of Accords and dealers want Honda corporate to start incentivizing them to move them off the lot.
That's less about the death of sedans and more that Toyota has better deals on the Camry. Same with CR-V vs. RAV4, though to less of an extreme.
Yeah, Honda hasn't really had any lease deals on the Accord.
I can respect that. Volume doesn't mean shit without profit and it seems like everyone is willing to give cars away just to retain market share. IT's a big race to the bottom.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 29, 2018, 11:04:14 AM
Sedans and hatchbacks are, for the most part, every bit as boring as CUVs and SUVs. And no, people aren't buying CR-Vs or C4 Cactii to go off road. Crossovers are essentially tall hatchbacks/wagons.
True, but there are also a handful of exciting hatchbacks just like there are some exciting SUVs.
Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.
This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.
My sister in law kept getting flat tires in her Elantra from pot holes. Her father changed the tires to run flats and she still had to keep getting them replaced. The Costco tire department, where she got the run flats, knew her by her first name she brought her car in so many times. Even though she was underwater and owed more for the car than the car was worth, she traded it in for a used Rogue. I told her I would get her car fixed for her on my dime. I told her the problem was the sport wheels the car came with and I would change out her wheels and get a wheel/tire combo that wouldn't be as prone to flats. My wife and mother in law nixed it. "She needs an SUV."
Quote from: cawimmer430 on March 30, 2018, 03:29:42 AM
True, but there are also a handful of exciting hatchbacks just like there are some exciting SUVs.
Which is why they can coexist in peace.
If anything, the only sedans and hatchbacks left will be the exciting ones, as those are the ones anyone will want to buy.
Quote from: veeman on March 30, 2018, 03:54:36 AM
Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.
This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.
I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 30, 2018, 05:15:08 AM
I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.
Heck, I would take a RWD pickemup truck with snow tires over an AWD CUV. :lol:
Quote from: veeman on March 30, 2018, 03:54:36 AM
Every single winter season, at least a few times at work and just out and about, I hear comments to the effect that someone can't get to work or someone needs to leave early from work because of the winter storm and that person doesn't have an SUV.
This is why sedans are failing to a large part. There's other reasons for sure but in the northern half of the U.S. there is a general feeling that these vehicles are suboptimal for winter driving. Dealerships keep reinforcing this idea to new buyers too. Many many drivers have no clue to disable to traction control when they're stuck in their driveway. They have no clue that AWD does nothing for braking.
My sister in law kept getting flat tires in her Elantra from pot holes. Her father changed the tires to run flats and she still had to keep getting them replaced. The Costco tire department, where she got the run flats, knew her by her first name she brought her car in so many times. Even though she was underwater and owed more for the car than the car was worth, she traded it in for a used Rogue. I told her I would get her car fixed for her on my dime. I told her the problem was the sport wheels the car came with and I would change out her wheels and get a wheel/tire combo that wouldn't be as prone to flats. My wife and mother in law nixed it. "She needs an SUV."
Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?
Quote from: MX793 on March 30, 2018, 07:52:23 AM
Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?
SHE NEEDS AN SUV.
Quote from: MX793 on March 30, 2018, 07:52:23 AM
Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?
Oh she's a bad driver for sure. Not confident, not great vision, impatient personality, etc etc. The truth is though that pot holed filled roads are not a great setting for low profile tires on 17 inch alloy rims especially given the shitty suspension of the car. There's barely any sidewall. They look good but it's a really bad wheel tire combo for winter driving on crappy pot hole filled roads. I was gonna replace them with 16 inch wheels on Michelins but everyone except me told her she needs an SUV. The truth of the matter is a Rogue is a better car for her.
An Ex girlfriend of mine owns a Rogue. I hate that car just cause of her lol. Besides, the average AWD system in the cute-ute segment is pretty crappy. Although I do wonder if maybe auto makers should start offering some wheel and tire packages that aren't all devoted to looks.
Quote from: MX793 on March 30, 2018, 07:52:23 AM
Maybe your SIL should learn to pay attention to the road and not plow into potholes at full speed?
Duh, but to the average person who doesn't give a shit about how they drive, their car, or anything pertaining to their car, it's much easier to just blame it on the car and get a "stronger" tool that can "deal with" her abuse.
I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how lots and lots of people think. Veeman's got a point.
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 30, 2018, 05:15:08 AM
I'd take an FWD sedan on decent snow tires over an AWD CUV on all seasons.
Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.
Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.
Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?
Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.
As I've said before, even the "shit" AWD systems are still good in winter for most drivers.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 30, 2018, 07:03:54 AM
Heck, I would take a RWD pickemup truck with snow tires over an AWD CUV. :lol:
/Morris scampers out to check whether tires on AWD CUV are lame or not.
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 30, 2018, 12:43:15 PM
Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.
Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.
Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?
Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.
That's the rub - managing two sets of tires is a pain in the arse - particularly if you don't have anywhere to store them.
Quote from: veeman on March 30, 2018, 08:40:29 AM
Oh she's a bad driver for sure. Not confident, not great vision, impatient personality, etc etc. The truth is though that pot holed filled roads are not a great setting for low profile tires on 17 inch alloy rims especially given the shitty suspension of the car. There's barely any sidewall. They look good but it's a really bad wheel tire combo for winter driving on crappy pot hole filled roads. I was gonna replace them with 16 inch wheels on Michelins but everyone except me told her she needs an SUV. The truth of the matter is a Rogue is a better car for her.
Nearly 20 years driving on crappy upstate NY roads, most of those in vehicles with 17+ inch wheels and 50 series or smaller rubber. Knock on wood, I've yet to have a pothole claim a tire.
Even with tall sidewalls, hammering into sharp edges potholes can damage a tire. Instead of immediately popping, it will just break radial belts instead, leading to potential blowouts later.
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 30, 2018, 12:43:15 PM
Keep in mind you're posting on a car forum which puts you in the 99.8th percentile WRT automotive knowledge.
Most of my friends who dont know shit about cars think AWD (no matter how shitty the system) is a substitute for snow tires. This is another reason why CUVs are taking off.
Operating under the assumption that AWD and snow tires are substitutes, why on earth wouldn't I spend the extra money on something that is capable year round without the need for swapping tires out once a year?
Honestly, if that was how it worked, I'd probably go for AWD and all seasons year round too.
I do FWD and all seasons in the winter...
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 30, 2018, 01:27:26 PM
/Morris scampers out to check whether tires on AWD CUV are lame or not.
They're Hankook Kinergy Mud & Snow.
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 30, 2018, 12:40:01 PM
Duh, but to the average person who doesn't give a shit about how they drive, their car, or anything pertaining to their car, it's much easier to just blame it on the car and get a "stronger" tool that can "deal with" her abuse.
I'm not saying it's correct, but that's how lots and lots of people think. Veeman's got a point.
:hesaid:
I have no use for snow tires on the JGC
My grandmother yesterday was telling me she wants to replace her 2007 Azera so she can get the latest safety features. She's mostly interested in a midsize sedan, but I also suggested the Nissan Rogue because the surround-view camera could be very helpful in her condo's parking garage. Her first reaction was "oh, I don't need an SUV." Protecting the midsize sedan from death.
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 30, 2018, 02:32:54 PM
They're Hankook Kinergy Mud & Snow.
Fucking Korean shit.... :fogey:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 30, 2018, 05:13:45 AM
Which is why they can coexist in peace.
If anything, the only sedans and hatchbacks left will be the exciting ones, as those are the ones anyone will want to buy.
Nope they'll be the cheap beater cars.
Quote from: MX793 on March 30, 2018, 01:55:43 PM
Even with tall sidewalls, hammering into sharp edges potholes can damage a tire. Instead of immediately popping, it will just break radial belts instead, leading to potential blowouts later.
Hmm, maybe that's what happened with Odyssey?... There were some serious gashes on the inside sidewall and the tire was "hopping" and bigtime steering shimmy..
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 31, 2018, 01:12:21 PM
Hmm, maybe that's what happened with Odyssey?... There were some serious gashes on the inside sidewall and the tire was "hopping" and bigtime steering shimmy..
Entirely possible. Did the sidewall damage look like splits/cracks or gouges?
Quote from: shp4man on March 31, 2018, 01:05:42 PM
Fucking Korean shit.... :fogey:
Yeah he's so better on some Firestones :pee:
Using fueleconomy.gov the difference in annual fuel cost between a current CRV and base automatic Civic is $300 assuming 15,000 miles driven per year. Between a CRV and base automatic Accord is $200.
The CR-V vs Accord is the more relevant comparison due to price. But yes the gap is just about closed.
GM may end up killing both the Sonic and the Impala. Same with Ford axing the Fiesta and Taurus.
Not surprised, but it seems like with these newfangled modular platforms, making cheap cars and variants should be at an all time low. Although a basic Escape/CR-V et al are remarkably thrifty for what they are, cost of entry is still high, IMO. I'd rather get a decently equipped Sonic for $16K, rather than be pushed into an Equinox for 23K. That's a lot of money.
Sad.
My BIGGEST problem - at least sedans and hatchbacks have a sembalance of affordability? I don't know anyone my age who can actually afford a decently equipped CUV.
72 month loans on CPO SUVs
Quote from: MrH on April 04, 2018, 01:20:00 PM
72 month loans on CPO SUVs
That made my heart hurt
Quote from: 2o6 on April 04, 2018, 01:31:24 PM
That made my heart hurt
It should. I'm as shocked as you are. I feel I make pretty good money, and I took out a 5 year loan on an SUV <$40k and I pay a huge amount every month. No way could I afford it fresh out of school.
Has to be loan length. Average is 67 months now, with 1/4 of all new loans between 73 and 84 months. 84 months!!! Can you imagine still paying off a 2012 model year car today? That's crazy.
Quote from: 2o6 on April 04, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
My BIGGEST problem - at least sedans and hatchbacks have a sembalance of affordability? I don't know anyone my age who can actually afford a decently equipped CUV.
There will still be the Cruze and Malibu, which should be dirt cheap with how they are moving. Especially now with the subprime market getting pushed out
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 04, 2018, 02:28:22 PM
There will still be the Cruze and Malibu, which should be dirt cheap with how they are moving. Especially now with the subprime market getting pushed out
I don't want one of those
Also, Ford will likely only have the Focus.
Focus looks promising
Quote from: MrH on April 04, 2018, 01:43:30 PM
It should. I'm as shocked as you are. I feel I make pretty good money, and I took out a 5 year loan on an SUV <$40k and I pay a huge amount every month. No way could I afford it fresh out of school.
Has to be loan length. Average is 67 months now, with 1/4 of all new loans between 73 and 84 months. 84 months!!! Can you imagine still paying off a 2012 model year car today? That's crazy.
Nobody's still paying off a 5+ year old car.
They've since traded up to a newer vehicle, rolling their old loan principle into the new one.
Quote from: MX793 on April 04, 2018, 04:57:21 PM
Nobody's still paying off a 5+ year old car.
My friend did this, except that he rolled over his old loan payment into a new leased vehicle. He didn't divulge specifics, but I can only imagine that its hideously ugly and he'll be screwed mightily when that lease is up.
They've since traded up to a newer vehicle, rolling their old loan principle into the new one.
Quote from: MX793 on April 04, 2018, 04:57:21 PM
Nobody's still paying off a 5+ year old car.
They've since traded up to a newer vehicle, rolling their old loan principle into the new one.
True. Which is even worse. I'm waiting for this bubble to pop and 2-3 year old car values drop big time.
Used car prices have changed fundamentally since the recession. Plus new car sales are set to decline, which I'm pretty sure will put even more upward pressure on 2-3 used car prices. Only thing I see changing that are big upward interest rate moves or a recession.
Yeah I'm not so sure it's a bubble. Viewing car ownership as entailing a perpetual monthly payment has been the norm more or less our entire lives (for most of us here), I don't see that changing.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 31, 2018, 01:12:21 PM
Hmm, maybe that's what happened with Odyssey?... There were some serious gashes on the inside sidewall and the tire was "hopping" and bigtime steering shimmy..
Quote from: MX793 on March 31, 2018, 01:50:41 PM
Entirely possible. Did the sidewall damage look like splits/cracks or gouges?
Yup. And the tires were not that old nor abused. The guy said they looked dry-rotted. Smaller cracks with big chunks missing.
Quote from: MrH on April 05, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
True. Which is even worse. I'm waiting for this bubble to pop and 2-3 year old car values drop big time.
Maybe someday. Better never though. I used to pay $2k for an ok car with 90k miles in the last 90s. Then it was $3k was an ok entry car.
Nowadays it's been much more expensive to get a used car.
The steadily disappearing American car
- Sedans started disappearing from the U.S. car market in 2008.
- Fueling the trend are low gas prices, a stronger economy and dramatic improvements in the design of SUVs and trucks.
After a century of ferrying millions of daily commuters and taking countless family road trips, simple passenger cars are disappearing from American life, and they may not come back.
Detroit's Big Three automakers — Chrysler, Ford and General Motors — pioneered the mass production of the car, but in just four years, all three may be known to Americans simply as truck and SUV makers, with only a stray sedan for sale.
The automotive industry in America is making what many observers think is an irrevocable shift toward pickup trucks, sport utility vehicles and crossovers. While carmakers are producing sedans and sports cars that are safer, faster and more comfortable than ever, customers continue to flock to taller vehicles with features cars simply cannot offer.
More... https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/06/the-steadily-disappearing-american-car.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/06/the-steadily-disappearing-american-car.html)
Damn.... Daewoo troubles prompting rumors GM will kill the Spark too
I feel like when gas spikes used small cars are gonna go for a fortune as there won't be any new ones to buy....
Lol saw a commercial for the "rebirth of a legend"- the new Eclipse cross.
It's a CUV. :confused:
The Eclipse did something very bad in a past life, and was reborn in a baser form in order to atone for its sins.
Quote from: Laconian on April 11, 2018, 05:40:57 PM
The Eclipse did something very bad in a past life, and was reborn in a baser form in order to atone for its sins.
You might be on to something:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Mitsubishi_Eclipse_GT_V6_%282006%29.jpg)
Quote from: Morris Minor on March 28, 2018, 11:31:05 AM
Read a piece (sorry, can't link - can't remember where is was :( ) speculating that some manufacturers are considering discontinuing sales of traditional 3-box sedans in the US. Exceptions cited were Toyota & Honda, whose mainstream sedans crush the rest. Possible strategies might be to introduce hatchback/liftbacks, that have some of the utility of SUVs but still with sedan goodness.
But D-Segment-sized hatchbacks are alien to most Americans - so I dunno. But it's plausible that Ford say, could ditch the Fusion in the US & try the liftback Mondeo, or even the estate version.
Thoughts?
I've heard in the not so distant future, Ford will be discontinuing all cars except except the Focus and the Mustang. Two SUVs will be kept along with all of their truck line.
Also, there's this:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/report-ford-taurus-fiesta-chevy-sonic-impala-put-out-pasture
Quote from: Klackamas on April 25, 2018, 07:13:19 PM
I've heard in the not so distant future, Ford will be discontinuing all cars except except the Focus and the Mustang. Two SUVs will be kept along with all of their truck line.
Also, there's this:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/report-ford-taurus-fiesta-chevy-sonic-impala-put-out-pasture
Yeah posted that (accidentally) in the fastlane thread. Mustang will be the only car. The Focus will be a CUV.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 25, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
Yeah posted that (accidentally) in the fastlane thread. Mustang will be the only car. The Focus will be a CUV.
But the Focus CUV = Escape!
Quote from: 2o6 on April 25, 2018, 07:20:48 PM
But the Focus CUV = Escape!
No, that's the Focus SUV.
Quote from: Rockraven on April 25, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
Yeah posted that (accidentally) in the fastlane thread. Mustang will be the only car. The Focus will be a CUV.
It's just a Focus with cladding. Even Ford says it will have two non-SUVs in the lineup, including that one. If a car company isn't even going to pretend something is an SUV, it's REALLY not an SUV.
Quote from: ifcar on April 25, 2018, 08:08:07 PM
It's just a Focus with cladding. Even Ford says it will have two non-SUVs in the lineup, including that one. If a car company isn't even going to pretend something is an SUV, it's REALLY not an SUV.
They should just put cladding on their cars and call them SUVs. The stupid public will buy them.
Sporty Cougs & I have the last Infiniti sedans that still had elan
I'm happy they have the balls to do this. For so long the american companies had the ball and chain of their contracts and structure set up so decisions like this couldn't or wouldn't be made.
Its a bold strategy Ford, lets see if it pays off for em
This is depressing.
NOTHING PERSONAL, JUST BUSINESS
It is kind of a bummer because Ford's sedans are every bit as good (if not better) than much of the competition. The Focus is leaps and bounds better than the Sentra, but the Sentra is outselling it this year. Squeezed by UAW legacy costs on the bottom and weak customer demand on top... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do
Some of this is an overall Ford problem though. Their mainstream crossovers are flat (Edge/Explorer) or also in sales decline (Escape). They are all overdue for major redesigns so hopefully that comes soon. But I salute Ford for having the balls to make this call. If people want sedans again Ford will build them.
It's a bummer because every year we have yet more entitled FOG boomers driving fucking Mack truck SUVs with no sightlines and it gets more and more unsafe to share the road with them.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 26, 2018, 06:15:30 AM
NOTHING PERSONAL, JUST BUSINESS
It is kind of a bummer because Ford's sedans are every bit as good (if not better) than much of the competition. The Focus is leaps and bounds better than the Sentra, but the Sentra is outselling it this year. Squeezed by UAW legacy costs on the bottom and weak customer demand on top... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do
Some of this is an overall Ford problem though. Their mainstream crossovers are flat (Edge/Explorer) or also in sales decline (Escape). They are all overdue for major redesigns so hopefully that comes soon. But I salute Ford for having the balls to make this call. If people want sedans again Ford will build them.
Do you know what the spread on Sentra consumer/fleet sales is? Seems like every rental agency I've ever been to is overflowing with Sentras/Altimas.
Quote from: Submariner on April 26, 2018, 01:50:57 PM
Do you know what the spread on Sentra consumer/fleet sales is? Seems like every rental agency I've ever been to is overflowing with Sentras/Altimas.
I don't have a per model breakdown, but in 2016 fleet sales accounted for 28% of Nissan's volume
It becomes a death spiral, because if all you know about Nissan is the Sentra, you will never buy one.
We had a bunch of visitors in today from Europe and Japan and they were in Nissan's across the board. One group of them was in a Nissan SUV (fairly large one at that).
I think locally Nissan and Hyundai have mostly taken over the rental fleet business from GM/Chrysler.
Quote from: Laconian on April 26, 2018, 11:18:20 AM
It's a bummer because every year we have yet more entitled FOG boomers driving fucking Mack truck SUVs with no sightlines and it gets more and more unsafe to share the road with them.
Just wait until I get my Mack, Miata boi.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on April 26, 2018, 02:44:48 PM
We had a bunch of visitors in today from Europe and Japan and they were in Nissan's across the board. One group of them was in a Nissan SUV (fairly large one at that).
I think locally Nissan and Hyundai have mostly taken over the rental fleet business from GM/Chrysler.
Nissan should buy Enterprise.
Quote from: Rich on April 25, 2018, 11:26:57 PM
I'm happy they have the balls to do this. For so long the american companies had the ball and chain of their contracts and structure set up so decisions like this couldn't or wouldn't be made.
Its a bold strategy Ford, lets see if it pays off for em
It's the trucks, and Americans are legit psychos when it comes to trucks, eschewing financial and societal decency, to own and drive such archaic, over priced hunks of whatever. This irrationality covers up a lot of the UAW sin.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 28, 2018, 09:21:32 AM
It's the trucks, and Americans are legit psychos when it comes to trucks, eschewing financial and societal decency, to own and drive such archaic, over priced hunks of whatever. This irrationality covers up a lot of the UAW sin.
Amen. Guys have to be all alpha and junk.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 28, 2018, 09:21:32 AM
It's the trucks, and Americans are legit psychos when it comes to trucks, eschewing financial and societal decency, to own and drive such archaic, over priced hunks of whatever. This irrationality covers up a lot of the UAW sin.
:clap:
Wish I had seen this before I purchased a mainstream sedan.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/this-is-the-ford-focus-active-thats-coming-to-the-us
It looks good and will sell well I think.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 26, 2018, 06:15:30 AM
NOTHING PERSONAL, JUST BUSINESS
It is kind of a bummer because Ford's sedans are every bit as good (if not better) than much of the competition. The Focus is leaps and bounds better than the Sentra, but the Sentra is outselling it this year. Squeezed by UAW legacy costs on the bottom and weak customer demand on top... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do
Some of this is an overall Ford problem though. Their mainstream crossovers are flat (Edge/Explorer) or also in sales decline (Escape). They are all overdue for major redesigns so hopefully that comes soon. But I salute Ford for having the balls to make this call. If people want sedans again Ford will build them.
Exactly - they're good sedans - nothing wrong with the. It is a bummer.
Salesman at the place that sold us the CR-V told me their lot is packed with Accords, which are GREAT sedans. They sell a respectable number, but nothing close to the levels of the CUVs.
I wish Ford would keep the Fusion but I understand why they are not. While they sell a decent number (I think roughly half the number of Camrys per year), a lot of those are fleet which depresses residuals. For the amount of coin they need to continually update and compete with Camcords, they're better off spending that coin to continually update the Escape/Edge/Explorer which are growing markets.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 28, 2018, 09:21:32 AM
It's the trucks, and Americans are legit psychos when it comes to trucks, eschewing financial and societal decency, to own and drive such archaic, over priced hunks of whatever.
Amen! They ratchet up the aggression even higher with every generation. Eventually trucks are going to come with scythes attached to the wheels and the rear windshield factory-occluded with hundreds of vinyl stickers of AR-15s.
Quote from: Onslaught on April 29, 2018, 04:51:21 AM
Wish I had seen this before I purchased a mainstream sedan.
Why? You are going to be in that 6 for the next 15 years. As long as Mazda stays in business (which the CX-5/9 and hopefully a 7 will all but ensure) you should be skraight.
Quote from: Morris Minor on April 29, 2018, 09:03:00 AM
Exactly - they're good sedans - nothing wrong with the. It is a bummer.
Salesman at the place that sold us the CR-V told me their lot is packed with Accords, which are GREAT sedans. They sell a respectable number, but nothing close to the levels of the CUVs.
My boss just bought an Accord EX 2.0T. He's really happy with it, but I think if the new RDX were available he would have gone that way. I get the sense that the Accord may be his last sedan. It really is a good car- a bit too big for my tastes personally though.
I was kind of like "eh whatever, market goes where it goes" but now I'm a little scared. I shouldn't have any problems with my next car, but I don't know what the market is going to be like in 10 years. Things are accelerating faster than I anticipated.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 29, 2018, 05:31:58 PM
Why? You are going to be in that 6 for the next 15 years. As long as Mazda stays in business (which the CX-5/9 and hopefully a 7 will all but ensure) you should be skraight.
My boss just bought an Accord EX 2.0T. He's really happy with it, but I think if the new RDX were available he would have gone that way. I get the sense that the Accord may be his last sedan. It really is a good car- a bit too big for my tastes personally though.
I was kind of like "eh whatever, market goes where it goes" but now I'm a little scared. I shouldn't have any problems with my next car, but I don't know what the market is going to be like in 10 years. Things are accelerating faster than I anticipated.
10 years or so. Then I'll get another car/sedan.
I'm amazed at how quickly this is happening. There's a row of abut 30 parking spaces by the gym. This morning: one was empty, two were occupied by sedans, the rest were CUVs & SUVs
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 02, 2018, 08:32:20 AM
I'm amazed at how quickly this is happening. There's a row of abut 30 parking spaces by the gym. This morning: one was empty, two were occupied by sedans, the rest were CUVs & SUVs
I counted vehicles in a parking lot the other night when we were out walking. 14 SUV/CUV, 3 cars, 4 pickups.
It was probably a slow pickup truck evening....
Equinoxes are slowly replacing Impalas as one of my most popular vehicles for detailing, it seems. I used to joke "I could detail an Impala with my eyes closed," but that's definitely expanded to Equinoxes as well.
Just did a brand new (13k miles) one today. Feels more cramped than previous ones, but still nice. It had auto-stop/start, which I only really noticed when I tried to notice. Not sure if I've driven a vehicle with that feature, and if I have, it was long ago.
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 02, 2018, 07:11:00 PM
Equinoxes are slowly replacing Impalas as one of my most popular vehicles for detailing, it seems. I used to joke "I could detail an Impala with my eyes closed," but that's definitely expanded to Equinoxes as well.
Just did a brand new (13k miles) one today. Feels more cramped than previous ones, but still nice. It had auto-stop/start, which I only really noticed when I tried to notice. Not sure if I've driven a vehicle with that feature, and if I have, it was long ago.
I rode several different Uber vehicles in Boston. By far my favorite, from a passenger angle, was a Traverse - Equinox's bigger brother: easy to get in & out of, plenty of room vs the sedans
It seemed like the driver (who also did Lyft) had chosen it very intelligently: not too expensive, low upkeep costs, UberXL-eligible etc.
Yeah, the second row of the Traverse is pretty spacious. Nice vehicles.
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 09, 2018, 05:29:33 AM
I rode several different Uber vehicles in Boston. By far my favorite, from a passenger angle, was a Traverse - Equinox's bigger brother: easy to get in & out of, plenty of room vs the sedans
It seemed like the driver (who also did Lyft) had chosen it very intelligently: not too expensive, low upkeep costs, UberXL-eligible etc.
Poor fuel costs tho
I feel like that post recession stretch has inoculated Americans to high fuel costs.
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 09, 2018, 05:58:57 AM
Yeah, the second row of the Traverse is pretty spacious. Nice vehicles.
I just saw a commercial for one and they seem massive - basically the same as a Tahoe.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 09, 2018, 10:00:22 AM
I just saw a commercial for one and they seem massive - basically the same as a Tahoe.
They are large. I put them in my middle tier for detail pricing this year, along with Tahoe, Explorer, minivans, etc.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 09, 2018, 09:38:30 AM
I feel like that post recession stretch has inoculated Americans to high fuel costs.
You are right. People buy for the now.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 09, 2018, 09:38:30 AM
I feel like that post recession stretch has inoculated Americans to high fuel costs.
Americans gave up saving for the future years ago. Median household savings is $5,000.
Quote from: Laconian on May 09, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
Americans gave up saving for the future years ago. Median household savings is $5,000.
Shit, I graduated a couple of months ago and I think I'm almost to the median already.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 09, 2018, 11:36:28 AM
Shit, I graduated a couple of months ago and I think I'm almost to the median already.
:rockon:
The oil supply situation has improved over recent years but any number of factors can cause the price of gas to jump. It was a factor in my deciding to go with the CR-V - it's kind of nice to have a 28mpg car that uses regular-grade vs the Infiniti that gulps premium @ around 20mpg.
Quote from: Laconian on May 09, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
Americans gave up saving for the future years ago. Median household savings is $5,000.
Are loan balances (e.g. mortgages) netted out against that? I hope so, otherwise that's pretty catastrophic
Quote from: TBR on May 10, 2018, 01:33:21 AM
Are loan balances (e.g. mortgages) netted out against that? I hope so, otherwise that's pretty catastrophic
Savings, not net worth. I believe that figure comes from a survey asking people how much money they have in savings or retirement accounts.
EDIT: Found another report from the Federal reserve. MEDIAN savings account balance was just over $5K in 2017. Average was actually around $33K, so a wealthier minority is pretty heavily skewing the average upwards. The surveys actually indicate things are worse, with savings for many at under $2K.
Quote from: TBR on May 10, 2018, 01:33:21 AM
Are loan balances (e.g. mortgages) netted out against that? I hope so, otherwise that's pretty catastrophic
No, they aren't.
Quote from: giant_mtb on May 09, 2018, 05:58:57 AM
Yeah, the second row of the Traverse is pretty spacious. Nice vehicles.
Real People
TM love it.